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I have an extension on my house which was built by a previous occupant.
I would like a copy of the original approved planning permission and decision document from the council.
They don't have it online as it's an old one -1993. So they said to me it would cost me £25 to see if they actually still have it on file. I wasn't happy about this but there wasn't anything I could do so I paid it.
They had come back to me saying they have found it. The bloke speaking to me on the phone actually had it in his hand.
He said he would calculate a price to scan and email it to me.
£60!!!! If I only want the decision document it is £25, so for him to feed an extra 6 sheets into the scanner it will cost me £35 extra.
I was livid, so I challenged him on the price. He tried to fob me off and kept repeating "that's just what we charge".
So I asked for the documentation which determines pricing in the council for such documents. He said he would email me the price list. I said no, I don't want a price list, I want the higher level document which sets out the original decision on pricing structures.
This may take some time......
It wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't just charged me only £10 for the buiinf control document sign off certificate, but that's a different department.
So I asked for the documentation which determines pricing in the council for such documents. He said he would email me the price list. I said no, I don't want a price list, I want the higher level document which sets out the original decision on pricing structures.
I think that one costs £100
Stuff costs money, it's not a charity though these prices might seem steep it also all goes to running the whole show.
I reckon they should authorise their employees to haggle about prices for services on an ad-hoc basis with anyone who rings up. Price lists, pah!
It's almost as if Council's have had there budgets massively slashed in order to fund tax cuts for the very wealthy isn't it.
Personally I would have just doubled the cost every time you argued 🙂
I had the same when we bought our house... Solicitors of our purchasing partner demanded the documents proving who owned the kerb stones and street lighting.. This cost me £50 for a single page photocopy. I was somewhat unimpressed.
Stuff costs money, it's not a charity though these prices might seem steep it also all goes to running the whole show
Yep, LA need to act more business like and make money / profit on thier services where possible. Do you ask McD's for there pricing structure that led to the price of your Big Mac?
You've probably cost him the profit amount in lost time anyway, just be grateful and pay it.
This cost me £50 for a single page photocopy.
Or rather a document that was an official document that was a copy of an original that was lodged, stored and processed correctly then retrieved and presented to you on demand.
He said he would email me the price list. I said no, I don't want a price list, I want the higher level document which sets out the original decision on pricing structures.
Do you do the same for everything you buy? Sounds time consuming.
I just look at the product, and the price, and then decide if I want it or not.
Doesn't seem unreasonable
I work in what's left of UK manufacturing and we used to spend soooooo much time on little odds'n'sods pages from an old manual here a scan of a pencil drawing there friendly tech support phone calls etc. Nowt in isolation but it all adds up
"Or rather a document that was an official document that was a copy of an original that was lodged, stored and processed correctly"
This would have incurred a fee when lodged
"then retrieved and presented to you on demand."
This is what cost £50.
As a private individual, owner of the property and payee of council tax in the said borough, I that's taking the pee somewhat.
£25 to go and find some 20 year old scrap of paper which could be anywhere seems perfectly reasonable to me.
"We've found it and you can't have it unless you give us another £60" is bloody outrageous. I'd be turning up on their doorstep and asking to see it.
I want the higher level document which sets out the original decision on pricing structures.
Requests like this is why councils end up as expensive bureaucratic dung-heaps that need to charge people for administration costs in the first place.
I'd be mightily pissed off too though if I'd been charged that much.
Councils often seem to forget we PAY council tax!!!
Wanted to drop a small bag of rubble off at the tip. That will be £8 please. What, so I can dump as much green waste, wood, metal, non recyclable rubbish as I want but I have to pay for a small bag of rubble.
woody74 - Member
Councils often seem to forget we PAY council tax!!!
People seem to forget that they don't pay enough tax to fund the level of service they expect. If the taxes pay for the services that 70-80% of the people use then the rest can be made up with fee's
Do a freedom of information (FOI) request to your Council on planning information hold on your house?
https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request/how-to-make-an-foi-request
But I'm happy for those making an application to have to pay for it..
Councils often seem to forget we PAY council tax!!!
It only goes so far.
One of the biggest costs is waste disposal. Oh!
We have had this with work- a few years ago you would phone up the relevant officer at the council and have a chat. Now you have to pay them and they will e-mail the answer. I can see this with companies but with individuals, provided you've paid your council tax, it takes the piss a bit.
Of course it's not the council's fault they've had to end up doing this to balance budgets, it's the austerity and neo-liberal mad government we've had to put up with for the last 5 years.
Something's changed. I'm moving house for 3rd time in 18 months. Both times previous they've been happy to put in a parking suspension for the removal van FOC.This time they want £60.
Almost certainly because we're skint and they can't afford to give away non-essentials for free anymore.
Bear in mind Gideon slowed up the rate of cuts in the last parliament and questions are being asked about how he's going to reach the new target he's set himself this parliament.
We've had the wool pulled over our eyes about how skint we are (probably because we'd go mental if we really knew)- the next few years are going to be much tougher than the last 5 in terms of cuts...
We've had debt thrown at us since the early 90s to cover up our slowing economic growth - and the chickens from that policy (Tory and Labour FWIW) are now coming home to roost...
I'll attempt not to answer the question. Did you try asking if you could just view the document rather than have a copy of it? I've viewed 20 year old planning documents (on microfiche) at the local library for free. Also more recent ones which aren't filed online but were available to view on paper - I simply took photos of the ones I was interested in.
Your council might still charge for that, but it's got to be worth a try.
Isn't this the latest fashion amongst local authorities?
If you watch carefully, you may note the slightest of smirks appear on the face of the person you're dealing with, as that member of staff tells you how it is. Esp as the council are trying to save money for essential services.
The staff aren't getting the wage rises they feel entitled to, so they're giving it to joe public.
Perhaps the docs you want should/might be within the original sale dossier you might have received from the solicitor acting on your behalf at the time?
Surely, they should be charging you to scan it and put it online. Then they can destroy the original physical document and not have to pay to store it ?
I don't mind paying the fee if it was calculated to be a reasonable charge based on work involved etc. I work as a civil servant and I know someone somewhere will have made a decision and there should be documentation somewhere. We normally give this info out for free. They shouldn't be making a profit from it.
FOI Request / I had thought of that - they aren't allowed to charge more than £10 for that I seem to remember.
They shouldn't be making a profit from it.
Anything that they take above costs will end up subsidising other services. I'm sure there is no profit.
[i] I'm sure there is no profit. [/i]
Not profit, budget surplus, which was quietly deposited off shore, such as the accounts in Iceland, in which numerous uk local authorities had hidden vast sums of money. At the height of the crash I seem to recall news of my then LA having almost 50 million in off shore banks. Yet my CT went up each year.
LAs are very dirty.
25% cuts to council funding, I imagine that this sort of thing will only get worse
ZMs Told you lot the lesser the councils the better we are.
You will not die you know without those ZMs.
🙄
I had some queries about the way my bathroom was constructed when I lived in Denmark. As it was in an apartment building it had required permission. It was done by the previous owner but one, some time in the 90's. I just logged on to the local council website and downloaded the planning application and all the reports on the work done. Took no money and about 5 minutes. Britain is very backwards in some respects 🙁
You won't get it under FOI - information otherwise accessible - as they already have a procedure to release this info - I can't remember the exemption number in the English Act.
The updated Re-use of Public Sector Information Regs come into force 18 July which pretty much mandate low cost/minimal charging. Try making the request on 19 July under that and report back to me please !
It is very much down to each Cooncils interpretation of the legislation. They no doubt found a lawyer they could pay to say that their approach is compliant.
Well if the councils don't have enough money then put the bloody council tax up. Don't just cut services and make us pay for everything else. However you do have to question how the council spend money. In Somerset in the last month the council has resurfaced two roads that had perfectly good tarmac on them. One of them I ride to work over and the other is outside my parent house. Both took days and days to do so not some small job with full road closures and tons of workmen. Must have cost a fortune and for what I can see, no reason.
My parents house is opposite a dead end road that has about 5 on it. One poor guy had to sit at the end of road for 4 straight days to stop anyone trying to drive onto the main road whilst they were resurfacing it. Even though they had full barriers closing off the road and everyone knew the road was closed. Absolute waste of time and I don't think he had to do anything for 4 full days. Worst of all he was working for a private company so not only was my council tax paying for him but also paying profit to a private company!!!
Argh!!!!
And this is the same council that say they don't have enough money for essential services!!! Rant, rant
I'm against the flow here. The LA is my servant and shouldn't be charging anything more than costs for this. 10p a sheet is the going rate in a newsagent. So much money is wasted by LA's. I get a newsletter every month telling me nothing except how great they are. I asked for it not to be sent but that isn't an option.
My wife was made redundant from Hampshire County Council because they've had a 40% decrease in budgets and a 25% increase in services required (over approx 4 years) so staff had to go.
Very few of us want to pay more tax so when we ask council staff to divert from the jobs they are meant to be doing, many people left in council jobs are now covering multiple roles, it's not surprising that they have to charge the time/effort required.
Maybe the council should make these 'admin' services completely free by shutting down more service like schools, care homes and the like?
Did you really need this doc or was it something you wanted?
I take it you've not bought bike parts lately, some prices are eyewatering but we pay them.
I had similar recently - my LA wanted £55 to tell me if there are any local restrictions on colour of double glazing on our development.
No paperwork, no scanning, just a yes or no.
Meanwhile Stockport buy Stockport County FC's ground to stop them losing it, after previously lending them cash so the club could stay afloat. I do wonder what the interest rate was. At the same time cuts have been made to social services and families with severely disabled children are past the breaking point. Hello? Priorities?
They'll also pay contractors to resurface/skim over pavements weeks before the elections, in the nicer parts of the borough,(not needed thanks). Oh, and whilst we are on an mtb forum, they widened, flattened and covered some nice bridleways in road planings, making them worst for all users concerned and generated more user conflict with public money.
The latter I can just about stomach, the former boils my piss!
I think you could argue that LAs are getting paid twice for some of this work. What they do is driven by legislation, and they are funded by the government and rates/council tax etc to do these things. They could just not bother doing planning inspections to save money ??? No they can't as some Planning Act or other says they have to. To then leverage income from services they are already paid to provide.... something is wrong there !
And we are nearly 3 pages in and nobody has cited 1st world problems. Slackers.
I have no idea if the amount charged is fair. But my hunch would be that the office probably doesn't charge enough to cover its costs.
But if they do this stuff for free it means that my council tax is subsidizing your house move
What they do is driven by legislation, and they are funded by the government and rates/council tax etc to do these things.
This is incorrect, much of which is driven by legislation is not actually funded. Do you really think that when, for example, FOI legislation was introduced council's were given any more money to deal with it?
Personal search companies access council records free of charge and then charge people for the information!
Im going to ask my relatives to ask for info from two decades ago and expect it for free. Otherwise I'll clog up their system.
I imagine the prices are because of disputes etc etc and they are sick of wasted staff time. This way it puts off all but the determined who pay. After all I bet you'll be spending thousands on whatever you've got planned so whats £60 in the grandscheme of your investment?
No that's not quite right ebygomm - what you are talking about is ring-fenced funding e.g when they are given money allocated to a specific vote winning political purpose. The rest is just a bid sloosh of money. If it all had to be ring-fenced into amounts for a specific function there would be a whole new central government dept whose job was to do Cooncil budgets for them.
They don't do anything any more that they don't have to - for example SBC don't collect garden waste anymore. There flyer about it was very clear "there is no law that compels us to do this, so take yer own leaves to the tip" (I'm paraphrasing).
But the idea that council's are being paid twice i.e. being funded to meet legislation centrally/via council tax and charging in addition would only be true if they were allocated specific pots of money to meet specific bits of legislation.
As it is, new legislation is introduced and the pot of money gets ever smaller...
Somethings changed
Yep...
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The annoying thing is that newer applications are all online, so people can see those for free. So I am effectively subsidising other people being able to see their records for nowt
I wonder if they'll scan mine in now they've found it.....
When I wanted to know if I would require planning permission for a pumptrack project on parish council land I was charged £70 to find out by the county council. The planning clinic they use to run for just that kind of yes/no information had been shut due to cost pressures. Then I had to find out what the planning cost would be etc etc.........it is what it is.
Personally I would have just doubled the cost every time you argued
Me too. OP is going to get a shock when he has to get a solicitor to scan and post him something or heaven forbid write a letter for him, or deal with the private sector at all.
Having worked for a local authority I think the mandatory punishment for moaning about them should be 6 months working for them to experience the reality of trying to provide services with almost no funding.
Sure, but the private sector don't get given/collect a huge bucket of money every year to provide their services. The payment reflects the cost to them of providing the service (or more realistically what they think the market will tolerate).
[i]Sure, but the private sector don't get given/collect a huge bucket of money every year to provide their services.[/i]
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/07/corporate-welfare-a-93bn-handshake
The annoying thing is that newer applications are all online, so people can see those for free. So I am effectively subsidising other people being able to see their records for nowt
how much demand is there for planning documents for every single planning application etc for over two decades ago? Where do you draw the line for putting them online? How often do people want to see really old planning documents unless its some sort of dispute with a neighbour etc?
I'm firmly with the council on this. They are there to provide a service within reason.
Well there's a lot of people who would be paying more than they need to because they are too scared to challenge like I did!
Why?
I was emailed the detailed pricing structure of documents from planning and where they are derived from. I checked what I wanted off the list and checked my initial invoice I paid and I realised I had already paid for the decision document. Additionally the extra money they wanted to charge for plans wasn't meant to be for the plans submitted with the planning application. Result is that I've paid £25 instead of £60 just because I challenged it and checked I was being charged fairly and accurately.
Sure, but the private sector don't get given/collect a huge bucket of money every year to provide their services. The payment reflects the cost to them of providing the service (or more realistically what they think the market will tolerate).
The public sectur organisation I work for has been charged £800 for a days fume cupboard servicing and £400 for a days autoclave servicing. If only we could offer efficiency like that
Oh and we don't pay tax to do the paper work for some one to extend their house
They don't do anything any more that they don't have to - for example SBC don't collect garden waste anymore. There flyer about it was very clear "there is no law that compels us to do this, so take yer own leaves to the tip" (I'm paraphrasing).
There have been items on TV showing the money that can be made by councils selling compost made from garden waste collected from residents.
Wiltshire CC put up options for residents regarding garden waste collection; charge £40/year to collect regularly all through the year, stop collecting through the winter and keep it free the rest of the year, and I think a third option was to stop collecting completely.
The biggest response was to go for the second option; the council said no, we're going to charge you regardless.
Good to see democracy isn't dead. 🙄
Its worth remembering that the cost includes the storage of the original material, person to be there to take your call, search, find, photo copy post. Seems reasonable to me. I for one am in favour of paying for the services you use, garden waste, house extension documents etc. I dont use them and dont expect to have to pay unless I use them. Bills of course should be accurate