[Closed] London fire brigade strike

Threatening to strike on bonfire night ffs how very sad

Oddly enough bonfire night is never the busiest night anyway

Oh that's why they chose bonfire night then, thanks for clearing that one up 🙄

I'm sure you'd be happy with being sacked and re employed on a new completely different contract in whatever your line of work is would you?

TBH, they should all be sacked. Typical (left wing) Union behaviour - I really hope no one dies due to there irresponsible actions

its an obvious night to go for, maximum publicity and media exposure!

Oddly enough bonfire night is never the busiest night anyway

+1

and why do we celebrate a failed terrorist?

Dickbarton - your right i didn't want to strike, don't agree with striking and didn't vote to strike, however i also don't beleive in bullying an entire workforce, lying to the public, and going out of your way to inflame a situation that [u]could[/u] have been resolved, and so as a signed up union member i will adhere with the majorities decision and withdraw my labour when required, but i won't be picketing, if we are not locked out of our stations, which i beleive we will be then i would have hung about in case or rather when Asset co. royally **** up.

And as previously mentioned bonfire night is rarely busy, in our area mainly because the council work with us to identify and remove anything dumped that could be torched, identify shops that are hording or suppling illegal fireworks and alot of community awareness in schools etc. It's no wonder we don't have time to play pool and watch porn these days!!

its an obvious night to go for, maximum publicity and media exposure!

And shows how irresponsible they can be. Now priests are planning to stike over Christmas

priests schmiests, what if santa went on strike!

[b]Bazz[/b] i didn't want to strike, don't agree with striking and didn't vote to strike

Great system you've got going on, I hope you're never in need and someone walks past you

Sounds like another power struggle between militant union leaders and the management with the firefighters and the public as pawns. I think the OP should grow some balls and not go on strike if he isn't in support. The firefighters never do themselves any favors by striking like this, and from what I can gather the compromise being offered by management is not unreasonable. Certainly not offering my support to you.

Lanesra - what exactly do you mean by that partial quote?

djglover - suit yourself, but i can ensure you, and can honestly say to you that the fire and rescue services in this country are only as good and effective as they are because of the constant work the fire brigades union put in to combat constant attempts to cut budgets that would have a direct impact on the training we receive and the equipment we use.

i can ensure you, and can honestly say to you that the fire and rescue services in this country are only as good and effective as they are because

You aren't much use to me if my kids burn to death on the 5th of November

compromise being offered by management is not unreasonable

sign or be sacked? good compromise that........

A technicality, if its a change to terms and conditions you need a new contract.

You aren't much use to me if my kids burn to death on the 5th of November

+1

I wonder what bollox the unions would spout if (God forbid) something does actually happen as a direct consequence of fireman choosing to strike on bonfire night

djglover - suit yourself

I think he is very much suiting himself........by completely ignoring the fact that the decision to strike, was not made by the "militant union leaders" as he alleges.

djglover - regrettably true, and the only defence i can offer you is that as well as being a firefighter i'm also a worker, father, taxpayer and human being, i should be able to go to work in reasonable conditions without the threat of the sack for not agreeing to a new contract that will detrimentally affect my life, and the constant bullying that has become commonplace in the LFB.

Can I ask god forbid if you did have a fire in your home how quickly in minutes would you expect a fire appliance to arrive at your home?

djglover - regrettably true, and the only defence i can offer you is that as well as being a firefighter i'm also a worker, father, taxpayer and human being, i should be able to go to work in reasonable conditions without the threat of the sack for not agreeing to a new contract that will detrimentally affect my life, and the constant bullying that has become commonplace in the LFB.

Well I've never worked in an industry where I have a such a profound effect on the life and death of those that I serve, but I have been part of a unionised workforce that has negotiated pragmatically for changes in terms and conditions. As a result I had to work Saturdays, but I am grown up enough to understand that customers and markets change. It would appear that you are stuck in Victorian times

How convenient, that the militant leaders are strong enough to cajole the workforce into agreement to strike over a technicality. As far as I can gather the LFB are acting legally... and the strike appears to be over weather the union view section 188 as legal or not, no one on here knows what delaying tactics the union chiefs used to get to this situation, but I'm sceptical

Can I ask god forbid if you did have a fire in your home how quickly in minutes would you expect a fire appliance to arrive at your home?

Why do you ask that? What are you inferring, that you really aren't needed to be on duty in the numbers that you are, due to fire prevention technology? Mmm 🙄

You answer the question with a question?

again....how quickly in minutes would you expect a fire appliance to arrive at your home?

5

How convenient, that the militant leaders are strong enough to cajole the workforce into agreement to strike over a technicality.

You aren't much use to me if my kids burn to death on the 5th of November

Not knowing where you live but under current management proposals to close/redploy stations if you live in a "low risk area" it can take as long as 25 mins for the first appliance to arrive. I don't think that it should be post code times but its the "future" apparently.

Fit a working smoke detector or 2.

Not knowing where you live but under current management proposals to close/redploy stations if you live in a "low risk area" it can take as long as 25 mins for the first appliance to arrive. I don't think that it should be post code times but its the "future" apparently.

Have we still got any Green Goddesses?

Yes, but no-one left in the Armed Forces to put in them...

All the best Baz and Co,striking is the last port of call been there done that and thankfully for us the CWU ended up with a bigger say in the modernisation of Royal Mail with the people that are having to leave ending up with very good deals and fulltime staff staying fulltime.
Still not perfect @ work but its a lot better without the harresment,unachievable workloads and bullying and threats to our pay and conditions.Union membership in the CWU is rising as people are realising without them you are sitting ducks for mangement
The deal we struck would have never come about without mediators chosen by both sides to look @ both sides concerns so its probably what you guys need.
Management will lie and decieve with Murdock and his puppet government of choice helping willingly to smash any unionised workforce.

Good luck and stay strong and take what some of these keyboard warriors on here say with a pinch of salt but never forget ONCE A SCAB ALWAYS A SCAB!

Red Rich! 😉

Threatening to strike on bonfire night ffs how very sad

This mentality really annoys me - the whole point about strike action is to show how important your job is to society at large - hence air traffic controllers going on strike in the summer holidays, etc.

The responsibility for deaths and serious injuries that are fire-related in the London area on Bonfire Night falls on those people who caused those incidents in the first place.

The responsibility for deaths and serious injuries that are fire-related in the London area on Bonfire Night falls on those people who caused those incidents in the first place.

True - although even Ian Leahair has said if there were deaths he would "have to examine his conscience"

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2010/10/handling-my-first-breaking-news-story.html

So I take it no-ones concerned if we have deaths year on year due to cuts in cover?

What is the strike actually about? Isnt it just a slight change in shift patterns? How long have the negotiations been going on?

So I take it no-ones concerned if we have deaths year on year due to cuts in cover?

db: shift changes from 9/15 to 12/12 does not = cuts in cover now does it....

[i]Not knowing where you live but under current management proposals to close/redploy stations if you live in a "low risk area" it can take as long as 25 mins for the first appliance to arrive. I don't think that it should be post code times but its the "future" apparently.[/i]

Was going on the above quote from bruneep who appears to be a fireman.

I was asking for information/clarity - so sorry for asking.

I find myself agreeing with djglover 😕 so a lightening of the mood must be required.

bravohotel9er - Member

Have we still got any Green Goddesses?

[img] [/img]

Well my brigade currently has plans to shut 12 stations and open a new one. Get rid of 15 pumps. Reduce cover in a further 12 stations to day only nights covered by pager cover. Also terminating the contracts of all retained firefighters.

This is all in the next two years and they have told us this already so god knows what else is in the future. Apparently it won't affect cover tho. And turn out times have already been withdrawn as we wouldn't be able to meet them anymore

As has the equality targets as we aren't recruiting for at least 5 years and so wouldn't meet those govt targets either

Btw we have already had our hours changed and accepted it but this has left us open to these further reductions in service

Even more confused now, firemen on here claim that services are being cut, Stoner says it's just a change in shift patterns and no cuts to service/cover.

We have two years to make 25% savings

So I take it no-ones concerned if we have deaths year on year due to cuts in cover?

Stoner obviously is in the know and I know **** all. 🙄

The IRMP changes that are coming [b]will[/b] mean cuts in cover and services.

I learned from the last strike that the public believe what the government spin machine spouts out not the facts.

This time in 2 months time the public won't care about the FS and it will be some other Daily Mail headline that will grab their attention.

db - the text of the offer to the FBU is here:

http://www.london.fbu.org.uk/latenews/10222010.php

other than what appears to be some administrative changes the bulk of the change is only in shift patterns. Nothing about cover reductions.

bruneep - the original question was regarding the curent strike action. What was the quesiton put to you that you voted against then?

Stoner the trouble with this is as we found to our cost, that although the only initial change you see are hours. The fact is your on a new contract that is basically a blank sheet leaving you open to anything the employer wants.

fs - I dont disagree, but there's still no threats to cover made under the proposed changes is there? The strike ballot was held regarding shift patterns alone as far as I can tell.

Do you have the wording of the strike ballot? I cant find it online at the moment...

db: shift changes from 9/15 to 12/12 does not = cuts in cover now does it....

Did you miss the bit when one of our senior managers with a conscience leaked a document showing how they intended to use the equalization of the shifts to shut stations at night?

djglover - your last post confirms what i have suspected, that you are not fully aware of the facts in this dispute and are regurgitating right wing propaganda, do yourself a favour pop down to your local fire station and pick up a couple of free smoke alarms, the on duty watch will probably fit them for you if you need them to as well, and while your there ask them about the dispute and hear another perspective from the horses mouth. Bet you don't though.

again even Ian Leahair reiterates that the dispute is in respect to shift patterns alone:

The union held off announcing strike dates for 24 hours in order to give the London Fire Brigade a last chance ‘to do the sensible thing and withdraw the letters of dismissal so we can return to negotiating on the question of shift patterns,’ said FBU executive member for London, Ian Leahair.

http://wrp.org.uk/news/5736

(you dont know how moist I feel wandering around on the Workers Revolutionary Party website. Ernie would be proud of me... 😉 )

Have the Union and LFA sat down to discuss/negotiate the proposed shift patterns? And if they haven't, why are one/both parties stalling?

Stoner not in LFB.

But rest assured what happens (changes in contract) in LFB will quickly spread across the UK.

We're already suffering a pay cut for the next 3 yrs, job losses cuts in service, pension under threat.

The public only care about us when they call 999.

We are trying to protect the service we provide, but if you want a FS on the cheap and are willing to wait up to 25 mins for the first appliance to arrive, then welcome to the future.

I'm away out..............

Stoner there wasn't with ours either. Then a year down the line they tell us plans to do what I posted earlier. We currently have 49 stations by 2012 we will have 38 and 12 of those will be day crewing.

That's what they are fighting for to protect the future by not having a blank contract. As the employers aren't ever going to increase cover for sure. We were promised all sorts of things to protect stations when we agreed to change our hours and it was all rubbish. And the service will suffer as a result

I can't see us getting a car crash victim to hospital in the golden hour if it takes half hour to even get there. But no one will complain til they need the service or someone they know dies

Scamper - there have been negotiations but both sides are being particularly beligerent. The LFB moreso than the FBU. Its pretty rubbish employee relations stuff but the guy trying it on thinks he can "do a Reagan" and get away with it. I see humble pie for tea.

Brian Coleman is a man who polarises views. No one has a weak opinion about Brian. He's the ultimate marmite politician. He made it clear that no ground would be given. Indeed, when I put it to him that he was trying to do what Ronald Reagan did with the air traffic controllers, not only did he not deny it, he seemed to revel in the comparison. I pressed him several times on the fire cover which would be available on 5th November but he was unable to reassure me that the cover would be any better than it was on Saturday. I accused him of deploying the same bullying tactics the union were deploying, which he denied.

again from Iain Dale.

again from Iain Dale

You believe a Tory............. 🙄

Being blunt, I dont expect a Fire appliance to make it to me within 30 minutes as it is...which is why I own a number of fire extinguishers 😉

While feasibly they could cut the service in our area further (rural Worcestershire), it's so widespread already that I doubt it.

We're already suffering a pay cut for the next 3 yrs, job losses cuts in service, pension under threat.

I hate to say it, but really that's no less than the rest of the population face. There really is no such thing as a protected service, just varying levels of acceptance I guess.

bruneep - Dale is a journalist too and all that was taken from a transciption of his London radio show last night. You can listen to it if you want to, there's a link online.

tribal "dont listen to a tory" stuff does you a disservice, you're brighter than that arent you?

BTW this is the scariest quote:

At the end I asked what he would do if firefighters refused to sign the new contracts and it became clear that he really does intend to follow through on the threats to sack any firefighters who doesn't sign the new contracts which will be issued on 26 November. "What then?" I said. "We will rebuild the fire service,"

djglover - your last post confirms what i have suspected, that you are not fully aware of the facts in this dispute and are regurgitating right wing propaganda, do yourself a favour pop down to your local fire station and pick up a couple of free smoke alarms, the on duty watch will probably fit them for you if you need them to as well, and while your there ask them about the dispute and hear another perspective from the horses mouth. Bet you don't though

Well we can hear all about it from firefighters here and I have battery and hard wired smoke alarms in the house, 5 in total. I looked at right and left wing press and the union website before posting. I actually got the 188 bit from the Guardian. I have some symathy with your plight, but I don't support the strike if you haven't fully explored negotiations, seems the union want to go for maximum publicity by striking on 5 Nov before this could be resolved. Why were agreements not reached in the 90 day consultation period?

Scamper - Member
Have the Union and LFA sat down to discuss/negotiate the proposed shift patterns? And if they haven't, why are one/both parties stalling?

Yes there have been negotiations, earnestly since about June, so far everything the union has put forward, including proposing 24hour shifts, has been turned down flat, the employers have only made one offer in all this time but have invoked section 188 of the trade dispute act(?) as they don't believe enough progress is being made, which is true but mainly because the current form of negotiations is " Choice A or Choice B, or we will just sack you all and give you what we want" We want a negotiated settlement, hence the strikes, if they committed to negotiations without imposing an unnecessary deadline the strikes would stop immediately, unfortunately it does seem that the LFB aren't to keen on reaching a negotiated settlement.

djglover - it takes two to negotiate.

djglover - fair enough i see your some of your point and hope some of my last post explains a bit. I am far from a complete lefty but my honest opinion is that there is a concerted effort being made to break up the union in London, there have been occasions where this dispute could have probably been resolved or at least averted the strike action, but the senior management do seem to have gone out of their way to inflame situations and really aren't taking the negotiations seriously, and it would seem they have no intention to either, only another 31 day and they can legally start terminating contracts, from an insiders perspective it seems that that was always the plan.

I know that TJ, what did the union offer in terms of a compromise to the Options tabled, or did they just refuse. There are key pieces of info we don't have and it doesn't make either side look good, but it appears to make the union look worse. To me

dj - on the LFBU site:

At the meeting, the FBU set out its proposal for 24-hour shifts. Brigade representatives noted the proposal, sought clarification on a number of points, and said they would respond more fully in due course.

http://www.london.fbu.org.uk/latenews/10072010.php

whatever "24hr shifts" means.

Why not just cancel bonfire night or move it to decmber , the 25th sounds a good date.

Whenever they strike its going to cause concern and upset for peopl ewhos homes burn down, or get killed or injured in rta,s

bruneep - Dale is a journalist too

Political career

In May 2005, Dale stood in the general election as Conservative candidate for Norfolk North, losing to the Liberal Democrat incumbent, Norman Lamb; Lamb was elected with a 10,000 plus majority as opposed to 483 at the previous election, which he fought against David Prior. Subsequently Dale acted as chief of staff to the losing leadership candidate David Davis in the run-up to the 2005 Conservative Party leadership campaign. In August 2006, it was confirmed that he had been added to the Conservative 'Priority List' of candidates to fight the next general election. However his ambitions were further frustrated in 2007 when he applied for the Conservative candidacy for the safe seat Maidstone and The Weald, but failed to get past the first interview stage.

In October 2009 he ran for selection for the Conservative safe seat of Bracknell in order to succeed Andrew MacKay, who stepped down at the 2010 general election. Dale came third in the run off ballot behind Rory Stewart and the eventual winner Dr Philip Lee.

On 17 June 2010 Dale announced on his blog that he was resigning from the Conservative Party candidates list and would not be standing at any forthcoming parliamentary election.
Dale is noted for his sometimes provocative blog statements. The rescue of the Chilean miners he has referred to as a "bore-a-thon". he has compared Greenpeace protesters with Al-Qaeda terrorists and informed the employer of a protester at Parliament Square about his presence there during his lunch break.

Yup all round top guy.

There are key pieces of info we don't have and it doesn't make either side look good, [b]but it appears to make the union look worse[/b]

and that is what the management want.

err, yes bruneep. He's a tory AND a journalist...as I said. And those are trasncriptions of an interview, not editorial. Does his being a tory make them less true an account then?

He also is Editor of Total Poltics and interviewed Peter Mandelson recently.

He also publishes political books by such well-known tories as Peter Kilfoyle MP (Lab), Peter Watt (Lab general sec) , Paul Flynn MP (Lab) etc etc

Your point is?

you seem to hang on his every word

I read widely. so should you it seems.

Whats this about a threat to strike on bonfire night? Is that newspapers trolling?

24 hr shifts - Is that safe? My wife is a military nurse and is on her knees after two (in theory) 12 hour shifts on two following days.

djglover - Member
I know that TJ, what did the union offer in terms of a compromise to the Options tabled, or did they just refuse. There are key pieces of info we don't have and it doesn't make either side look good, but it appears to make the union look worse. To me

Your right it doesn't make things look good for us, one of the downsides of unionism in the 21st century, we don't have access to a lot of funds to spend on spin doctors like the management do (your money, if you pay tax, incidentally)and despite what the daily mail would have you believe, union leaders aren't manufactured in a Bob Crowe clone factory they are elected from within our ranks and may not be the worlds greatest pr specialists, pretty sure the info is out there though.

Its the quality of what you read not the quantity.

Scamper - Member
24 hr shifts - Is that safe? My wife is a military nurse and is on her knees after two (in theory) 12 hour shifts on two following days.

They are widely used in the U.S. and Canada as well as other parts of Europe i believe for firefighters, as long as adequate rest facilities are in place there shouldn't be a problem, no worse than 4 consecutive 12 hour shifts on 4 days as your wife will no doubt confirm.

Bazz - its just to make it easier to maintain a second job though isnt it?

Or is there an alterantive explanation for the FBUs demand for 24hr shifts over 12/12s?

It seems ok for Mr Coleman to have many jobs

[url= http://www.london.gov.uk/profile/brian-coleman/register-of-interests ]http://www.london.gov.uk/profile/brian-coleman/register-of-interests[/url]

Brian Coleman s understood to be the second highest paid councillor, on £118,499 a year. He gets £38,177 as a Barnet councillor and cabinet member — up from about £27,000 last year — plus £53,439 for sitting in the Assembly and £26,883 as chairman of London's fire service.

Mr Coleman said: “I work about 100 hours a week... and have had three days off since Christmas. I'm not pleading some special case, just saying that ... these salaries are not unreasonable.

and a competent Ff gets £28,199.

bruneep - if it makes you feel any better he only gets paid twice the hourly rate equivalent than a FF. Small mercies.

Anyway, back to the question - why are the FBU wedded to 24 hr shifts as opposed to 12/12s then?

Stoner - Member
Bazz - its just to make it easier to maintain a second job though isnt it?

Or is there an alterantive explanation for the FBUs demand for 24hr shifts over 12/12s?

Are you for real mate? seriously? Most firefighters i know don't have a second job, sure some do but they are the minority. Some the reason for 24hr shifts, for the employers it achieves all their stated goals of 12hr shifts plus it reduces stand bys by half and hence overtime payments by half, reduces vehicle moves and reduces shift changes to once every 24hrs instead of twice, for us it means we cut our journeys to and from work by half and the associated cost.

for us it means we cut our journeys to and from work by half and the associated cost.

so is that it? reducing commuting?

why are the FBU wedded to 24 hr shifts as opposed to 12/12s then?

Where did you get wedded from? Do you know how a union works? It was proposed by one of our branches (fire stations) and received enough support from members (firefighters) that the union negotiators were duty bound to put it forward in negotiations, had the LFB accepted it it would still have to go to a general vote as to whether it would have been finally accepted.

Stoner - Member
for us it means we cut our journeys to and from work by half and the associated cost.
so is that it? reducing commuting?

Well when your quite happy with your existing shift pattern and don't see the need for change because the arguments are weak any bonus is a bonus, i spend £180 a month commuting if i save half of this whilst on a 3 year pay freeze then i'd be in favour.

I'm probably missing something fundamental but how can a 24 hour shift be the same as two 12 hour shifts. Surely during the 12 hour shifts it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the fire fighters to be doing something during most of that time be it maintenance or fire prevention stuff as well as responding to call outs. Certainly if you work 12 on 12 off in manuafacturing you are working for those 12 hours (obviously with breaks). If you work a 24 hour shift surely we're not expecting people to be awake for 24 hours straight? Therefore there would be a reasonable expectation that there would be some significant rest periods within the 24hrs. Therefore we're paying people to be asleep so they can reduce their commutes.

From the outside it appears the FBU is living in a parellel universe. Maybe someone with more knowledge can explain it for me?

Wow i'm surprised it took this long for the rancid bitter right wing to leap on the "sleeping at night" bandwagon.

The proposed 24hr shifts were the same as one 12hr day shift and one 12hr night shift together, yes there is a stand down period in the night shift when we are "only" required to respond to emergency's, the same as there always has been, same as is in the current 12hr proposals by management, although it has been shortened a little bit, and the same as there always will be all the time we are required to maintain a rapid 24 hour a day 7 days a week response to emergency's.