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What’s the point of telling people what they’re absolutely determined not to hear?
You need to be very careful where the logical extension of that argument leads.
What’s the point of telling people what they’re absolutely determined not to hear?
Will you be extending that argument to climate change, for example?
"The Brexit debate has never closed..." - there is only debate about Brexit in the same way there is debate about decolonisation or closing the coal mines. They are all historical facts.
If there is a debate, it is about whether the UK should rejoin the EU, on what terms, and how soon. And the second and third issues really depend on how our 27 annoyed neighbours feel about the issue. I strongly suspect they'd like to see the UK with its shit together before speaking to us again, rather than banging on the pub door with a raging hangover asking to be let back in at 9am.
there is no point sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalala
So why are you doing it TJ?
The leader of the largest pro-EU says that when he speaks to people on their doorsteps they aren't talking about brexit, so for that reason he wants to concentrate on other issues.
Why are you pretending that brexit is a hot talking topic which was central to last week's local elections results?
Take your fingers out of your lugholes and listen to the main pro-EU party.
[politecamera action. Its not historical. We haven't even finished leaving yet!
61% rejoin 39% stay out
Labour is telling the rejoiners they are wrong and are fighting against public opinion which is only moving one way - to rejoin
Plaid, Greens and SNP have never stopped saying its wrong and we need to rejoin ASAP and will make sure the brexiteers cannot hide fromthe results of what they have done
Lib Dems are not the main pro EU party. SNP is
61% to 39% in favour of rejoin UK wide
Itss labourt and the brexiteers that are refusing to listento the public who have seen thru the brexit charade
If there is a debate, it is about whether the UK should rejoin the EU, on what terms, and how soon.
Verboten. Apparently. 🤷♂️
I'm looking forward the implementation of this new form of politics - maybe we can see how it works with Israel and Palestine. Or abortion in the US. Or gun control with the NRA in the US.
It will be great.
The LibDems got two and a half million more votes than the SNP. But keep your fingers in your ears and ignore that awkward fact.
Anyway back OT and the local elections, it would appear that one council still hasn't declared, I have no idea which one it is :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2023/england/results
Edit : I didn't read the link properly:
The final council, Redcar and Cleveland, will resume counting on Tuesday 9 May.
UKIP had two council seats on Redcar and Cleveland if they have lost those it takes their total loses to 27 with no wins.
Redcar and Cleveland
Yeah thanks.
I’m looking forward the implementation of this new form of politics – maybe we can see how it works with Israel and Palestine.
In this analogy, you are the PFLP, sitting in Damascus and "debating" Israel's existence. And meanwhile in Jerusalem....
^^^
So, presumably, the Palestinians just have to shut up because the Israelis don't want to hear it?
Sounds great, I wonder why they haven't tried it up until now. 🤔
Plaid, Greens and SNP have never stopped saying its wrong...
Plaid Cymru is the third most important party...in the Senedd! 🤣 These three parties put together have a 9% poll rating in this country.
https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/
So, presumably, the Palestinians just have to shut up because the Israelis don’t want to hear it?
No, on the contrary: the first step toward a Palestinian state is recognising that 1948 happened and there is no way of going back to the status quo ante. Or you can sit in Damascus in glorious denial.
SNP 45 seats. Lb dems 14
SNP 45 seats. Lb dems 14
Have you noticed that SNP votes are concentrated in one area of the UK whilst the LibDems have millions more votes throughout the UK?
The Labour Party has more MPs just in London than the SNP has in the whole of Scotland, just to put a perspective on the issue.
Yep – we are sat there with a 2, 4 and 6
It's worse than that. We hold Mr Bun the baker, the score card for poker, Miss Scarlet and a Dry Cleaning ticket.
SNP 45 seats. Lb dems 14
A variation on the Edinburgh Defence?
The best we can hope for is a Labour government that sees cooperation with our neighbours as preferable to confrontation
Hahah... hahaha...hahahah....
The labour party are just as anti- EU, racist and nationlistic as the Tories. Moreover, they are very happy being a shadow government, it's a comfortable space for them to exist in with FPTP, whilst pretending to be an alternative to the conservative pary... but being very carefull not to try too much.
Labour runing for government is a bit like Spud from trainspotting going to his mandatory job interview.
They have to look like they are trying, so they don't lose money, but not try so hard they actually get the job.
A wee dab of speed is just the ticket, eh?
But surely it would be better to stop being whoppers, admit the fail and try to sort it in a one-r.
Who would be responsible for trying to sort it out? Why haven't they?
Who would be responsible for trying to sort it out?
Not the UK government, and apparently not the main opposition either.
It’s a bit unfair to compare Ed Davey with Basil Fawlty just because he claims that “Voters are not blaming Brexit” Danny.
Ed Davey is obviously a nazi.
SNP 45 seats. Lb dems 14
Because of FPTP. I thought you were in favour of electoral reform?
Not the UK government
Why not?
Why not?
It was a rhetorical statement, maybe I should have done it in italic or put an emoji after it to make my sentiment more clear...
I'll try again...
Not the UK government(lol), and apparently not the main opposition either. 😉
“When I’m on the doorstep, people don’t talk about the House of Lords; they don’t talk about Brexit. What they’re talking about is the health service,” he said. “Voters are not blaming Brexit. What they talk about is the Tories’ incompetent policies.”
Assuming this to be both true and fair (ie, he wasn't going door-knocking asking leading questions about the NHS, say),
I expect that the vast majority of the electorate have Brexit Fatigue. This has been going on for several years now. Regardless of whether they're pro- or anti- anything, a lot of people are sick of it.
Out of those that still care, the remainers have been hearing "we won you lost shut up and get over it" for years and many are resigned to their fate; it's done, we left. One thing that the Leave evangelists were really good at was dressing up any challenge as an assault on democracy. OTOH the leavers really, really would like it for people to stop talking about it for, oh, I don't know, some unfathomable reason I cannot possibly imagine so I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to conclude.
And before anyone reaches for the [citation needed] button in reply, this is purely speculation on my part.
What's going on with Redcar, anyone know?
What’s going on with Redcar, anyone know?
It's basically scotland, so no one in england gives a shit, I guess is what Labour and the conservatives are thinking.
That's probably a fair assessment, but doesn't really explain why it requires three recounts. Well, a count and two recounts.
Unless they are having a count party? that would explain a lot....
As a viable alternative to the Tories, I was actually considering voting Labour, (Wiltshire didn’t have any elections this time), but with Starmer’s absolute refusal to behave like an opposition party leader and say, “y’know what, I do believe the Tories were wrong with the whole Brexit bit of a mess, and yes, there are a shit-ton of really important issues to deal with, but there’s nothing wrong with starting the conversation with the rest of the EU and getting the ball rolling”, I’m not inclined to. If we had had local elections, I’d have put that point across as forcefully as I could. I’d have been pushing on an open door with the Libs, and they might well have got a bunch of extra seats - around here, it’s always been a tussle between them and the Tories.
If you want a full explanation of why what the Lib-Dems say is irrelevant, see the Brexit thread. TLDR; Maybe they are pro-EU but if they get given a sniff of power they'll quickly abandon that stance so who cares what they say now?
Anyway, SNP are the biggest pro-EU party in Westminster. Dunno why people are trying to say they aren't.
Edit: Just realised that Davey is trying to cosy up to Starmer already, hence trying to say 'Well, people don't really care that much about the EU.'
I guess that's an improvement on just flat out lying to get elected and then going back on your own red lines for a sniff at the big boy table.
Anyway, SNP are the biggest pro-EU party in Westminster. Dunno why people are trying to say they aren’t.
They haven't. The SNP is far less popular than the lib dems in terms of votes, and has more MPs because of a) our electoral system, and b) only contesting a small number of seats.
They haven’t. The SNP is far less popular than the lib dems in terms of votes,
Well, since we're getting into the minutia of definitions, the SNP are actually the most popular party in the UK in terms of popular vote with 45%.
Based on the seats they contested, of course.
It's a pointless definition but arguing whether the Lib-Dems would be more or less popular if the UK had another voting system is equally pointless.
The Lib-Dems are a principle and policy vacuum and pretty much anything they say can be safely ignored as they will also ignore it if someone dangles a sniff of power in front of their noses.
Well, since we’re getting into the minutia of definitions, the SNP are actually the most popular party in the UK in terms of popular vote with 45%.
Based on the seats they contested, of course.
We were talking about the total number of votes they attract, which is small. Which you know perfectly well.
It’s a pointless definition but arguing whether the Lib-Dems would be more or less popular if the UK had another voting system is equally pointless.
I haven't. Stop making things up.
The Lib-Dems are a principle and policy vacuum and pretty much anything they say can be safely ignored as they will also ignore it if someone dangles a sniff of power in front of their noses.
That was certainly true last time. What makes you think the SNP would be different?
We were talking about the total number of votes they attract, which is small. Which you know perfectly well.
Only because they don't stand in many seats. Which you know perfectly well.
I haven’t. Stop making things up.
I'm not making things up. It really is a pointless definition and a pointless argument.
That was certainly true last time. What makes you think the SNP would be different?
Please don't make me repeat the same arguments all over again on every politics thread on STW. Been doing this for days on the Brexit thread, as I said earlier. However, here's another TLDR;
The SNP have a central tenet. The Lib-Dems don't. And they don't even have the excuse of potentially being the biggest party (no matter what Jo Swinson says).
They are a pointless non-entity and a stain on politics. Ask me again if they ever figure out something to stand for.
Only because they don’t stand in many seats. Which you know perfectly well.
Where they are popular. Perhaps Labour should only stand in London, they'd still have more MPs than the SNP. How about the Greens only stand in Brighton?
I’m not making things up. It really is a pointless definition and a pointless argument.
Stop doing it then.
The SNP have a central tenet
Pointless comment when it hasn't been tested.
Pointless comment when it hasn’t been tested.
Yes, and if they do decide to go back on independence commitments then I shall happily put them in the same class as the Lib-Dems and never consider voting for them again.
They will have proved themselves to be a principle and policy vacuum whose main concern is getting themselves some nice government jobs.
Just like the Lib-Dems.
So I can talk about Rejoin as long as I recognise that Remain is no longer possible?
You're developing some weird persecution complex where you're suggesting that it's "verboten" for you to talk about Remain or that someone is preventing you from trying to reopen the Brexit referendum. That's total fantasy, as the many, many pages of wibbling on both sides show. What is happening is that other posters are sharing their opinion on why doing what you suggest is bad politics and denying reality.
Just like the Lib-Dems.
Albeit far less popular.
the SNP are actually the most popular party in the UK in terms of popular vote with 45%.
Based on the seats they contested, of course.
That is such a weird argument..... the SNP are the most popular party in the UK because they get less than 50% support in less than 10% of the UK parliamentary constituencies - in the other 90% they have no support at all!
But if you really believe that the SNP enjoys such huge popularity in the UK the solution of how to achieve independence is obvious - stand in every UK parliamentary seat and after the next general election the SNP majority government can declare an independent Scotland.
Albeit far less popular.
Or far more popular.
I thought you said you didn't want to talk about pointless definitions?
That is such a weird argument…..
No, I said pointless argument.
That you guys seem to be obsessed with...
What we are seeing is the utter failure of a polarising 2 party FPTP system, wher3 parties are so broad they can never really represent anyone’s views. I’m somewhere between Labour/LD/Green.
Most of all though I want the tortes out and I will vote to facilitate that.
No, I said pointless argument.
That you guys seem to be obsessed with…
Well it's an argument that you made.
I wouldn't describe myself as being obsessed by it but I do find it quite fascinating that anyone should claim that the SNP is "the most popular party in the UK in terms of popular vote" based on how well they do in less than 10% of the UK's parliamentary seats.
Well it’s an argument that you made
No, you're the one who tried to make the argument that what Davey had to say was relevant and introduced some dubious electoral arithmetic to prove that we should listen to him.
Yes, my 'most popular party' argument was ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as yours.
I expect that the vast majority of the electorate have Brexit Fatigue. This has been going on for several years now. Regardless of whether they’re pro- or anti- anything, a lot of people are sick of it.
Sick enough to wave bye-bye to 5.5%+ of our GDP just to avoid mentioning it?
Apparently this BH is the big push to get us all to do voluntary work in our local areas in the name of Charlie Boy. I guess they're trying to make a head start as the decline of public services really starts to gain pace.
That 5.5% would sure come in handy.
No, you’re the one who tried to make the argument that what Davey had to say was relevant and introduced some dubious electoral arithmetic to prove that we should listen to him.
Er, I didn't mention anything about "popularity".
TJ said that people voted LibDem in last week's local elections because of the LibDem stance on brexit.
I pointed out that the leader of the LibDems claims that when he talks to people on their doorsteps they don't want to talk about brexit.
Which I think is a perfectly reasonable thing to point out. I have no idea why you think it is ridiculous for me to mention it or why it is in some way connected with how popular the SNP are.
Presumably you went off on one because I pointed out something which you found awkward?
Edit: And yes I also pointed out that the LibDems received a couple of million votes more than the SNP. I have no idea why you might feel it is unreasonable for me to point that out.
Most of all though I want the tortes out and I will vote to facilitate that.
I'm a big fan of tortes. Less keen on Tories though.
Presumably you went off on one because I pointed out something which you found awkward?
No, you just did your usual thing where in your mind you've made a very clever 'gotcha' move and you're clearly proud as punch of yourself and I thought I'd do my usual and point out how ridiculous your 'gotcha' move was.
Same old, same old...
I don't know why you think pointing out simple facts is "clever".
I don’t know why you think pointing out simple facts is “clever”.
I don't. Pointing out simple facts without context is your way of setting 'clever' traps for people and you get all excited when you think someone has fallen into one.
I just like pointing out how obvious what you're doing is and how it's not quite as clever as you think it is.
You think that pointing out a simple and straightforward fact is "a clever trap", how strange.
Anyway putting brexit and the SNP to one side, what do you think of the local elections results?
You think that pointing out a simple and straightforward fact without context is in the mind of someone who isn't quite as smart as they think they are, “a clever trap”, how strange.
FTFY
Anyway putting brexit and the SNP to one side, what do you think of the local elections results?
England gonna do what England gonna do. Nice to see the Greens do well though.
Ed Davey is obviously a nazi.
I missed that little gem. It's an odd thing to say about the only leader of a mainstream party (in England, at least) committed to the reversal of the biggest political gain the far right have made in decades. Plain odd. 🤷♂️
One minute Brexit isn't a live issue - the next it is, but only because remainers won't sit in obedient silence about it. I really can't keep up.
I do know, however, that flushing 5.5%+ of our GDP down the bog just so we can avoid mentioning Brexit is a bit weird.
You’re developing some weird persecution complex where you’re suggesting that it’s “verboten” for you to talk about Remain
As I said on the previous page, there are plenty that would love for this to be the case.
or that someone is preventing you from trying to reopen the Brexit referendum.
You can no more reopen the referendum than you could reopen the 2014 world cup. It's done, it's referended.
We could have another one. Or of course, we could finally accept that referenda are bloody stupid and what's actually required is for our politicians to put their big boy pants on and start acting in the best interests of the country rather than themselves.
It’s an odd thing to say about the only leader of a mainstream party
Well you would know danny. 😂
Sick enough to wave bye-bye to 5.5%+ of our GDP just to avoid mentioning it?
Probably.
You may be attributing a degree of political engagement that the majority of people simply don't have. In the referendum* around q quarter of those who were eligible to vote didn't even bother. Of those that do turn up on election day I'd bet that many couldn't name a single policy from their chosen party / candidate.
Plus of course, many of the True Believers will go through increasingly desperate mental logistics to blame negative impacts on anything other the brexit.
(* - chosen as an example as it's the only stat I know off the top of my head)
I pointed out that the leader of the LibDems claims that when he talks to people on their doorsteps they don’t want to talk about brexit.
There is a subtle but possibly fairly important difference between "don't want to" and "didn't."
I also mentioned this could just be Davey signaling to Starmer he's ready to have his belly rubbed.
Sick enough to wave bye-bye to 5.5%+ of our GDP just to avoid mentioning it?
You think people lie awake at night worrying about percentage points of GDP? Do they bollocks. The only people who care about GDP are economists and politicians. If GDP was the primary concern of voters they'd be working weekends and sending their kids out to work. The prosperity of voters is no longer tied to productivity gains, 'hard work' or small percentage changes in GDP. It hasn't been for decades. The people who gain or lose from changes in GDP are mostly those who are so rich they don't have to worry about it, so why would voters care about it? Why do you care about it?
@dantsw13 The thing is that we’ve never really had a two party system, certainly not since the beginning of the 20th century or thereabouts.
Maybe they are pro-EU but if they get given a sniff of power they’ll quickly abandon that stance so who cares what they say now?
To repeat myself again, any coalition agreement will have to be ratified by the party membership, which remains almost exclusively internationalist and pro-EU, even if this isn’t what the main focus of campaigning is at the moment. And after the 2010-15 experience a lot has been learned, the membership will be wary of any coalition and any coalition agreement would have to be drawn up much tighter. And Sir Ed is not Nick Clegg.
You’re developing some weird persecution complex where you’re suggesting that it’s “verboten” for you to talk about Remain
As I said on the previous page, there are plenty that would love for this to be the case.
Including all the brexiteers and apologists for labours position on this thread who would be delighted if we shut up about it as they would not feel the need to defend the indefensible and indeed some of whom have tried to shut folk up
Brexit is not over , all the border controls are not in place yet, more damage is still to be done, public opinion is moving away from brexit at a rate of knots and we will NEVER shut up about it and will continue to but the blame where it lies
Brexit is not over , all the border controls are not in place yet
Much to the annoyance of many rejoiners. They'll be extra disappointed now that the fingerprint and facial recognition checks are going to be delayed.
Not annoyed at all. Just its one of the things not implemented yet. threre are others especially onthe UK side of the border and numerous court cases ongoing for breach of the withdrawal treaty.
More annoying I would have thought for the brexiteers and their apologists who want to pretend its all over and that labour can make brexit work.
Its not over, its not going to go away and labour are swimming against the tide
I pointed out that the leader of the LibDems claims that when he talks to people on their doorsteps they don’t want to talk about brexit.
There is a subtle but possibly fairly important difference between “don’t want to” and “didn’t.”
There's some desperate straw clutching going on here. The leader of the largest pro-EU party claims that ordinary voters don't want to talk to him about brexit, and instead want to talk to him about other stuff which affects their lives.
It might be difficult for someone who lives in the reassuring security of the stw echo chamber to understand this, after all brexit eventually pops up on every political thread, including ones about local elections, but try to accept it is unlikely that Ed Davey's words are intended to mean anything other the obvious.
If you read the article which the quote comes from it makes that clear.
There’s some desperate straw clutching going on here. The leader of the largest pro-EU party claims that ordinary voters don’t want to talk to him about brexit, and instead want to talk to him about other stuff which affects their lives.
There is, you're quite right.
That isn't what the quote that you yourself (repeatedly) posted said, you've spun it. There are plenty of things I don't talk about on a daily basis but would happily do so if prompted. How long do you suppose a canvasser spends on each doorstep, do we reckon the residents are inviting him in for a three-course meal whilst they work their way through a list?
And lest we forget, these are local elections. I'd expect that rather than brexit, the burning issues du jour after the NHS would likely be the potholes on the high street, youths smoking weed outside Aldi and the amount of dogshit in the park.
I have to go out, I'll read the article when I get back. Apologies if I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick based on something you've posted taken out of context.
what do you think of the local elections results?
Everyone seems to be mentioning the 1000 seat losses for the Tories without mentioning that the 2019 baseline was one of the worst results for them in many many years, so this is awful for them. Which is great. I look forward to a number of fairly high profile/smug Tories getting their P45s handed to them (if they haven't decided to, ahem, pursue other directions in their careers by then).
Definite tactical voting (a la 'anyone but tories') going on and certainly a whiff of orchestrated lab/libdem coordination in certain seats too.
Interesting to see how the Libdem vote holds up in a GE, they've always benefitted from the protest vote at locals. Can see them being viable candidate for certain Tory marginals though.
Hopefully Reform UK also throw their boat in to water down the Tory vote even more.
So, do we think the NHS and the police will be better or worse resourced to deal with shit in the park, youths smoking weed behind Aldi etc when we now 'earn' £19 as a nation when it used to be £20?
Obvs police haven't dealt with dog shit in parks pretty much ever.
Sure, we can postulate that not all of that extra GDP would not trickle down, but no one can pretend that a country that is 94.5% as productive as it used to be will have as much to spend on services etc. Or are we just going to print more money?
If losing 5.5% is not an issue - why don't we go for 10% and maybe pull out of the Geneva Convention too?
@breatheeasy Rumour has it Gove has been reconsidering his future over the weekend…
Rumour has it Gove has been reconsidering his future over the weekend…
Well it was long evident that leading Brexiteers were going to be handsomely rewarded by the people whose bidding they were doing.
Plenty of consultancy work and non exec directorships to go around, I'm sure.
BTW - I was three minutes late to delete that post above. No one bother to reply to it, please, because I can't be bothered to engage further with anyone who seriously thinks pissing away 5.5%+ of our GDP is a price worth paying to not have to "mention ze brexit".
Sure, we can postulate that not all of that extra GDP would not trickle down, but no one can pretend that a country that is 94.5% as productive as it used to be will have as much to spend on services etc.
Government spending is not as a consequence of GDP despite what you believe.
It's a political choice and if anything when GDP drops the government should spend more to try and give life to the economy.
This logic is doing the rounds. It's tosh.
The flip side is I don't expect a Tory or Labour government to fix this through well targeted investment either.
Or far more popular.
Only if you make a weird circular argument and limit counting their support to the places they are popular.