[Closed] Lockdown 2 Guidance - Reasonable Interpretation

The guidance suggests that beaches and countryside are reasonable places to recreate yet does not list travel for exercise or recreation as permissible. It doesn’t say it isn’t either

Eh? So, what's the question?

No mistake.
Deliberately vague, and if it doesn't work then YOU did it wrong.

You should avoid all non-essential travel by private or public transport.

That appears very clear to me

The guidance suggests that beaches and countryside are reasonable places to recreate yet does not list travel for exercise or recreation as permissible.

I live in the countryside and am currently away from home living and working on the edge of a beach - they're presumable reasonable places for recreation if thats where you are and thats the recreational facility available. You can be there and have not travelled there.

I think theres likely to be a lot less of that kind of travel this time round - theres less daylight to make travelling any distance for the purpose of outdoor recreation an attractive proposition. Being lashed by sideways rain all day isn't how most people chose to enjoy their outdoor recreation either (says man who's been lashed by sideways rain for the last two weeks) By the time the lockdown starts that rain will probably have a few hard lumps in it.

Dancing with your partner on windy Tuesdays but in the shadows is still allowed

Seeing as you couldn't travel out of zone three areas I don't see why the spirit of this allows travel outside your local area.

As always rule one applies, any behaviour that uses a Dominic Cummings exemption means you fail it

Clear as mud. Is it the nearest countryside or the one you'd usually visit/exercise in? The peak district is about an hour away, is that okay? Will we see car parks blocked again when the hoardes descend on the honeypots because there's naff all else to do? Without explicit parameters there will be a load more self-appointed covid police telling those who live in less picturesque places to go home and only come back when they can spend money there again.

You should avoid all non-essential travel by private or public transport.

That appears very clear to me

I disagree. Some selected quotes from the guidance.

This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:

Essential travel includes, but is not limited to

So leaving the house for exercise is essential. Visiting public places is allowed. And essential travel is not limited to the specific items quoted (which doesn't include travel for exercise).

Ergo, travel for exercise and recreation is permitted. If not how would most city dwellers get to the parks, beaches, and countryside?

Either way we have two different interpretations, which is my issue. And because your interpretation is wrong, I hate you. Not really, but my point is that this lack of clarity is inciting discontent.

I think a significant proportion of us....me definitely included, will cite Barnard Castle Eye Test and carry on with outdoor exercise, including driving a few miles to do so, without any feeling of guilt whatsoever.

Lockdown, not lockdown.

This round feels like COVID theatre.

I was first to post on the first lockdown saying it was vague and got shot down as it was apparently very clear yet the ensuing weeks/ months was spent asking am I allowed to do this /that good luck OP.

I'm supposed to be having my bathroom refitted this month (November). So people are ok to come and work in my house, construction, according to the guidance. But I can't go and stay anywhere else as hotels will be closed and I won't be allowed to visit anyone else's house, so where the hell do I pee and shower?

If not how would most city dwellers get to the parks, beaches, and countryside?

Ignoring the fact cities have parks, they don’t as you can exercise from your doorstep.

Zzzzzz here we go again.

Just use your common sense. I appreciate the government seem to be lacking this, but please just do the right thing and stay safe.

We were hoping to move house before Christmas, I’m guessing that is out now? Luckily contracts haven’t been exchanged yet, I’m hoping when the clarification comes out moving will be allowed but I’m not holding my breath.

Was supposed to have my motorbike theory test a week on Monday too, I’ve been putting it off for ages and that’ll be delayed now. Bugger.

Zzzzzz here we go again.

I get that same feeling...

Whatever interpretive loopholes you managed to convince yourself of last time will probably serve you equally well this time.

Otherwise just apply Rule 1... Or don't, it's entirely up to you.

Seeing as you couldn’t travel out of zone three areas I don’t see why the spirit of this allows travel outside your local area.

As always rule one applies, any behaviour that uses a Dominic Cummings exemption means you fail it

Travel outside a tier 3 area was advised against. There's no mention of travel in the actual legislation. I'll continue to follow the actual law or ignore it as I see fit (see riding on footpaths). Advice from this government has absolutely zero impact on my decisions on what to do and I might follow it but it'll be only be because I'd naturally do whatever is suggested anyway.

Leeds is going into tier 3 on Monday, indoor exercise classes are advised against, even the council run leisure centres haven't yet decided if they're going to be running them or not.

I too am supposed to be moving house imminently. It has been imminent since the last lockdown mind... but we now have all the bits of paper lined up I think so it really does look like it is going to happen very soon. No idea if we are going to be able to do so in the next 4 weeks or if it has to be pushed back to December (which we were trying to avoid).

Just when we thought we were on the home run too!!!

Leeds is going into tier 3 on Monday,

Not anymore, All W Yorks is staying tier 2 till Thursday. Meaning the £60m support package we would have got for doing so is now not being given...

I too am supposed to be moving house imminently. It has been imminent since the last lockdown mind… but we now have all the bits of paper lined up I think so it really does look like it is going to happen very soon. No idea if we are going to be able to do so in the next 4 weeks or if it has to be pushed back to December (which we were trying to avoid).

Me too, now 8 months since offer accepted, supposed to go to exchange every week for the last 3, now pencilled in for Friday. Will be pushing for Wednesday. I say pushing, it could be more like this:

I too am supposed to be moving house imminently. It has been imminent since the last lockdown mind… but we now have all the bits of paper lined up I think so it really does look like it is going to happen very soon. No idea if we are going to be able to do so in the next 4 weeks or if it has to be pushed back to December (which we were trying to avoid).

Just when we thought we were on the home run too!!!

Same boat here. We're due to complete in 3 weeks. Looks like it should still be possible if everyone wants it to happen - Jenrick has tweeted that market is still open. Looking at the Welsh lockdown it seemed to more impact estate agent shops and in person viewings rather than the essential services needed to move - surveys, removals etc.

You would hope banks, land registry, councils etc would have better systems in place to handle WFH and office closures that caused so much disruption last time.

Just use your common sense.

And if my common sense varies greatly from yours?

I have been using my common sense for the last 6 months. I have not gone to the office even though it was open, I haven't gone to restaurants even though they were open, I haven't entered anyone else's house even though me and 4 others were allowed to etc,.

If the whole country had my common sense we wouldn't be in another lockdown...

OP - just read all the guidance in full. Last time I didn’t read past non essential travel, as travel to exercise or go out with the family to the beach isn’t essential.

So yes you can travel to a beach, but it still stands that the first bit of guidance was, is it essential.

Idiots are idiots though. Common sense would suggest that the best way to stop COVID spreading is to stay at home in your own household, shouldn’t need laws or guidance.

The fact is data shows the country needs to take action, common sense says do what you can to stop the spread, idiots will not change their behaviour

We made a catastrophic error and embarked on a building project in February, selling our comfortable warm convenient house in Lancashire. The project and living expenses are burning through our savings and house money. The house is twice the size it should be and villagers are hostile. Another newbie has started a feud with some influential locals on the village Watsapp, calling them NIMBYs for dobbing him into the police when they thought he had a visitor staying. Mrs Gti and I are stuck in a mouse-infested smelly bungalow in the village in worsening weather, bored mindless. My car has a fault and the nearest mechanic is an hour away. I can't drive because I'm only sleeping two hours a night and I fall asleep in the car. The builder says we can move in in December. We have booked the removal firm but our possessions are stored in two metal sea containers and I'm ready for everything to be covered in mildew, if we are allowed to move in. There may be no curtains or carpets when we move in. Gtijunior is stressed in student halls four hours away. I am deep into a breakdown and my mind is beginning to do some very weird and worrying things. There is nowhere I can go for some respite so I only see my breakdown worsening. Mirtazapine us helping but not enough. To be honest if I could get off the world tomorrow without harming family and friends I would.

If the whole country had my common sense we wouldn’t be in another lockdown…

Want a medal?

Ah! Bugger it must be tough for you guys who planned to move. It’s sadly essential though I think it was inevitable anyway not because of the lack of common sense but due some poor government decisions, we’re heading towards the main covid thread here so I’ll not go on.

Kerley if we all followed your common sense then we’d still be trying to get rid of all the good we panic bought.

OP they can not write every fine detail.  Travelling to exercise is not really essential if it involves going outside your local area. It’s pretty much that simple.

It’s pretty much that simple.

Except it isn't simple, its deliberately vague. You even had to caveat it with "pretty much" 🙂

There's the things that are allowed, the things that are not allowed, and a big grey area in the middle.

I did a poor job of titling this thread.

My OP is a statement of fury over the vague and unclear guidance. You can argue all you want that's it isn't clear but you're wrong. The very fact there are differing points of view on here demonstrates this.

This lack of clarity engenders arguments, and sets people against one another with judgement and derision.

Why not just have clear statement, like in Ireland. E.g. Travel is permitted for all leaving home reasons within a 10km radius of your home?

Unless you go for a "Severe Lockdown" like we had here in Spain back in mid-March, it must be almost impossible to "write down" rules to cover every possible scenario?

There will always be those people who are just "otherwise". You come across them every day . . . .

My OP is a statement of fury over the vague and unclear guidance. You can argue all you want that’s it isn’t clear but you’re wrong.

Well that’s cleared that up. 😂

Travel is permitted for all leaving home reasons within a 10km radius of your home?

What about those who live 7 miles from work?

I can go to work and be in very close contact with hundreds of students and other staff; but I can’t meet 2 mates outside to mountain bike. My daughter can go to college and be in crowded classrooms and even more crowded wet weather areas, but can’t walk to college with 2 of them or see them out of college. We are either in lock down or we are not.

Rule #1 applies.

Very few individuals, except maybe some business owners, are in a position where things are genuinely unclear.

Don't go out except for work, education, essential shopping, exercise or helping someone vulnerable.

If you are out, hands, face, space.

Do not meet up with anyone outside your household/bubble.

I don't see how anyone can struggle with this. The government have totally ****ed up communication throughout the pandemic, but too many people have used that as their "what if..." excuse.

I’m Dominic Cummings, the rules are for little people.

I don’t see how anyone can struggle with this

Really? Even though some of what you have written is contradictory to what is written here; https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november#meeting-with-family-and-friends

Rule #1 applies

On this we can agree but it goes both ways

^^^As per Lockdown 1, team righteous are out in force. Insulting those with different a interpretation and view to their own.

This is exactly my point. The vague guidance encites these shitty attitudes.

It's not a lockdown though, just like the last one wasn't.

Trying to control a virus while schools and universities are still open is like trying to clean your teeth while eating Wotsits.

I am partway through a week long holiday in England. Does this mean I have to cut it short ands come home early?

I am reminded that when this all started, Boris buggered off on holibobs for a week rather than staying home to do his job.

globalti - that sounds rough dude.

Don’t go out except for work, education, essential shopping, exercise or helping someone vulnerable.

Apart from they have added the word 'recreation' to the list this time. And the work thing - Scotland has had a work from home rule for weeks but business parks still full of cars in car parks for businesses where folk sit at computers - I think a need/want overhaul is probably needed.

Do not meet up with anyone outside your household/bubble.

Apart from you can. To exercise. One other person. Does that include a coffee from a takeaway afterwards? And, as it's sufficiently unclear where you do the exercise - can you and that person drive together?

If anything has been proved by the last 7 months its that most of us are self absorbed morons with very little thought for welfare beyond our own. We will twist our interpretations wherever possible. Because we are morons. We (actually, you in England) would not be having a second lockdown if we'd been able to exercise a bit more self discipline. But be can't. Because we are morons. We need a government able to wield a big stick and make it clearer and with consequences. But we elected a bunch of idiots without the ability to do that. Because we are morons.

^^^As per Lockdown 1, team righteous are out in force. Insulting those with different a interpretation and view to their own.

Converse view is ...team I'm ok jack because technically I'm.not breaking any rules..... But I'm not really helping the situation either but I'm ok cause I had my fun *

It's not about being ritchous it's about understanding what we are trying to achieve....but when you have a portion of society who believe it's a hoax and another portion who think it's not their problem

It's pissing in the wind.

* C. Father Fintan Stack.

It's clear from before that some personality types need and expect absolute clarity on the rules, while others are more comfortable with a little bit of vagueness.

Neither is "correct", though it should be noted that the public health messaging often allows a little wriggle room so as to remain applicable to everyone.

As before, the important thing is that enough people comply with the broad thrust of the restrictions. It worked then so it should work now, touch wood.

I am no fan of this government (putting it mildly, they have got blood on their hands already), but I think they've got it right this time.

I would be amazed if people who are moving house have to pause that process.

Edit: I do think keeping the schools open this time is potentially counter-productive though. And keeping further and higher education open is mad.

Sorry to read all that Globalti. Mental health has not been focused on enough through this pandemic.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much. There are some people who get a kick out of following the rules to the tee (they seem to mainly congregate on this forum) but I’d just use common sense - wash hands, don’t cough on old people etc etc

There are some people who get a kick out of following the rules to the tee (they seem to mainly congregate on this forum)

I think it would be more accurate (but less inflammatory, so you probably won't be interested) to say some people find it disheartening to observe others finding loopholes or blatantly disregarding measuring for their own benefit thus making all the suffering for naught.

Can

Edit: I do think keeping the schools open this time is potentially counter-productive though. And keeping further and higher education open is mad.

I wonder if the upside is that more kids will spend time in a vaguely controlled environment doing something productive, rather than congregating outside of school during a lockdown bored off their tits.

Not sure which is worse, the self righteous ones who want the lockdown to over as quickly as safely possible by, er, locking down, or the self righteous ones who don't seem to like that idea.

This is entirely the government's fault for ignoring the SAGE advice from 21st September.

You're just presenting a very flawed black/white argument that's every bit as unhelpful.

It is possible to support a lockdown but be able to appreciate different people will have different interpretations and needs. I do feel some of the lockdown fundamentalists come from a place of relative comfort making it easier to adopt that position.

I do feel some of the lockdown fundamentalists come from a place of relative comfort making it easier to adopt that position.

How do you see that? I would much rather do what I want, but the guidance from the PM is stay at home, save lives. Sounds pretty clear to me.

Prisons are full of people who can’t play by the rules of society

Shit happens

Big difference though is that the weather is now very different
Its not 24c and 10hrs of sunshine for the next 2 months like last time
The masses will not want to venture out in their £9.99 kagools fton Sports Direct ad its cold wet and windy
The masses will binge watch towie from the comfort of their dfs sofa
Its only ocd mountain bikers who go out and enjoy getting cold wet and muddy.

I do feel some of the lockdown fundamentalists come from a place of relative comfort making it easier to adopt that position.

It's noticeable that the vast majority who support lockdowns and expect everyone else to follow their interpretation of the guidance (rather than the actual law) tend to have secure jobs, spacious houses close to countryside, and are mainly able to work from home.

One might argue some of your reasoning behind this derives from your education. I believe this highlights why is IMO its wrong to disprupt/deny education. All the months and years connect, lead and produce pathways to higher education. Would a disruption in medical students produce a future problem where thousands of would be junior medical staff are either rushed through or simply missed producing a shortage for a few years? Just thinking aloud

Is it shit analogy bingo this morning?

You say clear guidelines then go to compare it to breaking the law. Which are not guidelines. For example, someone could drive from Middlesbrough and park outside my front door to go mtbing next Saturday. No laws would be broken, zero ****s would be given by me but the zealots would be frothing.

Earl
Free Member
globalti – that sounds rough dude.

@globalti - I'll second that hang in there.

Moving house?

https://yourherefordshire.co.uk/all/news/news-can-i-move-house-during-lockdown/

It’s noticeable that the vast majority who support lockdowns and expect everyone else to follow their interpretation of the guidance (rather than the actual law) tend to have secure jobs, spacious houses close to countryside, and are mainly able to work from home.

I tick the majority of the boxes.

My reason for wanting to follow common sense is that I want my parents to still be alive next year, the NHS to be able to treat people who turn up at hospital with COVID. The NHS to be able to treat people with other health conditions, for doctors not have to make decisions as to who should live and who should die.

I’ve seen the negative impact COVID has had so far. Obviously a lot of people still feel it will not effect them.

Big difference though is that the weather is now very different
Its not 24c and 10hrs of sunshine for the next 2 months like last time
The masses will not want to venture out in their £9.99 kagools fton Sports Direct ad its cold wet and windy
The masses will binge watch towie from the comfort of their dfs sofa
Its only ocd mountain bikers who go out and enjoy getting cold wet and muddy.

I was out on the bike on Thursday in light rain, wind and a balmy 10 degrees and was pleasantly surprised to see how many people were also out. Lots of them were the newbies too, easy to spot as they still had summer gear on but a waterproof jacket over the top. Really good to see some of them that I noticed in the spring struggling to do a lap of the local park are now doing laps with ease and continuing to do so after the weather has turned.

So while the majority may well be tucked up on the sofa or in bed there is a significant minority who are carrying on with their new fitness regimes. It's great to see this happening although it does mean the trails are still busy at times.

It’s noticeable that the vast majority who support lockdowns and expect everyone else to follow their interpretation of the guidance (rather than the actual law) tend to have secure jobs, spacious houses close to countryside, and are mainly able to work from home.

Lost my job end of August, stuck in a 1 bed flat and any countryside is a 45 minute ride across Cardiff. Still support lockdowns and trying to follow the rules as best I can.

It’s noticeable that the vast majority who support lockdowns and expect everyone else to follow their interpretation of the guidance (rather than the actual law) tend to have secure jobs, spacious houses close to countryside, and are mainly able to work from home.

Not really it’s a very mixed bag who support and don’t support it but there are those who will stretch the rules to fit their lifestyle and **** anyone else.

In my experience over the last 6 months opinions vary. I've worked throughout and spoken to many people from doctors, business men and women, barbers etc etc..(you name it). There definitely isn't just 1 or even 2 general concensus. I would say the majority of people ive spoken to worry more about the effects of lockdowns and restrictions than of the virus though.

As already noted, I'll be traveling as I see fit to go and exercise. We stuck to the original lockdown rules more strictly than anyone else we know. We've been to the pub 4 times since lockdown ffs....it was 4 times a week before! This time round....sorry but **** off. I'll now be a key worker anyway....music career of 15 years has gone to shit, so I'm a delivery driver.

Me and my gf are late 20's/early 30's.....about as low risk as you can get. In the past 4 years, we've sat and watched the general public and their common sense vote Brexit and vote for Boris Johnson. It's clear that the general public massively value self importance over the greater good. Well I tell you what, that's absolutely fine with me now. On my days off from a soul destroying minimum wage job, if I want to drive to go for a day in the mountains then that's just what I'm going to do.

It’s not a lockdown though, just like the last one wasn’t.

Trying to control a virus while schools and universities are still open is like trying to clean your teeth while eating Wotsits.

Most Uni's are residential. So long as the students stay in a Uni bubble it should be easy(ish) to contain.

Indoor schools is just a lost cause and they missed the chance forcing the kids back into classrooms and prohibiting masks just to make it worse.

...if you have lost your job and are shit scared worrying how you might keep your household afloat...im guessing you don't give 2 craps about measures, restrictions and rules...you might actually view them as luxuries. Try not to judge...this is hitting everyone in different ways

It’s noticeable that the vast majority who support lockdowns and expect everyone else to follow their interpretation of the guidance (rather than the actual law) tend to have secure jobs, spacious houses close to countryside, and are mainly able to work from home.

Absolute bollox... for a start all the pensioners who have already lost friends, the families of those pensioners.

Just don't be surprised when we are talking about lockdown 3.0

If nothing changes nothing will change and lockdown fatigue such as exhibited here is multiplied by many across the nation mean that lock down 2.0 is going to be a flop. - at least lock down 1 got the numbers uncontrol . But was badly managed from there on in

Or maybe there won’t be a lockdown 3.0. Maybe they will decide on a different approach because let’s face it this one isn’t ****ing working.

5 months or whatever we had before hasn't stopped it, so 1 month going into winter with schools and Uni's open is going to do jack - and then December, the whole country has 3 weeks to go Christmas shopping, so everywhere will be rammed.

I'll be carrying on anyway - working in Worcestershire and Wales, just hope I've got somewhere to stay

Maybe they will decide on a different approach

Say another mass ?*

* Another father Ted referance before the easy offended come out

5 months or whatever we had before hasn’t stopped it,

It wasn’t meant to stop it that was never the plan.

It’s noticeable that the vast majority who support lockdowns and expect everyone else to follow their interpretation of the guidance (rather than the actual law) tend to have secure jobs, spacious houses close to countryside, and are mainly able to work from home.

You are probably right....but.....

It staggers me that we don't have a better sense of collective self preservation. The people in smaller, crowded houses in higher density housing areas with insecure jobs are indeed the ones that find it hardest to comply. But they are also the ones with the most to lose both financially and healthwise. With eyes wide open they should be the ones MOST keen to do what they can to minimise the chance of it getting completely out of control because they have the most to lose. Statistically more likely to die or have their long term health damaged and statistically most likely to find themselves unable to find work in the future. If you were part of a crowd slowly being pushed towards a precipice the ones closest to the edge tend to push back hardest - why not now?

I feel a Chopper Read sketch would be appropriate at this point.

Me and my gf are late 20’s/early 30’s…..about as low risk as you can get. In the past 4 years, we’ve sat and watched the general public and their common sense vote Brexit and vote for Boris Johnson. It’s clear that the general public massively value self importance over the greater good. Well I tell you what, that’s absolutely fine with me now. On my days off from a soul destroying minimum wage job, if I want to drive to go for a day in the mountains then that’s just what I’m going to do

This kind of selfishness is what we are dealing with:

about as low risk as you can get

Its all about you eh?   What about the people you're potential infecting during your deliveries and handling of deliveries?  Where's your moral sense of responsibility for the people you could potentially infect & may die?

general public massively value self importance

Including you, obvs.

On my days off from a soul destroying minimum wage job

At least you have one.

that’s absolutely fine with me now

Its about you again

if I want

You, You, You, You and You.

The people in smaller, crowded house in higher density housing with insecure jobs are indeed the ones that find it hardest to comply. But they are also the ones with the most to lose both financially and healthwise. With eyes wide open they should be the ones MOST keen to do what they can to minimise the chance of it getting completely out of control because they have the most to lose.

Ah great, blame the poor!! Utter bollocks btw, around here it's mainly the cashed up early retirement crew that seem unable to follow any of the guidance. I'd also argue that they have the most to lose, you like erm....their actual life.

Edit just seen your little tantrum Kryton....haha!! Just wow!

Lockdown blah blah blah the one thing I'm taking from this thread is this line

is like trying to clean your teeth while eating Wotsits.

Ah great, blame the poor!! Utter bollocks btw, around here it’s mainly the cashed up early retirement crew that seem unable to follow any of the guidance. I’d also argue that they have the most to lose, you like erm….their actual life.

This is not about blame - this is about self preservation. I am not blaming you for losing your job in the music industry. Sorry to hear that. But at this point you can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Petulance makes you the former and I suspect you are better than that.

And you are right - there are plenty of oldies acting like twunts too. Some will no doubt die but many will toddle on their merry way as financially secure as they always were. On balance I'd rather be them riding this out as a retired type than you with a financial future and career on the edge of disaster. You have plenty more years of shite ahead of you than they have and a shed load less financial security.

>MoreCashThanDash

Rule #1 applies.

Very few individuals, except maybe some business owners, are in a position where things are genuinely unclear.

Don’t go out except for work, education, essential shopping, exercise or helping someone vulnerable.

If you are out, hands, face, space.

Do not meet up with anyone outside your household/bubble.

I don’t see how anyone can struggle with this. The government have totally **** up communication throughout the pandemic, but too many people have used that as their “what if…” excuse.

Worth posting again for the literate and Tom B.

Edit just seen your little tantrum Kryton….haha!! Just wow!

Tantrum?  Oh I forgot your just a kid, grow up matey there's no tantrums here, it took about 30 seconds to analyse your "its all about me" post.   With a bit of luck you've about 50-60 years of life left, you might think about having a care for others for one year within which we all need to make a few changes so that they might also have the same.

the cashed up early retirement crew

Aka people mature enough to make sensible decisions rather than 20/30yo's that are so precious they can't miss a piss up down the pub in spite of a deadly virus.

'Matey' I'd have a cursory glance over your last post before insinuating that anyone else might be illiterate.

People, if you start making this into personal attacks I’ll happily hand out breaks.

Aka people mature enough to make sensible decisions rather than 20/30yo’s that are so precious they can’t miss a piss up down the pub in spite of a deadly virus.

Yep that's right....one rule for the Boomers, and **** the people that will have to pay for it.

one rule for the Boomers

I think you'll find the rules apply to all of us.

**** the people that will have to pay for it.

I pay taxes and rely on the state as much as you do, I'll be just as impacted, why is it you think you're so different?

Where I live, people have been going to the pub, including me, but adhering to the rules.

But just to add to the above squabbles - these people range from 20's to 70's, from rich to poor, from uneducated, to very intelligent people.

Sometimes people just make their own choices, regardless of background