[Closed] Loch Ness Monster sighting in 1100s.

I'm sure I recall someone concluded that back in the day, during a flood, a Whale (of some kind) could theoretically get up the river into the Loch. Not sure if a whale would swim into fresh water, or if a whale big enough to be sensibly described as a monster could do it.

"fire sparking from its eyes" seems slightly less plausible!

Realistically, I can’t think of many parts of the river deep enough to conceal anything that big other than around the mouth. The river is clear water so you can see to the bottom even in the deeper bits, and it would be difficult for anything monster sized to remain unseen.

But when its deeper at high tide (which is still not particularly deep) it often looks black. Canals are only 3 or 4 ft deep but you can rarely see the bottom.

I used to walk along the River Ness to work every day. Seals chasing salmon create a stir in the water that makes them seem a lot bigger than they actually are - because the river bed is quite close to the surface the water displaced when they are going at speed is pushed up  - makes them look huge.

Nothing large swimming up would have got past the weir at Dochgarroch.

Gareth Williams' [url= https://www.orionbooks.co.uk/titles/gareth-williams/a-monstrous-commotion/9781409158738/ ]A Monstrous Commotion[/url] is a good read on the history of the search for the Loch Ness Monster.

I always wanted to believe that it existed but it seems to have been pretty thoroughly debunked now. It is always possible that marine mammals make it into the loch and I think that sturgeon were suggested too by someone.

Nothing large swimming up would have got past the weir at Dochgarroch.

Surely the weir would have been built at the same time as the canal which would be around Telford's time, maybe 200 years ago? It can't have been there in 1100, can it?

Sorry, that was my daily attempt at humour.

The weir was built and created Loch Dochfour which was necessary for the canal, yes.

Nothing large swimming up would have got past the weir at Dochgarroch

But if they're in an 1100s they could drive up the B862 instead

Odd that they chose 1st April to publish - you’d think they’d worry that people might ultimately doubt its seriousness

If it was fish doing the driving, surely they'd have been better off in a tank?

Realistically, I can’t think of many parts of the river deep enough to conceal anything that big other than around the mouth. The river is clear water so you can see to the bottom even in the deeper bits, and it would be difficult for anything monster sized to remain unseen.

Do you think the landscape and waterways are identical to how they looked a thousand years ago? In that time, whole rivers have altered course, towns have been lost completely and monsters have been invented. 😁

https://www.dailygrail.com/2018/07/this-famous-sea-serpent-story-might-actually-have-been-a-sighting-of-a-whale-penis/

Moby's Dick?

My word of the day has to be "palimpsest"

I haven't looked it up, I like to think it means something similar to "orgy"

Interesting thread! The depth of knowledge (much of it useless) amongst STW forum contributors never ceases to amaze me.

I've always been interested in geology because I'm a climber and because what's under the ground has such an effect on how we live. Scotland has two major faults, the Highland Boundary Fault (separates lowlands and highlands) and the Great Glen Fault. I always understood that the latter was actually so deep and the sides so steep and complex that a whole shoal of prehistoric monsters trapped by falling water levels could well be lurking in caves and overhangs in the rock walls. I thought this was quite feasible, but now I'm getting older and I read STW so I'm becoming more cynical.

idlejon

Do you think the landscape and waterways are identical to how they looked a thousand years ago? In that time, whole rivers have altered course, towns have been lost completely and monsters have been invented.

Fair comment, but the Ness is bound by mountains and high hills on each side, so there's not much room for variance, and this sighting was at the town of Inverness which has existed in that area since before the time of Brude.

If you substitute 'large animal' for 'monster', then it's easier to look at it objectively.

As for depth, the average depth of the North sea is about 300 feet, and Loch Ness is abpout twice that.

However, the river is relatively shallow in may places. Even without the weirs, there is a marked shallowing at the Islands, although in spate these can get completely covered.

Crocodile (unlikely IMO) or some sort of large aggressive seal seem the most likely scenario for Walter on Bingham's monster.

Leopard seal?

https://player.vimeo.com/video/160531334

Scotland has two major faults

"the Drink" and "the Tablet"

Fair comment, but the Ness is bound by mountains and high hills

And yes, fair comment in return. I shall keep my eyes open for the geology and monsters next month. 😀

but although it was much warmer back then

Not so, it's warmer than the medieval warming now. And getting warmer.

As for depth, the average depth of the North sea is about 300 feet, and Loch Ness is abpout twice that.

The North Sea maximum depth is well over 2,000 feet.

Crocodile (unlikely IMO) or some sort of large aggressive seal seem the most likely scenario for Walter on Bingham’s monster.

C'mon! It's completely made up!

I have no doubt that people have seen large waterborne animals from time to time in Loch Ness over the last thousand years and mistaken them for monsters but Walter's with fire spewing eyes eating a Coracle is just fantasy.

Edukator

Not so, it’s warmer than the medieval warming now. And getting warmer.

I was basing that on the history of the voyages of St Brendan the Navigator (around 500AD) which were above the recent ice lines, although how it compares to current ice, I have no idea.

St Brendan the Navigator

You were at school with St Brendan the Navigator weren't you OP? Or was he the year below you?

He was a few years ahead 🙂

You were at school with St Brendan the Navigator weren’t you OP?

Yeah, epicyclo was the janny.

2 things.
I'm not sure what;

sensational evidence for the existence of the Loch Ness Monster

would look like. But its not this.

Theres also something slightly weird about the story.
The fishermen he approached refused to take him across the river "with terror in their eyes".

So just how do you make a living fishing with a boat and some nets on a river that you are terrified of going onto?

Maybe they just didn't want to be alone in a small boat with a priest?

The fishermen he approached refused to take him across the river “with terror in their eyes”.

So just how do you make a living fishing with a boat and some nets on a river that you are terrified of going onto?

The Ness isn't really a river you'd try and cross in a boat at most times of day - even these days its not uncommon for people who jump / fall in to wash up dead on the other side of the firth. The nature of the river changes with the tides - there are points in the day where its quite deep and seemingly calm but it can be quite turbulent and  also gets very shallow and rapid.

So on the basis of that the whole thing is completely credible.

So on the basis of that the whole thing is completely credible.

No, you’ve not answered the question.

eat_the_pudding

...So just how do you make a living fishing with a boat and some nets on a river that you are terrified of going onto?

There's still plenty places in the world where large aquatic predators are a problem for fishermen. Experience teaches them to avoid entering the water when the predator is around.

eat_the_pudding

Member

So just how do you make a living fishing with a boat and some nets on a river that you are terrified of going onto?

Don't need a boat to fish on a river. I mean, it does beg the question of why they have a boat, but then again I have a bike I've literalyl never ridden so...

There’s still plenty places in the world where large aquatic predators are a problem for fishermen. Experience teaches them to avoid entering the water when the predator is around.

This.

A nasty animal turned up so they didn't dare go in until a few hours or a day later when it seemed to have gone away.

Loads of people swim off beaches that have sharks around from time time. They just don't go in then the sharks are about.

Of all the flaws in this story the fact the fishermen had taken the afternoon off on 'Special Monster Leave' doesn't even register.

Loads of people swim off beaches that have sharks around from time time. They just don’t go in then the sharks are about.

You do know attacks sharks are extremely rare because generally speaking they don't actually attack humans?

Theres also something slightly weird about the story.
The fishermen he approached refused to take him across the river “with terror in their eyes”.

You never take 1000 year old texts literally. He seems to have been writing an account of his travels through the wild parts of Britain, so just maybe embroidered his story a bit. The interesting bit - which seems to have bypassed some - is that he records a local story. Maybe a local fairytale. There was obviously a legend about a monster there already. Not necessarily that he really almost got eaten.

Compare Gerald of Wales, for instance. He wrote about King Arthur. Nobody believes that Arthur was a real person, but there’s a sound basis for the story. What was the origin of the LNM story - there must have been something that started it?

(No, I don’t believe there was a monster, but I’m interested in the way legends and stories are passed down.)

The drawing makes it look some unholy fish / big cat hybrid.

Surely such a beast is beyond the realms of human imagination?

Loads of people swim off beaches that have sharks around from time time. They just don’t go in then the sharks are about.

You do know attacks sharks are extremely rare because generally speaking they don’t actually attack humans?

There are beaches that have shark barriers, and when those barriers are down they don't swim. Maybe that's based on a false assumption on their part, but it's a direct parallel with the 'fishermen who don't dare fish' issue raised by eat_the_pudding.

Tell you what though. For every newspaper account you can find of someone killed by an aquatic monster with fire eyes I'll find you two of someone killed by a shark.

For every newspaper account you can find of someone killed by an aquatic monster with fire eyes I’ll find you two of someone killed by a shark.

Errrr! So acknowledging its a load of bollocks?

What was the origin of the LNM story – there must have been something that started it?

There are stories of lake monsters in many parts of the world. It's a common enough myth. Many of them will be based on folk disappearing, bodies being found, strange disturbances in the water.

What was the origin of the LNM story

Supporters of the myth point back to a mention is Saint Columba telling some sort of water beast to **** off in in the 6th Century but the story as we think of it now is really a product of the 1930s and theres not really much in the way of tradition stretching back before that.

Errrr! So acknowledging its a load of bollocks?

Depends on what 'its' is referring to.

Drac

Errrr! So acknowledging its a load of bollocks?

Depends if you're looking for a fiery eyed monster or a large animal that's predatory.

For example someone seeing a croc attack in the water isn't going to be able to give much of an accurate description if they didn't know what they were seeing. One maybe 2 seconds and there's nothing but a swirl.

As for sharks rarely attacking people, that's true, I've swum among them, but nonetheless a lass was dismembered in Australia the other day by them.

idlejon

Do you think the landscape and waterways are identical to how they looked a thousand years ago?

Revisiting my answer to this.

While it's likely the course of the Ness hasn't changed much. It could have been deeper around the town. Scotland has been rising a 1-2mm a year since the Ice Age, which means the sea level could have been at least a metre higher so the river mouth would have been deeper and wider near the town.

In nearby Dingwall, at a farm called Brae, a whale skeleton was found in the early 1800s in the the low lying swampy bit when it got drained for the agricultural improvements going on then. It certainly didn't walk there. 🙂

There are stories of lake monsters in many parts of the world. It’s a common enough myth. Many of them will be based on folk disappearing, bodies being found, strange disturbances in the water.

its interesting to think about why these myths of all sort appear and persist at all. I was listening to a lovely program about some of the nordic Christmas myths which are frankly pretty terrifying and quite an fascinating point was made - That in the time these stories originated that there were no fences and on safety rails. As a parent there was nothing to stop your children from wandering into danger so you told stories about the unknown that made your them want to cling to your side.

Mind you... then it turned out Purple Aki was real.

maccruiskeen

I was listening to a lovely program about some of the nordic Christmas myths which are frankly pretty terrifying and quite an fascinating point was made

Well, there were wolves and bears wandering around back then, not to mention the slavers. Probably a good idea. 🙂

Well, there were wolves and bears wandering around back then

Oh, my!

Mind you… then it turned out Purple Aki was real.

....and Purple Ronnie was fake.