LWB van recommendations. Reliability, serviceability. NOT for a conversation

When I was looking for a big van I was looking at the Sprinter, Iveco Daily and Ducato/Relay/Boxer. I was however looking for something to convert.

Sprinters have a fairly reliable engine but are prone to rust. Great if you're hammering the Autobahn all day, everyday and it's on a lease. Also quite narrow chassis. The dash on the newer ones are not to my taste.

Iveco has a solid engine, galvanised body. However, it has relatively little payload due to the H frame and it's even narrower than the Sprinter. I had one at work and found the cab to be very cramped. If you're tall it might be an issue getting the chair far enough away from the wheel.

Relay and Boxer are essentially the same. Their engines rev higher than the Ducato's Multijet (which is shared with the Iveco).
Ducato engine is supposedly more reliable and frugal. Parts for these vans are relatively cheap as there are so many of them around and lots of shared components. Only difference between the three is the engine. The width is greater than both the Iveco and Sprinter (it's the main reason we went with the Ducato as ours is converted and the bed is across the back with garage beneath).

Did consider the Transit but they're not as common in Germany. Renault/Nissan didn't even get a look in.

As above, I've owned a Mk7 Transit and it was okay but rusted to death. Some absolute shit design/manufacturing issues. I wouldn't have another.
We run an 11plate Ducato at work and it's been bulletproof despite being absolutely abused, trim/internal handles are flimsy though. Galvanized so don't rust like a Transit. Iveco engine is better than Ford/PSA Relay/Boxer engine.

Maybe take a look at MAN, they are a re-badged VW. Might even be a few deals about.

Just tidying up a LWB Vivaro B, 10 years old and in good nick. Spares are cheap and plentiful, I'd offer it but it's a bus version so too many windows.

I have a lwb vivario. Not big enough, I know they are lwb but they are a mid sized lwb which is the same as a full size van swb if you know what I mean! Mine although good for size Max's out @2t trailer.

Looks like ducato seems the best. Had one 10 years ago but it had a rust problem.

For towing, you ideally want something with rear wheel drive, which limits you to Transits, Dailys or Sprinters, or there are some RWD Renault Master's about, but they are very rare.
I wouldn't consider a Crafter, as despite being a Sprinter body and running gear, the VW engines are rubbish.

Big issue with Transits and Sprinters is rust, but if you get one in good condition and treat it with some decent underbody treatment, they'll be fine.
Iveco's are heavy vans, and pretty horrendous to do any major work on compared with other vans. The bodies also rust, although not quite as quick as Mercs and Fords.

Most vans have common issues, and I could list lots of problems that could put you off any van.

Personally, if you want newish, Ford is hard to beat in terms of reliability and part pricing.
Merc would win if you want new with the best backup, but Merc parts are also reasonably priced.
French/Italian only win on being cheap to buy, and the bodies not falling apart with rust, although the newer ones aren't as corrosion resistant as older ones. I've seen recent Trafics/Vivaro-Bs with comparable underbody rust to Transits lately, so they obviously reduced galvanising on them. Reliability wise they're OK'ish, but they don't handle much abuse, either mechanically or cosmetically.
VW you only buy because you want the badge. They're probably some of the least reliable vehicles we see just now.

Aren't the VW Crafter and MAN variant just Sprinter bodies (and rust problems) with the 2.0l VW engine that you'll find in just about every VW /Seat/Skoda?

Reliability wise they’re OK’ish, but they don’t handle much abuse, either mechanically or cosmetically.

Are we talking Vivaro/Traffic or Ducato/Relay?

Aren’t the VW Crafter and MAN variant just Sprinter bodies

the old crafter was a sprinter with a vw engine compromised by being managed by a merc ECU making diagnostics problematic

the new crafter is all Vw - the MAN version is just a badge and a dealership network. It’s not related to the sprinter at all

No idea on towing. But my 2017 Ducato that I have owned from new has been faultless for 105,000 miles.
No breakdowns, nothing other than services etc...
The 2.3 150bhp pulls well. I would buy one again.

Aren’t the VW Crafter and MAN variant just Sprinter bodies (and rust problems) with the 2.0l VW engine that you’ll find in just about every VW /Seat/Skoda?

Depends on the model.
2.0 often goes bang, as it's worked far harder in the big vans.
The older ones used a variety of VW engines, but they were all poor reliability and refinement wise compared with the Merc engines.
It's same story with the Renault 1.6 that they took from their cars and stuck in the Trafic/Vivaro. Was fairly reliable in a sub 2000kg car, but stick it in a van that weighs that empty and it's not a good combination for reliability.

Are we talking Vivaro/Traffic or Ducato/Relay?

All.

Iveco excellent for towing (mine can tow 3.5t)

However, most diagnostic readers just output double dutch, to read the true fault codes you need Iveco Easy or do some proper research to find a compatible reader.

On the other hand, I'm on my second Iveco and in twelve years I've never needed get the codes read...

Maintenance wise I've not had a problem working on it, everything is just a bit heavier (and hnnnnggggg-tighter) than a tin foil Transit 🙂

A good code reader will be your most essential tool on any recent Iveco, and it's further compounded by needed SGW (Secure Gateway Access) to do anything beyond a basic code read. And I'm very unconvinced by the amount of rattling the latest engines make.

Biggest issue with Iveco's is the engine is shoe horned in between the chassis rails/body, with no clearance behind the radiator. If you need to do anything major, they're just not nice to work on. You can pretty much guarantee you'll need to strip the front end off, then you're either shoe horned between the engine and chassis rails, or engine and body/bulkhead.
And if you want to drop the sump, you need to take a cross-member out, which on anything more than a few years old, is likely to be a challenge getting the bolts out.
But then, there are people who actually like working on them...
I know I don't, as like to keep the skin on my knuckles and arms!

Depends on the model.
2.0 often goes bang, as it’s worked far harder in the big vans.

to be honest the 2.0 vw engine is pretty fragile in a little caddy. Our caddy has only got 40k on it - I usually run bigger vans to over 300k - and it’s already the most expensive engine I’ve ever owned - and we were lucky it wasn’t worse.

Anything but a Sprinter. I’ve never seen one without rust and all the controls are nicked from their cheapest cars, so the buttons are tiny and delicate.

Non Sprinter based MAN vans can be serviced in the MAN truck network of dealers. This is good as they are mostly 24h operations and are likely to be better at looking after you than a garage attached to a car dealership. Probably the same for Iveco.

Probably the same for Iveco.

Yup, on the continent, at least.... In fact, you can get a Ducato looked at at an Iveco workshop, too.... Handy as most Fiat garages won't have the necessary headroom to lift a high top Ducato.

For towing, you ideally want something with rear wheel drive, which limits you to Transits, Dailys or Sprinters, or there are some RWD Renault Master’s about, but they are very rare...

Thanks for your post some good info there. I would not be looking new something minimum 5-6 years old.

Re towing, I was originally looking at iveco because of the rwd but the ones available second hand all seem to be the massive xlwb which are just so much longer than a "normal" lwb big van and so heavy it put me off. The lack of rwd vans is a challenge, I admit I have had serious traction problems on wet hills with fwd.

Interesting about the access on the iveco. I presumed as they were truck company the access would be good!

Heard about SWG recently, a real pita. When did it become common? Can't have people repairing their own vehicles now!

Non Sprinter based MAN vans can be serviced in the MAN truck network of dealers. This is good as they are mostly 24h operations and are likely to be better at looking after you than a garage attached to a car dealership.

That basically the reason the Crafter gets sold with a MAN badge on it - MAN don't have a hand in its manufacture - its just that as a large van there will be buyers who are also operators of HGVs and will have contracts and relationships with dealers servicing that sector.

It's oft said - the 24hir dealer / service thing - in reviews of the MAN TGE.... but by reviewers regurgitating a press release rather than owners or users of the vans themselves. Is crap backup at night any better than crap backup during the day? The place that services my van steered me away from MAN  (they were the first people I saw driving one the TGEs) - when I was in the market for a new van because of the headaches they have with poor backup from MAN for the vehicles they have contracts to maintain.

Iveco and Fiat are now two different companies.
Iveco is now a standalone company (it was formerly a part of CNH - Case New Holland)
Fiat is now owned by Stellantis (what was formerly called PSA), having previously been a standalone company.

But even before the final split, Iveco and Fiat vans were two totally different dealer networks. There is some overlap in the dealer network, but not that much.

It's largely the dealer support that means lots of fleets just won't consider anything French or Fiat. The support has always been woeful at best.
Merc, VW, Ford, and Iveco will do their best to support their vehicles, but the French and Fiat think there is nothing wrong with vans being of the road for weeks waiting for what should be easy to source parts. We regularly have Ducatos off the road for a couple weeks waiting for fairly common parts, and PSA think nothing of lead times measured in months for older vehicles. Nothing like telling a fleet manager we can't fix his 4 year old van for two months, unless he wants to pop to the scrap...er..vehicle dismantlers for a door latch, or that we can't even get a date for a steering rack and nobody in the aftermarket even lists one.

This is where Merc really do excel, and why you see so many critical fleets running them.
If you have Merc 24 (aka breakdown cover) and they can't fix the vehicle roadside, it gets priority through the workshop, and is managed by Merc UK.
VW do have dedicated breakdown (managed by the AA), but you don't get that level of support.
Ford just use the AA without dedicated patrols, but they have some patrols trained to a similar level as the VW Assist patrols. But for fleets, the Ford support is good.
MAN are trying to match Merc, but they don't have the same size of dealer network, and dealers don't hold the same level of stock.

However as with all the motor trade just now, everybody is short of technicians, so turnaround times for everyone are problematic. Local Volvo truck dealer even refused to attend a month old truck on site with an EGR fault and stuck in reduced power. They're operating on a 'if it can still be driven, we're not coming to you, you can drive it to us' policy, as they don't have the staff to cover breakdowns.

Used to work at a place running the old 3l Iveco daily with an 18' trailer for marquees, could shift it nearly as quick as the Disco 3 but with all the furniture on board as well.

That had space and tow capacity, but which is more important to you? Know a plant firm that likes the mwb sprinters with the V6 as tow vehicles although I think they are 3.2t tow plated.

I’ve seen recent Trafics/Vivaro-Bs with comparable underbody rust to Transits lately

Oh dear. I was considering a 2016-2018 Trafic/Vivaro for my next van.

Would you avoid? Would the 1.6 engines be problematic for bike-lugging or just for commercial use?

Always appreciate your contributions on van threads BTW

Depends on the model.
2.0 often goes bang, as it’s worked far harder in the big vans.
The older ones used a variety of VW engines, but they were all poor reliability and refinement wise compared with the Merc engines.
It’s same story with the Renault 1.6 that they took from their cars and stuck in the Trafic/Vivaro. Was fairly reliable in a sub 2000kg car, but stick it in a van that weighs that empty and it’s not a good combination for reliability.

The 1.6 and I have one is fine. Mine's done 52/K miles seen a fair few with over 100k miles.
They need servicing to be reliable is my feeling.
Mine is a dci single turbo euro 5 version. The later ones seem to have a small problem with the add blue tank level detector, but there is a software fix. The twin turbo ones seem a little less reliable.

My advice as with all things is to have a balance of reading forums.

JeZ

All good info people thanks.

Would you avoid? Would the 1.6 engines be problematic for bike-lugging or just for commercial use?

Personally I think it would be fine. Know several people running them for work. I have the version before (2012) and the issue for me is that it has effectively down rated the van half a class.

That had space and tow capacity, but which is more important to you?

Yep. Load space is #1. But being able to tow a decent trailer is soo useful. Most of the time I would be towing mid sized loads but I like to be over speced when towing and it good when you see something fun to buy you can go buy a project for fun :).

@chakaping

Oh dear. I was considering a 2016-2018 Trafic/Vivaro for my next van.

Would you avoid? Would the 1.6 engines be problematic for bike-lugging or just for commercial use?

I've the 1.6dCi 120, single turbo Trafic SWB ('17) and it's plenty strong enough. It's a bike/surf van and a good one at that.
I have had issues with the Adblue, however, finally resolved with a new Adblue computer....this isn't unique to Renaults BTW....

My local technician reckons they're a good van/engine combo and bodywork won't rust nearly as quickly as other makes as they're zinc treated (not galvanised) so long as it hasn't had a repair. I see plenty of old ones with good bodywork.

I'm looking at changing it for a LWB version soon and ditching the car at the same time. It drives well, much better than my last van - a T5 - on the commute to work down a variety of road types.

That's reassuring cheers @mikertroid & @thebrick

I did note @mc's comment that he could tell us horror stories about any van 😀

I’m looking at changing it for a LWB version soon

You know where I am if you're looking at a private sale

😉

Hiya,

Forgot to mention I chipped my Renault 1.6 115 DCI. It's probably about kicking out about 140BHP.
It wheel spins in second now, not that it's intentional.
Perky enough and mine is a full pop top campervan with bike racks on the back.
The only issue is the rear disks can gum up and score. When they go because the hub dis, bearing is as one it is quite expensive to fix. However that is the only issue and wear and tear.

All the best
JeZ

I have had two VW T4s (one of which was LWB), a Peugeot Boxer, and a Mercedes Vito (LWB).

Both T4s were brilliant. Highly recommended, but too small (although the LWB might suit).

The Boxer was surprisingly brilliant, without ever failing an MOT (or even needing a serious repair) until it required some serious welding to the chassis that had us decide to replace it. If driving around in something that big didn't cause my kids psychological damage, I would actually get one again.

The 2013 Mercedes was unequivocally awful. I mean terrible. The stupid foot-operated parking brake failed regularly; the steering wheel blocked the visibility of the dash; the body rusted with a mere glance; the manual transmission was rough as f___; it would periodically go into limp mode, but even the Mercedes people couldn't figure out why; and the driver's seat was weirdly designed to the point where long drives would give me sciatica. Never again.

The 1.6 and I have one is fine. Mine’s done 52/K miles seen a fair few with over 100k miles.

1.6 turbo is our most fitted turbo. Renault have superseded the turbo many times to try and alleviate the problem. The current ones are more reliable, but that's not hard when the original ones were often going pop before 10k.

From a fleet perspective, they're not a good van as there is little electronic engine protection. You can drive them at full power until the engines physically melt, and the only indicator is a little red warning light. Only once the engine gets hot enough that the ECU thinks the coolant temp sensor has an electrical fault (around 140degC IIRC), will it decide to give an audible warning and light up more than a solitary warning light.

Ford/Merc on the other hand will reduce engine power and light up the dash like a Christmas tree, with Ford going as far as reducing the engine output to idle and even stopping it if the temp gets hot enough.

To give a bit context for major failures, so far this year our workshop has fitted two Ducato engines (a 2.0l due to low oil after the turbo seals failed, and a 2.3 with bottom end failure - Had a few with random knocking last year as well), one 2.0l Crafter (turbo went and took out the engine), and two 2.0l Transit Custom engines (both timing belt failures and from the same national customer who thought the oil life issues were just a software issue, so told their drivers to just reset the oil life warnings to avoid the vehicles being off the road for an oil change. Then compounded by my idiotic employer not updating service sheets with the Timing belt checks as part of the service, which Ford added over a year ago).

Then turbo wise, we're already up to three 1.6 Vivaro turbos (at peak turbo issues, we were averaging one a week!), one 2.0l Transit turbo (first one in over a year), one 1.6l Fiesta turbo (I'm expecting this one to be back having gone pop again fairly soon, as none of the required oil delivery checks were done - have I ever mentioned I work beside some idiots?), and I condemned a 2.0l Ducato turbo today as during checking an electrical issue, I noticed oil running out the join between the turbo and catalyst/DPF.

And that's out a vehicle park of ~1200 vans, with the most common vehicle probably still Transits/Customs. Ducatos also make up a fair bit of the bigger vans, with Vivaro's a fair bit of medium vans, and the remainder a mix of anything and everything.

Remember that the majority of rusty Sprinters/Transits are rusty because they are a works van, not personally owned or taken care of by anyone, painted in the cheapest thinnest white paint, that gets washed with fairy liquid/a yard brush maybe once a month if its lucky and only then to stop the Police or your transport manager bollocking you. Stone chips, scrapes and scratches are ignored etc etc...

A privately owned example that's looked after as you would look after your car, tends not to be covered in streaky rusty stains and with flakes of steel coming off the door bottoms when it's 5 years old.

Just wear earplugs. Or don't take passengers.

Remember that the majority of rusty Sprinters/Transits are rusty because they are a works van, not personally owned

my Mk7 was privately owned from 50k miles - it was Network Rail to start with. I Waxoyl'd it religiously, always washed underneath/inside arches. Waxed it, did paint repairs with 2k Frozen White. Oil change every 5k.

No advisory's on previous MOT, no external signs of rust yet it's arse fell out at 112k miles. Both sills from the front arches backwards. I was fed up with some stupid Ford design fails (spinning captive wishbone nuts) that I scrapped it.

I loved having a van but hated it being a Transit.

Modern Waxoyl is rubbish in terms of preventing rust. Dinitrol products are far better, or ACF50 is very popular amongst those who look after their vehicles.
Big issue with the step/sill area were the drain holes get bunged up, and there is a dirt trap just above the mud guard. There is also a regular flow of water through the sill.

For the newer Transit, the wishbone bolts now go all the way through the chassis legs, so if the captive nut does spin, you can stretch in with a spanner, and don't have to cut and shut the leg anymore.

^I used Dinitrol as well and poked the drains clear. Used to have a Defender so was well versed with trying to stop metal corroding!

The brake lines running under the front rails was crap and it used to eat starter motors due to the DMF.
Discs held on with torx that round out as soon as you looked at them and having to cut down through the floor to get to the captive nut was mental.

It was enough that I could have easily sorted the welding out but I was so fed up with the crap design issues that I was happy to scrap it. I stick with Volvo cars now (and a Mk1 Berlingo).

1.6 turbo is our most fitted turbo. Renault have superseded the turbo many times to try and alleviate the problem. The current ones are more reliable, but that’s not hard when the original ones were often going pop before 10k.

I'm not trying to create an argument. That's not my experience with my own. I service mine every year and have met others that have done the same, with no issue. There's evidence that the variable setvice record though with these vans being the issue.
I give one example of a mis diagnosed issue with these vans. The gearbox was considered weak till a number of people discovering the issue was caused by not greasing the gear linkage regulary.
Like I said mine has done 52k miles, no turbo issues. I guess going back to the service problem the oil for the turbo is shared with the engine, perhaps the variable service causes the turbo to fail early? We all know commercial vehicles are abused more after all...

All in all I'm talking about my own experiences with a single van.

JeZ

, I admit I have had serious traction problems on wet hills with fwd.

Depending on how it's loaded, an empty rwd van will struggle more at this as there's no weight over the driven wheels