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An interesting take, but I don't share your experience. I have over a hundred apps but I only use a handful, and they just seem to work. Nothing has broken. But then this is a relatively high end Samsung phone so it seems to have support. I don't think I have ever had a problem. what phone brands are giving you this trouble? Re banking, Barclays app has been decent. I don't go through T&Cs though, I do most things on trust. Call me naive if you want.
The phone does give me an update every few months, but I just click the button and ignore it for 10 mins then it works. I just got Android 13 the other day - same story. Then, I'm not trying to do anything particularly demanding with it.
What brand of phone do you have?
Molgrips
An interesting take, but I don’t share your experience.
Happy to answer but as "a lot the same and some different things" a precursor in this my question was going to be do you read the T&C's and TOS? (Which you answered)
That used to be me .... however one thing I can say specifically for you is I have 4 DD's and no other regular payments because like you I was pissing money into stuff I didn't want/use etc. etc.
One of the things got me to that point was making a rule for myself if I can't be bothered to read the T&C/TOS it can't be important enough to keep.
I personally found it rather cathartic to unsubscribe, stop useless/unused subscriptions and get rid of that "Oh shit I'm still paying for that" feeling. (this is in the something in the makes me feel happy not anxious bucket)
I'm guessing you get those "You paid £3.95 to ... " and each time you feel bad?
Easiest Q to answer ...
What brand of phone do you have?
Currently Apple ... and I've more or less had one since the Iphone 3 but not exclusively
Ive got an original Google Nexus / LG branded andrpoid and I had another Android from 3 (I can't remember the brand).
I guess ironically the 3 one was one I bought for my father for emergencies. probably about 9 yrs ago...
It took a couple of years to find its way to me after he died... but it was to all intents a brick from an update POV. I tried to put it to some use at the time but it was really not possible even with enthusiasm. (e.g. mail wouldn't work but tried just using a browser client and that didn't either)
The google Nexus (?) similarly it's just dead really..can't be officially updated and apps don't work and I don't want it to do anything "new" and fancy - just provide a basic functionality same as my old 6120 but over 3G.
So (and I'll answer all your questions eventually) but I'd just compare these "decade old" phones with the D300 sat on my desk. Yep it doesn't do video... and never did but it still otherwise works exactly as it did over a decade ago as does my even older D70 (other than I converted it to IR).
So I guess what I'm saying is I just want a smartphone to be like my Nikon.... but for various reasons it can't and won't.
I'm moderately OK with the "it really was required to update security" (e.g. TFA for POP3) but I'm not really OK with the "screw you get a new phone stuff"
A pivotal moment in this was relatively recent... (maybe 4 yrs) and I was at a National Trust site where the only way to pay was an App. Sure I'm getting on a bit but I think I'm still fairly young in the demographic of National Trust visitors...
Firstly I wasn't super-keen on downloading a parking App.. but I was meeting others and felt forced to (Yeah I can delete it later) except my iPhone6s (which I considered relatively new for me) was incapable of running the parking app. I even had signal and I was early so I even updated my (not very old to me) iPhone to the latest version and it still wasn't capable of running a parking app.
A (relatively young compared to most people in the car park and probably me) lady was over talking to a Ranger so I went and waited... she had the exact same problem .. whatever phone she had wouldn't run the App luckily the Ranger said they weren't checking parking today.
This just struck me as completely mad.... who at the NT made a deliberate decision that people can't park without a new smartphone? Did they sit round a table and discuss "how are we going to discourage older people?"
So I'm guessing not...rather some younger IT guy decided on a company that provided some App and didn't even consider not everyone (and probably a disproportionate number of people visiting NT ) has the latest and greatest phone.
Moreover and based on my professional experience I strongly suspect they lied/misled to the (probably older and less tech savvy) people passing this budget/item because it was a pet project or they were getting a back hander etc.
[I've had to keep quiet through countless meetings where this has happened - one of my reasons for getting out of tech]
.. and the thing is it's a freakin parking App.... I don't know what the App actually did but it just needs to take a reg and payment and update a database... it doesn't need a 3D rendered virtual map and plan of the grounds or whatever that requires a "latest phone".
I have over a hundred apps but I only use a handful, and they just seem to work.
Sorry, I'm kinda quoting out of context but then how many of these hundred apps are doing the same thing? How many are different parking Apps for example?
Can you not still rely on the sticker at NT properties? You could recently.
Sorry, I’m kinda quoting out of context but then how many of these hundred apps are doing the same thing? How many are different parking Apps for example?
About four. But here's the thing - they all work pretty well, and they are all better than having to hunt for coins because I never ever have coins, which leads to some real frustration and a wasted half-hour whilst I try and get some cash then some change. So I like the parking apps - park, look for the number then walk off whilst clicking a few buttons in the app.
I have had the latest Samsung every few years for a while now, I went S6-S9-S21. Not because I get rid of them prematurely, but they always seem to break one way or the other. The S9 is still going though in my daughter's hands, it's going to need its second replacement battery soon. But the reason I get the latest S-series model is that they always work without compromises. My wife always said 'oh I don't need the best thing' and always ended up with some piece of junk budget thing that had bloatware filling up too-small storage etc and didn't get OS updates. Then she got Google phones and currently has a Flip 3 and as flagship phones they are all well supported and the manufacturers make sure they work well. So that might be part of why we have better experiences.
And yes, you are quite right that stuff shouldn't become obselete so quickly, but I think that has slowed down a lot. The S9, despite having a poor battery, still works very well and is worth fixing so we will.
parking apps are a pain in the ass. but still easier than having sufficent coins.
I've never been to a national trust car park that needed an app though. every single one round here has a machine that you can scan your NT card on for free parking.
Molgrips
Can you not still rely on the sticker at NT properties? You could recently.
I believe you can for members ... I guess regardless though the intention of "The Trust" as it were was never to discourage (older) people with older tech from paying for parking if they aren't a member or in a relatives car etc.
I'm not a member, partly I have a few philosophical differences but mainly if I'm honest because it's a subscription and I absolutely try my hardest not to have recurring payments (given I used to be in your situation) and I don't trust myself. If I was doing anything it would be a one off donation....
About four. But here’s the thing – they all work pretty well, and they are all better than having to hunt for coins because I never ever have coins, which leads to some real frustration and a wasted half-hour whilst I try and get some cash then some change. So I like the parking apps – park, look for the number then walk off whilst clicking a few buttons in the app.
That's sorta missing out the card payment option though ?
I guess for me there is some mindset thing... I'm going to <somewhere> (95% will be with my bike) what do I need to take?
Much as I agree a phone is a useful safety feature it's also not something I want on a ride unless its being used as a satnav or something I'd think (or want) "oh must take a phone in case I need parking, food etc.)
Also as per another forked thread... lots of people are finding stuff doesn't work after updates, including medical stuff.
And yes, you are quite right that stuff shouldn’t become obsolete so quickly, but I think that has slowed down a lot.
So just bypassing manufacturers .. going back to "a parking app" I'm totally missing why it required a later version of any mobile OS.
I'm sure the "NT Exec" have some old fogies make us look positively young and would be quite horrified that somehow the App excluded people without "more modern mobiles" - I know the NT is a charity not a government org as such but using as an example there should IMHO be the same protections for people who either don't want a smartphone or can't afford one or just don't want a modern one as other "lifestyle choices". I'm not vegan (by a LONG WAY) but I'd support the rights of Vegans to exist in society ... to use a daft example I don't think insisting people wear leather goods to be allowed to vote or if they work somewhere they have to eat company provided food that they are given a vegan choice and even allowed to take their own food and eat at the same tables.
{I'm a bit invested in this as I'm coeliac and it makes life difficult when I'm with mates want to eat somewhere I can't - even if I have brought my own food - "sorry you can't bring your own food to these benches"}
going back to “a parking app” I’m totally missing why it required a later version of any mobile OS.
I'm guess for anything involving payment info theres an issue with security and whether an older OS is still getting updated and patched
parking apps are a pain in the ass. but still easier than having sufficent coins.
Parking apps are a pain on first use. You invariably wind up somewhere trying to download and app with bog all reception. Once set up though they're a breeze. The biggest annoyance for me is that there's so many of them, I must have half a dozen on my phone.
I’ve never been to a national trust car park that needed an app though. every single one round here has a machine that you can scan your NT card on for free parking.
Assuming you're a member, of course.
I think NT have changed their parking management provider, around here they've pulled all the units out that took cash or contactless and replaced them with cash only with a sign to use an app. I honestly can't believe they thought an app would be easier that contactless, it's simply down to putting it out to tender and an app being cheaper hence more profitable than contactless.
As for being fed up of needing a phone for everything, I'm a software dev and so burnt out with tech I have no patience with needing apps for parking, if I can't pay cash or card I'm not visiting.
Also as per another forked thread… lots of people are finding stuff doesn’t work after updates, including medical stuff.
"Lots" of people? Are you sure about that?
In any case, we should differentiate between app updates and OS updates. Upgrading the OS always carries a risk of compatibility issues, especially if you're an early adopter. App updates generally shouldn't.
So just bypassing manufacturers .. going back to “a parking app” I’m totally missing why it required a later version of any mobile OS.
As maccruiskeen says, you probably want security patches on anything that handles money.
That aside, there's also the issue of testing. How practical is it to make sure that your app works with every incarnation of iOS / Android going back a decade, when most people only get two years out of a phone before getting sucked into their "free" upgrade?
it’s simply down to putting it out to tender and an app being cheaper hence more profitable than contactless.
It's also a lot harder to pass on your ticket to someone else when you're leaving.
So just bypassing manufacturers .. going back to “a parking app” I’m totally missing why it required a later version of any mobile OS.
Android went through some big changes early on, but now it's a lot more sorted and most stuff now seems to require Android later than 4.3 or thereabouts. Barclays mobile banking app for example requires Android 5 which was released in 2014. I think things have been pretty stable since then. It does require iOS 14 though in Apple land which is from 2020 - is that part of the problem? Is iOS worse for this?
maccruiskeen
I’m guess for anything involving payment info theres an issue with security and whether an older OS is still getting updated and patched
I guess I should have written the longer version ... (I do try and be less verbose)
At the time I had lots of stuff involving payment on the phone. (OK lots being somewhat subjective perhaps but not non) I think at the time I had ApplePay working for example... so it may have been "easier" or "cheaper" (or someone's pet project)
So I'm guessing (based on being in similar meetings and having to keep quiet) someone did their best to gloss over this "requirement" or steer the non IT literate members away from asking
Stevextc - I have just skipped through the thread and I am a little puzzled. Your understanding of tech looks to be far superior than mine, yet I wouldn't be without my smart phone. Its the most useful device I have.
I agree that with an ageing population and the decrease in real banks on the Highstreet and cash then some people will struggle with the tech. However, its just change and improvement, lots of people dont like change as they get older, and I guess the technology has changed within a generation. To me using cash and cards to pay for anything is now alien, I pay for everything using my phone.
I have a bank account on my phone that I've had for 20 odd years, only about £150 in it, I use it for occasional bike purchases. Lloyds never bother me or query me. Our other main bank is only available online and again is simple to use, although their security checks used to be over onerous it is now only face ID which is great.
My parents are in their 80's, occasionally they ask for help on how to do things on computers etc, but once learned it is so simple.
Cougar
It’s also a lot harder to pass on your ticket to someone else when you’re leaving.
I think its better to quote the entire thing matt303uk wrote.
matt303uk
I think NT have changed their parking management provider, around here they’ve pulled all the units out that took cash or contactless and replaced them with cash only with a sign to use an app. I honestly can’t believe they thought an app would be easier that contactless, it’s simply down to putting it out to tender and an app being cheaper hence more profitable than contactless.
As for being fed up of needing a phone for everything, I’m a software dev and so burnt out with tech I have no patience with needing apps for parking, if I can’t pay cash or card I’m not visiting.
So passing the ticket on? Bad requirements gathering... no reason you can't stick in the Reg as well?
but that's really not the top thing is it?
As an organisation they need to consider revenue they lose due to people not having the App.... I don't mean not able to use it or not having their phones I just mean turning up being willing to pay a reasonable fee knowing it's going to the NT seeing you need YES another App and just thinking sod it I'll go park or visit elsewhere that's easier.
This specific occasion I'd arranged to meet people but there is plenty of on street parking in walking, let alone cycling distance. I was happy to pay a reasonable fee knowing it was for the NT... so no more and I no longer arrange to meet people in NT the car park so they miss that revenue as well.
They should also consider reputational cost... not just me and matt303uk but older people (than us even) who see this as alienating them from the NT.
FunkyDunc
Stevextc – I have just skipped through the thread and I am a little puzzled. Your understanding of tech looks to be far superior than mine, yet I wouldn’t be without my smart phone. Its the most useful device I have.
You probably cross posted but read matt303uk's post ^^
I'm certainly burned out from it... but the other part is I've been on both sides of the fence in that I've worked for multi-national companies that are "tech consumers" and multi-national companies that are "tech providers".
In both I've been told to keep my mouth shut or not ask difficult questions when someone is trying to sell something inappropriate to the client/end user or been I've told to modify the requirements to fit a product.
To use a non pure tech example... take "Smart Motorways" ... Lets say theoretically I know a person who made the suggestion or was at least involved to conflate what the UK called Smart Motorways with what Germany calls Smart Motorways (with hard shoulder) and use the stats from the latter to justify the former.
The aim would have been to ensure they could sell the tech regardless... and they would have been under pressure to do so... they may well have then seen the deaths and like me decided to leave the industry but unlike me found something more worthwhile to do with their life.
Mis-selling things is nothing to do with tech, it's been happening since forever. You just saw it happening in tech because that's where you work.
Molgrips
Mis-selling things is nothing to do with tech, it’s been happening since forever. You just saw it happening in tech because that’s where you work.
Well sure, banking doesn't seem to be any better 😉 (or used car sales)
Perhaps why I'm super-wary of the overlap 😉
A little less flippantly - many of the overlaps are about TOS / T&C etc. and pressuring people into something they don't actually want whilst steering them away from reading the TOS and using terminology requires in depth knowledge of a SME level.
I guess an example is PPI - "Do you want the mortgage or not... it comes with PPI or you can go find another provider" vs "do you want to park or not... just download the app and put your card details in"
From an "insider" perspective it feels to me like the tech is being used as a tool for mis selling.
Well you still need to pay for parking, so your is going to get used somewhere.
I can see where you're coming from. I don't have many apps on my phone, those I have are those that make my life useful , without making it a lot more stressful. I have, as well as google stuff, a single parking app that covers most everything in the country I live. It occasionally updates, but it works most everywhere, reliably, and only really needs an update or recheck the security.. once a year. I have a similar app for getting public transport - needs an update once in a blue moon. And a banking app, that allows me to pay other people very fast, needs a security check every now and again. I'm not very hung up on the T&C's, I'm not missold - I need parking or I don't, and this saves money. Ditto the bus
This I have changed - I changed power supplier as they couldn't bill properly, and kept trying to sell me stuff, at a rubbish price. So they get changed, and deleted. I also use a few apps to fast charge my car... ones that don't cause me hassle get a lot more use than ones that are shonky and unreliable rubbish.
I don't have your background, but for me it's a balance of stuff that does what I want, when I want, with a tolerable level of pain (for want of a better word), if they're more hassle I don't want them, and if I don't have them it's a p.i.t.a. also.
Balance
Maybe working in the industries, you have has made you think about things 'tech' too much, or maybe I am just positively happily naive.
My wife wont use her mobile to pay for stuff, I will. She thinks its open to fraud. My thought on that is if the bank are allowing it, then its their risk if it goes wrong.
I dont use 'social media' although I do need it for my sons football club and my cycling club, but I share minimal data (although I appreciate that it may be more than I think)
I was just thinking I dont use many apps. But just looking at my phone there are probably 20 that I use almost daily, all of which make my life simpler or help it.
Back to your point - just go off grid and keep your money under your mattress.... can you still wander over to the council offices to pay council tax?
As an organisation they need to consider revenue they lose due to people not having the App….
If I were a betting man, I'd hazard that NT don't police their parking areas at all. Rather they rely on honesty / donations.
FunckyDunc
Maybe working in the industries, you have has made you think about things ‘tech’ too much, or maybe I am just positively happily naive.
probably both ... Molgrips isn't wrong saying I see overselling and misrepresenation etc. in the industry I worked in.
My wife wont use her mobile to pay for stuff, I will. She thinks its open to fraud.
Yes and no... at one end anything connected to the internet... at the other way less than contactless assuming it requires a passcode/fingerprint/face recognition.
My thought on that is if the bank are allowing it, then its their risk if it goes wrong.
Well, there will be some legislation... (I haven't read) and T&C etc. but its also a question of how inconvenient it being blocked is (you might be paid back eventually but the process may be more or less unpleasant)... and the more you have especially you don't understand the more you open yourself to scams or fraud. (I often get scams pertaining to be from banks I don't have... not only the one I do... which makes these somewhat easier to spot)
My mum had some scam and by chance I was visiting her but she was in tears dealing with the bank security.
I was just thinking I dont use many apps. But just looking at my phone there are probably 20 that I use almost daily, all of which make my life simpler or help it.
If your happy then no reason not to....
Back to your point – just go off grid and keep your money under your mattress….
Well I was looking to stay a step away from that.... e.g low tech solution / pre paid card etc.
can you still wander over to the council offices to pay council tax?
Not according to my council website... but someone said you could so its possible they are just not advertising it but have to or one council are less pushy than mine???
Well my In-Laws have smart phones but apart from WhatsApp almost no Apps. They use Halifax for banking after they fell out with Lloyds (Lloyds ended up paying a lot of money for their actions)
Apart from email and the very occasional WhatsApp message that's the extent of their online activity.
Yes they do drive 6 miles to the Halifax branch but they live in a small South Cotswolds village and they do their food shopping on the same trip, they also have an account at a local garage for petrol/diesel, that they settle up every month by cheque. So yes its easily possible to not do banking online for the present time. But that would be my worst nightmare as I have averted a few cockups/overcharging situations by having my phone alert me of every transaction. It also makes paying people a lot less stressful & saves me hours of time and money.
But if you want to do it the low tech way, for now it seems possible.
Branch coverage can also be regional. Near us HSBC are quite good in small towns but my partner is RBS and not one for 50 miles.
HSBC you don't need a app. I use a dongle.
If you want to reduce tech your best bet is to have a smart phone or tablet to use for banking but no data or contract. Keep it in a draw like dongle. Don't use it for anything else. Use a basic non smart phone for actually carrying around.
can you still wander over to the council offices to pay council tax?
Not according to my council website… but someone said you could so its possible they are just not advertising it but have to or one council are less pushy than mine???
I wonder, does the oft-misunderstood notion of 'legal tender' apply here? If (IF) council tax is considered to be a debt then they cannot refuse a cash payment. AFAIK anyway.
I will add admire your aim and I don't like the infiltration of apps either. I try and use a computer rather than apps where possible.
As my previous post I think the mid way is the phone / tablet in a draw solution. Keep it for admin and minimal use.
The Brick
I will add admire your aim and I don’t like the infiltration of apps either. I try and use a computer rather than apps where possible.
As my previous post I think the mid way is the phone / tablet in a draw solution. Keep it for admin and minimal use.
That's not a bad shout ... indeed I got an Amazon deal tablet (£20-£30?? I think) a few months ago to use as an appliance.
Honestly, I think you're taking 2 minute jobs and turning them into tedious half-day long excursions that involve identification papers and travelling and the like.
The jobs are always depressing - do them the fastest most convenient way you can. 5 minutes of depression to pay your council tax is better than finding your ID papers, riding to <wherever> for 30 minutes, locking your bike up, standing in a queue whilst worrying if someone's going to nick your bike, talking to someone who'll be saying "why don't you pay online? Have you tried paying online? Online is the most convenient method! Here - let me give you some information about how to pay online!", before handing over all your ID, waiting whilst it's checked, hoping you've got everything (and there'll be times you won't). "Do you want me to email you the receipt?"
By by walking into a branch and doing the do there you're still accepting the "t's&c's" - it's just that they don't read them to you.
Honestly. You'll be happier if you stop raging against the machine.
Honestly. You’ll be happier if you stop raging against the machine.
Some people do just like finding reasons to be unhappy....
I will add admire your aim and I don’t like the infiltration of apps either. I try and use a computer rather than apps where possible.
out of interest, how do you see that as being different?
out of interest, how do you see that as being different?
Im here for this answer. whats meant by "infiltration"? With bio and face id the phone is way more secure and any sort of tracking done on the phone will be done on a website too.
I mean, you call it a phone, but it’s computer with a phone app. And the for most the phone app is one that probably gets used the least..
chevychase
The jobs are always depressing – do them the fastest most convenient way you can. 5 minutes of depression to pay your council tax is better than finding your ID papers, riding to <wherever> for 30 minutes, locking your bike up, standing in a queue whilst worrying if someone’s going to nick your bike, talking to someone who’ll be saying “why don’t you pay online? Have you tried paying online? Online is the most convenient method! Here – let me give you some information about how to pay online!”, before handing over all your ID, waiting whilst it’s checked, hoping you’ve got everything (and there’ll be times you won’t). “Do you want me to email you the receipt?”
Worst bit is the "worrying if someone’s going to nick your bike" - the rest is a lot less so due mainly to me doing it like overshoots inlaws but on a bike.
I actual enjoy doing stuff manually ... and sometimes its more convenient. [turning something on rather than finding a remote type convenient]
Another way I see it is I can cycle to the council offices (for example) maybe do some other stuff or I could use some App whilst I'm cycling on an indoor trainer ??
The worrying about someone nicking the bike I'm addressing separately as a council tax payer (perhaps ironically)
but someone said you could so its possible they are just not advertising it
Lots of councils don't want to do this because...High Street banks are disappearing. If you go to a council with a cheque or cash money, someone then has to go to a physical bank and pay it in...They have the same issue we all have, that's it's becoming very difficult to do.
'to use as an appliance.'
That , I think, might be the best way to view a phone.
Another way I see it is I can cycle to the council offices (for example) maybe do some other stuff
I guess it then comes down to how "rural" you see your future location. I think it's a 50 mile round trip to any council building where I could hand over cash. I could try to combine that with other reasons to go there but that would most likely start to involve a car rather than a bike and I try to drive as little as possible.
jam-bo
out of interest, how do you see that as being different?
I mean, you call it a phone, but it’s computer with a phone app. And the for most the phone app is one that probably gets used the least..
Short and perhaps flippant answer... I don't turn up on on a ride and someone expects I have my laptop
Longer answer .. for me it's the expectation that I have a phone, it's turned on and I'm happy to carry it about and be contacted one way or another .... and because of that expectation that I'm happy to download and configure some App to do a (often one off) task then either have to delete it or manage it somehow.
A perhaps extreme example (but I'm using it because it wraps a lot up) is I'm sat in a field with a small group (6 or 7) of other parents having carried BBQ's/Gazebo's and the like to volunteer my time (and Gazebo)to a fund raising Fete.
After 1/2 hour we start wondering WTF ... there should be 30-40 parents and some teachers and stuff... after an hour someone turns their phone on and calls the head teacher to be told "Oh we cancelled it on Facebook, you should have seen it".
Neither myself or any of the others volunteered to use/see/install and agree to TOS for Facebook**... no-one made it clear that it was expected the communications by email or in person asking us to volunteer were no longer used because implicitly we must have FB and "Follow and Like" the school and instead I'm meant to sign up to a social media website and check that and when they decide on another mode of communication I'm meant to adopt that as well?
I think I remember this one as it was the first time perhaps I was blamed for not having a specific bit of tech/App/Social median as in "it's your fault you didn't know its cancelled you should have checked FB".
I mean it could have been FB/Twitter/WhatsApp or whatever .... but it seems people (me) are expected to just adopt and mix and match Apps and stuff and have communication spread across platforms based on some whims.
joepud
Im here for this answer. whats meant by “infiltration”? With bio and face id the phone is way more secure and any sort of tracking done on the phone will be done on a website too.
I can't answer for the Brick but above is what I see as App infiltration.
This pressure to download another App... to fix a problem I don't have or to invent a term "marketing by exclusion" by which I mean getting others to make someone miss out if they don't adopt your platform/App etc.
With bio and face id the phone is way more secure and any sort of tracking done on the phone will be done on a website too.
That depends what you call secure... you certainly have an illusion of security if you think access to your phone and your data is controlled by bio and face id. At your end the phone is locked and secured to you.. until you do some bio/face ID thing it's still sharing your data with the rest of the world as permission has been granted to Apps that "require" or not this data to work.
If you ever use a properly MDM secured device you'll realise how little works when services are only enabled by exception that have to be justified... this has proven to be a pain in the arse for some like Suella when she wants to share confidential and secret information with a mates wife for example.
(I'm using that as an illustration... I'm not condoning her actions.)
This is another aspect of the "infiltration" through the "marketing by exclusion".
We get cooerced into accepting TOS or sharing data we probably wouldn't given consideration because we are urged to "use this app" or "use that platform" in order not to be excluded.
Oh we cancelled it on Facebook, you should have seen it
How would you have preferred to have been told?
I think you are starting off from a negative premise here - that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.
For example, in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message. This is much more work for the organiser and also a lot more intrusive for those being called. The app in this case should have made life easier. I agree that FB isn't necessarily the best platform for this though because many people have privacy concerns. WhatsApp is better for this.
Of course, they should have made it clear that the barbecue would be arranged on a specific platform beforehand rather than just assumed, but that's not the app's fault.
someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message.
But that still mandates the ownership and use of a telephone. Why should someone be forced into that? Surely the correct approach would have been to despatch a series of messengers round all of the participants.
nickc
Lots of councils don’t want to do this because…High Street banks are disappearing. If you go to a council with a cheque or cash money, someone then has to go to a physical bank and pay it in…They have the same issue we all have, that’s it’s becoming very difficult to do.
So they could have a card reader ???
There are lots of easy and simple ways to solve this.
I live in a seperate "sub town" as it were... we have our own (dying) neighbourhood shopping centre(s) etc. and I think counter intuitively amazon lockers and click and collect have actually increased footfall.
Molgrips
How would you have preferred to have been told?
Scotroutes already answered 😉
..I'll jump to the end and answer backwards
I think you are starting off from a negative premise here – that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.
For example, in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message. This is much more work for the organiser and also a lot more intrusive for those being called. The app in this case should have made life easier. I agree that FB isn’t necessarily the best platform for this though because many people have privacy concerns. WhatsApp is better for this.
Of course, they should have made it clear that the barbecue would be arranged on a specific platform beforehand rather than just assumed, but that’s not the app’s fault.
So working backwards a bit...
Yes... they should have made it clear not just assumed everyone would have FB and actually be "following"
How to inform people? Well to be blunt that's her problem ... she was asking for a day of parents time to raise money and I would have had better things to do than spend it in a field selling lucky dip... let alone her deciding to cancel it because she suddenly had something better to do. TBH I can't remember if it was a Sat or Sun but I'm pretty sure the reason wasn't "weather" or "illness" etc.... (I'm not even sure a reason was actually given?)
The lists of who was bringing what and doing what were all organised by email so sending an email and asking for a reply to confirm receipt would seem a first step and then get on a bike and go and put a note under the door if anyone didn't reply.
Just to add some detail she didn't tell the caretaker (or whoever had got up and gone and unlocked the gates).... or any of the parents/grandparents who'd seen the posters or fliers and presumably turned up after...
she thought some post on social media was good enough.
One point here is switching communications platforms... if you start on one then keep to it. Especially you have asked people for their valuable time .. I view it as extremely rude not to even both sending an email... I guess it might have meant her getting up and turning on a computer or even going into school or something... was there time to send notes homes with kids dunno??
Someone had been and unlocked the gates... I wasn't the first to arrive so I assume the caretaker?
FB/WhatApp .. whatever... it's still making an assumption I'm OK with the TOS of that platform.
I think you are starting off from a negative premise here – that apps are bad, and that you are objecting to them becoming prevalent. But if you see them as a positive thing, then their prevalence is also positive.
It's not the specific App or perhaps even Apps. Someone will decide and then start telling others what they should use. (I happen to agree WhatsApp would be better but that's not the point)
Its the assumption I'd actually use it or check it or even want to carry or turn on a phone at any specific time/place or use AND MANAGE a specific platform/app etc. or have a smartphone at all.
They are all intermixed and as much as anything its the behaviours around them.
I go back to the appliance and my camera thing. I don't turn up on a ride and someone expects I have a pro camera. It doesn't require maintenance and updates (other than keeping battery health) .. etc. etc.
I can turn just it off or not take it and no consequences .. so it's being used as an appliance I can use or not.
There are obviously some advantages to Apps/Smartphones... but for me there are some red lines mainly around behaviours and for me these far far outweigh the advantages. I don't want "we sent a notification" type stuff, I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.
she was asking for a day of parents time to raise money and I would have had better things to do than spend it in a field selling lucky dip
Well I was going to say I'm sure she did too, but it turns out she apparently went and did that instead. But let's assume she had a good reason - she'd planned to give up her day just as you had for the same altruistic reasons, so not really her problem - more like all of yours. But yes, of course she handled it badly for a variety of non-app-related reasons. As for email - that is pull messaging i.e. you check it when you want to, not push messaging where it pings you. You may object to push messaging but sometimes a message needs to be transmitted urgently. A phone call after all is a push message.
I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.
But you still want to be able to use all the services that are done through phones - for many good reasons. That's like saying you don't want to start your car for a month but you still want to drive places. Everything is a compromise.
but for me there are some red lines mainly around behaviours
Hmm an interesting point. Do phones enable more people to behave badly than before, in new ways? Perhaps. But then, people have been behaving badly for millennia haven't they?
I don’t want “we sent a notification” type stuff, I want to be able to turn off my phone for a month if I like.
Then how do you want to be told of things about which you need to know?
OP is modern day Jason Bourne?
It would be quite hard work to live in modern world without smart phones apps and without leaving digital footprints.
…. and because of that expectation that I’m happy to download and configure some App to do a (often one off) task then either have to delete it or manage it somehow.
Two things here:
1) This is a 'managing expectations' issue. I carry a phone for my benefit, not for everyone else's. I'm not at your beck and call.
2) Kinda related to the above is a self-control issue. If the phone rings and it's not convenient for me to answer it, I'll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we'll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she'll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. "But it might be important!" Honey, I'm fairly sure that no-one ever went "help, the house is on fire" via text message. Drives me insane.
A perhaps extreme example (but I’m using it because it wraps a lot up) is I’m sat in a field with a small group (6 or 7) of other parents having carried BBQ’s/Gazebo’s and the like to volunteer my time (and Gazebo)to a fund raising Fete.
After 1/2 hour we start wondering WTF … there should be 30-40 parents and some teachers and stuff… after an hour someone turns their phone on and calls the head teacher to be told “Oh we cancelled it on Facebook, you should have seen it”.
This is nothing to do with the technology, it's just poor communication. The head equally could have put a sign up on the Church noticeboard and made the same argument. As you say yourself, switching channels was the problem here. If they'd told you they were using Facebook for further updates then you'd have had the opportunity to communicate that you're not on Facebook; I doubt you'd have been the only one.
How to inform people? Well to be blunt that’s her problem …
It's not, though, is it. It may be her responsibility, but it's your problem when you're the one sat in a field on your own.
--
in your barbecue example, without some kind of bulk messaging platform someone would have had to ring round all the participants (and have their numbers) individually and either speak to them and leave a message.
Wouldn't have worked, Steve said "After 1/2 hour... someone turns their phone on" so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.
sounds like he's "found his tribe" though, as they say 😃Steve said “After 1/2 hour… someone turns their phone on” so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.
(Meanwhile everyone else was off enjoying their weekend 😉)
When I was a kid I once cycled a long way on a sub-zero morning in my normal clothes to meet a 'friend' at a location near his house, so he could guide me the last few miles. He didn't show up, leaving me sat freezing on a bench for an hour before riding back home again. No phone apps were involved. If I'd had a phone I'd have WhatsApped him. Actually no, if I'd had a phone I'd have used Google Maps to find his address and cycled directly there.
It’s not the specific App or perhaps even Apps. Someone will decide and then start telling others what they should use. (I happen to agree WhatsApp would be better but that’s not the point)
Its the assumption I’d actually use it or check it or even want to carry or turn on a phone at any specific time/place or use AND MANAGE a specific platform/app etc. or have a smartphone at all.
Yet you're perfectly fine with email as a communication medium? Something which is very easy to simply not check (unless you have an app on your phone with push notifications enabled but, well, here we are again...)
Fundamentally, you want something that isn't intrusive which is fair enough, yet are describing a real-world scenario where you needed something to intrude briefly in order to notify you of the change of plans. You can't complain about a lack of communication when you're actively going out of your way to be as unreachable as possible.
And, a note through everyone's door, really? You seriously think that's a valid alternative to a quick "message to all" which would take seconds from someone who may be ill in bed? That's veering dangerously into the realms of you never being invited to anything ever again because you're too much like hard work.
If the phone rings and it’s not convenient for me to answer it, I’ll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we’ll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she’ll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. “But it might be important!” Honey, I’m fairly sure that no-one ever went “help, the house is on fire” via text message. Drives me insane.
https://images.app.goo.gl/CPYgXvPgk5dnCise7
Molgrips ...
I seem to need to answer these all backwards ...
Then how do you want to be told of things about which you need to know?
In general I don't want to be required to "need to know"... or to put another way I'd like to minimise the things that others decide I need to know and how I find out or take some action or inaction if I don't.
For example the fete has been advertised on posters and fliers... presumably because they recognised many people wouldn't have known if they just stuck it on FB and they'd be losing money...
In general these "need to know" things seem to disadvantage me or certainly don't overlap well with what I would have wanted to know..
if I might give an example of a notification you just paid for another year subscription for example whereas what I'd have wanted to know is a link to cancel my subscription in plenty of time or even better a "back up your data and unsubscribe".
So I'm not so naive as to think that's actually going to happen.... so instead I'd rather just cancel all these subscriptions and remove the need to be notified they just took some money off me.
(Yeah, I just paid for this thing I didn't actually want for another year... but you and I know in another year we'd be in the same place so just cancel it now) {that's a helpful hint hopefully}
So having got rid of this information overload we (I REALLY REALLY doubt this is just me and you if people were honest) end up with far less of this "need to be informed" stuff and we can then prioritise other stuff (like Tax submissions, council tax etc. all that stuff we get fined for)
So that aside though...the kid came home from cadets yesterday saying "Your being sent an email with a link to pay for my smock" ... and indeed I did and a very nice email it was saying how he's a credit to me and had explained it would be better if they just sent me a link not used the App. [I'm not sure what he'd said exactly but he'd been aside and explained and done so in a very nice manner by all accounts]
Hmm an interesting point. Do phones enable more people to behave badly than before, in new ways? Perhaps. But then, people have been behaving badly for millennia haven’t they?
Not just phones but perhaps centred around them.
So yeah to take a random example ... sure people have been bullying others for more than millennia but the ease and enablement of cyberbullying (at least to me) seems exponentially larger ..
But yes, of course she handled it badly for a variety of non-app-related reasons. As for email – that is pull messaging i.e. you check it when you want to, not push messaging where it pings you. You may object to push messaging but sometimes a message needs to be transmitted urgently. A phone call after all is a push message.
The difference (IMHO) is the degree of depersonalisation.
At one end she turns up or get someone else to, apologises to whoever got up to unlock and at the other she "posts something"
(Reminds me of the interview with Hislop and Merton)
"What if you make a plan"
"Erm.. you turn up"
Equally and not limited to but again easier to depersonalise...
In general I don’t want to be required to “need to know”… or to put another way I’d like to minimise the things that others decide I need to know and how I find out or take some action or inaction if I don’t.
Ok but in that case you shouldn't have agreed to be involved in organising the barbecue. I mean I understand the need, but you need to understand your own limitations here. This is why I rarely do stuff like that.
Information overload I can understand. I mean, I'm very good at ignoring stuff - too good, in fact - but I can understand how you wouldn't be. That's a thing about modern life though. Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send. Netflix wants to send me notifications, but I said no - and this is done at the phone OS level so there's nothing they can do about it.
Yes, it's work to get life the way you want it, but once done it should stay that way. Each thing you subscribe to, you manage it and make it work the way you want - then forget about it.
Cougar
Yet you’re perfectly fine with email as a communication medium? Something which is very easy to simply not check (unless you have an app on your phone with push notifications enabled but, well, here we are again…)
Yes and No.... literally "pick one" but preferably one doesn't require a proprietary app with TOS I have to read, keep maintained and updated etc.
As you say elsewhere " If they’d told you they were using Facebook for further updates then you’d have had the opportunity to communicate that you’re not on Facebook; I doubt you’d have been the only one."
Yep.. depending by what "on facebook" means... (as in not active) and she could have gone and found other volunteers... same for Tik-sta-gram .. Teams etc. Sorry not using/installing find someone else if using that channel/platform is more important to you than volunteers.
Fundamentally, you want something that isn’t intrusive which is fair enough, yet are describing a real-world scenario where you needed something to intrude briefly in order to notify you of the change of plans. You can’t complain about a lack of communication when you’re actively going out of your way to be as unreachable as possible.
As I said answering Molgrips... minimise it. If its **NEEDED** (someone's texting your GF that their house is burning down) but it's a case of "digital overload". don't for want of a better way to put it send a Email with subject URGENT ACTION REQUIRED and expect I'm amused when it's content is please choose your favourite colour..
or for a matter send an email (or letter) from pension company saying "URGENT LAST CHANCE" if it isn't....
And, a note through everyone’s door, really? You seriously think that’s a valid alternative to a quick “message to all” which would take seconds from someone who may be ill in bed? That’s veering dangerously into the realms of you never being invited to anything ever again because you’re too much like hard work.
Maybe I miswrite or you misread.. letter under door of people didn't reply to the email.
As for not being invited I made it pretty clear I didn't want to be invited to volunteer for anything if leaving people stood in a field is not even worthy of an apology.
Steve said “After 1/2 hour… someone turns their phone on” so presumably they were all sat there incommunicado.
We spent 1/2 hour putting up gazebos and stuff... who had phones switched on and who didn't I don't know TBH and I've forgotten what the excuse was but I'm 100% sure she wasn't ill nor it was the weather.
Kinda related to the above is a self-control issue. If the phone rings and it’s not convenient for me to answer it, I’ll ignore it and check it later. My OH is terrible for this, we’ll be watching a film or something, the damn phone will be buzzing constantly and she’ll dive on it and start worrying at a reply every time. “But it might be important!” Honey, I’m fairly sure that no-one ever went “help, the house is on fire” via text message. Drives me insane.
Some people are better at this than others....
In my case I've had a employer sending email at 0200 in the morning, CC'd to "The world" demanding why I haven't answered or filled out and submitted some form whilst I'm flying 10 mins later.
Why are you so obsessed with Terms of Service?
Yes and No…. literally “pick one” but preferably one doesn’t require a proprietary app with TOS I have to read, keep maintained and updated etc.
Sure. But if instead they'd emailed you, would you have noticed in time?
don’t for want of a better way to put it send a Email with subject URGENT ACTION REQUIRED and expect I’m amused when it’s content is please choose your favourite colour..
Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years? All of these apps you're railing against supplanted that sort of nonsense via email decades ago.
Maybe I miswrite or you misread.. letter under door of people didn’t reply to the email.
OK, but the point stands. You're the one talking about expectations, do you think that it's a reasonable expectation of yours to have someone to hand-write notes (after all, we can't expect everyone to have a printer) and then drive who knows how far around town popping them through letterboxes for no other reason than you're too obstinate to accept any other form of communication?
In my case I’ve had a employer sending email at 0200 in the morning
So have I. So what? I'm not on call, I'll read it when I'm in work later.
I almost certainly wouldn't have noticed until the following morning anyway, unless they'd emailed my personal account and I was still up from the night before. My work phone gets switched off or at least put on silent when I'm not in work and I don't take any communications devices into the bedroom.
Why are you so obsessed with Terms of Service?
I'm not obsessed, I just read any legal contract before agreeing to it.
Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years?
I've had "FINAL CHANCE - PEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETAILS NOW" from pension. Then in the body "You have 2 weeks to respond"
to provide information they already had. (Happens to be on my desk as I type)
OK, but the point stands. You’re the one talking about expectations, do you think that it’s a reasonable expectation of yours to have someone to hand-write notes (after all, we can’t expect everyone to have a printer) and then drive who knows how far around town popping them through letterboxes for no other reason than you’re too obstinate to accept any other form of communication?
School selection is distance from gate in a straight line and its not far.... but either way she changed the plans of lots of parents so she needs (is Responsible and Accountable) to Inform having skipped Consult.
TBH can't remember what her excuse was but I was far from the only one thought it was bollocks.
If I said it was because she had an important meeting the next day and her personal stylist was a bit booked up and she didn't want to have to use a different stylist it would be that sort of level of excuse. (I'm not even sure I know what it was.. lots of parents were furious including those who did see the FB post and talk at school gates)
Quite honestly I don't think she would have dared to do that F2F.... but behind the anonymity of a FB post
I almost certainly wouldn’t have noticed until the following morning anyway
Yep by which time its been escalated in other continents and you are on a formal warning and PIP
Yep by which time its been escalated in other continents and you are on a formal warning and PIP
If that really is the case, which I doubt, then your employer is just utterly crap in more ways than one....
It's not normal to be expected to read emails / notice SMSes at 2 in the morning unless you are specifically paid to be at work (or on call) at that time.
Obviously I don't know you from Adam, but the pop phycologist in me would suggest a diagnosis of techno-phobia which seems to be affecting your quality of life as you seem to spend way too much time worrying about things (like Terms or Service which only lawyers read). You seem to be inventing problems to then worry about. Some CBT might go a long way to resolving your problems.
I have nothing to add other than this thread is brilliant. The idea that a person/people are willing to neglect tech to make their lives harder is crazy life is too short to waste on this stuff. But i guess while you're in a line waiting for a bank to open or be seen at least you have time to kill so can read all those terms of services to decide if you want to use an app or not. I have never read a terms of service in my life thats just long.
All appreciated ... I guess this is the whole thing.
Yes, it’s work to get life the way you want it, but once done it should stay that way. Each thing you subscribe to, you manage it and make it work the way you want – then forget about it.
You set it up and then didn't cancel... then later feel shit because you didn't?
Information overload I can understand. I mean, I’m very good at ignoring stuff – too good, in fact – but I can understand how you wouldn’t be. That’s a thing about modern life though. Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send. Netflix wants to send me notifications, but I said no – and this is done at the phone OS level so there’s nothing they can do about it.
I'll unpick as best I can ...
Yep but NetFlix is one thing (not mission critical) but banking is another.
Back when I was a kid we had utility bills, a phone bill and a TV license. Now, we have those things and a huge list of other services to subscribe to and manage, with all the associated marketing and demands. But those things are all opt-in, I chose to subscribe because of the benefits they give. And yes, I can ignore the emails that they send.
Yeah but the banking Apps are something I want to opt-out (as much as I can) because then I can't ignore the notifications...
Cougar keeps asking why I'm obsessed with TOS/T&C etc. and one reason is I keep getting screwed over on them.
I'm the sort of person (maybe you are) that gets bike insurance and gets the Gold/Platinum lock then when it comes to claim the fine print say's you need proof of purchase of the lock.. its not good enough to just have it and even have a photo of the bike using it... and the cut lock etc. because they are saying "you should have reads the T&C's"
So .. I can (to take this example) eventually find a bike policy and satisfy myself .. to the policy and to some extent check at renewal something material hasn't changed
Apps.. just keep changing the TOS and T&C's... and have dependencies (such as OS and OS updates).
At some point some TOS or something will change and I'll have another account hacked or something and I'll not have complied with the TOS.
So here's the thing on the pension letter... the "FINAL CHANCE - PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETALS BELOW" one.
It's actually got a handwritten note on it saying "By phone 4 Dec - letter in post in 30 days" which strongly makes me thing I called the number on 4 Dec and was told I'd be receiving a letter by 3rd Jan (excluding XMAS post)
Obviously I didn't... or did it mean I had to submit some letter by post within 30 days... (I don't think so but not 100%) so regardless I kicked myself up the ass after your link (thank you) and called them again and got a email/set up and have access. So I screwed up... should have got back to them...
Now I know which pension this actually is it reveals ANOTHER screw up... me failing to check.
I got offered through company some pension advice setting this up... I should obviously have checked the costs involved and didn't. (I think I'd assumed it was paid by the company)... turns out it cost me something like an entire YEAR of contributions to get what was it turned out a phone call to recommend a "personalise plan" and to add insult to injury the individual plan is set up for someone with the last 2 digits in my birthdate transposed so nearly 2 decades younger than me.
So I guess what I'm saying is I don't trust myself to keep up to date .... I'll screw up on the app... not do something required/mandated and get screwed again.
Equally.. when I say I want to turn my phone off for a month and not suffer consequences (i.e. App telling me I must do this or that) I mean I want that to be possible not that is what I want to do. More to the point I think I really mean I want to be able to ignore the banking app... and other similar stuff rather than switch the phone off completely.
So all those new things beyond TV license, utility bills, a phone bill (and tax) I just want as minimal/optional as possible. I don't want them tied to an app... because if someone can screw them up it will be me.
FWIW I don't get notifications from my banking app. I occasionally get an email telling me that a statement can be viewed online or that there has been some change to the T&Cs and a link to where I can read them. I don't think that either of those are time critical in any way and I rarely follow the link provided.
I also understand that you don't "trust yourself" to get it right and that it's no use everyone telling you otherwise 🙂
Yes I get no notifications from my Barclays app and I don't need them, there's nothing I really need to know. They do email me about important stuff. Sometimes there are new app T&C's to accept but I only see those when I log in which is rarely. I don't read them, I trust the bank. Naively perhaps but whatever. As long as they give me my money and don't rob me I'm ok.
Has that ever happened in the history of like the last 30 years?
I’ve had “FINAL CHANCE – PEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETAILS NOW” from pension.
That isn't what I asked.
Cougar keeps asking why I’m obsessed with TOS/T&C etc. and one reason is I keep getting screwed over on them.
Hang on. I didn't 'keep' asking anything, I asked once and you immediately denied it. Right there. ☝
I’m the sort of person (maybe you are) that gets bike insurance and gets the Gold/Platinum lock then when it comes to claim the fine print say’s you need proof of purchase of the lock..
But you would have proof of purchase if you paid with a card or an app rather than cash, the transaction will be on your bank account.
Apps.. just keep changing the TOS and T&C’s… and have dependencies (such as OS and OS updates).
But again... so what?
There's a difference between diligently pouring over the legalese when taking out a will, and when installing a printer driver. No?
4) walking cycling distance branch in most UK towns
Around where I live, Chippenham in Wiltshire, most of the nearby towns have lost their banks, but Chippenham still has Lloyds, NatWest and I think Midland, as well as Halifax and possibly TSB. This is handy, because I can still phone my account manager on her mobile if there’s a problem, get an appointment and pop in and have a face to face conversation with her, which is brilliant. I’ve been with the bank, Lloyds, since the very early 70’s, and I consider my account manager to be a friend, she’s been helping me sort stuff out for years.
Are you sure? – you can do both those things over the counter with cash in a post office.
Even more interesting … I did look on our council website for “how to pay” and that wasn’t mentioned anywhere.
I used to pay my council tax over the PO counter, I still have the plastic card issued to my late stepfather that he used to use, and I just carried on with it.
In the end, it was just so much easier to set up a DD through the council’s website, then I know it’s always been paid - I have a separate account set up by my account manager specifically to handle all DD’s and standing orders, and a certain amount goes in when my wages go into my account.
So here’s the thing on the pension letter… the “FINAL CHANCE – PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETALS BELOW” one.
It’s actually got a handwritten note on it saying “By phone 4 Dec – letter in post in 30 days” which strongly makes me thing I called the number on 4 Dec and was told I’d be receiving a letter by 3rd Jan (excluding XMAS post)Obviously I didn’t… or did it mean I had to submit some letter by post within 30 days… (I don’t think so but not 100%) so regardless I kicked myself up the ass after your link (thank you) and called them again and got a email/set up and have access. So I screwed up… should have got back to them…
Now I know which pension this actually is it reveals ANOTHER screw up… me failing to check.
You want to be communicated with via post. They write (/email) to you going "look, this is really important!" And despite your protestations about intrusive notifications you still managed to screw it up. Twice.
I would respectfully suggest to you that perhaps your system doesn't work. You're rejecting methodologies which would solve a good deal of the issues you're complaining about. Are you related to my girlfriend? She eschews technology like online calendars in favour of writing things down, which is fine and all, but then she doesn't write it down. She won't use a password manager but will instead write down passwords, except she'll write 47 passwords down on 47 different random scraps of paper, 46 of which she'll immediately lose. Being a technophobe is perfectly feasible if your alternative is effective. Is yours? How difficult is it to carry a goddamn notepad?
Cougar
But again… so what?
There’s a difference between diligently pouring over the legalese when taking out a will, and when installing a printer driver. No?
Yes and no ... it's a continuum and granting access to my bank account/pensions is over at the taking out a will end.
I mean technically you could end up on some ink subscription for the printer but that's at least not life changing sums and you could cancel then use the ink.
The last time I had money illegally withdrawn from my account I had a right pain getting it back but more importantly I had to prove I hadn't done anything wrong or failed to do something and had abided by their T&C's.
All the details I ever got despite repeated requests was it was someone had used an "emergency cash app" ..
In this instance I was able to prove fairly convincingly I was in the US/mid Atlantic and physically not at the ATM's they claimed. What I wanted to know was how my account was compromised.. did that mean my pin was compromised, my account details etc. etc. and they just point blank refused to provide any details beyond a crime reference number.
As a result of not knowing WHAT was compromised or HOW I closed every account and reopened new accounts.
I hadn't asked for this new service (emergency cash) - opted in or been given any choice about it.
Each new account I put explicit instructions that the ONLY remote access was via chip and pin and I didn't want ANY access via a APP. This has been completely ignored, they added a contactless despite my explicit instructions to the contrary and they won't allow me to remove contactless without the App!
They still made me say no-one had access to my pin and go through every transaction for ages one by one. [Whilst stood on a station in Paris - giving personal identifying information in one of the worst places in Paris to do that] looking for an excuse not to repay yet it turns out this was a known vulnerability they know all about and they could easily have taken the time I was in the US blanket to know non of the physical transactions were me and the use of my physical card in the US as proof the card was with me. (Yes I spent $5 at a food place in Vegas ... Yes I paid for the shuttle bus when I landed... all the time in between what do they think I was doing? )
I put up with that in the hope they could reactivate my card so I could at least buy a ticket to the airport to get the flight and pay a taxi at the other end... [It was only luck I was in a city I could actually walk to a mates work and borrow some cash otherwise I'd have been completely stuffed - I could have been in Ushuaia]
So why am I worried about T&C/TOS .. lets say someone takes a life changing amount from my account and the bank uses the excuse I didn't upgrade to the last version or acknowledge some message they sent through the App not to repay me?
But you would have proof of purchase if you paid with a card or an app rather than cash, the transaction will be on your bank account.
You have a record of a transaction... that's not necessarily the same as proof of purchase.
The bigger the amount the more likely they are to be restrictive in what they consider proof of purchase.
£100 bike << cost of lock sure.... 3x£10k bikes ??
footflaps
If that really is the case, which I doubt, then your employer is just utterly crap in more ways than one….
It was all automated ... and any "human" firewalls were someone didn't know you from Adam pressing OK...
Reversing it was extremely manual ... AND involved a lot of time for you and your line manager and their line manager who all had to do it essentially in their OWN time in order to not fall foul of the auto KPI's themselves.
Real conversation with an ex line manager (a year or so after the fact and after he left the company) was "I had to get rid of everyone at a certain grade in my group" - I clicked the OK to transfer you and that's all I know.. I thought someone would tell you about it.
So this change then changed my KPI's .. reporting to someone in a third country... (original manager was in the US) so the first thing I knew was being pinged emails as to why I hadn't done some required web form for some vertical department I didn't even know I was part of.
Obviously I don’t know you from Adam, but the pop phycologist in me would suggest a diagnosis of techno-phobia
See above^^
So they could have a card reader ???
They could, but it's exclusionary. If you're going to accept payments (as a public body) you've got to accept cash, cheque card...the whole thing. Or not at all. They don't want to handle the cheques and cash, so cards are excluded also.
It's the same with the NT car park, the decision was probably financial, if you accept coins, someone's got to empty the parking meter every night (dangerous for some auld biddy in the dark) count the coins, separately bag them, take them all down to the local bank branch...oh no wait...! Go to the branch in the next large town over sorry...All of that over the entire NT network probs costs large amounts of money. So install a parking App, Yes for first time users it's going to be a PITA but like @Cougar says, once you've got the app it's a piece of cake to use.Plus a side benefit is reduction in paper use.
Indeed and in the NT's case the more money they save on that kind of admin the more they can spend on conservation. The same is true of other businesses - when they automate either we pay less or they can do other things better.
Intrigued how you are booking flights for these foreign jaunts, I can only assume it’s by walking to the The airline’s HQ with sacks of peppercorns. “my good man, I have come to reserve a transatlantic crossing…” etc.
I jest of course, but the example highlights a point. Judicious use of technology benefits us all. it’s about educating yourself, deciding what you need and being disciplined enough to stick to that, whilst of course keeping an eye on ‘new’ stuff that might benefit you. It doesn’t have to be exhausting. Saying ‘no tech’ on a purely dogmatic basis is illogical.
stingmered
I jest of course, but the example highlights a point. Judicious use of technology benefits us all. it’s about educating yourself, deciding what you need and being disciplined enough to stick to that, whilst of course keeping an eye on ‘new’ stuff that might benefit you. It doesn’t have to be exhausting. Saying ‘no tech’ on a purely dogmatic basis is illogical.
Yeah but that's what I'm trying to do. It's just my emphasis is a bit on **strictly need** vs gets pushed on me.
nickc
They could, but it’s exclusionary. If you’re going to accept payments (as a public body) you’ve got to accept cash, cheque card…the whole thing. Or not at all. They don’t want to handle the cheques and cash, so cards are excluded also.
I'm not disputing that's the case, I'm just saying its bollox if the answer to being discriminatory/non exclusionary is to make it more discriminatory / exclusionary??
It’s the same with the NT car park, the decision was probably financial,
Indeed and in the NT’s case the more money they save on that kind of admin the more they can spend on conservation.
In the NT's case they are excluding what I'd guess is a higher than average percentage of people not having modern enough phones or ones with the right OS.
footflaps
If that really is the case, which I doubt, then your employer is just utterly crap in more ways than one….
So a different perspective...
Lets take something I can discuss... as I never worked for the Post Office and don't have an NDA with them and something you can verify yourself.
So a bunch of people put in a new system for post offices.
The postmasters didn't ask for it...
Many knew it was faulty...
The system was pretty bad at maths so some money was lost
Many knew it was faulty...
People who knew full well it was the system then started criminal proceedings against the victims
Many victims lost their livelyhoods
Many victims suffered horrible stress
Some victims committed suicide
Some victims ended up in prison
All along whilst people were having breakdowns, committing suicide and in court being sentenced other people knew it was all due to a faulty system BUT did NOTHING
I think we can both agree the PO is/was "just utterly crap in more ways than one"... and the system was simply a system, the processes and everything around it had broken down.
If you want to get all POP phycologist and join me in speculation ..
The people who had screwed up (in IT) would seem not to have had a way of holding their hands up.. right at the beginning of the rollout.
those post masters weren't so much real people as depersonalised unique ID's.
the higher up the knowledge the system was at fault went the less likely it was going to be acknowledged
So yeah totally crap... trying to fix a problem they may or may not even have had with IT not people and process.
All along whilst people were having breakdowns, committing suicide and in court being sentenced other people knew it was all due to a faulty system BUT did NOTHING
This is just one more tragic ****-up and cover-up along with all the others, regardless of whether or not 'tech' was involved.
So yeah totally crap… trying to fix a problem they may or may not even have had with IT not people and process.
This problem was absolutely a 100% people problem not a tech one. As most 'tech' problems are.
make it more discriminatory / exclusionary??
Not really, you just can't pay it at the council office is all, you can pay your council tax with any form of payment at the post office counter.
In the NT’s case they are excluding what I’d guess is a higher than average percentage of people not having modern enough phones or ones with the right OS.
The average age of the NT membership is 55 - probably not as old as you guessed? I'm going to guess and suggest that most 55 year old can download an app, and make a payment for their parking on it.
are you sure it was actually a national trust operated car park. as every single one I've ever been to you just scan your membership card or its coins...
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/services/help-centre/car-parking-faqs
NickC
I’m going to guess and suggest that most 55 year old can download an app, and make a payment for their parking on it.
I'm not sure what you mean by "can" here? Maybe a ternary diagram...
At one point mentally capable of doing so at the other simply don't want to and the other have the correct and modern enough and updated device.
I obviously couldn't at the time because my phone wasn't modern enough and I wasn't even 55 then ... likewise the lady who was already discussing with the ranger when I joined.
I suppose to be pedantic nothing was stopping me driving to a town and buying a new phone that was sufficiently modern and getting a SIM that would fit and setting it up with a means of payment... but in the context of them losing the business I don't think that's realistic. Once I drive away to go purchase this phone to all intents and purposes they lost that £5 or whatever.
To be more realistic ... I'll just park on the street then or avoid NT car parks etc.
Put simply being able to pay at this NT car park is in no way a compelling reason for the expense and inconvenience of getting rid of my otherwise "works for me" phone to replace with another.
The average age of the NT membership is 55 – probably not as old as you guessed?
Quite a bit younger TBH .. perhaps that is because they are actively driving away older members who used to get membership in person at a NT shop or cafe and are now being told to do it online?
Perhaps it's deliberate and they found older people spend less in the cafe and shops and really don't want them in the way or perhaps they didn't think it through?
I did scan the link from Jambo (which turns out is for members) and then looked at Membership. I didn't see any mention of how to join in person. Maybe its there but its certainly not easy to find.
The point of all the above is even organisations like the NT are making life difficult for people who don't want a phone or internet.
I'm going to answer Molgrips with why I don't like that.. so if you are genuinely interested not just arguing for the sake of it read that as well.
Molgrips
This is just one more tragic ****-up and cover-up along with all the others, regardless of whether or not ‘tech’ was involved.
This problem was absolutely a 100% people problem not a tech one. As most ‘tech’ problems are.
I'm totally onboard that this is just another... it's just the first one sprang to mind.
Sure some people have always done bad shit and been shits but technology often just amplifies that and to an extent creates it.
Here we have a "people might be passing a parking ticket to someone else" argument. I don't even know if it is a huge problem/loss of revenue or as the same person then said something like they doubt they check anyway.
Given we don't know if this is a clear problem of lost revenue its a bit of guess work but chucking tech at this doesn't seem like its going to solve it when people can just not go, park elsewhere etc.
Equally the membership average age, I'll take as true... when I used to park in NT car parks I'd see a fairly mixed demographic I suppose (and I'm not checking who is a member and who isn't) but some family memberships might drag it down ??
The thing really is why would membership average age be 55 and has that changed as they technologified ?
For me the NT has always been a bit of a mixed bag.. but on balance it's something I put into the "happy enough to pay if the money is going to the NT". That completely shifts if my perception is they are trying to drive away older people. They can justify this financially perhaps ... Maybe they want to get rid of the ones who abuse the system by using free parking for members and then buying a cup of tea and taking up a table for hours as they nurse it?
Of course in that scenario that is probably not how "they" see it.... and what they probably have is a load of data that is presented as revenue not people.... the people working in the cafe probably don't but see the old guy or gal who comes in because they are lonely at home and can barely afford the cuppa as abusing the system... they see a person.
The tech is what depersonalises that.
Sure it's more efficient as a cash cow... but I don't believe that makes it a better world.
Jumping back to people always did bad shit... again I see more people doing bad shit of a bigger scale.
People having their entire pension stolen, scams on people's bank accounts etc. and some "arms war" over increased security to prevent this.
I just won't want "in" if it crosses my red lines.
I'll take the inconvenience of tapping in a pin code for example
If I can pay CT by DD that's convenient right up to I can only set that up from an account that doesn't force me to accept services I don't want.
Each step makes it more pervasive and less optional and these "services" are being added without asking if people want them. I didn't ASK for the emergency cash service... it was added without my consent then it was abused somehow and I was put into a position of having to prove it wasn't me whilst they looked for a way to not pay me back.
People will continue to do bad shit... I just don't want tech or services that makes it easy for them and then a load of faff and accepting TOS that unless I do X,Y,Z the bank aren't responsible for paying back.
I don't want that "you failed to acknowledge the notification so we are not refunding you" argument with them and them pointing to a TOS I accepted when I upgraded a mandatory upgrade.
I’m not sure what you mean by “can” here? Maybe a ternary diagram…
At one point mentally capable of doing so at the other simply don’t want to and the other have the correct and modern enough and updated device.
Turn that around. If "simply don't want to" is a valid argument, I simply don't want to use cash. I don't carry it any more, I'm far more likely to be standing in an unfamiliar carpark with my phone than a pocketful of coins. In fact, the only reason I'd have change on me is if I'd previously had to break my emergency tenner that day.
Conversely I can open the app, it knows which car park I'm in via GPS, I tick the box that says "two hours please" and job jobbed. It'll also alert me when the time is running out so I don't accidentally overstay.
I appreciate this is probably your idea of hell but my point is simply this: choice is good. From an end user convenience point of view, a meter offering cash payments AND contactless AND an app is surely the best of all worlds.
Put simply being able to pay at this NT car park is in no way a compelling reason for the expense and inconvenience of getting rid of my otherwise “works for me” phone to replace with another.
In isolation perhaps not. And y'know, that's fine, but as we've said before that's your choice and you can't have it both ways. If you want to run modern apps then you need a modern phone; if you don't want a modern phone then you can't use modern apps.
You're arguing that you're being "forced" to upgrade your ZX Spectrum to play FIFA 2022. You aren't at all, you're just stuck playing Match Day. Your choice.
perhaps that is because they are actively driving away older members who used to get membership in person at a NT shop or cafe and are now being told to do it online?
I highly doubt that they're "actively" doing anything of the sort.
I haven't been to an NT property since the pandemic so things may have changed now (perhaps even because of the pandemic) but outside of standalone carparks like the one at the Langdales I don't think I've ever been to one that didn't have someone in a little hut shilling for membership. Plus they always ask non-members about membership when you pay on the door for one-off entry to somewhere.
I'm speculating of course, but I'd have thought that the number of existing members who are now unable to renew their membership because of the (hypothetical or actual?) situation you describe is vanishingly low; most long-term members will likely be on direct debit and the NT sends out paper renewal reminders in the post.
If I can pay CT by DD that’s convenient right up to I can only set that up from an account that doesn’t force me to accept services I don’t want.
...
I don’t want that “you failed to acknowledge the notification so we are not refunding you” argument with them and them pointing to a TOS I accepted when I upgraded a mandatory upgrade.
You do realise, don't you, just how irrational and paranoid all this sounds?
I take your point, I do. You've had a couple of bad experiences and that's left you - perfectly understandably - jaded and cynical if not outright fearful about the whole thing. But please understand, these are outliers, your experience is atypical. The reason you had a shit time with your bank is nothing to do with 'services' but because you had a shit bank.
I just looked into your "emergency cash" thing. As a reminder, you said earlier:
I had a new service put on my account without asking… some “emergency cash” thing.
First thing I knew I was on Gare du Nord station mid business trips (literally between Vegas and South of France) unable to buy a ticket to the airport, money out or get a taxi etc. because my card was frozen.I then had a load of phoning the number.. being transferred and being asked for personal information in what is probably not the best possible place in the world to be putting down bags and doing so… non of which unblocked the card and had I not been in a city that I had friends in walking distance who could lend me money I’d have been completely stuffed.
I got a crime reference number and eventually refunded but no further details ever as to what the scam had been.
After that I asked my account have all remote access taken away without a card reader.I’ve since had several fake calls pretending to be from bank security faking the phone number… so on balance that’s why I want to keep away from remote banking.
The emergency cash service is only available after you card has been reported as lost or stolen. This then is, presumably, why your card was frozen - nothing to do with the emergency cash service you're complaining about but because it'd been reported lost somehow. Maybe someone had gone through your bins and found an old statement or something? 🤷♂️
If your card is reported stolen, typically the only course of action offered by a bank is for them to reissue a new card to your home address. If instead you want to unblock the card in your hand, it's not just understandable but essential that they have to make sure that you clear their security questions; for all they know the card was actually stolen, by you, and now you're trying to blag them into enabling it. Would you rather they went "terribly sorry sir, we've unblocked your card now" without further challenge to a pickpocket who's trying to buy an airline ticket? Hey, on reflection maybe your bank weren't all that shit after all.
"had I not been in a city that I had friends in walking distance who could lend me money I’d have been completely stuffed." - well, no, you could have used the app to generate a one-time code so that you could avail yourself of their emergency cash service. 😁
Your fake calls are almost certainly unrelated to any of this. Everyone gets them, the scammers are just chancers who are wardialling phone numbers.
I mentioned earlier that something similar happened to me. This is how it played out for me:
I was on my way home the following morning after a night out. I'd stopped at a Motorway services when my phone rang. My bank's fraud department. They'd flagged up that I'd made a payment in the city centre, then another from like 20 miles away five minutes later.
She asked if I had my card. I said yes of course I... oh, no, wait, no I don't! It took me a minute to piece together why. I was travelling light last night so hadn't taken my wallet, I'd just stuck my card in my back pocket. At some point it must have fallen out, maybe I'd accidentally dragged it out with my phone or hotel keycard or something.
She went through recent transactions. Beers last night, yep. Sandwich from M&S, yep. KFC in the city this morning, no that wasn't me, nor was something else. Coffee from Starbucks in the services just now, yep, that was me, I paid with my phone.
Not a problem sir, we've refunded those fraudulent transactions and cancelled your card, your replacement will be with you in a couple of days. Have a nice day.
This summer I dropped my debit card on the train, I was only off the train 5 minutes but because I had my phone with the Barclays App I could instantly freeze/cancel it and have another one at home in a few days. I also have it ping me every transaction which I find better than going through a statement and gives me immediate notice of any odd activity.
I've been with Barclays for 40 years now and having moved have also had 6 different branches in all that time not one problem, perhaps I'm lucky or Steve is unlucky?
As for NT car parks I parked in Longshaw Estate on Sunday and the machine took Cash, Cards App payment or free if you scanned your NT membership.
I think if you embrace the technology it can really make your life easier. An example was last week when my son came home having lost his debit card...well, he thinks he lost it, it may be in his jeans pocket that he left at his mates house or in his mums car as she picked him up. Neither of them were answering their phones so we used the app to temporarily freeze the card until we could find it. 2 days later it was found so we used the app to unfreeze the card.
Nice and easy, not to mention being able to check the app to see if there were any transactions that he wasn't expecting.
The idea of having to go into the council office or bank to do something that I could do from my phone with a beer in my hand at a time that suits me is just madness.
Cougar
I just looked into your “emergency cash” thing.
Nope you just looked into the current TOS not the TOS when it happened.
Two points on this
a) This is why I don't like those changing T&C/TOS being applied by default.
b) Basically - no I didn't cancel.. I was told to go to the nearest Branch (Jersey) so the rest is just what you are basing it on the TOS/T&C today...
I can't show you the TOS at the time because they are gone and as I never used the "emergency cash" service (I didn't ask for) I can't say how it worked as a consumer at the time either.
She went through recent transactions. Beers last night, yep. Sandwich from M&S, yep. KFC in the city this morning, no that wasn’t me, nor was something else.
But that only happened because you have contactless... if not the card would have been useless to the average joe or jill and you'd have got home and had lots of time to discover and cancel before it found its way (if it ever did) into organised crime.
Your bank were refunding a few pounds to one person, wheras at the time (and pre them changing the TOS however many times) this was a BIG SCAM that I understand affected tens of thousands .. from memory I got taken for best part of £1000 so they were potentially mitigating against 10,000 or more people at £1,000 each
Your fake calls are almost certainly unrelated to any of this. Everyone gets them, the scammers are just chancers who are are dialling phone numbers.
For you these are unrelated because your account is already "open".
Same as you losing the card ^^ no-one not a "professional" in card security working in organised crime would have been able to use it if it wasn't already opened up for contactless no pin transactions.
I'm happy to type 4 numbers (or 6 even) ..
My point here is
I appreciate this is probably your idea of hell but my point is simply this: choice is good. From an end user convenience point of view, a meter offering cash payments AND contactless AND an app is surely the best of all worlds.
Yep so I'm happy with a debit card with pin and authorising transactions with it.
What I'm not happy with is contactless or other services I don't ask for being put onto my account and then told I have to subscribe to ANOTHER service (App) I don't want to remove (if it even can be removed).
Has the bank asked "Do you want to opt into this emergency cash" thing I'd almost certainly have declined
If they asked "Do you want to opt into this new way to use your account that we can vary the TOS by sending you a notification in the App" then I very very much don't want it.
This rarely works out another thread just reminded me of a "SCAM" by Bracknell forest... I'm sticking scam in quotes.
So for a time an error on contactless led to people being charged twice for Swinley parking.
That's sort of fair enough if a bit shit... mistakes happen and all. The (quotes) SCAM is Bracknell (Unitary Authority) knew about it but only refunded those who noticed and then asked. It didn't just recredit those who hadn't noticed. (With the risk 1-2 people might have paid for 2 cars and losing their £3.50)
So in this case YOU (being fully bought in) would at some point have got 2 notifications on some App or other on your phone you were carrying... (presumably 1/2 way round when you got signal 😉 ) got back and gone on their website to find some way to file a complaint and be paid back etc.
I wouldn't because I'd have paid by cash or chip and pin.
So I don't mind at all if you want to wave a phone or pin-less so long as the option to pay in a way i feel comfortable with the consequences of using are maintained.
Cougar
I highly doubt that they’re “actively” doing anything of the sort.
I haven’t been to an NT property since the pandemic so things may have changed now (perhaps even because of the pandemic) but outside of standalone carparks like the one at the Langdales I don’t think I’ve ever been to one that didn’t have someone in a little hut shilling for membership. Plus they always ask non-members about membership when you pay on the door for one-off entry to somewhere.
I’m speculating of course, but I’d have thought that the number of existing members who are now unable to renew their membership because of the (hypothetical or actual?) situation you describe is vanishingly low; most long-term members will likely be on direct debit and the NT sends out paper renewal reminders in the post.
I haven't been on one (in that way) since they required App payment at Hindhead. Since then I park down the road and cycle through the car park.
Again you are mixing unable and unwilling a bit...
If “simply don’t want to” is a valid argument, I simply don’t want to use cash.
Sure they can set up online payment... it's just many older people don't want to because they don't want what to them is hassle
And yes... my endearing memories of NT days out
that didn’t have someone in a little hut shilling for membership. Plus they always ask non-members about membership when you pay on the door for one-off entry to somewhere.
but I can't find anywhere on their website (admittedly being updated) that says "You can join at".
The one I interact with most is probably Leith Hill Tower .. I can't even get into the parking with the van but I do like a coffee at the cafe in the tower but I can't remember any "membership" stuff there in ages.