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Im not as obsessed as the labour brexiteers who make this weird pretence that the can make brexit work and who deny the clear direction of public opinion
It weird the denial and attempted gaslighting
The public are not daft and despite labour's brexiteer stance public opinion is moving steadily to rejoin
Oh sod off TJ. At worst it's dogmatic debate but accusing people with a different opinion of obsessed gaslighting is below you.
Last point - I listened to the R4 news last night and the Oxford Prof of Politics was clear that right now don't frighten the horses remains the right tactic. Someone whose opinion carries far more gravitas than you no matter how many times you say it. I'd look it up and link to the interview but you aren't interested so **** it, I can't be bothered to waste the time.
I'm out - this is not debate, it's like talking to a wall.
The gaslighting is from the labour party pretending they can make brexit work.
Public opinion is clear as linked to earlier and tbese results arevery lukewarm for labour
Public opinion is clear as linked to earlier and tbese results arevery lukewarm for labour
You should share your views with the leader of the LibDems.
Davey counters that the UK’s relationship with Europe isn’t at the forefront of voters’ minds. “When I’m on the doorstep, people don’t talk about the House of Lords; they don’t talk about Brexit. What they’re talking about is the health service,” he said. “Voters are not blaming Brexit. What they talk about is the Tories’ incompetent policies.”
the polling is only going one way. another 18 months till the election. its rapid movement. BY the election even labout is going tohave to admit itsurely
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1649474567469932561?s=20
I know it’s hard for some people to accept that voters aren’t quite as right-wing and racist as they like to think they are, but sometimes they have to accept election results even if they don’t fit into their preferred narrative.
After 12 years of complete shit from the Tories a good number of people are still voting for them over other parties. Where I live the tories got 26 out of 48, so the voters of those 26 are presumably happy with what the tories have done/are doing?
Are they right wing and racist - the ones I have had the displeasure to speak with seem to be.
Anyway, lets see how the real election goes shall we.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday's local elections, not the lasted poll on the issue.
I have to assume that you couldn't find any evidence otherwise you would undoubtedly have provided it.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday’s local elections, not the lasted poll on the issue.
Brexit possibly wasn't the main issue.
However, Brexit is just part of the bigger problem which is Labour acting like a poor Tory tribute act and aping their greatest hits which all started with their u-turn on Brexit/the EU/SM/CU/FOM...
They should be out of sight by now and yet it doesn't even look like they are going to have a majority after the next GE. I'm not sure this election provides any evidence they are doing things right.
Think I'd be pushing Labour on anti-austerity rather than focussing on Brexit currently.
I'd imagine that's where the biggest bunch of progressives can come together.
Brexit just splits the people. As much as I despise Starmer's two faced approach to Brexit - it is better he leaves it alone for a while to fix other things.
And to state the obvious things were rough before Brexit so get your rose-tinted specs off.
Please, somebody, make the bickering stop
No way we're all gonna agree.
Just part of the process.
No way we’re all gonna agree.
Well I think that everyone on this thread agrees that the Tories are very bad people.
Imagine the bickering if stw reflected public opinion and more than 25% of contributors on this thread were Tory supporters.
Labour increased their councillor numbers by approx 25%, clearly a good result for them.
LD and Greens by 33% and 50%, so fair to say a better result for them.
Where I live, there has been a sitting conservative MP since 1923. And not only that, there's never been a Labour MP here or in any adjacent Constituency.
So any policies which grow Lib Dem support here naturally weaken the tories. Obviously Labour growing support back in their traditional areas does the same. Seems as if the Labour policy on Brexit is intended to deliver exactly this?
Well I think that everyone on this thread agrees that the Tories are very bad people.
For sure.
It would be great perhaps if there was more unity with pushing back on market driven economics otherwise it's a personality competence driven offensive.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday’s local elections, not the lasted poll on the issue.
I never said that so pointless in trying to show you evidence of something I didn't say
TJ you’re making stuff up. Labour did very well in leave voting areas, which tells you clearly that their policy on the EU is the right one.
TJ is clearly wrong that Labour is throwing votes on the bonfire in formerly Remain areas in England - the actual votes contradict this. It is also frankly nuts that any position softer than "Brexit was wrong and we want back into the EU immediately" is being described as Brexiteer.
But I wouldn't interpret that as a particular endorsement of Labour's Brexit and EU policy. I think it may also be a sign that voters just don't care about Brexit as passionately as STW would have you believe - especially in local elections.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday’s local elections, not the last poll on the issue.
I never said that so pointless in trying to show you evidence of something I didn’t say
So now you can't even remember what you posted. Among the many comments you made with regards to brexit alledgedly being "the" big issue of last Thursday's local elections was this:
Rejoin is now far more popular than stay out and the election results show this.
Provide evidence that brexit was such an important issue in last Thursday's local elections. Provide evidence of LibDem and Green politicians talking about brexit during the local election campaign, election leaflets focusing on brexit, newspaper articles discussing the role of brexit in the local elections campaigns, anything.
The leader of the LibDems claims that no one is talking about brexit on the doorstep, is he lying?
Anyone know what's happening in Redcar? Rumours of a third recount on Tue morning...
They struggle to count past double digits in Redcar, they are probably flying in an expert.
However, Brexit is just part of the bigger problem which is Labour acting like a poor Tory tribute act and aping their greatest hits which all started with their u-turn on Brexit/the EU/SM/CU/FOM…
I will never vote Labour in the near future on the basis of Brexit and their appeasement of the Tories. I don't care if there's a bigger plan - this is what matters to me. So I'm in a minority? Almost certainly, but I doubt it's a minority of one.
Yeah there's more than a whiff of corruption about that Redcar stuff
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1654802472165163014?t=jMNKPoL_SsQfGSV91Uq5pw&s=19
Yeah there’s more than a whiff of corruption about that Redcar stuff
The freeport stuff definitely is dodgy as hell.
I would guess for the count it was rather close and count 2 got a different result meaning they want another to figure which one is right.
Interested in TJ's take on this story. Presumably Labour would be better off not winning back brexit supporting voters in the former 'red wall'?
The previous Labour voters who swung to Boris' Get Brexit Done BS were bound to come back to Labour due to 2 main reasons;
- Brexit has been done (well that is what is said) and their lives are no different
- They voted in a Tory party and their lives are now worse
The few seats they might not take there and the polling is not clear that it would cost them would be far outweighed by the gains they would make in other remain areas.
Look at the gains lib dems and greens made. More than labour made.
The focus on being brexity is costing them dear.
The focus on being brexity is costing them dear.
I'd say that the focus on being Tory-y is costing them dear.
The previous Labour voters who swung to Boris’ Get Brexit Done BS were bound to come back to Labour due to 2 main reasons;
Yeah but the point is that if labour were pro-rejoin as TJ keeps going on about would those voters have voted labour? Seems pretty obvious to me that labour would be well and truly screwed if they followed TJ's advice. It's one of the few things that Starmer has got right.
Thats not what the local elections show.
Votes and seats gained for labour by being brexity leaves room for lib dems greens and snp to take seats.
The results from the locals show this cleary.
Labour winning over people who voted Tory at the last election (be it to push Brexit through or to keep Corbyn out) was always going to upset some of our armchair political strategists. It’s far from over the line yet… but it’s going far better than I expected… neck and neck between the two big parties with a year ‘till the next general election was the best I’d have dared to hope for looking forward in 2019… these local elections suggest that it’s going far far better than that… with the bonus that the other opposition parties also look to have revived their election chances. Last week was a good week.
We now have a Tory majority council.
Interestingly , the local Tory MP’s wife was booted out of her ward . Bet it’s nice in their house at the moment 😂
Let’s see if his promise to get all the money he has fought to get for the area spent.
I shan’t be holding my breath
Votes and seats gained for labour by being brexity leaves room for lib dems greens and snp to take seats.
So you'd prefer labour to be blocking the lib dems and greens rather than taking seats from the tories? That seems like a very odd position for someone who wants the tories out. From where I'm standing it's the perfect combination. Labour taking back the red wall from the tories, with the Lib Dems and perhaps greens taking seats from the tories in traditional tory areas. The only thing required for that to happen is Labour to stick to its policy on accepting brexit.
What Dazh said.
I don’t know why you all keep arguing with TJ over this. You aren’t going to change his mind. If you said the sky was blue he’d say it’s brexit. Let him have it. It doesn’t do anyone any harm. He’s like that Japanese soldier found in the woods twenty years after the rest of the world had moved on bless him.
So you are happy with labour following a course that makes a majority very unlikely?
They need to takes seats in remain areas but the locals show they can't do this.
Polling and the locals show pro eu parties did much better and the move towards rejoin is growing all the time.
Labour are chasing a shrinking narrowing sector at the expense of a growing sector.
the move towards rejoin is growing all the time
It’s a 10-15 years move, even if it happens at all. The election is about a year away. Wakey wakey. Another Tory government is not a price worth paying to try and make a point about longer term plans with our neighbours. Labour can (not saying they will, but they can if in office) start working towards a closer rather than more distant relationship with the EU in less than two years time, making any future closer arrangements (be that membership or something else) more achievable sooner.
[ EDIT: although if your aim is an independent Scotland in the EU or SM, then perhaps another Tory government is the price worth paying to achieve that. ]
So you'd prefer a course that makes a Tory majority more likely TJ? Given you'll be voting SNP, wouldn't a coalition be more likely to suit you?
I dont vote snp
The locals and the polling shows pro eu is a vote and seat winner overall and public mood is moving forther to rejoin.
Labours being brexity is reducing their chances of a najority
It not a 10 or 15 year move in public opinion to rejoin. Its moving rapidly and is now 61 to 39 percent.
Starmer is chasing a shrinking sector of the elctorate
No, but it’ll take 10-15 years to happen, if it ever does. No point making this next general election about it.
Someone upthread said that the parties have access to voter records. Is that true? I voted tactically for the greens. Just noticed that the local green candidate has popped up to the top of my Facebook ‘people you might know’ list.
Makes you think…
They can get an annotated register which tells them who voted, but not how they voted.
They have records of what voters tell them on the doorstep. That’s why they ask you.
We now have a Green district council, it will be interesting to se how they get on.
So you are happy with labour following a course that makes a majority very unlikely?
Well firstly I think labour's EU policy is the only way they will ever gain a majority. 2019 gave us all the evidence we need to see that, and brexit is still a live issue (thanks to remainers who won't accept reality) so labour don't have the luxury of ignoring it. Secondly, even if you were right (you're not), I don't really have a problem with labour not having an outright majority. Given Starmer's propensity to bin almost all progressive policies in favour of tory austerity economics, I reckon some lib dems and/or greens pulling him back to the centre would be a good thing.
TBH despite my dislike of the lib dems, Starmer has swung so far to the right that I'd take Ed Davey over him any day.
brexit is still a live issue (thanks to remainers who won’t accept reality)
🤣
Brexit isn't even finished as a process yet. Uk still has to implement customs controls properly
brexit is still a live issue (thanks to remainers who won’t accept reality)
Yep, that’s the only reason it’s still a live issue, incisive as ever.
The problem with Brexit is that the process divided the country.
No sane politician wants to take the country through all that shit again even if rejoining is a good idea.
The UK will just have to do the best with the cards it holds.
Spot on Dangerousbeans.
(Although it was damn obvious at the time and I could see Corbyn simply not being able to reconcile it.)
The UK will just have to do the best with the cards it holds.
Yep - we are sat there with a 2, 4 and 6
Yep – we are sat there with a 2, 4 and 6
And the other players at the table know it. 🤦
Yep – we are sat there with a 2, 4 and 6
I know but that's where we are.
I was one of the most vocal remainers out there, Brexit cost my eldest son his PhD being fully funded with an attached paid research post.
The country will have to make the best of it and we will have to do the best we can within it.
I very much look after me and mine nowadays; that was probably my most valuable lesson from the Brexit process.
It's good to see the tories take a battering, but even better to see the lost tory votes were split between Labour, Lib dems and greens about 40/30/30 respectivley.
Make no mistake, this wasn't a pro-labour result, it was an anti-tory result.
We can hope, hopefully for a hung parliament come GE with Labour forced into coalition or some sort of more mature power sharing agreement with the Dems or Greens, or even both.
Aside from reversing brexit we desperatley need PR.
Youll never get that with the two party system, it suits both Labour and the tories too much, and that's dangerous.
The country will have to make the best of it and we will have to do the best we can within it.
this is not the truth which is why pro EU parties did better than brexiteer parties in the local electionsand the polling
The country will have to make the best of it and we will have to do the best we can within it.
If you mean by steadily reversing it, bit by bit, then perhaps. But surely it would be better to stop being whoppers, admit the fail and try to sort it in a one-r.
Unless you think that remaining in a permanent state of economically damaging limbo to avoid upsetting the sensibilities of Leavers is the way of a grownup country?
this is not the truth which is why pro EU parties did better than brexiteer parties in the local electionsand the polling
Not really true, Labour are a pro-brexit party and they did pretty well.
which is why pro EU parties did better than brexiteer parties in the local electionsand the polling
Are you still pumping out this bollocks that last week's local elections was all about brexit?!? 🤣😂🤣
The UK will just have to do the best with the cards it holds.
No.. that's a bit like telling Americans that abortion is now illegal so they just have to accept it and make the best of it.
And It's legal for a 16Yo to buy an assault rifle, get over it!
Nope, nope, nope.
Are you still pumping out this bollocks that last week’s local elections was all about brexit?!?
Try reading what I actually wrote
Not really true, Labour are a pro-brexit party and they did pretty well.
they didn't. tories in disarray losing 1000 seats and labour does not even pick up half of them/
the pro EU parties lib demand Green did much better with a m,uch larger % of sets gained to seats previously held
Its a meh result for labour. they should and could have done so much better
Try reading what I actually wrote
I copied and pasted what you "actually wrote"!
Here it is again:
which is why pro EU parties did better than brexiteer parties in the local electionsand the polling
You are very clearly saying that where a party stands on brexit affected the local election results.
Most reasonable people know that is nonsense, including the leader of the LibDems Ed Davey:
But what about Labour? Doesn’t the party’s refusal to countenance rejoining the European single market and reinstating free movement provide an opening for the Lib Dems? Davey counters that the UK’s relationship with Europe isn’t at the forefront of voters’ minds. “When I’m on the doorstep, people don’t talk about the House of Lords; they don’t talk about Brexit. What they’re talking about is the health service,” he said. “Voters are not blaming Brexit. What they talk about is the Tories’ incompetent policies.”
Those are the words of the leader of the largest "pro EU" party.
No.. that’s a bit like telling Americans that abortion is now illegal so they just have to accept it and make the best of it.
And It’s legal for a 16Yo to buy an assault rifle, get over it!
Nope, nope, nope.
Tell me tomorrow that we've rejoined and I'll be over the moon.
However, in my opinion, the subject is still a poisoned chalice for the political class so we will, at least for the time being, get on with it.
All I can do is the best for me and mine, even if the country, and many of it's citizens are getting poorer.
Ernie - you finnaly read it!
You are very clearly saying that where a party stands on brexit affected the local election results.
Correct. Its clearly did
I did not say
that last week’s local elections was all about brexit?!?
You are so blinded by being an enthusastic brexiteer that you cannot see what is in front of your face
dangerousbeans: I’ve heard this before, perhaps it was you? That “it’s just about me and mine now, since brexit”. Just wondering what altruistic deeds you were doing for your country/community etc before brexit which you have now stopped?
Don’t take it the wrong way, just genuinely interested to know.
pro EU parties did better than brexiteer parties in the local electionsand the polling
It's just nonsense. If you believe that Labour is a Brexiteer party (as you do), then Brexiteer parties picked up just under 70% of the vote.
The Lib Dem and Green gains are noticeable - but it's off the back of the Greens being a microparty and Lib Dems having been wiped out. They're starting from such a low base that any gain seems dramatic.
Meanwhile...
No sane politician wants to take the country through all that shit again
On the contrary, I think Sunak would be ecstatic if the next election were a Brexit election. As TJ's poll results linked above mention, even the Brexiteers who think Brexit has led to a decrease in living standards think it was a good idea. The Tory base still loves Brexit. And at the last Brexit GE, Labour shot itself in each foot, and the Lib Dems nuked themselves into megaobscurity. Another Brexit GE sounds great to Rishi!
All I can do is the best for me and mine, even if the country, and many of it’s citizens are getting poorer.
Which is a very Tory thing to say.
Brexit will be a big issue at the next election no matter how much the brexiteer parties do not want it to be. Plaid Greens and SNP will make it so even if lib dems do not join them
You really like dancing on the head of a pin TJ. You are clearly saying that the defining factor in Thursday's local elections was brexit.
Blinded by your total obsession with brexit you cannot see the nonsense in that claim. However the leader of the LibDems certainly can, in fact he makes the very point that voters aren't interested in talking about brexit it is other issues which concern them.
Is this because Ed Davey is such an enthusastic brexiteer that he cannot see what is in front of his face?
Read it again, although you probably didn't even bother previously as it obviously doesn't fit comfortably into your preferred narrative:
"When I’m on the doorstep, people don’t talk about the House of Lords; they don’t talk about Brexit. What they’re talking about is the health service,” he said. “Voters are not blaming Brexit. What they talk about is the Tories’ incompetent policies.”
Someone upthread said that the parties have access to voter records. Is that true?
Nope. At least not how you voted.
They have access to the electoral roll.
They can then add their own information which is part of the idea behind going door to door. Its not just to try and persuade you to vote for them but also record that "fact".
Then on election day they may (personally I have only ever seen this once but then I have always lived in safe seats so not sure why they bothered that time) have volunteers called tellers outside the voting station who ask you for your name and address. As the day progresses they can check who has voted and send volunteers round to encourage you to vote.
The chances of them sending the person to remind you may depend on whether your previous response on the doorstep was "I would vote for Satan if he was the best candidate to defeat you" or "yes I love you".
So, if we accept that rufty-tufty, bring back the birch, straight-talking Leavers can't be upset at having their epic fail pointed out to them...
How long are we expecting this Basil Fawlty-esque "don't mention the Brexit" phase to last? 10 years? 20?
It's a bit unfair to compare Ed Davey with Basil Fawlty just because he claims that “Voters are not blaming Brexit" Danny.
Just wondering what altruistic deeds you were doing for your country/community etc before brexit which you have now stopped?
I haven't stopped doing anything I did before, I consider my community part of me and mine, that includes adults with learning disabilities which is my day job.
Admittedly it's only a couple of hours a week now, but I am getting on in years.
The national situation is out of my hands, there's nothing I can do but look after me and mine.
It’s a bit unfair to compare Ed Davey with Basil Fawlty just because he claims that “Voters are not blaming Brexit”
I meant in general - as well you know.
How long before it will be considered acceptable to risk upsetting those hard as nails, tell-it-like-it-is, Leavers by telling them the truth?
If it is a conscious strategy to avoid any mention then surely it has to have an end point.
Or are we seriously saying we are going to wave bye bye to 5.5%+ of our GDP indefinitely? Because the people who are, apparently, absolutely not snowflakes can't cope with being shown the consequences of their actions?
It's a straight question - just say "I don't know" if you need.
I don't know Danny, perhaps brexit will be a major issue next general election. I suspect probably not but who knows?
How long before it will be considered acceptable to risk upsetting those hard as nails, tell-it-like-it-is, Leavers by telling them the truth?
What’s the point of telling people what they’re absolutely determined not to hear?
It’s not like all this wasn’t predicted, is it?
As a politician you’d have to be absolutely out of your mind to reopen the whole Brexit debate, as (despite what TJ thinks) there’s little or nothing to be gained by doing so.
People have more pressing concerns than re-fighting yesterday’s idealogical war
We’re out of the EU. I don’t like that fact any more than Uncle Jezza but that’s where we are
The best we can hope for is a Labour government that sees cooperation with our neighbours as preferable to confrontation
The brexit debate has never closed and the pro EU parties willmake it a debating point at the next GE
there is no point sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalala and pretending its not happening
We haven't even finished leaving yet!
Don't know why you're answering two people at once...?
So, it might organically become a major issue just so long as those of us who can see the damage keep schtum?
Well that's really cleared thing up. I'm not sure it is how debate and politics normally work, but I guess everything has changed now. 🤷♂️