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To this day I still can't fathom out how and why the riots were able to happen... Has the UK learnt anything from this ? Or would the police still pussy foot around ???
Sorry, I don't understand.
Obviously if they'd been cyclists then they'd have been quelled pretty much instantly.
Obviously if they'd been cyclists then they'd have been quelled pretty much instantly.
Only if they were on 27.5", makes quelling riots come alive.
[url= http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots_in_London ]london riots[/url]
I remember William the Long Beard, he caused a right stink trying to introduce a new rear axle length.
Er, the police kinda lit the fuse didnt they? Dont think they were pussy footing around when they were 'dealing' with Mark Duggan.
Yes, I was in a tall office building in East London that day, we watched the palls of smoke appearing all over the place.
It was a bit worrying, and the cycle home to west London a bit interesting.
I blame the repeal of the riot act.
The topic tombola sure throws some strange ones out sometimes.
Yes, if only Churchill was still in charge, that'd have made things a lot better.
Has anyone blamed Thatcher yet?
A riot is the language of the unheard.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Who ever hears of fat men heading a riot, or herding together in turbulent mobs? No - no, your lean, hungry men who are continually worrying society, and setting the whole community by the ears.
Washington Irving
I blame the social inequality, class divide and disillusionment of the lower classes who cant afford a 650B+ bike, or a Boost 110 fork.
It was to do with pudding, wasn't it?
If only the Home Secretary had authorised the use of 13 pounder field guns on the streets of London, we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.
It was to do with pudding, wasn't it?
That was the great fire.
That was the great fire.
Loving your work.
I think its inconsiderate to the families of the victims to call it a Great Fire.
Who ever hears of fat men heading a riot, or herding together in turbulent mobs?
It's only because they can't run fast enough
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What tyres for burning barricades?
I was in Canary Wharf at the time, mad to see it coming down the Avenue and heading this way, but behold CW Security.. Blimey they had armoured Tanks coming in a patrolling Waitrose.
We had a car burned out on Westferry road near the Island Gardens entry, but TBH thats happened before 😆
What tyres for burning barricades?
Maxxis Ignitors
Panaracer cinder
Fire XC Pro's.
Is this the proposed anti-Murdoch ones coming next week?
What tyres for burning barricades?
Maxxis Ignitors
Then panaracer fire xc for a quick getaway.
unfitgeezer - MemberTo this day I still can't fathom out how and why the riots were able to happen...
TBH I can't fathom how the kangaroo courts afterwards were able to happen.
Which principle of law do you suggest they ignored Northwind?
It did give us some interwebular gold, though, didn't it?
Wel gangzta, innit?
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ninfan - MemberWhich principle of law do you suggest they ignored Northwind?
Resident right-winger agrees that crimes against property should be treated with greater severity than crimes against the person shocker.
[i]"The average custodial sentence was 16.8 months - more than four times the average term handed down by magistrates' courts for similar offences."[/i]
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8695988/London-riots-Lidl-water-thief-jailed-for-six-months.html ]London riots: Lidl water thief jailed for six months[/url]
[i]A college student with no criminal record was jailed for six months on Thursday for stealing a £3.50 case of bottled water during a night of rioting.
Robinson’s previous good character and early plea of guilty to a non-dwelling burglary, as well as the low value of goods stolen, the fact he was in education, and his remorse, were in his favour. [/i]
[url= http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/more-half-uk-drivers-who-kill-cyclists-escape-jail-1457623 ]More Than Half UK Drivers Who Kill Cyclists Escape Jail[/url]
TBH i doubt he even wants to defends them [anywhere but here]
"Blimey they had armoured Tanks coming in a patrolling Waitrose."
The unarmoured ones weren't much of a success.
The unarmoured ones weren't much of a success.
They weren't even organic.
agrees that crimes against property should be treated with greater severity than crimes against the person shocker.
I reckon I can defer to the court of appeal on that...
[i]This is not new found sentencing policy. In the context of a riot in Cambridge some 40 years ago, this court observed:
"When there is wanton and vicious violence of gross degree the court is not concerned with whether it originates from gang rivalry or from political motives. It is the degree of mob violence that matters and the extent to which the public peace is broken…
Any participation whatever, irrespective of its precise form, in an unlawful or riotous assembly of this type derives its gravity from becoming one of those who by weight of numbers pursued a common and unlawful purpose. The law of this country has always leant heavily against those who, to attain such a purpose, use the threat that lies in the power of numbers…
In the view of this court, it is a wholly wrong approach to take the acts of any individual participator in isolation. They were not committed in isolation and, as already indicated, it is that very fact that constitutes the gravity of the offence."[/i]
There's a very extensive discussion on the seriousness of offences committed in association with a riot and the justification for sentencing in the [url= http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2011/2312.html ]judgement[/url], however I'm sure you would prefer to jump up and down and say 'it was only a bottle of water'....
Yes Z-11 I am fully aware that we live in a society which values property, specially property owned by industry and commerce, often higher than human life. Had Nicolas Robinson killed a cyclist through careless driving he more than likely would have escaped a prison sentence, however because he stole £3.50 worth of bottled water, something which he instantly regretted, he went to prison. You don't need to point that fact out - but thanks anyway.
Generally we sentence according to the severity of the crime, not the severity of the outcome - that's why an offence of [i]careless[/i] driving is sentenced more leniently that one of [i]dangerous[/i] driving, which is in turn less serious than manslaughter or murder through delbaretly driving at someone to injure or kill them
even if the tragic outcome is the same.
Yes you obviously think that a 6 month prison sentence is an appropriate punishment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottle water, despite plenty of evidence which suggests that the offender is extremely unlikely to re-offend. As I said - your stance is completely predictable. As is mine of course.
No - I think it's an appropriate sentence for looting a shop under the cover of a riot
😐
It's pretty much irrelevant whether it was a bottle of water or a flatscreen TV, it's the 'looting under the cover of a riot' that earns the sentence.
Now, Go on then, see how you do:
for the record i meant the 2011 riots !
What worried me was the alarming rate it went from bad to mental in such a short period of time absolutley lawless so when the Armageddon day comes when/whatever that may be society will break down in a matter of hours... scary...that was a taster of when something serious happens how little power the police have...
Tbh I'm surprised that there hasn't been more of the same. The gap between the rich and the rest continues to widen, another flashpoint is all that's required to get to that jump off point and it start again. Some truly reactionary sentences meted out to the protagonists.
that was a taster of when something serious happens how little power the police have...
I'm not sure what power you think the police are lacking. IMO the police did an excellent job of protecting the centre of Croydon during the rioting and looting - not a single shop behind the police lines was hit.
All the looting and damage was done to buildings beyond the reach of the police, although they did respond with considerable speed to isolated incidents, often arriving at the very early stages of looting and securing the buildings.
What more did you expect of them? They were limited by their numbers, although we did eventually have in Croydon police from as far as Wales paroling the streets.
.
although we did eventually have in Croydon police from as far as Wales paroling the streets.
As [i]far[/i] as Wales! Never mind Wales, you had a mob of Teuchters down there a couple of weekends running. My boys have Big Ben snowdomes to prove it 🙂
What worried me was the alarming rate it went from bad to mental in such a short period of time absolutley lawless so when the Armageddon day comes when/whatever that may be society will break down in a matter of hours... scary...that was a taster of when something serious happens how little power the police have...
What amused me was how a bit of rain seemed to kill them off. Who wants to riot in the rain?
Generally we sentence according to the severity of the crime, not the severity of the outcome
As it is not exclusively then the charge can still be made that it was excessive.
Re next weeks Operation Murdoch
We are completely committed to non-violence both physical and verbal - to each other and to all others, including the police and any non-supporters.We are committed to aiming to be non-discriminatory and to exercise mutual respect to each other and those we have dealings with.
Should be fine then?
Never mind Wales, you had a mob of Teuchters...
I can well believe that. I am only aware of the Welsh police in Croydon because they came in their vehicles with strange foreign words written on the sides.
My abiding memory of the riots is the ordinary people out on the streets next day, clearing up the mess. Now maybe it was selective reporting, maybe it wasn't. It seemed to fit the mood of those I know.
(edit) And Moonrakers too I believe.
[i]Dion is Cuidich[/i]
ninfan - MemberWhich principle of law do you suggest they ignored Northwind?
Fairness. Evenhandedness. (Nicholas Robinson got 6 months for stealing water after the riots; David Attoh got 1 day for stealing 2 burberry tshirts during the riots, and was released as having already served his sentence.) Bernard Moore got 20 weeks for attacking a Policeman during the riots.
Shereece Ashley was tried in the same court as Nicholas Robinson- she went out specifically to loot electrical goods, and was caught with a DVD player. 3 months, because that's obviously half as bad.
All because cases were rammed through as fast as possible without any attempt to maintain proportionality.
Proportionality. (6 months for stealing a bottle of water, 2 years for throwing a petrol bomb!) Adequate legal representation (people being defended by solicitors they'd met for just moments, who'd worked 20 hour shifts, who were giving advice based on normal sentencing guidelines) The Bail Act 1972 (refusing bail for people who posed no reoffending risk, and even some who'd handed themselves in so posed no flight risk) At least one Bench operating under the belief that there was a government directive in place that instructed them to jail all rioters. Taking innocent people to court to try and evict them because of the actions of others. Oh and UNICEF raised concerns that courts had breached the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child
Is that enough to be going on with? Justice doesn't brutalise, it's not premeditated and malicious, it's not a production line of ruined lives and pointless jail sentences.
It genuinely filled me with rage. Still does. A judge ranting at a defendant- "People like you, who have all the benefits of this country which others, in other countries, would pray for – you bring shame and disgrace upon the country as a whole, and upon yourselves and your families. You do nothing constructive, all you do is destructive.". A rant directed at a full time carer, not some "benefit scrounger" or "feral youth". This was the basis of his sentencing decision, "[i]people like you[/i]". Not fit to judge a fancy dress contest.
The Appeals Court ruled that it was wrong in principle to apply higher punishment to those who hadn't directly taken part in the rioting. In the process, they overturned a 5 month sentence which Manchester police had sent a celebratory tweet about. Gotcha!
I wonder how these judges sleep at night. I bloody hope they don't. They disgraced the country in a way the riots never could.
Who'd av thought it, the independent judiciary influenced by government, what next laws made at financial institutions/corporations/US interests behest, long established tax systems allowing our betters to reduce their bills to zero, politicians lying to appeal to the broadest cross section of voters, paying lip service to real issues and implementing laws to suit their sponsors agenda.
Burn all the parties HQ's down, they don't listen to violence do they, oh except they do don't they, in fact it's what they most fear, a mass rebellion and hence discourage/divide/distract at every opportunity, even though the state is the biggest bully on the block, wielding the stick when it see's fit both here and abroad.
History has proved over and over that human struggle has been necessary to get where we are. Going backwards seems to suit some though and undoubtedly there will be opportunists who take advantage along the way.
So these anti Murdoch riots planned....
Should we watch it on our tellies through our Sky Boxes or turn them off in disgust 😆
Who ever hears of fat men heading a riot, or herding together in turbulent mobs? No - no, your lean, hungry men who are continually worrying society, and setting the whole community by the ears.
The tone of that quote changes completely if you skim read it as 'a herding together of turbulent moobs'
Fairness. Evenhandedness. (Nicholas Robinson got 6 months for stealing water after the riots......
Not to dismiss the argument, because the sentencing post-riots wasn't even handed. But with a crime in a riot what you do is less relevant than 'being in a riot' - participating in a riot [i]is[/i] the crime. Its like comparing sentencing between two robberies - steeling a diamond tiara by just leaning over taking it, or taking someones club card points in lengthy ordeal at gun point. Sentencing is going to differ in those cases but the redeemable value of the points isn't the consideration.
Comparing two sentences and looking at the bounty people have taken is fruitless as the information missing is what the people actually did to take what they took and what was happening around them when the did it.
The issue with it being 'only' water is that very little personal gain for the sentence 'of being in a riot' but thats only for him to get annoyed with himself about - if he was thirsty then steeling a bottle of water on any other day or in any other place would have been a much better idea.
What the riots highlights is an issue the police and justice system faces all the time "we only catch the idiots". Prisons are full of idiots. Smarter people know not to get caught and if they do, they know whats worth getting caught for.
A factor when you get great gluts of criminal prosecutions is you have to use all the legal channels available to process them - so cases will go through differing courts and in front of differing levels of magistrate or judge. The sentencing available through those channels is different so by pot luck people can get different outcomes from similar crimes just because the people sentencing them have differing powers to sentence.
My understanding of the T shirts/bottles of water cases is that the circumstances and charges were different In the first place, the T-shirts case was charged with, and pled guilty to, theft by finding, we don't know what evidence there was about exactly how he came across the goods, but presumably there was no evidence that it was actually him that took them, whereas in the bottles of water case he was caught 'on the premises' and therefore charged with burglary - so you're comparing apples with tennis balls.
Or would the police still pussy foot around ???
The initial hesitancy only seemed to happen in London initially.
TBH with the police number cuts the Police will HAVE TO call in the Army at somepoint in the future if the samething happened.
I remember a clip of Manchester Police chasing/cutting off some rioters and bringing them down- there was some media condemnation. I thought it was proportional for the time and required. In normal circumstances, no. However rioting spreading out from London across major cities- the proportion/response had to be stepped upto overcome and re-establish order. Asking people to move on doesn't work if there is a pack mentality/numbers out number officers on the ground. Only force (sadly) worked in this very unusual occurance/situation.
Anyone know the clip? Police shoulder barged blokes off bikes etc. Clip shot from a flat looking down.
Our offices were really close to the centre/in Salford and I almost had to sleep in the offices 🙁
I was living in Dalston, Hackney at the time. I remember a burning bus on my road and my fence being ripped down to use as weapons/ stuff to throw. I also remember the turkish community cracking skulls if anyone dared to threaten their shops / property /restaurants etc.
All very exciting
and of course awful.
Lol @ bikebuoy. Very wise point rather list in the predictable posturing.
Can I point out it wasn't just London. Police station on my commute in Nottingham was (fairly ineffectively) fire bombed as well.
I don't have a problem with heavier sentencing for crimes committed under cover of a riot as per the judgement quoted earlier. The speed that a mob can take control is potentially very dangerous, punishment is partly intended to be a deterrent.
My sis in law lives in the centre of Birmingham in flats above a shiny Sainsburys. I was really worried that that store would go up in flames (it was actively being smashed/looted as I spoke to her). Thats not overthinking something considering buildings and shops were being actively torched. There was no way I could get to her either as all the roads had been closed off into central Birmingham. What if she had to get out - where would she go, onto the street? A lone female?
With that in mind- my family at real risk - I applauded the way the Police paused but then overcame the initial standard response and stamped out what was becoming a very surreal and scary situation for our country.
We've never had such before and hopefully we'll never ever see the same again.
Thanks to our lads and lasses in blue 😀 chapeau.
I can well believe that. I am only aware of the Welsh police in Croydon because they came in their vehicles with strange foreign words written on the sides.
RAYTHIST !!!!!!!!!!
This is not new found sentencing policy. In the context of a riot in Cambridge some 40 years ago, this court observed:
Just down the road form me as well. Bet there's never been such excitement in Cambridge since. Mind you in true Oxbridge style it took place in a 5 star hotel 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_House_riot
I can well believe that. I am only aware of the Welsh police in Croydon because they came in their vehicles with strange foreign words written on the sides.
Did they police the situation more or less heddlu than the Met, do you think?
Welsh? Reminds me of this...
I don't have a problem with heavier sentencing for crimes committed under cover of a riot as per the judgement quoted earlier. The speed that a mob can take control is potentially very dangerous, punishment is partly intended to be a deterrent.
+1
I'm from right by Hackney Central, let me tell you whatever greivances "the community" might have had it had absolutley nothing to do with their "rioting".
My mate ran the carhart warehouse the 2nd place they hit after JD sports, in between the 2 is the town hall, kinda think that might have been some kind of focal point for any greivances they might have had. Hell ****ing no, they skipped straight past it and started peeling the shutters of my mates shop.
The problem is trying to legaly distinguish such an event from say a mayday march that has gotten a little out of hand is really damn tricky, wheras i would be more than happy to see the looters rounded up and put in a pen for 20 years we have to leave space for those with justifable anger at the system some room to blow of steam...
All of those sentenced could have avoided any jail time or indeed any action at all by staying indoors and not being part of the riot. That's that as far as I'm concerned. The apologists should be ashamed of themselves.
Its well known- alot of the subriots are nothing to do with grievances its to do with naked opportunism.
They did target the Bang & Olufsen shop here in Manchester so at least a few of them had half a brain.
All of those sentenced could have avoided any jail time or indeed any action at all by staying indoors and not being part of the riot.
Don't be silly, they were all just innocent bystanders, caught in the mayhem whilst making their way home in the early hours of the morning...
hora - Member
Its well known- alot of the subriots are nothing to do with grievances its to do with naked opportunism.They did target the Bang & Olufsen shop here in Manchester so at least a few of them had half a brain.
Thing is though those wernt the sub riots they were the main event, the area the kid actually came from was fairly untouched as its not very affluent so there wasnt anything to steal...
Again the mayday marches, theres always a subset who are just out to **** shit up, but the protest itself is the main focus. This wasnt a riot it was just plain looting (the Hackney bit anyway, im aware there were other parts that were slightly less looty but this was just that).
joolsburger - MemberAll of those sentenced could have avoided any jail time or indeed any action at all by staying indoors and not being part of the riot. That's that as far as I'm concerned. The apologists should be ashamed of themselves.
Asbo-****ing-lootly.
Those that (the media) said were jailed for just picking up a bottle of water. don't you love the press? They were actually IN the riot, part of the riot and actively in a shop(s).
that was a taster of when something serious happens how little power the police have...
I've heard that said before (possibly on here) and from a serving officer I know. I think his words were "If people realised how few police there are and how far away they probably are there'd be a lot more crime".
e.g. West Mids police has about 8000 officers covering an area with a population of 3 million. If between a third and a quarter are on duty at any one time then police are outnumbered by at least 1200 to 1. If 1% of the population start to cause trouble then the police are outnumbered by 12 to 1. If two or three people are trying to break into a house at location X then you can be a mile down the road and be doing whatever you want because all the officers in the area are dealing with the first incident. If 100 people are smashing s**t up then you can be 10 miles away and probably do what you want because all of the officers in the region are dealing with the riot.
Hora
[i]Your Honour, my client was walking home at one in the morning after a busy day volunteering at the local animal shelter, when he saw a lost puppy wandering the streets, concerned for it's welfare my client went into the nearby shop that had earlier had its doors broken open by rioters to fetch the puppy a drink of water, with every intent of leaving payment on the counter.
unfortunately at this point the police arrived and arrested my client, who tried to explain to the officers his innocence, but the police sirens had scared away the puppy, leaving my client unable to demonstrate his intent, and instead of helping search for the puppy the officers threw him into the van and took him to the police station.[/i]
I remember one of the defences was quite similar- on the way home from work his route took him through the crowds..
Ironically 1.5miles from Salford and the city centre the streets were all quiet/and as normal. No distance sirens nothing.
on the way home from work his route took him through the crowds..
Where no doubt he happened upon a shopping trolley full of flatscreen TV's, which he was just wheeling to the local police station to report...
It's amazing how often misunderstandings like this take place when the police are involved!
Semi OT- recently in Huddersfield three youths assaulted another youth badly. One of the youths defence in court asked for them not to punish/give him any sort of record otherwise his client wouldn't get a visa to get into America to do his work exp/follow his dream.
So the Judge was supposed to say 'ok no problem off you go/we'll let you off'.
If rioting happens on a similar scale again it will be interesting, police numbers are significantly lower than in 2011 and certainly in my county the number of riot trained officers has also drastically reduced.
The Army in N.I:
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hora - MemberThose that (the media) said were jailed for just picking up a bottle of water. don't you love the press? They were actually IN the riot, part of the riot and actively in a shop(s).
Actually the media made it completely clear that he entered the shop. But no, he was never in the riot or part of the riot. That wasn't disputed by the court, it was never suggested otherwise and he wasn't charged with any other public order defence. You've basically imagined all of this.
Those that (the media) said were jailed for just picking up a bottle of water.
He walked into the looted store and stole a crate of water bottles.
The court heard that Robinson had spent Sunday evening with his girlfriend and on his way home at around 2.40am went into the Lidl’s store as it was looted, where he was spotted by officers with the water.“When he saw police his first reaction was to discard that case of bottled water. He accepts that he ran from the police. He was then arrested," said Mr Hussain.
Hind Ibrahim, defending, said Robinson had just completed the first year of a two-year college course in electrical engineering for which he has been receiving a small maintenance grant.
She said: “Mr Robinson is incredibly ashamed. It was opportunistic. He was walking past. He saw the store was unsecure and got caught got up in the moment.”