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This is boring and oh so predictable…
Can’t deny that what followed in the rest of your post was entirely in keeping with your opening point. Well done for once.
...why bring race into it?..i didn't...i said idiots with knives will kill each other, I couldn't care less what colour their skin is..as someone else said; in Glasgow the racial profile of those involved in knife crime will be different to that in London..makes no difference, still idiots, still Darwinism at work.
A certain section of society (and this forum) seem to want race brought into everything..as a touchy subject it invariably leads to arguments, derailing the debate and ultimately shutting it down..try not to do that and don't accuse others of racism when they haven't mentioned it..it says far more about you, your prejudices and insecurities that you have to paint others in that light.
Deviant - its because in this case when stop and search was used in Lndon previously it was racist in useage and led to serious advese effects. Look at the stats. Black youth far more likely to get stopped but LESS likely to result in arrest than white kids stopped. Black kids being stopped so often without any arrest that they become alienated which makes effective policing harder to acheive
thats why this is about race.
In that case we (as a society) should never give anything or anyone a second go, because it failed once before...it's a ridiculous premise and doesn't take into account more progressive attitudes in the police (and society in general) and implies that we are incapable of learning from mistakes...and we know that's nonsense too.
Cutting youth centres and Sure Start Centres can't have helped, neither can an education system that just doesn't work for many of these youngsters.
Now if we can only get the ****’s as well as the ****s killing each other to death with knives , we could probably cut sexual offences against white girls too
Youre blinded by your own prejudice. There are problems to solve, race is a factor, ignoring it doesnt help anyone.
race is a factor, ignoring it doesnt help anyone.
Go on then what is the factor, what does being a certain skin colour mean in this case? Or is it to do with the places you live, situations you are born into etc.
The question is - do you want something that works or do you want to appease the daily wail? Stop and search not only does not work but it activly damages community relations which reduces your chances of getting co operation and intelligence that does work
Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result
Stop and search not only does not work but it activly damages community relations
Your own argument was that it did work in Glasgow, its just that the people being stopped and searched were white
Why weren't young neds and weegies so upset at being singled out for special treatment that they didn't kick off about it?
Because it was not racist in its implementation and that it was a small part of a co ordinated operation and the situations are very differnt. Nor did I say it worked in Glasgow
What I do know is previous experience of this in London was counterproductive. the two situations are not comparable
Because it was not racist in its implementation
just keeping on saying it doesn't make it true TJ.
Its entirely possible for something to be implemented fairly but result in an outcome that looks biased on paper. Knife crime disproportionately involved young black men, by its very nature dealing with it will result in a disproportionate outcome.
People have short memories.the last time Stop and Search was ramped up against a predominantly black, inner city population it didn’t end well
But at that time the Tory government had a police force very much onside. Not this time. Now they’ve treated the police like every other part of the public sector.... dispensable. So things might pan out very differently this time around
ninfan - for every white boy stopped loads of black boys were. But stops on white boys produced far more arrests. Why? Racial profiling which is racist in nature. If they had arrested proportionately more black kids then it wouldn't but the stats clearly show that innocent black kids faced the chance of stop and search far more than innocent white kids.
Thats why its racist.
I haven’t seen anyone here suggest for one second that it does, nor have I seen anyone suggest stopping people just because they are black.
Said outright, no. Strongly intimated including by you ninfan - very much so.
Said outright, no. Strongly intimated including by you ninfan – very much so.
It's one of the skills of trolling really, say enough, say a lot just stop short of actually saying something to commit to it.
why do you lot bother? you all know he trolls and still you feed
good point junky. Its sometimes nice to beat him over the head with the truth tho
he does not GAS about truth* [ do you think there is anyone here who thinks he speaks it ?]so it is still pointless
* reaction yes so he would try something new - perhaps even being rational - to maintain the attention/responses he craves.
If only trolling was against the rules of the forum...
Amber Rudd is due to announce her plan to tackle violent crime on Tuesday
I expect it’ll be a totally disconnected from reality, aloof, Westminster, white-privilege load of old authoritarian horse-shit that will alienate further the already marginalised in society and make everything ten times worse.
Its like the 80’s again. And that was shit the first time around.
this is the genius ‘blue sky thinking’ they’re proposing thus far
Inspired!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/07/violent-youths-crime-wave-uk-social-media-ban
<div class="bbp-reply-author">junkyard
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why do you lot bother? you all know he trolls and still you feed
In this case, probably because I care greatly about the very people ninfan is referring to. Young people who because of the system have to struggle harder than anyone else in this country for opportunities and success.
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Oh, look, the outraged left once again upset because they extrapolated something into their own tiny minds that wasn't actually said by anyone and can't handle the fact that they got called on it - plus ca change.
Then resorting to calling people trolls because it turns out their own ignorance has been revealed, plus c'est la meme chose
Young people who because of the system have to struggle harder than anyone else in this country for opportunities and success.
"Da babylon done made me angry so i had to go and stab someone, innit blud"
What’s it like, being you?
Oh, look, the outraged left
Is that from page 5 or 7 of the handbook?
Then resorting to calling people ______ because it turns out their own ignorance has been revealed, plus c’est la meme chose
well put, heading to name calling a bit later in your usual repertoire is a step forward. Just to check outraged left is basically the non racists?
What’s it like, being you?
Binners, I have argued perfectly polite, well made and clear points that disagreed with people on matters of whether or not the application of stop and search laws were applied unfairly or in a racist manner. I have not made a single comment in that polite discussion that could be interpreted by any reasonable person as offensive or derogatory.
One again, the usuals couldn't handle that, so had to start making sh** up.
Whats it like being them?
Ninfan said....
the fact that this disproportionately (as a %ge of the community) affects young black men isn’t proof of victimisation, it’s merely a consequence of the significant chance of people wandering around the streets of a London knife crime hotspot in hooded sports attire during the hours of darkness coincidentally happening to be young, black and male
Based on this logic why are we not stopping and questioning bankers on suspicion of fraud - they are easy to spot and hang out in the usual places, most financial crime will take place in certain districts in the capital.
Thinking about it we should be checking many other things, we should probably have cameras inside all areas MP's visit to combat sexual assaults and harassment.
The problem is Ninfan that even when you are given stats that show that this is racist in its application and its explained why its counterproductive you don't listen and continue to argue contrary to the facts
We've seen it a lot lately with Brexiters, barefaced lies to the public/parliament when their own analysis has already shown them otherwise, but it must still be hard to knowingly spread fake news ? as Rudd did in yesterday's Torygraph
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43694062
I have not made a single comment in that polite discussion that could be interpreted by any reasonable person as offensive or derogatory.
It does make me laugh when trolly mctrollface gets all hufty about people being impolite to him. Must be hard to be so misunderstood, poor sausage.
Funny that while most of us accept that poor upbringing leads to a lot of issues being discussed in this thread people don't seem to have any sympathy for whatever upbringing the likes of ninfan had to cause them to be such uncaring and generally horrible people.
Oh, look, the outraged left once again upset because they extrapolated something into their own tiny minds that wasn’t actually said by anyone and can’t handle the fact that they got called on it – plus ca change.
Then resorting to calling people trolls because it turns out their own ignorance has been revealed, plus c’est la meme chose
Young people who because of the system have to struggle harder than anyone else in this country for opportunities and success.
“Da babylon done made me angry so i had to go and stab someone, innit blud”
Ninfan, as you well know, this isn’t about left and right - it is about what works and what doesn’t and not suspecting a whole group of crimes because of the actions of a minority.
I love your characterisation of black people too (Or did I just imagine that too.). Prejudiced much...? Your insight is clearly lacking.
Ninfan, as you well know, this isn’t about left and right – it is about what works and what doesn’t
The increase in knife crime suggests that the status quo isn’t working.
and not suspecting a whole group of crimes because of the actions of a minority.
didnt bother you when they banned handguns did it? Doesn’t bother you when the police breathalise drivers, does it? How about those sneaky coppers at the roadside with lasers, checking your speed and number plate as if you were a criminal, surely they should need suspicion before doing that?
Characterisation of black people
Ahem, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English
“Da babylon done made me angry so i had to go and stab someone, innit blud”
TBH, I just thought he was quoting captainflasheart.
But from Scotland, yet, this seems like a way forward.
If someone is carrying a knife with the intention of using it to cause harm, it's already to late.
It doesn't address the problem at all.
didnt bother you when they banned handguns did it? Doesn’t bother you when the police breathalise drivers, does it? How about those sneaky coppers at the roadside with lasers, checking your speed and number plate as if you were a criminal, surely they should need suspicion before doing that?
People choose to drive, chose to have a handgun but don’t choose the colour of their skin. That surely cannot have escaped you.
I don’t actually support the routine monitoring of car registrations or random breath tests - but you wouldn’t know that. I don’t support the ownership of handguns - because not one person in the U.K. needs to own something which is singularly designed to wound and kill.
As for your reference to MLE, it is completely disingenuous to suggest post-fact that you were not using that form of language to denigrate black people - especially as it was referring to a quote from me that referenced black people.
You are without doubt expressing racial prejudice on this thread. It’s just another of your particularly nasty habits though. I’m not surprised as you also have espoused similarly distasteful attitudes to poverty, and homelessness in other threads. Normally I would post some links to evidence that kind of claim - but you are notorious for it, so I won’t need to satisfy many others, that this is indeed the case.
I am completely aware that you love to troll and wind people up and clearly get a massive kick out of it. I have responded in length on this thread not only because I am confident in the rightness of what I am saying, but also because showing up unpleasant bigotry wherever I find it is one way to stop it. By continuing to post - you are continuing the demise of your own views. That is particularly satisfying.
has ninfan just used the "Ali G" defense ?
where was all the support and outrage for school kids stopped from going to school because the had to walk through a unionist area? or the car full of family members stopped and searched at all hours because they were of an non protestant religion? circa n.i from 1960-2000
er you what? It was a massive thing at the time and something that communities are dealing with still and covered during the good friday agreement as a huge amount of work to move on from there.
anyway whataboutery is always really helpful, do you have the league table of important things so we can all check if today's problems are relevant and worth dealing with based on historical events?
well it is relevant. people were stopped and searched simply from the area they came from or the religion they chose. They were just unlucky not to have the liberal left on their side at the time. How is this any different to what is being asked of in london now?
If someone is carrying a knife with the intention of using it to cause harm, it’s already to late.
It doesn’t address the problem at all.
Oh, right. We should probably just ignore it and let them carry on then. job jobbed.
well it is relevant. people were stopped and searched simply from the area they came from or the religion they chose. They were just unlucky not to have the liberal left on their side at the time. How is this any different to what is being asked of in london now?
its the usual one-eye-blind approach taken by our moral superiors. Remember how they were outraged about how Kettling of protesters was a breach of their human rights*, despite never raising a whimper over the police doing to football fans for years beforehand.
*there were plent of the usual intelligentsia on here telling us that it was blatantly illegal, turns out in the end that the ECHR ruled that it wasn’t.
all stop and search will do is alienate certain groups in society
Perhaps but a quick look at the victim photo's suggests the victims are also members of the same groups.
Incidentally not entirely racial from my experience.
8-9 years ago I lived on the Winstanley Estate. Everyone on the estate knew there was going to be a gun fight on a specific evening. I even got reminded at the off license...
That evening a kid shot another kid... in this instance one was white and the other black but in reality they were both part of the same culture of drug dealing gangs. Who shot who first and their colour is all a bit irrelevant as that only really says who pulled the trigger first.
where was all the support and outrage for school kids stopped from going to school because the had to walk through a unionist area? or the car full of family members stopped and searched at all hours because they were of an non protestant religion? circa n.i from 1960-2000
Well, I certainly was outraged during the later period of that time. I abhorred it from the point I started to really begin to understand what was going on. Probabaly about 1989/1990 when I became far more aware. I was only born in 1974.
Well, I certainly was outraged during the later period of that time. I abhorred it from the point I started to really begin to understand what was going on. Probabaly about 1989/1990 when I became far more aware. I was only born in 1974.
Unfortunately in the minds of right wing nutjobs and idiots, lead by the fake patriotism of press barons, that makes you a terrorist sympathiser and enemy of the state. You would have to be wilfully ignorant of current affairs to not see the accusations being made of Corbyn now, because he raised these issues then.
well it is relevant. people were stopped and searched simply from the area they came from or the religion they chose. They were just unlucky not to have the liberal left on their side at the time. How is this any different to what is being asked of in london now?
It relevance point is only as you want to use what we did in the past to evaluate what we did now. Can we respond to this situation in a better way now?
Oh, right. We should probably just ignore it and let them carry on then. job jobbed.
They're likely to carry on anyway. With or without a knife. This day, the next day, or the day after that. Inside or outside of prison...
I suspect that by the time we get to that stage, stop and search is going to have very little impact and potentially even inflame tensions.
I don't actually have a problem with stop and search. I've been stopped and searched loads of times, and that was as a (usually relatively well behaved) white kid from a small village. Never found it all that unusual.
I suspect that by the time we get to that stage, stop and search is going to have very little impact and potentially even inflame tensions.
How do you stop people killing each other in the short term?
Long term yes a better strategy is needed.
This isn't just a London problem though, its country wide, and drug related.
Mrs FD has been a trauma doc in Leeds on and off for the last few years. At first she saw knife injuries rarely, and it was a topic of discussion, then knife injuries became normal and gun shot stuff was the new thing. unfortunately now, even in somewhere like Leeds knife and gun shot injuries are 'normal'
This would be the perfect opportunity to widen the debate to encompass a radical change in our archaic and hopelessly ineffective drug laws, which are the root cause of all this, the woeful disparity in opportunity for young people from different backgrounds, the total absence of social mobility in society etc, etc, etc.......
It won't happen of course, because the Daily Wail would go into meltdown. And we can't have that now, can we? Head in the sand and keep ploughing on regardless. Its all going great!
How do you stop people killing each other in the short term?
Unfortunately you can't in a human rights scenario. The ultimate short term solution is simply to execute all the know gang leaders and kingpins. Will be a lot of years off before we get to judge dredd stage. A more humane approach is to round up the know kingpins and lock them away for a very long time as a deterrent to the scroutes that worship them. Then everything will descend into anarchy . It also won't matter somebody else will simply take over the 'turf'.
There is no solution long or short term, man will eradicate themselves anyway. The situation is too far in the gutter. Stay in school , get a good education so you can live in gated communities and wealthy areas is the only solution.
I did catch a little of a government minister on the radio this morning, question from a listener who's son was in a coma after being stabbed.
If reducing policing didn't cause this why did you rush to put 300 more police on the streets this weekend?
Another comment - if these deaths were terrorism related infinite funds would have been made available.
at least the PM should have a good grasp of the issues having run the home office that helped get us here.
+1 Binners, time for some real debate and solid ways forward.
There is no solution long or short term, man will eradicate themselves anyway. The situation is too far in the gutter. Stay in school , get a good education so you can live in gated communities and wealthy areas is the only solution.
Yep, that really must be the only solution possible.
This would be the perfect opportunity to widen the debate to encompass a radical change in our archaic and hopelessly ineffective drug laws, which are the root cause of all this, the woeful disparity in opportunity for young people from different backgrounds, the total absence of social mobility in society etc,
Do you know how difficult that would be. Can't we just do something easy to keep people quite until the next issue...
Car crash interview with Amber Rudd on Fox and Friends this morning (or was it R4 Today - hard to tell the difference) where she claimed not to have read the Home Office report on knife crime, but managed to quote the bits of it that support her story, while omitting the bits that contradict her weekend article in the Times, or the Torygraph, or whatever rag published her emissions.
Street parties. Nothing brings communities together like street parties. There’s a royal wedding coming up. Remember how the whole country untied around the hashtag, #CleanForTheQueen? You do all remember that don’t you?
Let’s clean these communities up and give these youths something of which they can be proud.
#RinseForThePrince
#SparkleForTheMarkle
These threads are useful to remind the more liberal among us that some people see the first act of V for Vendetta as a template for a calm and peaceful police state where nobody has to worry so long as they are not on the list while advocating for massive personal freedoms.
Also good these forums to see how liberals think the world can be turned around into a utopia. It didn't after 5 million years it's not going to today or tomorrow.
Proper LOL
In the last few years progress has been made on a huge number of things, see gender equality, multiple discrimination acts, the MeToo movement to name a few. In the same time other factors like wealth equality and opportunity have not kept up, that is what needs to change. If you can't be bothered to be part of that don't complain about being left behind.
The first human ancestors appeared between five million and seven million years ago, probably when some apelike creatures in Africa began to walk habitually on two legs. They were flaking crude stone tools by 2.5 million years ago. Then some of them spread from Africa into Asia and Europe after two million years ago.
Yes no progress in 5bn years, none at all
Also good these forums to see how liberals think the world can be turned around into a utopia.
Maybe it is because we want it to. Don't give up so easily.
"Also good these forums to see how liberals think the world can be turned around into a utopia."
Such a weird comment... Nobody ever talks about utopia on here except for frustrated right wingers searching for a way to ridicule the idea that things can be a bit better. Want to stop harrassing black kids on the street with ineffectual policing? CRAZY UTOPIAN, ITS UMPOSSIBLE. Want Amber Rudd to stop lying about the impact of cuts? Utopia!
Actually that last one is probably impossible.
Amber Rudd to stop lying about the impact of cuts? Utopia! Don’t forget The MayFurhur started the cuts and sacrificing social cohesion for an Us and Them state..
Hope you don’t mind, but I had to add that.
I'm sure most right wingers actively want everything to be constantly shit so they've got plenty to moan about. Lets be honest.... this is what the uptight joyless bastards seem to gain their greatest pleasure from.... endlessly banging on about how awful everything is
I’m sure most right wingers actively want everything to be constantly shit so they’ve got plenty to moan about
Interesting logic as the only people doing the moaning in the media at the moment are the liberal loony left.
Interesting logic as the only people doing the moaning in the media at the moment are the liberal loony left.
I assume you are unaware of the Mail, Express, Fox, Sky and the collection of right wing moaners complaining that everyone else is at fault and it's every bodies fault rather than entering into any debate or proposing solutions. Well apart from yours on the other page of kill everyone.
What's wrong with wanting things to improve? What's wrong with wanting people to have a better life? What's wrong with change? Some of the greatest things that have happened in modern history, have been because someone dared to dream. People told them it was impossible, but they had the balls to disagree.
But some people in life just want to kick people down.
come on mike, even you couldn't argue the #trump, #brexit media fiasco that has been pushing over a year now is only relevant in the media because the left push it daily.
Interesting logic as the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">only </span>people doing the moaning
Trump is relevant to world politics, world trade etc. Brexit is a massive event in the UK and Europe and you should probably look up Only
Yeah..... bloody lefties with their desire for social justice, equality and a fairer society. Much better if they shut up with all that crap and got on board with some mythical 1950s golden era that never existed, or a return to Empire, eh?
...a return to Empire you say, where do I sign.
As a right winger myself we bemoan all the social policies that will be enacted when the next Labour government takes the reigns...the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money...no doubt Corbyns lot will bankrupt the country or try to tax wealthy individuals for the bulk of their earnings...and then wonder why these people leave the country leaving nothing to tax...it's depressingly predictable.
"What we need is a good war" a good old fashioned class war eh.
bloody lefties with their desire for social justice, equality and a fairer society. Much better if they shut up with all that crap and got on board with some mythical 1950s golden era that never existed, or a return to Empire, eh?
Yeah, capitalism eh?
"As a right winger myself we bemoan all the social policies that will be enacted when the next Labour government takes the reigns…the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money…"
The problem with the present Government and right-wing press is they're obsessed about telling us about how bad it would be if the other lot got elected never mind calling to account those in Government who've presently got us into this mess.
Yeah ninfan got his graph out PHWOAR it's got some lovely lines on it...
How about more things like this, instead of harassing people. Kids from estates riding bikes, and actually getting on with the police.
Yeah ninfan got his graph
its true that every rabid free enterprise lover is one purely for its fabled ability to bring people out of poverty[ dont we all tire of hearing ninfan bleat on about it ?] - I know it was capitalism when they were in poverty but hey lets rejoice that only 15 % of the planet are living in extreme poverty[ the rest do at least have £1.50 per day the lucky bastards] with wealth less than the singles richest person *
* no idea if true but hoping he goes of to google
Hurray for unfettered free-market capitalism! And how it benefits us all! Even kids murderising each other on London’s streets
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/07/global-inequality-tipping-point-2030
i find it ironic that those very black poor kids are showing ambition and entrepreneurship that surely Maggie herself, bless her, would be proud. They’re actually champions of capitalism, and the almighty free market