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I'm trying to find a bank that caters for technophobes
1) doesn't require me to have a smartphone (this is the biggest and absolute requirement)
2) I can pay DD etc. for council tax, bills (unless there is a different way I'm missing like pre-paid cards)
3) doesn't require internet access or email at all (nice to have) but doesn't send anything by email I have to respond to
4) walking cycling distance branch in most UK towns
My main aim is to get rid of my smartphone ASAP then progressively get rid of all tech from my life.
Ironically I'm searching online to find a bank ... which doesn't seem the best idea but I need to make this first step.
More ironically I'm asking an internet forum... but I really don't have any better ideas and surely someone has elderly relatives who don't have internet or smart phones.
Nationwide is possible without using a smartphone app. I do use internet banking with them but I’m fairly sure you could manage without. Branch coverage isn’t most towns but probably most larger towns.
The most basic Nationwide account can be used without internet access I think. You don’t get a cheque book if that is important to you
https://www.nationwide.co.uk/current-accounts/flexbasic/
Like MrPaul, I have an account, the next one up in their range the Flexaccount, and whilst I do use their app I didn’t for quite a while and I never get emails that demand action from them so it may work for you and you do get a cheque book-which I haven’t ever used. ask at a local branch?
You'll struggle and be excluding yourself from the best products/services.
If Banks were left to their own devises, they would shut all of their branches tomorrow.
The only reason Branches generally exist are to fulfil their regulatory obligations.
(Spent a number of years working for one of the big 4, on a Branch closure programme)
If just walk into your local bank/post office and see what the basic account is.
They all have to offer something, but expect to be put on the worst product.
walking cycling distance branch in most UK towns
that'll stop you - most branches from all banks near here have shut down, and will continue to do so. Post office is the only thing likely to have a significant footprint in a few years time.
afaik no high street bank requires a smartphone - you can access most services over the internet or phone. Maybe take a look at someone like saga and see if they have advice for other technophobes?
Nationwide sounds good..I know we have one currently.
At some point when my son goes to Uni/work I plan to move out of towns completely but that's another 5yrs so I'm trying to incrementally get rid of my dependence on tech
Chew
You’ll struggle and be excluding yourself from the best products/services.
I don't really want any products or services...
I'd be happier with no bank at all but then I'd not be able to pay utilities/council tax.
So far as I can see all I need to be able to do is pay these at the minimum cost?
I don’t really want any products or services…
A bank account is a product/service. A bank account with a better interest rate or lower fees is a better product/service.
Why the total detachment from tech? Living in the countryside can be hard work, and expensive. A little tech might save you an awful lot of physical effort and hassle in that situation.
If Banks were left to their own devises, they would shut all of their branches tomorrow.
Banks, maybe, but then Nationwide isn't a bank.
https://www.nationwide.co.uk/about-us/branch-promise/
You are more likely to find a rural Post Office than a branch of any specific bank so I'd consider that your best option.
Co op and use post offices?
Banks, maybe, but then Nationwide isn’t a bank.
Despite my many attempts over 5 years, they refused to let me have a debit card for a flexaccount I had with them, cash card only. Could be just up OPs street.
4) walking cycling distance branch in most UK towns
What does that mean? - how many towns are you typically needing do face to face banking in? Within walking/cycling distance from where?
I think as a long term plan expecting any physical branches in any given town to still be there within a few years is a bit hopeful. Every physical bank in the towns surrounding me has gone in the last 10 years. The post office is a better bet but many of them are closing and being replaced by a little counter in a convenience store with quite reduced services, staffed by someone who has to also cover the checkout and only seems to half know what they're doing - but basic banking is something they'll probably still do if the Post Office is still managing to provide that model in years to come.
Co op and use post offices?
Post offices are fine for withdrawal and deposits - but If you ever need to do any actually face to face backing co-op branches are very few and far between. I've got a co-op (smile) account and theres only one physical branch in Scotland.
I would go with Nationwide too. More branches left, less ‘banky’ to deal with. Although I think their post office counter services might be limited, no deposits?
Co op and use post offices?
What makes you recommend the co-op?
Just find a bank which does telephone banking and live near a phone box
https://www.nationwide.co.uk/about-us/branch-promise
Looks like Nationwide is your best bet at the moment but after 2024 who knows
...then progressively get rid of all tech from my life
Why?
Found the coop very easy to deal with on the phone. Uk call centres etc. Plus where ethical at one point
My old non app Natwest account excluded me from all deals, soon as I started with app I got the 5% interest teaser account, savings products.
It really puts pensioners who don't use smartfones at a disadvantage.
It really puts pensioners who don’t use smartfones at a disadvantage.
it may, but people who insist on doing banking in person or even on the phone put the banks at a disadvantage. There's a higher cost of business running high streets & call centres vs a journey that is self-service, and its not bad that the cost is reflected in the products available to you (in the same way that takeaway food is cheaper than eating in with some caffs)
Surely the best way to decide is to walk/cycle to your nearest bank?
Most of them will without online banking, my OH refuses to do online banking for whatever reasons, HSBC just send her statements in the post and she goes through them once a month. I'm sure most of the other more established banks will be the same.
Nationwide. IIRC you are close to Swinley? There are Nationwide branches in Bracknell and Wokingham, unfortunately they closed the Crowthorne branch a couple of years ago. Personally though I think you are swimming against the tide, it's just a matter of time before technology is unavoidable. We are almost there already IMO.
Ok fair point, best products go to app clients. I hate going into bank branches, takes ages.
I think for the OP its going to be a bit of an uphill battle.
I've just been on a 3 hour **** about over transferring utilities to a new address. The problem being British Gas and their website and customer service being an absolute shitshow. They're in the progress of migrating customers and address to an 'new energy platform' and half the accounts have migrated but half haven't and its all chaos - one property is in the old system, one property in the new and the two systems don't seem to know the other exist - but in the middle of it all when talking to an actual human they said "this new platform will be digital only - we'll be gone - customers will only be able to interact via web and app"
So I think part of the the OP's post tech existence he'll need to stock up on candles and firewood 🙂
4) walking cycling distance branch in most UK towns
Most Hight Street Banks are busy getting rid of their branch, RBS (for instance) closed down it's Manchester city centre branch pretty recently. Some of them allow you to use other banks for deposits and stuff, but generally speaking this trend is not going to reverse. Even if you find a bank that provides a branch now close to you, there;s zero guarantee it will still be open in a years time (or less)
stwhannah
Why the total detachment from tech?
shark attack
Why?
Short answer is it makes me unhappy ....
stwhannah
Living in the countryside can be hard work, and expensive. A little tech might save you an awful lot of physical effort and hassle in that situation.
Appreciated, my mum is an Octogenarian and managing ... though I appreciate what you're saying.
I'm not thinking no electricity type "no tech" as this is more or less retirement
tonyd
Nationwide. IIRC you are close to Swinley?
Yep but we have one closer (at least at the moment)
tomhoward
A bank account is a product/service.
I appreciate from their perspective they feel it is... from mine it's a tax.
thisisnotaspoon
Surely the best way to decide is to walk/cycle to your nearest bank?
Possibly but my experience is they keep pushing/changing the goal posts... hence a bit how I find myself here.
poolman
My old non app Natwest account excluded me from all deals, soon as I started with app I got the 5% interest teaser account, savings products.
It really puts pensioners who don’t use smartfones at a disadvantage.
So weirdly... I get a nagging email from NatWest... I have this "My Rewards" money (4 figures) and I have to take some action.
The REASON I have that accrued is because I never got the log-in to work... (going back years)...
Change password/rejected/3 tries and your account is blocked threats.... So I click the "contact" .. spend 30 mins "talking" to a lovely bot.. I just want to stop it sending me emails... Cora, the lovely bot says I need to close my accounts ... "OK fine, lets do that". Transferred to either a better bot or real person (hard to tell)... and reiterate I want to stop receiving these emails... directed to use the app.... said "I don't have access to a smartphone so please can I do it another way"... go round in circles and keep being told "You need to use the App"
Is there another way .... ?? etc. which was "you need to close those accounts"...
so I'm back where I started... looking for a bank doesn't keep trying to get me to use a smartphone.
How do you think government services are going to be delivered in the future (say 10-15 years out)? Are you expecting taxpayers (or bank shareholders) to fork out unnecessary infrastructure costs (like keeping offices open to the public) so you can indulge in your “no tech” fantasy?
Same way they were delivered before.... I presently have no intention of living another 10-15 years anyway.
Maybe you could be happier if you engaged with the tech rather than tried to fight it, sounds like trying to avoid it is going to make you even more mad as you find it increasingly difficult to do anything. For most people it makes life a lot easier so the trend will continue. You have every right to reject it but there will be consequences.
from mine it’s a tax.
You are wrong.
go round in circles and keep being told “You need to use the App”
OK, one time solution: Do the thing that the bank want you to do; this one time. Get your money, move to another bank that won't force you down that route?
Get your kid to do it all for you?
As regards your NatWest issue, I'd suggest just taking the time to go into an actual branch. I appreciate that this might be out of your way and inconvenient but likely worth it as a one-off.
Longer term, I still think it's going to be increasingly difficult to avoid some sort of tech banking solution, especially if you decide to move to somewhere more rural as branch networks are getting increasingly sparse. It's certainly an issue where I live - or it would be if I needed to visit a branch regularly.
soundninjauk
Get your kid to do it all for you?
We aren't far off that at the moment... he's got the parents apps for cadets and school and does his own payments etc.
Scotroutes
As regards your NatWest issue, I’d suggest just taking the time to go into an actual branch. I appreciate that this might be out of your way and inconvenient but likely worth it as a one-off.
NickC
OK, one time solution: Do the thing that the bank want you to do; this one time. Get your money, move to another bank that won’t force you down that route?
Yeah, that's largely I think where I'm going.
The thing is I have to open an account to transfer the money as they won't let me withdraw it.
Rather than "randomly" choose another bank ends up doing the same I'm trying to determine the one with the lowest tech requirements so I don't end up in a rinse and repeat.
stumpyjon
Maybe you could be happier if you engaged with the tech rather than tried to fight it, sounds like trying to avoid it is going to make you even more mad as you find it increasingly difficult to do anything. For most people it makes life a lot easier so the trend will continue. You have every right to reject it but there will be consequences.
I appreciate what you're saying... (honestly) and backstory involves a lifetime working in tech and a fair deal of why I quit.
The thing is it's the "engaging" with it makes me feel ill and unhappy.
(from my perspective this is what I tried to do the other night... I thought right lets sort this out and an hour later I'd just gone in circles, achieved nothing and felt like shit.
from mine it’s a tax.
You are wrong.
That's my perception ... its how it FEELS to me.
I don't really want a bank account at all.. I just need one to pay council tax and utility bills... and that is a mandatory requirement. I don't want to "do stuff with it" so to speak...
The thing is I have to open an account to transfer the money as they won’t let me withdraw it.
Yeah, i thought that may be the case, Post office would've seemed ideal, but I think their current accts are closed. Have you looked at Credit Unions? Some of them offer current accts if you can join.
stevextc
The thing is it’s the “engaging” with it makes me feel ill and unhappy.
Could this be a symptom of deeper issues? FWIW I do actually get the annoyance of engagement, I used to look forward to buyjng new tech, now I see it as a chore, especially phones. One reason I stick to reconditioned Samsung's, I can just put them together and most of it happens automatically. I'm not an early adopter but have realised that's me holding me back. I took a long time to move to contactless, it's brilliant, even longer to move to using my phone (why did I not do that before, having the transaction on screen has saved me twice when I needed to prove a purchase and the till didn't give me a receipt). As for cloud computing, no thanks, until I realised it's cheap, it's a good backup I can access things anywhere, same with using Google and logging in, saves passwords etc. Yes they get my data but ultimately now I've stopped resisting life is genuinely better.
The bank thing, it is a service that costs, it's not a tax. There are many things in life I don't want but have to have, insurance being a good example, boiler servicing, car servicing, I don't want any of them and I could opt out (except car insurance) but the consequences aren't worth it.
Not trying to be flippant but just have a think about the real reason you want to withdraw, you're obviously not tech ileterate or incapable, your posts on here show that. I see parralellels with my Dad, hes now withdrawn from life effectively, started in his late 40s with some mental health issues, his coping mechanism when he was a bit better was to not engage with anything that made him anxious. He was lucky he had a teaching pension and got a job as a postie, good income, minimal responsibility. It's been a sad waste of the second half of his life. Probably not you but......
Oh final point, Natwest are a total shower of ****, trying to transfer my daughter's Natwest child trust fund when she turned 18 to her Natwest student account was a nightmare. They rejected stuff, struggled to talk to people, they wanted proof of identity 18 years olds don't have. Got there eventually but God it was hard. Lesson being don't use Natwest for anything, it's not just you.
I'm not very engaged with tech.. I don't have an especially high tech house at all, I don't have very many smart devices at all, but I do use what I need .. I use smart charging for my car, because it's cheaper, and I have an electric car as it's cheaper and more reliable. So I'm not actively scared. There are some other bits and pieces I use, but despite having worked for a couple software companies in my time, I'm not very engaged at all.
However I do use internet banking. I live out of town and going to a branch is a real p.i.t.a. I can do it faster, more easily via the internet. It's way easier, and as my bills are mostly debits, I don't really login much.
Rather than doing the absolute maximum to make your life difficult I'd also suggest figuring out how to make those limited interactions as stressless as possible.
Interestingly, out for a walk today and theres working going on in a building along the high street here- the Post Office opening a new 'Banking Hub' -had a quick look up to see what that means - they're a new initiative, operated by the Post Office but providing banking services on behalf of most of the high street banks.
Theres surprisingly little info about them online - least of all on the Post Office's site - but with 5000 bank branches having closed in the last few years it looks like thats how high street banking will maybe happen in the future.
I don’t really want a bank account at all.. I just need one to pay council tax and utility bills… and that is a mandatory requirement.
Are you sure? - you can do both those things over the counter with cash in a post office.
I bank with Nationwide, and would recommend them, they don’t hassle you with emails.
Only downside is that you can’t use them via the post office unlike all the other banks. Eg to pay cheques in.
Good luck.
Stumpyjon
Could this be a symptom of deeper issues?
Oh definitely but I have an NDA and it would be very difficult to go down the road of describing that without my former employer being apparent.
Best description I can give was tech was weaponised to really screw up people .. Not in a deliberate way .. or at least I don't think that was really the aim but a consequence of dehumanising and automatic KPI's etc.
I didn't work for Twitter so perhaps the best broad example might be the "you have 24 hours to respond to accept the new T&C's or you just quit" type thing. Not the best to start off with but then think about people who were on vacation that week... the expectation they checked their work email and read the T&C etc. etc. (I'm trying to generalise really broadly but that sort of thing without going down that rabbit hole)
Not trying to be flippant but just have a think about the real reason you want to withdraw, you’re obviously not tech ileterate or incapable, your posts on here show that. I see parralellels with my Dad, hes now withdrawn from life effectively, started in his late 40s with some mental health issues, his coping mechanism when he was a bit better was to not engage with anything that made him anxious.
There is definitely an aspect of that and you're not being flippant at all ... but there are also parallels with my Dad who just stopped being interested by new tech (many years before his Alzheimer's and other issues).
I can still remember not understanding why he wasn't interested in the latest tech.... and him just saying it just didn't interest him anymore.
The difference now is this tech is forced on us and requires engagement and I just don't want to engage.
Phone/OS updates etc. that then break some old app/program .. it's not I don't understand WHY some of the security updates are required... I just don't want to engage in kinda the same way I never liked or wanted to engage with football. I can understand some people do... and theoretically I could learn some names of players and managers in order to sound like I'm interested I'm just not interested and don't feel me spending time learning teams and stuff is very interesting so it would be a lot of hard work just to pretend I'm interested in something I'm not.
He was lucky he had a teaching pension and got a job as a postie, good income, minimal responsibility. It’s been a sad waste of the second half of his life. Probably not you but……
I can see what your saying but doing what makes you happier as opposed to something makes you sadder and anxious isn't necessarily a waste of "the second half of his life" - I know you don't mean that in a nasty way... I'd just say being less sad and even being able to say you're happy is a good thing in general.
maccruiskeen
Interestingly, out for a walk today and theres working going on in a building along the high street here- the Post Office opening a new ‘Banking Hub’ -had a quick look up to see what that means – they’re a new initiative, operated by the Post Office but providing banking services on behalf of most of the high street banks.
Theres surprisingly little info about them online – least of all on the Post Office’s site – but with 5000 bank branches having closed in the last few years it looks like thats how high street banking will maybe happen in the future.
That is actually interesting ... if only because I might not be such an oddity I'm perhaps not the only person in the UK
Are you sure? – you can do both those things over the counter with cash in a post office.
Even more interesting ... I did look on our council website for "how to pay" and that wasn't mentioned anywhere. I think it is on the utilities somewhere but my thoughts were if I have to pay the CT this way I might as well pay the utilities this way.
Maybe I should have started at the other end with "post office services" ??
Stevextc, thanks for taking my post constructively, I was a bit worried it would come across as patronising or insulting.
Regards my Dad, it wasn't the change of pace, it was the complete lack of any effort including with my kids, he is their grand father and I don't think the youngest would even recognise him now.
Anyway good luck, still think you need to find a middle way for maximum happiness, you can decide not to engage with football, it really doesn't have to be part of your life (its not very relevant to mine) but the electronic world is much more difficult to avoid.
Sorry to hear about the work related problems, something else I've also got some very unpleasent experience of, 2 totally toxic jobs resulting in a bit of a breakdown, luckily the role I'm in now is a lot better and the people I work for have actually helped me recover a bit. The irony being I now manage tens of thousands of pieces of connected tech across the country, something I have no experience or qualifications for (and no support from the IT professionals). So far nothing has gone up in flames (except the IT office which was gutted last year due to a faulty phone battery 😆) and they think im doing a good job.
Stumpyjon
Stevextc, thanks for taking my post constructively, I was a bit worried it would come across as patronising or insulting.
Not at all it came across as compassionate.
Anyway good luck, still think you need to find a middle way for maximum happiness, you can decide not to engage with football, it really doesn’t have to be part of your life (its not very relevant to mine) but the electronic world is much more difficult to avoid.
Largely that's what I'm trying to do... it sounds more drastic perhaps than my intention (and obviously on a internet forum where so many people are into tech) but I'm trying to restructure life so to speak to minimise tech as overall it makes me unhappy and more so the older I get.
[in some ways its ironic, I have a visual studio instance open right now with a whole bunch of code, connecting to a bunch of cloud but it's purely optional not something I "have to do" to be allowed into society... ]
Funny thing is in a previous job myself and a mate/colleague got a new manager and he'd constantly use football analogies... we were "expected to get" (as being male and English - except my mate was Welsh but hey ho).
something else I’ve also got some very unpleasent experience of, 2 totally toxic jobs resulting in a bit of a breakdown
Hope my advice was useful 😉 sounds like things improved massively anyway so I'm happy for you.
Perhaps it would be helpful to separate out "tech" from "function"?
Like, you're complaining about requiring a bank account to pay bills, right after expressing an interest to get away from it all. But surely the former empowers you to be able to do the latter? If you want to live on a farm with a sheep and a cow and breed horses, the more you can automate and thus forget about then the more viable that becomes.
It's not all that long ago I used to traipse into town every month to pay council tax, utilities etc and it was a pain in the cods. I regularly forgot, and the council in particular were dicks about it if you were a few days late in paying. Direct Debits gave me hours of my life back. Money comes in, money comes out, it may well involve "tech" but it requires zero engagement on my part.
Raging against the machine is perhaps laudable, but don't lose sight of what's actually important. Not wanting a smartphone I can totally understand; not wanting a bank account is flat out weird. What's the alternative, you become one of those mad old goats that gets taken for ten grand in a burglary because you had your life savings stashed in baked beans cans and shoeboxes?
I use Barclays and Lloyds. Both have closed some branches but as I rarely actually need them I don't care. My tech level is a debit card. The post office works to take out cash or put it in.
Otherwise I use no modern inventions.
Why bother with it? I get a paper statement every month so I know what I have. It costs me nothing to use. The day they charge me for using the account I'll leave.
Cougar
Like, you’re complaining about requiring a bank account to pay bills, right after expressing an interest to get away from it all. But surely the former empowers you to be able to do the latter? If you want to live on a farm with a sheep and a cow and breed horses, the more you can automate and thus forget about then the more viable that becomes.
I'm saying "ideally I'd not like a bank account" not I'm never going to have one but I'm exploring other options that let me pay bills and minimise my reliance on them.
Not wanting a smartphone I can totally understand; not wanting a bank account is flat out weird.
I had a Halifax account for ages after I started working (right up until it got turned into a clearing bank)... I'd be happy with an old style PO/building soc type account... or some "modern" day equivalent and some PAYG debit card to pay bills or shop online etc. (which is what I'm actually looking for)
Without getting into a discussion about "what is a service" and pulling out ITIL definitions what I'm really after is something used to call itself a PO or building society account or the closest modern equivalent and not trying to sell itself to me as "a service" or a whole load of services I get without wanting.
What I'm trying to avoid is the "You need to download our App to ..." as others have said above NatWest is shit in a lot of ways so I'm happy to move elsewhere ... but equally I don't want to play "bank solitaire" either and be swapping every year as new smartphone "requirements" get brought in.
you become one of those mad old goats
probably inevitable.... (or quite possibly too late)
Not wanting a smartphone I can totally understand
Perhaps it would be helpful to separate out “tech” from “function”?
Ultimately its not even about owning one.... it's more about the world not falling apart if I want to turn it off for a month or so or feeling anxiety about turning it back on.
It's not the tech of the phone I'm raging against... it's the way its used and expectations I should have one and it should be turned on and such.
A "smartphone" itself has loads of stuff I like and would like to use but it's the "cost" of having to switch it on and feel hounded by emails/messages etc that seem to all be written in a manner of a call to action.
I guess I was out with a mate a couple of weeks ago and he asked if I could video him on a feature .. I was "sure no probs" ... then I had a sinking/sick feeling about switching on my phone I'd deliberately turned off so I was "so long as I can use your phone - I don't want to turn mine on"
this. I am the biggest technophile going, absolutely not just for the sake of it or to show off, but because it improves my quality of life either by making it easier or more enjoyable or by giving me more free time to do other stuff. I know a lot of people on here don’t “get” that and never will, and there’s nothing wrong with that, I’m not really interested in arguing with people or trying to change their minds.Perhaps it would be helpful to separate out “tech” from “function”?
Likewise, I just will never understand where the OP is coming from - just to take the specific case of online banking, having the NatWest app on my phone has been a huge convenience & timesaver (cannot overstate just how much it helps running my business) but even just going out for a meal with mates or buying tickets etc or whatever being able to shoot someone an instant, secure payment via PayM is really handy!
We’re all different I guess 🤷♂️
(I would just say to OP though if you do actually have 4 figures worth of rewards in there, do make some effort to retrieve it, that’s real money that you’ve earned and they owe you so don’t let them get one over on you! Even if you don’t want/need it, you can take it out as cash or with a few extra % added as vouchers, turn it all into Morisons vouchers & give it to a food bank for example)
afaik no high street bank requires a smartphone
Barclays doesn't require you to use their App and the only emails they send me are ones to say they couldn't email me my bank statement as they don't have my email address (I get the same email every month from them).
It’s not the tech of the phone I’m raging against… it’s the way its used and expectations I should have one and it should be turned on and such.
I don't understand this at all - who / what demands it should be turned on?
Although my wife endlessly moans that I never answer my phone, which is always on silent and rarely actually with me...
Modern society demands. Apparently it is essential to be able to talk to every one you know as well as millions you don't NOW!We have to be able to order take away food etc NOW. Twaddle. Don't waste your money. Make it yourself.
I do own a mobile. A smart one. Only because my wife broke it and wanted one without a crack. It still works I think. It is only ued when I am expected to be outside M&S at a time margially different to that previously agreed.
Mobile phones are much the same as helmets or seat belts. Some interfering dimwit with a bit of power has decided that they are essential.
How about a different tack: accept that you need to have a bank account and that practically speaking that’s going to involve a smartphone. Get an account with an ethical eco small scale building society (there are a few online that you wouldn’t be able to access in person) that will do good/better things with your money, and accept it as a trade off that you’re making a positive choice rather than a profit making one. Set it up with a new email address and number, and don’t add any other stuff to your phone, so that it’s effectively a brick that you switch on when you want it and it’s not full of alerts and unpleasant surprises?
I have an iPhone but I've just disabled alerts / notifications for everything except phone calls (and then it's on silent). That way I can just it when I want eg check email, take photos on a walk, pay for food at a cafe and the rest of the time it doesn't disturb me at all.
I've done the same on my work PC, disabled / silenced all comms apps so I only see email etc if I actually open Outlook. Teams is on silent - don't hear any incoming calls etc.
Make technology work for you, not the other way round.
There's definitely a mindset thing. If I'm out riding/walking/whatever and my phone bleeps or rings I tend to ignore it until I reach a convenient point, or maybe just until I get home. I reckon if it's actually urgent then the caller will try again - repeatedly - and then I'd probably react. However, I know we're not all wired the same way and so I absolutely "get" that the same doesn't work for everyone.
A “smartphone” itself has loads of stuff I like and would like to use but it’s the “cost” of having to switch it on and feel hounded by emails/messages etc that seem to all be written in a manner of a call to action.
There's a world of difference between using a banking app and being hounded by emails. They are completely separate things. It is perfectly 100% possible and very simple to just not set up your email, or disable the app.
Make tech work for you - have it do the things you need and stop it doing the things you don't want it to do. You are in charge.
If I’m out riding/walking/whatever and my phone bleeps or rings
My phone is configured so that it only bleeps or rings when the things I want to know about happen - like my wife calling me with something important etc.
Yeah, but there are degrees of "important" 🙂
Simply don’t have your email account on your phone.
Or just turn off notifications. That’s what I do, I only find out if I have email if I go looking in the app, it won’t tell me otherwise.
I may have missed this, but how do you plan to receive money in the future? Salary, pension etc if the goal is no bank account?
Yup, I’ve effectively turned my iPhone into a dumb phone. Turned off most notifications, badges etc. Apps set to fetch messages, not have them pushed.
All the helpful stuff but on my terms.
Santander banking app, but never get any emails from them. Can set for paper statements if you want them. Very little reason to even open app if you don’t want to. Living in the country I couldn’t do without internet banking and online shopping.
a whole load of services I get without wanting.
... don't use them, then? What's the issue here?
What I’m trying to avoid is the “You need to download our App to …” as others have said above NatWest is shit in a lot of ways so I’m happy to move elsewhere … but equally I don’t want to play “bank solitaire” either and be swapping every year as new smartphone “requirements” get brought in.
Fair enough and totally understandable.
I think perhaps though that you're overestimating "requirements" - plenty of banks give you the option to use online banking and I expect that most would prefer that you did, but few if any make it mandatory.
A “smartphone” itself has loads of stuff I like and would like to use but it’s the “cost” of having to switch it on and feel hounded by emails/messages etc that seem to all be written in a manner of a call to action.
But this is a problem of your own devising. Your smartphone doesn't telepathically start receiving emails, let alone alerts, unless you've set that up in the first place.
You seem to be railing against things you can do rather than things you have to do.
Your smartphone doesn’t telepathically start receiving emails, let alone alerts, unless you’ve set that up in the first place.
I think it might. You give it a Google or iCloud Account and then it starts up binging you about emails. But it's 2 mins work to turn them all off, and I think you can disable/uninstall the GMail app or other aops so you can't even get them at all. On Android you can filter all notifications by app.
While I quite like the convenience of banking on a smart phone - I can just transfer money to say, my kids accounts with no 3rd party having to get involved and so on. I can see how they could be a PITA. However other than the fact that I can get to the account just with my thumb print to do all those things. I still mostly don't, I've set up DDs, pay goes in, and I still just prefer to use my bank card for transactions, so the amount of times I need to have my phone "for " banking is pretty limited, and I can still do everything via a pretty good customer service phone line - First Direct
I do get the OPs point though, there's so much stuff directed by 3rd parties to us all, that uses your smart phone as an interface, it's sometimes hard to differentiate between who's the customer, and who's the unpaid admin...
footflaps
That way I can just it when I want eg check email, take photos on a walk, pay for food at a cafe and the rest of the time it doesn’t disturb me at all.
Sounds idyllic 😉
I don’t understand this at all – who / what demands it should be turned on?
So outside of work (which I accept and have a separate phone for) examples off the top of my head are Cadets or School. GP ...
Cougar
… don’t use them, then? What’s the issue here?
So real example (and trying to follow some advice already given)... I've been meaning to try and disable contactless for a while... I didn't ask for it and don't really like the idea of losing my card/wallet (especially as I'd not even know for a week or more until I checked)
I did end up at the pub last week and had "lost" my card... total panic - it turned up in a back pocket of cycling shorts but someone could have spent quite a bit contactless in the meantime.
Google takes me
https://supportcentre.natwestinternational.com/Searchable/1719622502/How-do-I-turn-off-contactless-payments-on-my-debit-card.htm
(Summary: YOU HAVE TO USE THE APP)
So I don't have or want the App... which only way it tells me to do it and I just want to disable contactless
Still .. see bottom for this...
I also get theoretically I could just download the App for this one thing and delete it... except I probably can't.
If memory serves to activate the App I have to agree to lots of **stuff** and set passwords etc. etc.
(and as someone with a fair idea of the background tech this is exactly what I think happened to "My Rewards" .. at some point in the past I started setting it up... something came up and now its frozen in a infinite loop of reset password)
That **stuff** again if memory serves is just more **stuff** I don't want and will be very difficult to get rid of.
Anyway.. google predictive searches quickly showed me I'm not the ONLY person to want to switch off contactless.
Barclaycard
No, you can't switch it off. If you choose not to use contactless, you can simply continue to pay with Chip and PIN. However, there are many benefits to ...
Santander
You can turn off contactless payments on your debit or credit card at any time in our mobile app. Follow the steps below to get started.
Starling
Where to find it
In the app, go to the home screen and tap ‘Card’ at the bottom.
Cougar
I think perhaps though that you’re overestimating “requirements” – plenty of banks give you the option to use online banking and I expect that most would prefer that you did, but few if any make it mandatory.
I think you don't notice until you try and stop it.
It's not that long ago I'd turn off my personal phone when abroad to avoid roaming charges and I spent over 1/2 my life abroad not that long ago.
But this is a problem of your own devising. Your smartphone doesn’t telepathically start receiving emails, let alone alerts, unless you’ve set that up in the first place.
So going back... I'm not trying to just go live in a log cabin on an uninhabited island and forage mushrooms and milk the goats (quite yet) I'm trying to reduce the tech in my personal life and dependence on it (or if not reduce stop going deeper) as above I don't want to do "New Stuff" that then is made difficult for me to get rid of.
I don't ride some places (like the Bull Track anymore) as they require an App... but I do ride places need email and I have been known to order parts or similar.
Most of my riding buds know not to use instant messaging or social media stuff if I'm invited on a ride.. some I'm sure think it's a bit weird but they don't have to ride with me .. if they can be arsed they email me.
Also email is necessary for medical stuff... my rehab exercises (trying to get more movement out of a broken hand) are all emailed to me for example.
Tom Howard
I may have missed this, but how do you plan to receive money in the future? Salary, pension etc if the goal is no bank account?
I probably didn't express it well but that's really the point of this thread. (Or 1/2 of it .. at the moment its more about being able to access)
The question is maybe better described as "What's the closest to my old Building Society passbook"
I used to have a Halifax account and salary was paid in and I could take cash out....
So my attempt at getting the bot to tell me how ...
Ask Cora
Cora can help you with a wide range of queries and show you how to do your banking.
Info: I keep a record of this conversation to allow me to keep improving the customer experience. Please don't provide any personal information which isn't directly relevant to your query. Data is passed to third parties who support this service.
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18:25, Nov 20
Info: Connected with Cora
18:25, Nov 20
Cora: Hi Stephen, I’m Cora your digital assistant. I can help with all sorts of everyday banking queries. Ask me a short, simple question, such as “how do I order a new card?” and I’ll be able to help.
18:25, Nov 20
You: disable contactless
18:25, Nov 20
Cora: Ok, I'm going to need to know a bit more about that. Please could you rephrase your question using more than two words and I'll be able to help.
18:25, Nov 20
You: I want to disable contactless payment on my debit card
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: Please select an option:
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: I just want to confirm that you're asking about one of the following:
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: << Sent Rich Content >>
18:26, Nov 20
You: None of these
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: I can see you are asking about a payment.
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: Which of the options below best describes your query?
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: Please select an option:
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: << Sent Rich Content >>
18:26, Nov 20
You: None of these
18:26, Nov 20
You: None of these
18:26, Nov 20
You: None of these
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: One moment please, I'm just typing.
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: One moment please, I'm just typing.
18:26, Nov 20
Cora: Sorry, I didn't quite catch that. Please could you rephrase your question and let me try again?
18:27, Nov 20
You: I want to disable contactless payment on my debit card
18:27, Nov 20
Cora: Please select an option:
18:27, Nov 20
Cora: I just want to confirm that you're asking about one of the following:
18:27, Nov 20
Cora: << Sent Rich Content >>
(Rich Text contact was select from Payment declined, query a payment or non of the above)
with android phones (not sure on ios) - there's something now called "work profile". Basically you can sling a load of apps into this bucket and they're only enabled when you turn work profile on (single button press that doesn't change anything else - all other apps still work). with the profile off, its as if the apps not installed. I'm wondering if this approach (with any apps you find you feel anxious about in the work profile) would allow you to still get all the benefits of a smart phone (you eluded to seeing a bunch yourself) without the downside.
stwhannah
How about a different tack: accept that you need to have a bank account and that practically speaking that’s going to involve a smartphone.
Not a bad suggestion in theory... I guess the issue is that you always need a fairly current/supported phone to do this and keep using a PAYG to stop it being cancelled and keep doing updates.
I sort of tried doing this in a different way (for different reasons) indeed it's still sat on my desk as I was just going to use it to get my email - didn't work out as it wouldn't support a late enough version of gmail (even though its a google phone - original google/LG ) but I never managed to get it doing what I wanted it for.
Eventually the giff-gaff PAYG got suspended through lack of use.
Yeah, I don't interface with "assistants" on banking webpages for all the reasons that @stevextc has printed off, they're universally terrible.
NickC
Yeah, I don’t interface with “assistants” on banking webpages for all the reasons that @stevextc has printed off, they’re universally terrible.
As others said NatWest is pretty dire in many ways but even taking that into account I think what "winds me up" and hence ultimately me not solving the issue is it doesn't seem to matter if its a chat bot, someone claiming to be human or even going into the bank in person.
The behaviours all seem pretty much indistinguishable... except perhaps you get a look of sympathy and a shrug when you go into the bank.
As far as I can see they (sentient and non) all follow the same scripts... can't deviate etc. and every time I think .. "right I'm going to sort this small thing out" I end up frustrated and just giving up.
I'd edit out PI and [post the previous one where I got someone/thing claiming to be human eventually but the summary is ..
Loop:
You need to use the App....
I don't have the App can we do this another way?
You need to download the app
I don't want the App can we do this another way?
Do Loop
Sad factiod .... I know the tech side PM behind at least one implementation of Cora... (heck I trained her and taught her how to develop business operating models amongst other stuff) so I'm 1/2 interested to ask if the design requirements were specific in encouraging people give up trying to change something or just an consequence of poor requirements gathering, poor UAT or just no-one cared?
I'm pretty sure my previous involvement with similar stuff and the complete lack of regard for the end-user is a large reason I don't want this stuff in my personal life anymore.
You seem set on the idea of not wanting an app, because of all the tech problems that are caused by not having it?
I can understand why you don't want to be contacted all the time by people, but that's unrelated to using an online banking app to transfer money or something. I have a Barclays app. Occasionally I use it to check a balance (open app, press fingerprint, read numbers) or transfer some money (open app, press fingerprint, click a few times). I cannot see what's detrimental to my wellbeing about using either of these things. There's no bollocks or stupid digital assistants involved at all. The thought of having to go into a branch to do these things is pretty horrendous.
It looks to me like you've got an idea stuck in your brain about 'not wanting tech' and your somewhat obsessive personality is making a rod for your own back to try and avoid it. I am very familiar with this concept as I do it all the time, and I understand how invasive, destructive and sometimes expensive it can be. But I think you are fighting the wrong battle here.
So real example (and trying to follow some advice already given)… I’ve been meaning to try and disable contactless for a while… I didn’t ask for it and don’t really like the idea of losing my card/wallet (especially as I’d not even know for a week or more until I checked)
I did end up at the pub last week and had “lost” my card… total panic – it turned up in a back pocket of cycling shorts but someone could have spent quite a bit contactless in the meantime.
In that scenario your bank would refund you without question (I think that protection is actually part of the T&Cs for contactless?). You're trying to mitigate a problem of your own fabrication.
I've had it happen to me, I parted company with my bank card on a night out, the first I knew of it was when my bank's fraud team called me the next morning. It'd flagged up on their systems because my lost card had been used back where I'd been out, then minutes later I'd used Google Pay on my phone whilst halfway home. A quick chat to ascertain which were my genuine transactions and it was all sorted.
I think you don’t notice until you try and stop it.
It’s not that long ago I’d turn off my personal phone when abroad to avoid roaming charges and I spent over 1/2 my life abroad not that long ago.
You'll only incur voice roaming charges if you make calls.
Every phone I've ever had since like Android 1.5 has disabled data roaming by default unless you explicitly enable it. But even if that's not the case, it's an option you can set.
You didn't have to turn off your phone at all, unless "not that long ago" was the 1990s.
Also email is necessary for medical stuff… my rehab exercises (trying to get more movement out of a broken hand) are all emailed to me for example.
But it's not necessary. If you didn't have email, they'd post it out to you or you could go and collect it. But email is so much more convenient, isn't it. 😁
Y'know, I don't mean this in an unkind way but its increasingly looking like you're finding all this stuff difficult because you're going out of your way to intentionally make it difficult for yourself in order to prove a point.
Molgrips
It looks to me like you’ve got an idea stuck in your brain about ‘not wanting tech’ and your somewhat obsessive personality is making a rod for your own back to try and avoid it. I am very familiar with this concept as I do it all the time, and I understand how invasive, destructive and sometimes expensive it can be. But I think you are fighting the wrong battle here.
There is more than an element of truth in that... and there is some other stuff happened I can't really explain due to an NDA.
and I understand how invasive, destructive and sometimes expensive it can be
Can you accept that my reasons I want to avoid the tech is exactly that.
I quite honestly would have chucked the £1000+ of "rewards" the other day just to make it go away... (as an example) - I can't afford to but I get so frustrated dealing with it I'd just get rid of it. [out of stupid things I've done that would be quite a minor one - I've lost 2 of my pensions as far as I know because I didn't keep in touch when I moved house - I had an account in France with 12,000 Euro I lost .. because I didn't keep in touch ]
You seem set on the idea of not wanting an app, because of all the tech problems that are caused by not having it?
Perhaps... I think the thing is every time I try and dip my feet in the water is a gaping chasm or some rabbit hole and by signing up to the thing that solves the immediate issue I find I'm agreeing to lots more stuff I don't want or perhaps just don't want to deal with or don't trust myself not to do something stupid because i get frustrated.
The little bit you’ve said about the past work thing sounds awful and not being able to talk about it would stop the processing and recovery from it. Perhaps you should find someone to talk to? The more I hear the more I feel like a decent chat with a therapist would be a good approach here. You’ve referenced this trauma/stress situation that you can’t talk about (but the NDA wouldn’t apply with a therapist) and you’re trying to organise your life around avoiding something. That’s the makings of phobia behaviours, and probably some other things besides. You could keep trying to manage tech out of your life, but if it’s actually trauma driving it and causing avoidance behaviours, then you may find that your boundaries keep shifting. First it’s tech banking, then it’s admin/bureaucracy, then it’s easier to live without electricity than deal with things, and before you realise it the trauma has you being a hermit. I’m taking it to extremes by way of example, but as a phobia sufferer myself it’s taken a few rounds of therapy to stop avoidance behaviours seeming normal and getting in the way of life.
out of stupid things I’ve done that would be quite a minor one – I’ve lost 2 of my pensions as far as I know because I didn’t keep in touch when I moved house – I had an account in France with 12,000 Euro I lost .. because I didn’t keep in touch
I've done loads of stuff like that. The amount of money I've cost our family like this is horrendous when I think about how much it would ease our lives now. Re pensions though there is pension tracing service to find the money that's yours:
My problems appear to relate to a form of ADHD from what I've read.
out of stupid things I’ve done that would be quite a minor one – I’ve lost 2 of my pensions as far as I know because I didn’t keep in touch when I moved house – I had an account in France with 12,000 Euro I lost .. because I didn’t keep in touch
See, if you'd done it online you'd have a record of all the transactions... 😁 In seriousness, that's surely recoverable? You know who they're with, or were, right?
Aside: I was also thinking what Hannah said, I just couldn't trust myself to put it into words without sounding like a dick.
@Molgrips...
I’ve done loads of stuff like that. The amount of money I’ve cost our family like this is horrendous when I think about how much it would ease our lives now.
Please don't take it the wrong way but I totally identified with the way you wrote it.
The account in France was a years rent held in a special escrow type account.
I actually went over back in 2011 and went to the branch (not easy as its inside an ex employers office) with a mate (who's a business owner) and paid some charges to transfer into my "current" account equivalent then totally lost contact and never did anything about it and moved house twice since then.
Given the exchange rate today it would be a very nice boost...I'm totally at a loss as to why I never did anything about it except I kept running into a snag whenever I started to think "Oh I need to sort that out" and I'd put it aside.
Re pensions though there is pension tracing service to find the money that’s yours:
I got a letter somehow 11/2017 (5 yrs ago) titled - still on my desk
** FINAL CHANCE - PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETAILS BELOW NOW **
Small victory ... I just went through and traced it and talked to a nice lady who's set up access.
On the back of that success I just sent an email to a mate on another pension from another ex employer... and a couple of months ago I'd actually contacted another mate from another employer regarding that pension but not actually then done anything so I'm going to chase that next.
See, if you’d done it online you’d have a record of all the transactions… 😁 In seriousness, that’s surely recoverable? You know who they’re with, or were, right?
All on work laptops.... but see above ^^^^
I quite honestly don't know who they are with... except the one outstanding one I'd emailed a mate/ex college last month.
The one said
** FINAL CHANCE – PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR DETAILS BELOW NOW **
I'd taken quite literally as final chance ... partly because I do take things literally but also rationally I thought surely they can't write threats like that if its not the case and I'd sort of then applied that to thinking if you don't keep them updated they can just close the pension.
Aside: I was also thinking what Hannah said, I just couldn’t trust myself to put it into words without sounding like a dick.
I was going to reply and thank Hannah... then I actually DID SOMETHING instead.... so oops a but late but
THANKS HANNAH..
Also Thanks Cougar...
The thing though is ultimately Hannah is not wrong.... but actually getting tech out of my life makes me happier.
It's not the right word (we need someone as eloquent as Hannah perhaps) but using certain Tech makes me feel "dirty".
I guess to get STW like YTer "Paul the Punter" has given up MTB and sold his bikes... to be happier (wouldn't work for me but whatever makes him happy)
I feel I want to move on/away from tech (not quite uninhabited island foraging and milking the goats yet) but in that general direction (although I am doing a lot of foraging mushrooms lately) but getting to a point when I only turn my phone on when there is something specific I actually want to do (mushroom ID app, suspension maintenance manuals etc.)
... and
FoxyMTBMallorca .. has shock horror moved to the Costa del Blanca... because being in Mallorca was holding her back and not letting her move forwards.
Going back 2-3 yrs it was actually my counsellor who said to switch the phone off and together with my GP (next door conveniently) wrote a medical letter to my previous employers telling them I had been advised to do this.
I've come a long way forwards since then, certain notification sounds on other peoples phones used to make me anxious... but equally I don't want to get into reliance on these.
For the record I stopped using Apple Pay when my fingerprint ID stopped working... and then had to deregister the phone/delete cards at some point.
I’ve had it happen to me, I parted company with my bank card on a night out, the first I knew of it was when my bank’s fraud team called me the next morning.
I had a new service put on my account without asking... some "emergency cash" thing.
First thing I knew I was on Gare du Nord station mid business trips (literally between Vegas and South of France) unable to buy a ticket to the airport, money out or get a taxi etc. because my card was frozen.
I then had a load of phoning the number.. being transferred and being asked for personal information in what is probably not the best possible place in the world to be putting down bags and doing so... non of which unblocked the card and had I not been in a city that I had friends in walking distance who could lend me money I'd have been completely stuffed.
I got a crime reference number and eventually refunded but no further details ever as to what the scam had been.
After that I asked my account have all remote access taken away without a card reader.
I've since had several fake calls pretending to be from bank security faking the phone number... so on balance that's why I want to keep away from remote banking.
Please don’t take it the wrong way but I totally identified with the way you wrote it.
Mate that's fine, that's why we are talking, to share our experiences and it's positive to identify with others. I mean, at first I thought you were being a bit odd but now we've talked I can understand a lot better. I can identify with a lot of what you write, but there are some small differences (as you'd expect) that mean we get somewhat different results. I'm not (yet) at the point where I want to get rid of all tech, because it actually helps make my life easier in a lot of ways. Like Cougar I would forget to pay all my bills without the tech to do it automatically, and in the past I have done and got into trouble. I get penalties and sanctions for not paying stuff that I can absolutely pay and have the money for. Don't tell my wife, but there are subscriptions I don't use that I've paid every month for like two decades and never bothered to cancel. That's new bike sort of money I've just let evaporate due to paralysis. By far my biggest issue is posting on here all the time - but it's not STW's fault - I post here because I'm bored, even though I have lots to do.
Anyway, it's certainly possible to lock down your digital experience but it sounds as if going through the process of taking control is just a bit too much to deal with. All I can say is that Barclays aren't too bad. They really do leave me alone, and the app is quite unintrusive if you need it. They also have phone banking.
"If out riding/walking/whatever and my phone bleeps or ringshone is configured to stay ".... At home. Why take it? Most of the so called essential needs are anything but.
spent years using the halifax as telephone banking service only until I gave in and went with the app. They still let you pay in/out at Post office branches as I recall and you're usually never too far from one of those
Well, for one thing, it's also my camera.
Yes, don’t get goats. They’re a total pain in the arse. Will make navigating any customer service phone system feel like a doddle.
The thing though is ultimately Hannah is not wrong…. but actually getting tech out of my life makes me happier.
It’s not the right word (we need someone as eloquent as Hannah perhaps) but using certain Tech makes me feel “dirty”.
Genuine question - or at least, perhaps even rhetorical but something for you to consider,
Is there a point on this path where you will consider yourself to be "happy"? Where you'll sit back on your patio with a single malt and your faithful hound by your side and think, "there, I've finished"?
Or, is it ever-decreasing circles where the more 'evil tech' you excise from your life, the more you will crave to excise, until ultimately you drive yourself round the twist because you're chasing an ephemeral dream which is undefined and therefore unattainable?
stwhannah
Yes, don’t get goats. They’re a total pain in the arse. Will make navigating any customer service phone system feel like a doddle.
I had 2 Anglo Nubian goats years ago "Dolly & Diana" they were great, used to graze them at a local graveyard. The symbolism with a big bloke with 2 goats on chains 2 wooden stakes and a wooden maul probably scared a few off 😉
Why take it?
I take a phone for emergency purposes, non-emergency rescues* and to take lovely photos. And not for any kind of Instagram addiction, I take a couple a month maybe, and I share them with family and friends who want to see them because they can't be here.
* Like that time I ran over a Stanley knife blade and destroyed a tyre
Cougar
Genuine question – or at least, perhaps even rhetorical but something for you to consider,
Is there a point on this path where you will consider yourself to be “happy”? Where you’ll sit back on your patio with a single malt and your faithful hound by your side and think, “there, I’ve finished”?
Or, is it ever-decreasing circles where the more ‘evil tech’ you excise from your life, the more you will crave to excise, until ultimately you drive yourself round the twist because you’re chasing an ephemeral dream which is undefined and therefore unattainable?
Fair question ....
There is in my head at least and the "evil tech" I currently want to exorcise is quite targeted and limited.
Bigger question though as I said to Stumpyjon is an increasing lack of interest in it as I get older.
So if I'm honest it sort of depends on how much work/tedium and frustration different stuff brings....
What was useful to use, read pages of T&C's, spend time configuring and managing when I was younger and pretty much constantly travelling just isn't any more.
What was "fun" to play with isn't fun. I was an early adopter on nearly everything tech I can think of... then again I also liked fast cars and now drive a very slow van when I drive at all which is infrequently and I couldn't tell you what size the actual engine is.
What I do know is the van has a every two years or 25,000 miles service (I may change the oil in between if I'm bored or check the timing chain)... but my phone feels like its every 3 months or 5000 miles with constant nagging and maintenance in-between and banking apps are always (understandably) going to want the latest security updates and mobile OS's will keep bundling stuff into the updates that break pre existing apps or mean apps need to be reconfigured and more changes to TOS and T&C's etc.
So I think the longer answer is more what doesn't become too much hassle to use.
To turn it around I can't see myself at 85 on the porch with the pooch and a dram being happy my banking app is broken due to some update to give me a new UI look and some extra korean language pack .. and spending ages setting it back up so I can order another bottle delivered by an amazon drone before I run out.