[Closed] losing weight-does it make you ill?

Edukator - Troll
Food gets into your body through your mouth, some of it gets converted into energy, don't consume more than you need.

So did you a) not read the links, or b) not understand them? They come from someone who is part of the peer-reviewed scientific community.

If we're now talking about getting ill after a hard training session or race then there are studies to show that the immune system is suppressed by hard exercise giving viruses and bacteria people would normally fight off the opportunity to take hold.

Thanks for bringing it back on topic gents, I dunno if I just didn't have a cold and the exercise made it worse. I went for a hard ride last night and feel fine this morning. Love and kisses to all.

Body builders eat carbs and inject insulin. And some end up in comas. Body builders need to be able to work hard and need glycogen in their muscles just as much as endurance athletes.

Of course they need carbs. The OP is talking about loosing weight. Body builders will cut the carbs and the insulin when they want to shed the body fat.

Body builders inject insulin to put on muscle without putting on fat in the first place.

[i]In over half a century on this planet I've yet to meet one. Every person I've lived close enough to to judge fits the simple model "you are what you eat". [/i]

Sorry, but (for once) I'm with Molgrips on this.

I'm 6'2" and until I was 24 never weighed more than 11 stone. Very active. I then got married and within a year I'd put on 1 stone. through not been active and eating well. From the age of 25 to 40 my weight varied between 11 1/2 stone to 12 1/2 stone with little or no exercise.

At the age of 40 I took up MTB. My weight since then has been in the 12 stone to 12 1/2 stone bracket.

I have eaten the same my entire life, basic principle is "you never know where your next meal is coming from" - usually have two hot meals a day, plus breakfast, mid-morning snacks and supper.

My Father (who is in his 80's and still has two course for both lunch and dinner) and pretty much all the male relatives on his side have been the same. None of us overweight in any way, and most white-collar workers.

So I do have some sympathy for some fat folk, just not for those who can't accept that if you are [i]pre-deposed[/i] to be fat then you MUST watch what you eat and MUST exercise.

If you inject insulin my friend you will get fat with high carbs guarenteed, bodybuilder or not. The reason bodybuilders take insulin is because they also inject human growth hormone and igf1 ( insulin like ggrowth factor). This is their muscle building stage and has nothing to.do.with diet, the bodybuilders will be t their highest fat level when doing this. We are talking about LOOSING weight. When it comes time to loose weight the bodybuilder will stop taking the hgh and insulin and eat a VERY VERY low carb diet. They will also change the testosterone they normally use for masterone to push the water out of the skin and then finally diuretics.
You went off subject again as we are talking about loosing weight.

Chaps, I think the Troll moniker on Edukators name tag tells us something. DO NOT FEED HIM.

Meanwhile thanks for a great discussion. When you filter out the crap there is always soemthing to learn here.

I responded to others posters' references to body builders and team Sky. Insulin use allows body builders to put on very little fat even during the muscle building phase. Beta agonists also help with putting on lean muscle, something endurance athletes have known for years hence the 70% of elite triathletes having medical certificates for asthma in the 90s.

Edit: my point being that the eating habits of drug fueled athletes are not a useful model to copy for weekend MTB warriors trying to maintain a healthy weight.

What did you eat yesterday?

So we found the level of Edukator's peer reviewed scientific arguments, I see.

To the OP: could be just transient illness hangover, as you said. There have been loads of illnesses this year. I also sometimes get bugs of some kind but don't really have symptoms until I try and exercise.

but don't really have symptoms until I try and exercise.

this could easily be it.

If Drac, a moderator with medical knowledge, thinks I'm trolling on this thread then I will make no further posts on it without any need for a warning or ban, just the words "I think you're trolling".

Back on topic: not eating enough during endurance exercise has also been linked to suppressing the immune system. Eating a moderate amount of carbs during exercise can help with weight loss it facilitates fat burning. Don't starve yourself when out on the bike even if you want to lose weight. Carbs, for example fruit, in the first half an hour after exercise will be used to replace glycogen stocks rather than go to fat meaning that effective training will be possible the next day.

Back on topic: not eating enough during endurance exercise has also been linked to suppressing the immune system.

This certainly tallies with my experience. This is why eat less move more can be problematic - if I move more I have to eat more. So it's a question of how I move and what and when I eat.

However I don't rate fruit for recovery after exercise. Peer reviewed scientific research suggests HIGH GI carbs immediately after exercise, and fruit is low.

He's not trolling he knows what he's talking about, the message is off tangent. I was reffering to the a calorie is a calorie for loosing weight and that you will loose weight but the results being different. So by saying an endurance athlete needs high carbs is exactly the same as what I'm saying. Feed your body for what you intend to use it for but keep the calories at a deficit if you want to loose weight.

Your wrong about insulin though, they take it to force food into the muscles nothing to do with keeping fat low, it's the growth that keeps them super lean. Look at Lee priest off season and tell me the insulin is keeping them lean.
[img] [/img]

Leaner than he'd be without it.

"This certainly tallies with my experience. This is why eat less move more can be problematic - if I move more I have to eat more. "

When did eating more become the issue ?

some people dont get the whole move more eat less thing. its not move more - eat less than if you were sedentary.

its move more and eat less than you would have given you moved that much.

if you eat less than you did sedentary and expect to exercise as well - of course your going to get ill.

Then there is also the initial period when you start to exercise where you will gain weight - you gain weight as you are gaining muscle to put up with the exercise. this muscle weighs more than fat. this weight works in your weight loss favour - the more muscle massyou have the more your body burns sat at your desk.

when it comes to weight loss there is still no substitute for the quantity of weight loss that comes from a balanced diet & general exercise. Anyone can lose weight by not eating but its not good quality weight loss , you'll be losing alot of muscle doing that.

Gotta feed the machine.

just be clear, I am not doing anything quickly.. Just trying to make a lifestyle change.

Good on you. I stopped exercise for 2-3 years, just couldnt be bothered with it, more important things in life.

WHen I started again I couldnt believe the pain, and the way my body reacted, and I was only about 1 stone over weight. I found it very frustrating that I could do very little and that I appeared to have zero exercise tolerence.

Im now 2 1/2 back in to getting fit and it has taken that long to feel moderately fit again (doesnt help now being 40).

My adivce would be take your time, do things slowly, could down on crap in your diet, but do not stop eating, do not stop eating stuff you enjoy. Over time fitness will return and weight loss will happen, but expect neither over night.

when it comes to weight loss there is still no substitute for the quantity of weight loss that comes from a balanced diet & general exercise.

I suspect this is not true, or at least not specific enough with terms like 'balanced diet' and 'general exercise'. There is definitely more than one way to skin this particular cat.

I don't know what the medical explanation for this is, but there is definitely a period of adjustment to new exercise during which the body protests, throwing up weird symptoms. I've had this with starting out cycling seriously, taking up running and most recently with swimming. The latter, after only a short swim I'd be ravenous, but now I can swim a fair distance without terrible hunger pangs and faintness afterwards.

This phenomenon seems to abate with reiterated training. I've found that tolerating some moderate feelings of hunger after a big run or ride leads to consistent weight loss. I also eat less on a big ride and don't eat at all during big runs, whereas I used to 'bonk' hard (tee hee) if I didn't eat consistently over distances. Body processes change as you put different demands on the body.

When it comes to weight loss, all I know is that I personally react well to prolonged exercise, and it's correlated with a decent ish diet, low sugar and avoidance of alcohol. Even a week of low volume training and high alcohol consumption and the pounds pile on and any long bouts of exercise feel horrible. But it's a shorter distance back to race weight than the prospect of being 3 stone over weight. I'd say I've shed about a stone per year of consistent exercise and alcohol awareness.

Can't claim to speak for anyone else though. And body builder diets - that's some dark science, don't go there!

see i suspect people that say things like that are fat and unfit and looking for an excuse to justify it.

Like what? You referring to me?

i was actually yes , generalising.

the post between popped up between me reading and me posting.

.toys19 - Member
I'm about 4/5 stone overweight.

Every time I do some exercise, it makes me ill the next day, not too bad, but fluish aches and pains and cold like sneezing/runny nose.

I have heard that your fat contains loads of toxins, and that when you lose weight your body processes those toxins and that makes you feel crap.

Is there any truth in this

. Well that explains a lot.

What does it explain?

but I doubt that in your case!

What do you doubt? That I would over do it?

.alaslas - Member

Even a week of low volume training and high alcohol consumption and the pounds pile on and any long bouts of exercise feel horrible. But it's a shorter distance back to race weight than the prospect of being 3 stone over weight. I'd say I've shed about a stone per year of consistent exercise and alcohol awareness.

So what works for sd-253 must work for everyone, right?

see i suspect people that say things like that are fat and unfit and looking for an excuse to justify it.

Or, put another way - the people to whom it does not apply succeeded, and the ones to whom it does apply found it hard. The former group, not having encountered a problem, would not be aware of it.

They would then post on the internet denigrating people who have had the problem and deny its existence - based on their own experience.

exactly, or put another way, anecdotes don't make science.

.toys19 - Member
Dont worry boys, one day they will prove that being bigoted is not something you can choose to do, you just can't help it. So then us bigot baiters will be the bad guys.

Or put another way agree with toys R us or your a bigot. Bigot appears to be your word for the day...every day!!
I think people who are fat eat to much...opps that makes me a bigot or possibly Toy R us is a fan of censorship?

.molgrips - Member
So what works for sd-253 must work for everyone, right?

Yep. But not everyone needs to work hard.

Exactly what that hard work should entail to achieve your aims, thought - that is another question.

.molgrips - Member
Yep. But not everyone needs to work hard.

Exactly what that hard work should entail to achieve your aims, thought - that is another question

A 10 hour cycle ride at about 10 miles an hour burns on average 2500 calories.

Calories in calories out. It isn't hard....unless you want it to be

.molgrips - Member
Yep. But not everyone needs to work hard

. CaptJon - Member
So you're saying energy into your body, not energy into your mouth?

Not sure what you mean by that?

What I said earlier. Some people stay skinny whatever they do.

I'm a skinny whatever I do kinda guy. Practically lived out a kebab shop for 2 years and never hit 10st (5ft11) with a slightly active job but no other exercise.

Now I have a less active job but eat better and now exercise 4-5 times a week to put on weight and that is hard work.

Go figure...

A little aside here, the amount of calories you get out of two what appear to be exactly the same foods are not the same. The greater you process a food the easier it passes through your stomach walls and into your blood and so on. Or put another way the more calories you get out of it. We as in humans took processing food so as to get more calories Out of it. The start was cooking food which will give you more calories than eating anything raw. Porridge I believe is an example the more the oats are processed the more calories you get out of it. Those little packets of "oats so simple" are highly processed therefore you get more calories out than if you eat unprocessed oats. How much extra doesn't appear to be easily measurable.

mssansserif - Member
I'm a skinny whatever I do kinda guy. Practically lived out a kebab shop for 2 years and never hit 10st (5ft11) with a slightly active job but no other exercise.

Now I have a less active job but eat better and now exercise 4-5 times a week to put on weight and that is hard work.

Go figure

.molgrips - Member
Not sure what you mean by that?
What I said earlier. Some people stay skinny whatever they do.

Some people would yes. And also depends on the nature of those calories. This has been proven beyond all doubt. Search for the guy who ate 5000 calories a day.

Is it time to pose the veg vs butterscotch yumyums diet question again toys? 🙂

.molgrips - Member
This has been proven beyond all doubt

SD 253 I see that for some reason this is a sore subject? Very touchy about it?

I'm just telling you my personal experience. There is no doubt in my mind that I can eat more and do less and stay skinny than other people I know/work with.

I have eaten crap and not exercised with a semi active job
I have eaten crap and not exercised with a desk job
And eaten well and exercised with a desk job

All 3 scenarios resulted in being pretty damn skinny. If anything the eating well and exercise is letting me put on weight (muscle). I've never been anything close to overweight and I have been very unfit in the past.

Just seem the double the calories argument. Try and keep it reasonable 😉 2500 to 3000 would that mean you put on weight until you were 20st? What about 2500 to 2000 would you slowly waste away to nothing?

deadlydarcy - Member
Is it time to pose the veg vs butterscotch yumyums diet question again toys?

100grms of salad leaves = 16 calories.
A kilo of salad leaves = 160 calories.
100grms of Olive oil = 900 calories
A kilo of Olive oil = 9000 calories

Veg vs butterscotch yumyums

The doubling the calorie statement was a counter to

.molgrips - Member
What I said earlier. Some people stay skinny whatever they do.

Just seem the double the calories argument. Try and keep it reasonable 2500 to 3000 would that mean you put on weight until you were 20st? What about 2500 to 2000 would you slowly waste away to nothing?

.molgrips - Member
Some people stay skinny whatever they do.

I see that for some reason this is a sore subject? Very touchy about it?

How are the calories of food calculated SD?

(Google will help you here. Not that you'd be the type of person to jump in with an ill-informed opinion before checking the facts.)

Some people are what I call "what else can it be people" A mate said I feel weak all the time, I am in pain all the time. It must be the Statins the doctors put me on 2 months ago. I questioned this "what else can it be" he went to the doctor long story short needed major spinal operation. Toy r us and molgrips are "what else can it be" type of people. Got it mssansserif

.deadlydarcy - Member
How are the calories of food calculated SD?

(Google will help you here. Not that you'd be the type of person to jump in with an ill-informed opinion before checking the facts.)

Oh get a grip 😉 this is the internet don't get so worked up.

Anyways back to the almost rational and civil discussion. You talk about plateauing at a weight for certain calorie intake? Can we agree that this will be a calorie intake with a range for a certain weight? And this will be different from person to person?

Therefore I can say eat 2500 calories and be on the skinny end of skinny and someone else can eat 2500 calories and be on the tubby side of tubby? Assuming the same exercise level.

So 2500 is an average amount of calories so "normal" meals mean I stay skinny but the same meals could make someone gain weight.

That's the point we are talking about here. Clearly if I eat 10000 calories I'm going to put on weight it it's not really going to be an accident it will take effort to eat that much....

What else can it be? According to you it can't be anything else it's just what your opinion 😉

SD-253 - Member

100grms of salad leaves = 16 calories.
A kilo of salad leaves = 160 calories.
100grms of Olive oil = 900 calories
A kilo of Olive oil = 9000 calories

100g of olive oil = 900 calories into your mouth, but may only be 630 calories into your body according to this: http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/energy-in-does-not-equal-energy-out/

By the same author this is interesting: [url= http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/eating-less-will-not-make-us-weigh-less/ ]Eating less will not make us weigh less[/url]

What other factors have an influence on calories burnt beside moving around?

muscle mass?
basal metabolic rate?
temperature of your house/workplace?
how much you use your brain?
illnesses?

CaptJon - Member
SD-253 - Member

100g of olive oil = 900 calories into your mouth, but may only be 630 calories into your body according

to this: http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/energy-in-does-not-equal-energy-out/ <

By the same author this is interesting: Eating less will not make us weigh less

What other factors have an influence on calories burnt beside moving around?

muscle mass?
basal metabolic rate?
temperature of your house/workplace?
how much you use your brain?
illnesses?

Also see earlier posting below again the difference is at the margins BUT there is much bigger margin here. If you eat 100grms of sugar (400 calories) in one go it would be in your blood stream in a minute but your body has no need of that many calories in one go so it goes into your fat store. While if you spread it over 2 hours your body wouldn't not turn it into fat it would use it as is. Now your body would clearly have difficulty turning that 400 calories that is stored as fat back into energy at the same rate as eating it over 2 hours.

.SD-253 - Member
A little aside here, the amount of calories you get out of two what appear to be exactly the same foods are not the same. The greater you process a food the easier it passes through your stomach walls and into your blood and so on. Or put another way the more calories you get out of it. We as in humans took processing food so as to get more calories Out of it. The start was cooking food which will give you more calories than eating anything raw. Porridge I believe is an example the more the oats are processed the more calories you get out of it. Those little packets of "oats so simple" are highly processed therefore you get more calories out than if you eat unprocessed oats. How much extra doesn't appear to be easily measurable.

By the way this is not really supportive of people who are overweight

100g of olive oil = 900 calories into your mouth, but may only be 630 calories into your body according to this

Edit - deleted, I didnt read the post properly!

You are merely making excuses for people you are not doing them a favour.

Please don't confuse my posts with others who are saying what they are posting is gospel. I'm just interested to explore the science here and don't have an agenda other than to point out things more complex than most people think.

Calorie restriction is not a long term solution, imo.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

glad you posted that .... it just confirms what ive said.

move more than you did , eat less than you would have had you moved that much.

Diet is a shit way to lose weight unless medical reasons prohibit moving more.

[i]glad you posted that .... it just confirms what ive said.

move more than you did , eat less than you would have had you moved that much.
[/i]

Sadly, I fear you haven't [i]read[/i] that. Selective reading, voluntary or otherwise, is the flaw in this format of discussion.
🙁

Solo, this is STW. It would all work much better in the pub. Plus people would not find it so easy to resort to being rude.

[i]Solo, this is STW. It would all work much better in the pub. Plus people would not find it so easy to resort to being rude. [/i]

Aye. Having been a past offender myself, I do try now to moderate my [i]enthusiasm[/i] and my quantity of posts, here.

The only thing that has been proved beyond any doubt is eating more than you need makes you fat.

Here are some people eating a lot and not getting fat:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7838668.stm
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

You say that if you eat too much you get fat. This is true for the MAJORITY of people, but not everyone.

Yes I abhore pathetic excuses.

I'm not making ****ing excuses! I'm only interested in the science. Because I want to be leaner than I am (incidentally, I'm not fat), and I want to figure out how my own body works and how to get it to do what I want.

I'll freely admit that I have eaten too many cakes and sweets in the past. I'll go into great detail if you want, and I have on here many times. I'm not hiding anything.

The argument I am trying to make is not a personal one. Please read carefully and understand. On this thread I am aiming to debunk the stupid thermodynamics argument. If everyone were the same, and it was down to calories into your mouth vs physical work done, then everyone's body would behave the same way

EVERYONE'S BODY IS NOT THE SAME!

Grips.

Its Friday morning, Chill.

[i]I'll freely admit that I have eaten too many cakes and sweets in the past.[/i]
Thats very honest of you and I've always had the impression that some folk find it easier than others to abstain from making poor dietary decisions, on a daily basis.
One-offs don't count, the odd indulgence should be part of the "[i]
balance[/i]" in their diets, that some people talk about.
Its the daily, repetition of poor diet choices, that does the damage, whether you're skinny or not, imo.

Excessive carbs in the diet goes further than just a wasit line measurement, in harming the body. imo.

molgrips, sd253 is just looking for excuses to insult people and get away with it. We would all be better off if we ignore him.

[i]i'll freely admit that I have eaten too many cakes and sweets in the past. I'll go into great detail if you want, and I have on here many times. I'm not hiding anything.[/i]

what about the cakes and sweets that you've been eating recently though, are you hiding those? 😉

One can only presume that you prefer eating cakes to losing weight but that choice is wholly yours.

Must not post... Must not post... dammit

SD-253 - Member

So someone who eats 2500 calories a day and then increases his calorie consumption to 5000 calories a day BUT does not increase the amount of calories they use WILL NOT PUT ON WEIGHT?

molgrips - Member

Some people would yes. And also depends on the nature of those calories. This has been proven beyond all doubt. Search for the guy who ate 5000 calories a day.

[url] http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-got-a-bit-fat [/url]

Its only a single test subject, granted, but there is a lot more evidence to debunk what you are trying to ram down peoples throats here.

[i]One can only presume that you prefer eating cakes to losing weight but that choice is wholly yours. [/i]

Feel better for that ?

So while your picking on someone, please try to remind yourself that person is also looking for a better understanding and that not everyone stands in the same place on the lipogenic curve. On account of past diet, age, sex.
🙄

Solo, this is my point about the bigotry on here, and in RL. You see fat people tentativly heading to the gym to try and sort their lives out, and people laugh at them, patronise them, or are just plain rude. Arseholes.

One can only presume that you prefer eating cakes to losing weight but that choice is wholly yours.

I like loosing weight, but I also really really like cakes.

Why do I like cakes so much?

You see fat people tentativly heading to the gym to try and sort their lives out, and people laugh at them, patronise them, or are just plain rude.

I agree. Fat people have a problem - self control, self image, physical, whatever it is - but as a society we've managed to build up this exercise/diet thing into some kind of transient religion so it seems to some people like a really big deal to change your lifestyle.

Have you ever spoken to an obese person with low self esteem about exercise?

I am an obese person. I would say I have high self esteem, and just accept that I am fat and old as a fact rather than a failing. I do want to enjoy riding and live long so I am attempting to sort it out.

I don't know how I ended up like this, i used to be a gym bunny, fit as flea. Work, kids a bit of depression a few years a go. Then once you put it on, its bloody hard to shift.

[i]but as a society we've managed to build up this exercise/diet thing [/i]

Upto 1960s, people who exercised vigorously and regularly were generally regarded as health nuts. And prior to this time, significant volumes of exercise were considered unhealthy ( I know, difficult to imagine, today ). Then fast forward to the 70s and 80s and we see a boom in running, gym membership and people generally engaging in all manner of exercise.

During the 1960s, Jean Mayer - amongst others - regardless of starving rodents to death in his labs, had turned his attention to creating the belief that the sedentary nature of modern living with its escalators, cars, remote controls, etc. Was contributing to the increase in obesity. Again we see a hypothesis which instinctively appears to '[i]make sense[/i]' and so people started to believe that exercise, lots of it, was the answer.

Thats pretty much how we are where we are today. Burdened with the engrained dogma, this intrinsic link between body fat and exercise.
Good business if your in the recreational, health activity, sector.

Then once you put it on, its bloody hard to shift.

Yep. My weight is very stable - it is very hard to lose it, but it's pretty easy to stop it going on.

Here are some people eating a lot and not getting fat:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7838668.stm
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

You say that if you eat too much you get fat. This is true for the MAJORITY of people, but not everyone.

You can see the smashthefat guy has very little muscle mass, despite being a trainer, so I would surmise he finds it very difficult to gain weight of any kind. Also I don't think he's trying to debunk "calories in vs calories out" - I just skimmed the pseudoscience on his site but I think he seems to be saying that his body is simply not absorbing the extra calories (and presumably excreting them) rather than energy just magically appearing or disappearing. I would also guess he has never been fat or had a problem with insulin resistance so I would bet the number of people who could replicate his experiment and get the same result are very few and far between.

You see fat people tentativly heading to the gym to try and sort their lives out, and people laugh at them, patronise them, or are just plain rude.

As diets go I can not emphasise just how easy the 5:2 diet is. Maybe it is phycological ie knowing you only have to do it for 2 days. Either way it is easy peasy. And just as importantly good for you. Try it and see.
Either way I am off to the village party where there will be lashing of cake and cider/beer. Followed by a cycle to the pub, only 6 miles and assuming I am not to rat arsed only 6 miles home. I will remove all those excess calories on Tuesday and Thursday by eating only 500 calories. When I say 500 calories I mean exactly that. I will check on the net that I have got it exactly right. No cheating with me

They are few and far between though so I don't really think it's something worth focusing on.

I'm not focusing on it - I'm using it to make a point that people are not simple heat engines.

The human body/heat engine analogy always looked a little suspect to me but I'm starting to realise that it's not as far off as I thought.
Try tipping a bag of sugar into your fuel tank and see where it gets you.

.loum - Member
The human body/heat engine analogy always looked a little suspect to me but I'm starting to realise that it's not as far off as I thought.
Try tipping a bag of sugar into your fuel tank and see where it gets you.

.toys19 - Member
I don't know how I ended up like this, i used to be a gym bunny, fit as flea. Work, kids a bit of depression a few years a go.

There was time to edit and still is

That would be just as wrong as writing it with prior knowledge. If you believe it you should say it.....unless the other bloke is a lot bigger than you.