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Looks like the NT has pulled the planning application for the biggest car park in the Peak District
https://twitter.com/WalkRideGM/status/1752318269472596223
Great news. I read the objection letter from CPRE and it's a belter. Interesting comments from the PDNPA Transport Policy Planner too - an additional travel distance by visitors cars of 98000km per annum and an increase in carbon emissions of 27,126kg.
Generally the NT seem to (try to) do the right thing more often than not, but this was a colossal mis-step and I don’t think they appreciated the backlash it was going to provoke.
This is good news. They must now concentrate on encouraging people into cycling, walking and using public transport, to all their sites, not just Lyme park.
They must now concentrate on encouraging people into cycling, walking and using public transport, to all their sites, not just Lyme park.
I think this is an unfair stick to be beating NT with. There's little stopping people doing any of those things into Lyme, and what there is is because of stuff NT have no control over. People drive because they're lazy, not because NT are making it difficult to do anything else.
People drive because they’re lazy, not because NT are making it difficult to do anything else.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. In the case of Lyme Park in particular, it sitting right on the A6 isn't a major incentive for, say, families to visit by bike. Short of a dramatic wholesale relocation of the whole thing to somewhere more safely accessible, I'm not sure what they can do.
Free coffee and cake for cyclists might be a good call though 🙂
Free coffee and cake for cyclists might be a good call though 🙂
You get a 10% discount. 😉
Agree that it's not hugely cycle friendly. If you come along the horribly unfriendly A6 there's then a steep* climb up to the house being close passed by the hordes arriving in their SUVs.
If you come in from any other direction there are various steep bumpy rutted muddy tracks which are also beyond a lot of leisure cyclists.
*it's steep for a lot of leisure cyclists, OK?!
You get a 10% discount. 😉
Didn't know that - how does that work?
how does that work?
It's on their website:
"Journey to Lyme via bus, train or bike and you can claim a 10% discount on your cafe order"
No idea how it works in practice... 🤷🏻♂️
I hate the national trust with a passion.
They take somewhere nice build a massive carpark and cafe, then they fill it with dog walkers until its trashed and put up no cycling signs.
I missed it. What were the plans for the car park?
Lyme Park is a difficult one when it comes to access. It is walkable from Disley station or the bus but it's not particularly easy for those will young families, the less mobile or people who just want to experience the countryside from the boot of their own car. As has been said ... cycling is do-able but again isn't great for those with kids, etc. Car parking fills up really quickly on busy day and is expensive if you're not an NT member.
I hate the national trust with a passion.
They take somewhere nice build a massive carpark and cafe, then they fill it with dog walkers until its trashed and put up no cycling signs.
I know exactly what you mean.
But..... I've had some really pleasant afternoons at NT properties.
I hate the national trust with a passion.
Of course, commercialising it to make it a viable option to maintain an accessible history can spoil the location with the baggage of tourism but perhaps beats the alternative.....
What were the plans for the car park?
Move the current car park from where it is to up onto the big field by the Knott and return the current car park to being the natural floodland/meadow that it's meant to be, therefore helping to prevent downstream flooding.
Despite the 'building the biggest car park in the Peak District' hand-wringing, there were going to be no more car parking spaces than there currently are, and they were going to be ones that didn't flood and prevented other parts of the park from flooding
Despite the ‘building the biggest car park in the Peak District’ hand-wringing, there were going to be no more car parking spaces than there currently are, and they were going to be ones that didn’t flood and prevented other parts of the park from flooding
And that new car park location would destroy one of the nice quiet areas of the park. It seems a major part of the objections was NTs platitudes regarding alternative travel. Sort of "yes we're all for it but can't think of any decent plans".
It seems a major part of the objections was NTs platitudes regarding alternative travel. Sort of “yes we’re all for it but can’t think of any decent plans”.
NT:
We gave you a wheel bender bike rack at the arse end of the car park as far from the house as possible, what more could we have done?!
And no, you can't ride there, please get off and push.
Honestly, you cyclists are so ungrateful.
Apparently you get the 10% discount by showing the cafe staff your bike helmet. Bike unfriendliness seems to be a bit location dependent - eg. Blickling better than some?
There’s a thing in the NT mag where one of the directors took a sabbatical and visited all their properties by bike. I don’t think he was overwhelmed by how easy this was so things might be changing.
And that new car park location would destroy one of the nice quiet areas of the park.
I mean, maybe, but there's hardly a lack of quiet areas of the park. Everywhere bar the house, Cage and cafe is quiet. And the proposed area is 'just' a grass field, so not 'that' ecologically diverse. Allowing the current car park to revert to a flood meadow would create a much more ecologically diverse area.
And yes, they probably could do more to encourage people to get there by other means, but you could increase the number of those people by a factor of ten and they would still only be a tiny part of visitor numbers and most would still be arriving by car. The current car park is not fit for purpose; it floods and it's over a culverted stream which, because it is culverted, causes flooding further down (which is why the kiddies adventure play area was shut for so long, for example).
I hate the national trust with a passion.
That seems a bit disproportionate. I don't think they're hateful, I think they do things that pander to a vocal minority of their membership to the detriment of everyone else, but I understand why they do it. Their commitment to cycling also seems to me along the lines of "Yes, yes, come in, but quickly, before that group of old farts see you, don't make a fuss, hide your bike"
There was a massive article in the magazine about a member of the marketing team of NT cycling to all the sites, I can imagine that it caused a "not nil" number of aneurysms amongst the red trouser/head scarf set...
I mean, maybe, but there’s hardly a lack of quiet areas of the park. Everywhere bar the house, Cage and cafe is quiet. And the proposed area is ‘just’ a grass field, so not ‘that’ ecologically diverse. Allowing the current car park to revert to a flood meadow would create a much more ecologically diverse area.
I think the main complaint was that it would have been visible from miles around plus it would have resulted in a much longer drive to get from the gate to the car park - which in turn makes the area in front of the house more dangerous as traffic goes past it and up the hill.
Something needs to be done yes. But that something could be park and ride, a shuttle bus from Disley station, more but smaller car parks spread out a bit, much more provision for active travel and more incentive to use it...
Doesn't always have to pander to the car driver. Maybe this could be a bit of a litmus test for NT in terms of how they deal with the impending threats to their properties from climate change cos flooding is going to get more frequent and more severe. Building a bigger car park on higher ground doesn't solve those issues.
Something needs to be done yes.
Like, open the gate at Haresteads Farm to cyclists so you could cycle up/down from Poynton? Honestly there's so much basic stuff that they could do before "building any more car parks" is the correct answer. But it's also a function of NT's popularity I guess. I was up at Gibson Mill at Hebden Bridge last weekend, and by 11.00am it was a 1/4 mile tail-back to get into an already full CP.
It's a tough one this because the A6 is an awful road, but I'm not sure the topography East and West lends itself to good cycling access for the leisure cyclist or families. I do loops that include Lyme (on quiet days) from Bowstones and Lyme Road but some of these are cheeky and that tall kissing gate near the Knott is a right PITA with a 29er.
There's a lot of cycling traffic on the Middlewood Way and Macclesfield Canal and improving cycling access from these to the park could only be a good thing, but a lot of the signs say footpath only and I'm a little confused what is legitimate access routes or not for cyclists. I can only assume the landowners around Lyme Park try and discourage further traffic?
I'm a 20 min drive away from Lyme Park, and would rather take my toddler there in the bike trailer than car, but other than the main gate (and the dreaded A6) there's not a reasonable way to get in so I can't.
I'm not 100% sure where the proposed car-park would have gone and I'm not au-fait with the names but one thing I notice about Lyme Park when I'm there is that the views are great and it really can feel like you're out in the middle of nowhere at some points despite in reality being 15mins walk away from the cafe and the car-park/A6 etc.
So, it would have been a shame if that, um, "vibe" was ruined by having the cars made visible.
I’m not 100% sure where the proposed car-park would have gone and I’m not au-fait with the names but one thing I notice about Lyme Park
The old petition site is about the only place where the plans are easily viewable (wonder why that might be...?!) although if you delve deeply enough into the planning application, everything is there too.
https://www.change.org/p/oppose-national-trust-lyme-car-park-relocation-and-expansion-plans
To give you an idea of location, the access from the A6 is top right of that image - it's a confusing and not particularly clear diagram but the new parking would have been [url= https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map?x=395628&y=382393&z=115&sv=395628,382393&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map&searchp=ids&dn=849&ax=395628&ay=382393&lm=0 ]in this sort of area[/url]
As a member of many other 'charitable organisations'(eg RSPB) the NT seems to be falling behind with the issue of changing the way that punters visit.
I do use a car to take my elderly mother to another nearby site at Styal Mill, but on other visits I've cycled, not many know that there is a BW through this estate. Again at the Styal Mill site visitors aren't encouraged to cycle, walk (like Disley there is a nearby train station) or use public transport.
Last year I was talking to a ranger about the re siting of the car park at Lyme park and she didn't seem open to any other ideas.
So yes I think the NT should be a bit more responsible in encouraging fewer visits by car.
Edit: in the summer evenings when visiting for a picnic, we've witnessed really bad parking (in an area when it says NO PARKING KEEP GATEWAY CLEAR) and bad drunken behaviour by louts who don't care about churning grassed areas in their cars.
On a good note when it's really quiet (usually in bad weather) there is a lot of great wildlife and birds to spot.
The old petition site is about the only place where the plans are easily viewable
It's all here in the planning application.
And the proposed area is ‘just’ a grass field, so not ‘that’ ecologically diverse.
True but it's also a popular area for families to go with kids to run around, roll down the hills, etc.
The current car park is not fit for purpose; it floods and it’s over a culverted stream which, because it is culverted, causes flooding further down
As I understand it the flooding is largely due to upstream conditions - runoff from the moors, silted up lakes, etc. and since the major flooding in 2019 measures are being put in place to ameliorate the issue.
Like, open the gate at Haresteads Farm to cyclists so you could cycle up/down from Poynton?
There's substantial track from the canal near Middlecale Farm which would make a nice approach by bike.
Unless you are reasonably fit, you aren't easily getting to Lyme Park on a bike. As has been said, the A6 is horrible, and the main drive is all uphill. Coming in from East Gate or West Gate is beyond most recreational cyclists - I love the West Gate climb, shame the path down to East Gate was sanitised. Gone are the days of descending to Eastgate, with ice tyres passing the pedestrians slipping and sliding on the ice.
I could only see folk complaining about the walk from the proposed car park, and the additional traffic. The land up their does get used for overflow in summer, and it's a bloody nightmare cycling through when you've got all the extra traffic up towards 'the knott'.
> I do use a car to take my elderly mother to another nearby site at Styal Mill, but on other visits I’ve cycled,
Let's be sensible - we're talking here on a cycling forum where bikes are considered an acceptable form of transport where a visit to an NT property is a means to an end rather than the end itself.
In the wider world I imagine for a fair proportion of visitors to NT locations, cycling is not an option just due to the distances from their home ... particularly for NT Members.
Then get to the reality that the day out for most people is being at the NT site rather than the journey to/from. The impracticalities of a couple of hours cycling journey (assuming they have maintained, rideable bikes) with kids, pets, older family members, getting to the intended location as a sweaty or rained on mess before they can actually start their intended day out just really isn't a viable consideration.
Whilst NT and the likes can actively promote the use of cycles as part of a drive for active living (and personally I think NT are pretty good at that), the reality is that it will never be a realistic mode of transport for their customers whilst it isn't common in the world outside of the boundaries of their properties.
Their focus is to maintain Britain's historical buildings.
As a member of many other ‘charitable organisations'(eg RSPB) the NT seems to be falling behind with the issue of changing the way that punters visit.
And also the Co-op, whose commitment to helping people make lower carbon choices don’t extend to how they get to the shop in the first place.
As has been said above - one challenge at Lyme is that the only strictly legal access point by cycle is from the A6, at all other entry points the official legal status of the path/track outside the Park boundary is only footpath 🙁
There have been discussions over many years with Cheshire East Council about how these could be changed, and would need consent from the landowner, but nothing (as yet) has happened 🙁
at all other entry points the official legal status of the path/track outside the Park boundary is only footpath
Another irony of the English RoW laws, as all of those entry points, pretty much, are literally the old road/lanes into the park.
As has been said above – one challenge at Lyme is that the only strictly legal access point by cycle is from the A6, at all other entry points the official legal status of the path/track outside the Park boundary is only footpath 🙁
No you can get in on most of the gravel tracks with the exception of the Gritstone Trail (ironically the easiest to ride but which is technically FP in spite of the farmer routinely driving his quad bike along it...).
The problem is that none of those paths are easy for the average recreational rider and they're virtually impassable on anything less than a gravel bike (so that cuts out the options for tourers or roadies). And many of them have narrow gates which further restricts things like cargo bikes, adapted bikes etc.
Lyme Park did used to be a bit more militantly anti-cyclist but thankfully the No Cycling signs have (mostly) been replaced by signs allowing cycling but requesting that you stick to the gravel tracks.
The problem is that none of those paths are easy for the average recreational rider and they’re virtually impassable on anything less than a gravel bike (so that cuts out the options for tourers or roadies). And many of them have narrow gates which further restricts things like cargo bikes, adapted bikes etc.
I rode an event a few years ago, and looking at the Strava of it, we came back into the park through Haze Bank Wood and past The Knott. I was on a full on race bike and don't remember that being particularly difficult.
I rode an event a few years ago, and looking at the Strava of it, we came back into the park through Haze Bank Wood and past The Knott. I was on a full on race bike and don’t remember that being particularly difficult.
Yeah, that's the West Park Gate entrance, it's definitely a track rather than a road but I've picked my way up there on a 25c roady, and it's definitely doable on a tourer and a 'family/lesiure' cyclist would be pushing up some of it anyway, whatever they were on, as it's a decent climb.
Same goes for the East Lodge/Gritstone entrance, the surface is similar but it's a good notch steeper.
There’s substantial track from the canal near Middlecale Farm which
woulddoes make a nice approach by bike.
Just ride it, many do, including me. No one cares.
many of them have narrow gates which further restricts things like cargo bikes, adapted bikes etc.
The restricted gates are nuts - we have a friend who lives in Disley and would happily walk in with her little boy via East Lodge, but she can't get his buggy through the gates...