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What does everyone think of this then?
My local spot (a bit more than trails, a little less than a bike park) Bull track has announced their membership prices for 2024:
Normal bike = £80 (raised from £55 a couple of years ago)
Ebike = £150 (introduced this year)
If you don't know it, I guess I would summarise it as: Small, fun but poorly maintained, no facilities staff or costs apparent (bar insurance), very little progression for beginners and open approx March-October.
What do you think of those prices?
Could be a green tax.
£2 a week for a normal bike doesn't seem too bad tbh.
I don't know about ebikes, but presumably ebikers can get more laps/runs in, and so cause more trail erosion?
You'll get more runs in on an engine bike so paying more should be expected.
See also higher wear due to the weight.
The ride up price for eBikes has risen steadily at most parks over the last couple of years. I can understand paying more than a normal bike, but double seems a bit much.
Small, fun but poorly maintained, no facilities
It's a bit of a Catch 22 isn't it. If they don't make enough money from subscription fees then they'll never be able to afford to improve the facilities. If the facilities aren't improved then people are less likely to want to invest in the place.
Meanwhile, people are complaining "how hard can it be?" as their little brother built a bike park in their back yard last week.
Sounds oddly familiar, really.
costs apparent (bar insurance)
I'd have thought you could request a copy of their accounts, then you can remove "apparent" as an unknown variable.
See also higher wear due to the weight.
Not necessarily so. What's an ebike, an extra 15kgs?
Do heavy non-eeb riders get charged extra too? Do 60kg racing snakes get a discount?
ebikes I think are usually around 8kg extra, unless you compare a lightweight one to a Privateer, then it's an possibly lighter by 1-2kg
I'm not too far from Bull Track, but I've never been as I usually try and fit all my riding in early so I don't miss too much of the weekend with the kids and they don't open until 10am.
Seems pricey compared to the much bigger BPW at 317 for 11 months (ebike season pass)
How much is a day pass?
Not necessarily so. What’s an ebike, an extra 15kgs?
Don't be silly, a lot of people in this locale think they weight as much as a MX bike and put out as much power.
Do heavy non-eeb riders get charged extra too? Do 60kg racing snakes get a discount?
Back in the real world, I am 115kgs, my ebike 17kgs, its barely noticeable compared to my weight! So yeah I would expect a fatness tax if this was based on weight. I suspect its based in eBikers are richer as its main statistic!
Although if that includes parking, and the trails are OK £150 is still quite cheap!
Do Privateer non-eeb owners have to pay the eeb price as well then? 😉
Edit: gah, beaten to it. But it's really about the extra runs innit.
I'd have thought £120 might have been fairer though tbh
It's the power and speed that causes the wear more than the weight.
I'm not the bike park demographic, my steel hard tail ebike conversion with 960ah battery weighs about 25kg as ridden (tools, spares, water etc), which is why I said maybe 15kg extra. I'm larger than the average bear too.
Can't imagine I'd ever own, need or afford a privateer 🤣
Pricing based on extra use though seems fair enough to me.
It’s the power and speed that causes the wear more than the weight.
But in a bike park type scenario that doesn’t really apply, maybe to the uplift tracks a bit.
I don't buy the ebike = more erosion due to weight / power thing. It only really becomes a thing when you're pedalling up, and no-one at Bull track maintains the push-up, let alone the runs themselves.
I've only just got an ebike, spent 3 seasons riding this on a normal bike. I nearly didn't renew when it went from 50 to 80 as there seemed to be little progression without taking big risks.
Ebikes definitely let you get more runs in, and if they regularly maintained the trails, this could justify a premium. but double?
Most of the people defending the price on the facebook group are comparing it to other proper bike parks like Twisted which are maintained, staffed, open all year etc.
Seems bizarre to me. Not sure I'll even renew with my normal bike at £80
I wouldnt be giving them my custom.
I visit the b1ke bikeparks and do 2 hours worth of riding on my ebike.
Others on motorless bikes stay all day and do a similar amount of runs.
Sounds like the only fair way is pay per run, but obviously not enforceable.
What if you get towed up by an ebike? Split the difference? What a dumb decision.
Is this an insurance increase, like all other insurance that seems to be going up?
My hunch is simply that’s the extra insurance cost
Interesting, does the park also ban/enforce "sessioning" certain sections of trails? If there is a more laps / more wear and tear argument, you need to take into account non-emtb riders who repeatedly session the same bits of tracks without ever riding, say, the lower third of the trail as they think the ride back up is wasted effort. So the emtb "extra wear" argument only really works if everyone is doing full runs, and then yes - the emtb lot will do more.
Is there a van uplift additional fee? Best argument I can see for emtb extra charges is that they won't be paying into the uplift service and additional income that creates.
Based on the above are gravel bikes £50 as they weigh substantially less, have a smaller footprint and most riders will probably walk down the technical sections?
Surcharge for e-bikes seems reasonable to me.
Would my kenevo sl be mid priced due to less power/mass? What if you ride an ebike non-ebike equally split through the season?
Me and my ebike probably come in at just over 90kg fully kitted, so if it's mass that causes the problems maybe a £perkg costing is fairer. Or just put everyone coat up and charge a flat fee
Needs some sort of simple formula to include leg output, battery size, amount of batteries, motor watts, fitness, condition of knees, age, weight of bike, weight of rider, size of tyre knobs, rider shralpability, time spent at bikepark plus no doubt some other variables I've missed.
Personally, it's not the sort of park I'd go to on an ebike. The extra charge over a regular bike does seem excessive, which would also put me off. Makes my few £12 visits a year to windhill and £42 parking pass at fod seem a bargain.
"E-bikes cost more than normal bikes so you can afford to pay more."
Not necessarily they don't.
"plus they do more damage because of the weight/power"
Source?
never been there but maybe he's not overly bothered on E-bikes being there.
From the owners Facebook page where it's been brought up
We’ve always been about providing a progressive place to ride for the youth. As riding bikes can change lives and that’s our main objective and not many of them have e-bikes
Seems fair enough to me...
I'd imagine they did a rough estimate of the average speed of an average customer riding an ebike and the average speed of the average customer riding a normal bike, and concluded that an ebike will 'on average' go twice as far in the same timescale so charge twice as much.
Seems a bit expensive to me charging nearly double, but the concept that ebikes should pay more because they can go further than a non ebike in the same timescale doesn't seem out of line.
Maybe 50% more for an ebike would be OK?
“plus they do more damage because of the weight/power”
Source?
Basic high school physics, I appreciate that's well above your level of discourse but never mind.
Don’t be silly, a lot of people in this locale think they weight as much as a MX bike and put out as much power.
Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the point where they ceased to be as heavy as an early 00s steel huck bike.
"Basic high school physics, I appreciate that’s well above your level of discourse but never mind."
So no source then. An opinion. Right. Got it.
"An ebike having more weight and power than ordinary bike isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact"
A 23 kg ebike with an 80kg rider v a 17kg bike with an 90kg rider going downhill?
You will have to explain them 'facts'.
It’ll cover the cost of keeping a hi-ab on site in case one of you falls off and needs righting again
e-bike should be charged more because it is heavy and can damage the trail more.
A 23 kg ebike with an 80kg rider v a 17kg bike with an 90kg rider going downhill?
You will have to explain them ‘facts’.
E-bike will continue to spin longer innit! On a normal bike the 90kg rider might stop to take a break or simply go home or give up after a period of ride, but with E-bike the person can continue longer and hence put more wear and tear on the track, because now the person can ride longer, innit!
Same goes to EV, they are heavy and damage the road more. Charge them more!
@Aidy: yes, thanks. I am aware of my choices. Not really on here for advice. Just interested to hear everyone's opinion of the pricing.
@d42dom. That comment is pretty funny from Facebook. There is no progression. Begins with small tables, then the next thing is big gaps with consequences. The 'discussion' on Facebook gets interesting later when the owner calls one of his customers "gay" for asking why there is a price increase.
@funkydunc. I've never really understood the "you spent X, so you can be fleeced for y" argument.
@owenp. Yes people session sections, and no there is no uplift.
To put things into perspective, the trail maintainance I've seen so far in about four years of membership is:
1. Letting a few pre teens use the digger to make up their own runs
2. Occasionally burning / burying features other people have made without asking anyone.
3. Err
4. That's it.
Not really on here for advice. Just interested to hear everyone’s opinion of the pricing.
Feels like you didn't really want opinions unless they agreed with your own.
I've not been for a couple of years but the photos show the place has been almost completely rebuilt since I was there last. So there's definitely maintenance and progression.
You've tried on Facebook and got no luck so came here to try and get people behind you. It's their land. They've chosen to charge more and you don't like it. Just stop going.
I'm not far from the Bull Track, been a few times and met the owner a few times, nice bloke.
I disagree with the view there is no maintenance to the tracks as I have seen maintenance being carried out and a couple of years back they were changes to the tracks at the top.
Feels like you didn’t really want opinions unless they agreed with your own.
Seems like one of those threads.
So no source then. An opinion. Right. Got it.
I mean, it's Newton's first law of motion, but I suppose that was only Newton's opinions so doesn't hold much sway on the internet in 2024 🤣
A 23 kg ebike with an 80kg rider v a 17kg bike with an 90kg rider going downhill?
You will have to explain them ‘facts’.
Indeed, straw men are always lighter, the bulk density of straw is pretty low.
Come on, if you're not getting in more laps per week on an e-bike, then what's the point? If it's no better than your normal bike just pay the normal bike price and take the normal bike?
@Aidy. Not an impression I meant to give, genuinely interested to hear what other people think. The " well don't go then" contents don't really add anything of value do they?
@mark88. The only major building that's happened in the last four years were done in partnership with Whyte bikes who briefly linked up with the place. They built a line. Completely rebuilt is a stretch. The is no maintainance from the owners.
I don't use Facebook, just reporting what I've been shown via friends who do use it via WhatsApp.
They probably charge more simply because they can. And if people pay it, they'll just raise it again.
Seems bizarre to me. Not sure I’ll even renew with my normal bike at £80
Tell them that and go elsewhere.
It's not a tax. There is no obligation on your part to pay it.
What happens if you have more than one bike? Would you get turned away?
The ‘discussion’ on Facebook gets interesting later when the owner calls one of his customers “gay” for asking why there is a price increase.
Assuming this is as presented, that'd be enough to take my custom elsewhere rather than give them money.
What happens if you have more than one bike? Would you get turned away?
Presumably, if you've paid for a normal bike pass, you can turn up with as many different normal bikes as you choose, but you would get turned away if you turned up with an ebike. And if you've paid for an ebike you can bring as many different ebikes And normal bikes as you chose.
Ultimately the price is not directly linked to the costs of running the place, but is what the market will bear, which is pretty much standard practice, it's a private venture either pay up or go somewhere else.
The new Privateers are the same weight as my e-bike…
My ‘basic high school physics’ would lead me to think the most trail erosion that requires maintenance would be from actually good riders smashing berms. Speed is a more important determinant than mass (0.5*mv^2).
Hot take : Since e-bikes are exclusively owned by mincing fatties, they probably cause less erosion per run.
But also e-bikers probably just do more runs. Don’t overthink it.
But good riders are smoother unless they're shralping for the 'gram.
I realise there's a lot of whataboutery that can be applied to my comment but like for like (same rider) ebikes will cause more erosion. Does that mean a TMX with Super Monsters gets a free pass? In theory, no but in practice who is actually riding one of those regularly?
Speed is a more important determinant than mass (0.5*mv^2).
That's a measure of kinetic energy. Trail erosion/damage is better related to friction.
Not necessarily so. What’s an ebike, an extra 15kgs?
You gotta factor in the extra weight of the rider 😉
@Cougar. Apparently it's got worse on Facebook. After the gay comments, the owner has gone for the "DM abuse" route of public relations.
Disposable income tax.
Not an impression I meant to give, genuinely interested to hear what other people think. The ” well don’t go then” contents don’t really add anything of value do they?
Well. It was what I thought. I didn't see a problem with them charging what they wanted based on bicycle type, and that people could ride elsewhere if they didn't want to pay.
But obviously that's not an opinion that you're genuinely interested in hearing.
Weight just isn't that big of a deal, it'll make a little difference but be absolutely lost in the rounding compared with people doing more runs. An ebike visitor could easily end up being the equivalent of 2 council bike visitors in those terms. Same for speed, ebikes will probably be a bit faster on average just because they can recover speed with less effort, that could be a bigger effec than weight but again it'll never match up to the extra runs, that's a multiplier not an adder.
It's all a bit of a muchness though, the only thing that matters as a punter is if it's worth it to you, do you ride there enough, do you get enough out of it. It's no different to the argument "but this is really expensive to arrange", that can explain why a price is what it is but it doesn't make the cost/benefit any different for me.
I think a pretty good thought experiment is, would you pay the lower rate and only ride an analogue bike there? Or does that not seem worth the saving? Just turn it around. I suspect not many ebike owners would decide to leave the ebike at home in order to save a few quid. If it's worth spending thousands of pounds extra for an ebike, probably it's worth spending tens of pounds extra to ride it, in a convenient custom built location someone's providing?
(it'd be really nice to see places that have a higher ebike charge have some sort of disability discount though)
Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, just ride somewhere else if you don't want to pay?
“An ebike having more weight and power than ordinary bike isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact”
A 23 kg ebike with an 80kg rider v a 17kg bike with an 90kg rider going downhill?
You will have to explain them ‘facts’.
well I said bike not bike plus rider
However if the people are on average the same weight the ebike plus rider will be heavier.
I have no useful experience of riding an ebike. But I did read on here that the thing to do is ride downhill in maximum boost. That’s for max acceleration out of the corners.
Finally I offer an opinion. But please tell me if you think I’m wrong
If I add up the weight of everyone I’ve seen on an ebike and divide by the number of people I’ve seen on an ebike then I get a far larger number than if I do the same for people on acoustic bikes
All of this cod-Physics is neither here nor there. You're all trying to explain something based on what's in the head of someone whose idea of an insult is "you're gay," I highly doubt that they had a slide rule out when coming up with this year's pricing.
The land owner is charging a premium because they can. Either they think people will pay it, or they think that e-bike riders are antisocial throbbers and don't want their custom so they've banged up the price to discourage them.
@Cougar. Apparently it’s got worse on Facebook. After the gay comments, the owner has gone for the “DM abuse” route of public relations.
Good grief.
After creating Southampton Bike Park (SBP) and in the process of creating Southern4X at the Freespace track in Eastleigh this is an interesting thread for me. for SBP I went for a free to ride set up as it is small and fully maintained by unpaid volunteers and what little cost we incur, we can cover with t-shirt and hoody sales.
For thee 4Cross track we plan to have free ride on your own. There will be a membership fee for the club, probably starting next year as people can get this year free if they help dig. the membership will get you access to training days when we have the start gates running as start gates are something that are not normally available plus various other benefits.
If we were to differentiate between e-bikes and none-bikes at either place I would struggle to justify the difference. The most damage to SBP is done by beginners or bad riders who case the jumps and ruin the lips or ride over the edge of the berms. As a fat person I weigh with limited skills more than a light person on an e-bike even before I get on a bike and so probably would be classed as a high damage unit.
I suspect the charging strategy is based on the fact e-bikes are easily recognisable as a category so can be differentiated against. If you try to charge differently based on skill level then you have to do a skills assessment for every rider each time.
My ‘basic high school physics’ would lead me to think the most trail erosion that requires maintenance would be from actually good riders smashing berms. Speed is a more important determinant than mass (0.5*mv^2).
Slower riders drag their brakes causing braking bumps, are more likely to lock up the back wheel and cause more erosion.
I would say it's more to do with the fact that ebikes are many, many pounds to buy, so it's quite clear the owners can afford £150 extra to enjoy riding it on trails someone else has built.
After the gay comments, the owner has gone for the “DM abuse” route of public relations.
people (including troll account) have tried to start a public pile-on on their Facebook page and you have posted here (And presumably elsewhere?). Doesn't excuse the wording but I don't blame him for feeling attacked.
The bike park is a commercial venture, either ride there and pay or go else where.
What's your problem with that?
What’s your problem with that?
Think the op wants some drama. Stop feeding him.
Twice the fun, twice the price, no?
@mark88. I only posted here because I was interested in hearing mountain bikers' opinions on the pricing. This is about the only 'social media' I haven't deleted. I got tired of all the weird arguments...
@Bruce I don't have a problem per se, just think the price difference is a bit much. If they planned on 20% premium, like BPW pedal passes it would make more sense.
@alpin. I was after opinions, not drama. Was hoping for some more grown up debate than my friends are seeing on Facebook, but never mind.
As many many people have pointed out, I can ride elsewhere. Based on the zero maintainance, I probably will, even at the lower price for my normal bike.
Think E-bike day ticket at the Bull track are £12 that's competitive and in line with many other sites. I do hear of insurance expense because approximately 50% of e-bikes are chipped are are classed as mopeds and not MTB? Not sure if that's a factor in this case but
If I take my e-bike to a push up it’s 100% so I can get more runs in before I’m worn out. Hence I’d accept paying more. Not sure about double, I’d just look at the price and decide whether I was happy to pay or not.
@Worldclassaccident. Thanks for the insight from the parks perspective, interesting.
How does liability insurance work for a free trip ride place then? Or is it not relevant?
How often would you say you dig/maintain the trails?
@bmxrad. If that 20% premium for day tickets was replicated in the membership price, it would be £100 not £150.
I mean, it’s Newton’s first law of motion, but I suppose that was only Newton’s opinions so doesn’t hold much sway on the internet in 2024
He's never been the same since he landed on his head when he fell out of that apple tree.
It says normal day ticket is £8 e bike day ticket is £12 that's a 50% Premium not 20% but I take your point. That said many similar sites are £12.5 for normal bikes so I don't see the day ticket as being excessive?
I mean, it’s Newton’s first law of motion, but I suppose that was only Newton’s opinions so doesn’t hold much sway on the internet in 2024
It's all the ad work he's been doing lately.
Oh, it's been ages since I bought a day ticket, thought it was £10.
That should make a membership £120.
It might not seem like a big difference, but if it was £120 AND they did trail repair I'd probably swallow the premium.
They must do some trail repair surely? Otherwise it'd be absolutely sodded by now. You might not see any improvements, but just maintaining the status quo will take a degree of effort.
I Am Not A Trail Builder.