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Help! It looks like the slippery horsey path is getting evermore slippery – our daughter currently part-loans a horse (two days a week) under an agreement drawn up by the owner. However, it is looking likely that she is going to take it on as a full loan (six days, with one day allowing access for the owner's daughter to ride). As this means the responsibility is laying much more with us, we'd like to ensure we have an agreement that benefits us (for example, we want it to be watertight and clear that we aren't responsible for vets fees unless it is because of our own negligence etc). Our daughter is a member of the British Horse Society so we have their insurance and access to advice there, but I wanted to cast the net further and find out if there is anywhere else I should be looking, and other advice I can get.
Thank you!
Nagging doubts?
This might be a sticking problem if you've got the horse 6 out of 7 days - you'd expect to share VET fees on a similar basis ? Money pits are horses.
What happens if the horse does something stupid whilst on it's own on a 'loan day' ? I say this as a colleagues horse is an idiot - managed to cut his hoof open whilst in the field on his own - cost thousands to get him sorted.
'This might be a sticking problem if you’ve got the horse 6 out of 7 days – you’d expect to share VET fees on a similar basis ? '
But we aren't now on a 2/7 basis – I am very green at all this, but I don't see why it should change because we are looking after poor little rich kid's horse because she can't be bothered with it anymore, just a year after spending a very significant amount of money on it.
You probably need a legal agreement drawing up, as effectively at 6/7th you've got most use, and if you've not got something watertight, you could be opening yourself up to some bills as the majority user. Do you go up and do the feeding/mucking out ?
Definitely take some advice. The only thing I know is horses are literal money pits. Be careful.
Be careful this could turn out to be a right mare.
But we aren’t now on a 2/7 basis – I am very green at all this, but I don’t see why it should change because we are looking after poor little rich kid’s horse because she can’t be bothered with it anymore, just a year after spending a very significant amount of money on it.
im not sure if that’s the attitude of the partners in an agreement that I’d want to enter into it!
Presumably there is a horsetrackworld where you would get some advice on what is both normal and what people try to sneak in to agreements! Does the horse society provide a standard template? My priority would be about notice periods because not-quite-so-rich kids are also not without their risks of changing interests and I dare say rich people aren’t afraid to cut their losses and foot the horse if Tabitha hasn’t done as she was told or it’s costing them too much!
what happens if the horse is sick/unrideable for weeks - you are still paying for stabling, mucking it out etc?
The horse is kept at the owners yard? aka the owner who has it one day per week for their daughter to ride?
Or you have it at your yard and they come to your yard for them to ride?
As fossy says. Starting point is you pay 6/7th of care feeds (livery - if at a livery yard), vet, farrier, feed, insurance,etc - lets call it 'operating cost')
Then a clause excluding items such as period when in their care, or if horse injures itself outwith your care (livery yard/yard issues when your not in attendance ot have control over)
Hmm...is it the current owner offering this arrangement? Seems like you would bear the brunt of the running cost and they would get a cheap recreational horse to cane the shite out of at the weekends. Is there a possibility that they know there are some big vet bills incoming and want to spread the load?
Cynical, I know, and a lot depends on your relationship with this owner. But worth playing out the various scenarios - injury etc - in your mind.
Horses for courses?
You probably need a legal agreement drawing up, as effectively at 6/7th you’ve got most use, and if you’ve not got something watertight, you could be opening yourself up to some bills as the majority user.
Absolutely – that's why I am asking for advice here.
Do you go up and do the feeding/mucking out ?
Yep - at the moment it is twice a week but we'd be doing it more (paying for some days on full livery)
The horse is kept at the owners yard? aka the owner who has it one day per week for their daughter to ride?
Or you have it at your yard and they come to your yard for them to ride?
This is the thing - the owners want it to stay at the current yard and have the access so it isn't a 'traditional' full loan
what happens if the horse is sick/unrideable for weeks – you are still paying for stabling, mucking it out etc?
Currently she is unrideable (well she's just started again) but for the last eight weeks we've still been paying in full and still going to the yard to muck out etc.
There's a loan agreement template on here - sure my wife used the same one with a few mods...
https://www.bhs.org.uk/horse-care-and-welfare/ownership-loaning/loaning-a-horse/
...the horse will be your's soon though! And you know it! 😬
My advice would be to find another horse/pony loan that fits in with your needs. Unless you have asked for more use of the horse this feels like the owner is dumping the dirty work onto you.
If the horse is at the owners nominated livery yard - for the owners benefit - but you are the majority user, id be making sure the owner pays a higher share of livery stabling costs than 1/7th, as they are stipulating where you keep the horse at their behest.
Sounds like you have an agreement for your current 2/7 loan. Is that template useful in its current form? And up the prorata times with beefed up exclusions?
However given youll have a horse, which is coming back into work, dont have exclusivity and restricted to the owners yard, but youll likely pay majority cost. Playing devils advocate, wouldnt it be better going for a different horse on 100% loan?
Who is currently paying for...
• feed
• tack
• vaccinations
• shoeing
• bedding
• haylage/hay
• transport (who owns the lorry/trailer)
• insurance
...if you want the horse 6 out of 7 days you will have to contribute. And they will get ill - my wife's horse insurance renewal just came in the post - I had a quick look then put it down and shut it out of my mind!! 🙂
Why is it out of action now - is that due to an ongoing condition?
My advice would be to find another horse/pony loan that fits in with your needs. Unless you have asked for more use of the horse this feels like the owner is dumping the dirty work onto you.
But my daughter loves this horse and it is a very good horse. TBF, the owner hasn't dumped anything on us – in fact we only found out she was considering a full loan when someone at the yard told us (I have no idea why she didn't ask us but that's another story).
There are other horses, and it would do your daughter good not to get too attached to them. The next one will be the best thing ever! And with costs escalating there are more and more people wanting help to share the costs by loaning them out.
They come, they go, sometimes you have to have them put down.
My daughter has just sold hers - it was a great pony, but not for the direction she wanted it to go.
See what the owner wants - if they are loaded they may not be bothered about help with day to day fees. And just want to keep the horse ticking over for their daughter.
Why is it out of action now – is that due to an ongoing condition?
The owner didn't want to shoe her (despite being advised to) and she got sore feet. She's now shod and okay.
I did this with a couple of horses for a couple of years. Nothing was written down. They owner paid vets' bills and the rent on the field and let us know when they wanted to use the horses which they generally didn't. We organised (free) forage, paid the blacksmith, carried the water when the stream went dry, provided all our own tack (mainly because theirs was Norton shit). We had civil responsibility insurance and a life accidents policy.
It all went fine till Covid when as non owners we weren't allowed to go and look after them. Left to their own devices they went wild, repeatedly escaping - the owner got pissed off and gave them away with first offer to us, we declined because they were getting near to the end of their working lives.
Madame went out and bought a delight full young Apaloosa. We pay for stabling and looking after with a club but get a discount depending on the amount he gets ridden by other club riders. I rent a horse from the club when I feel like riding. With the club it's almost as easy as MTB: blow up the tyres (groom and saddle), ride, hose down, put in box or out to pasture. Horses love being in a herd so he's happier than just the two together.
Thanks to stabling with the club it's much less responsibilty/hassle than a dog.
Just be careful, owner considering 'loans' - might be sick of the cost, especially when it's been 'out of action' for 8 weeks. You know your daughter will pull on your heart, and it's a lot of work taking on looking after a horse 5 days or more. It's a bit like 'pets', the kids soon get bored doing the cleaning/feeding.
Mate was hijacked by his wife and older kids into a dog. Guess who is doing all the walks, twice a day. It's buggered up his cycling time. So much so, he's strava'ing dog walks !
Our daughter is a member of the British Horse Society so we have their insurance and access to advice there, but I wanted to cast the net further
A mountain bike website is clearly the right place to come after the BHS!
It’s a bit like ‘pets’, the kids soon get bored doing the cleaning/feeding.
No, she's fine with it - on top of the part loan she currently has, she rides twice a week at a local stable and volunteers every Saturday (7.30am–4pm – just doing all the mucking out etc) and has been doing so for years. She also starts her DoE tonight, volunteering with their disabled riders group.
The BHS template and other net templates out there dont quite match what you need in a loan agreement.
Its 'owner' biased assuming theyre the majority user by the looks of it.
Tried posting on like the Horse and Hound forum or other horse magazines forums to see if anyones enacted a loan contract which aligns with what your after? There must be out there for a good starting point.
Nip this in the bud right now!
My sister and I started riding at 6 when we saw a string of ponies going out on a hack. I stopped at 13 or so, but 50 years later my sister is still at it, with a couple of old nags she can't bear to let go, a couple of competition horses and half a dozen or so New Forest ponies saved from the french meat trade.
Her husband enjoys his toys too - a few nice motor bikes and a Porsche. A few years back, he confided in me,
" if it wasn't for your sister's horses, I'd have a couple of Ferraris by now..."
Don't let you daughter become too attached, Find another one!
Have you tried Lloyds?
” if it wasn’t for your sister’s horses, I’d have a couple of Ferraris by now…”
I have said similar to my wife - I have always wanted a Lotus Elise and could have got one years ago if it wasn't for horses. Ahh well.
She also starts her DoE tonight, volunteering with their disabled riders group.
Which means your daughter is in the high pressure exam years. Unless wants a career in horses will she be able to commit to six days a week plus volunteering at the stables?
And if the owners daughter has lost interest it won't be long before the horse is for sale.
” if it wasn’t for your sister’s horses, I’d have a couple of Ferraris by now…”
We're not rich by any means and it does stop us going on nice holidays. It keeps the wife out of the house a lot though - so it's not all bad! 🙂
Currently she is unrideable (well she’s just started again) but for the last eight weeks we’ve still been paying in full and still going to the yard to muck out etc.
Welcome to horse ownership - my OH's horse a few years ago was unrideable for a year or two AKA paying £150 a week to be able to point to a horse in a field and say, "that's mine".
Isn’t there a ‘ride to work ‘ scheme available? Could make quite a saving! we had a similar but 1morning scheme with middle daughter didn’t last long,got a bit bored trotting around the small paddock,not sure about the horse though (kids on loan sounds a better option)
"The owner didn’t want to shoe her (despite being advised to) and she got sore feet. "
Does this not raise any flags with you about their likely future attitude to necessary financial outlay on the beast?
Try it, you might like galloping along on a horse, Johndoh. Given the choice between a Lotus Elise track day and a horse along my local trails I'll take the horse. I've even been doing dressage and jumping lessons with the club recently.
Edit: In terms of buzz galloping some arabs flat out over les Causses du Tarn ranks with a group N Samba on semi-slicks over Epynt on the Welsh in the wet.
“The owner didn’t want to shoe her (despite being advised to) and she got sore feet. ”
Does this not raise any flags with you about their likely future attitude to necessary financial outlay on the beast?
Could just be the owner prescribed to the barefoot method of horse ownership. Sore feet can be a symptom of this.
Which means your daughter is in the high pressure exam years. Unless wants a career in horses will she be able to commit to six days a week plus volunteering at the stables?
She would be giving up the volunteering (and some lessons) and the horse would be on full livery some days so her overall commitment should be around the same as she has now.
Does this not raise any flags with you about their likely future attitude to necessary financial outlay on the beast?
Yes and no – they are basically bloody clueless - as soon as my daughter started the part-loan she was telling them what they were doing wrong. They just have too much money and didn't/don't have much of a clue. I don't think they have made decisions on financial grounds - just clueless.
Try it, you might like galloping along on a horse
I've always like the idea of doing this, I've always been put off though buy the prospect of learning to do it, and the crippling costs of horse ownership.
We never shod the horses we borrowed because the growth rate equalled our riding. However Madame's horse gets ridden a lot and shod every six weeks or less if she's competing. I did nearly all the trimming and filing when unshod just calling the blacksmith when in doubt.
As for affecting studies, Madame looked after a horse 100% through her teens and got a doctorate. She didn't waste much time on boys, discos, pubs etc. though.
Edit: 8 weeks off suggests domething like white-line disease rather than worn down - les fourmilières in French - a fungal infection.
As others have said, be careful, you could easily be taken for a ride.
As for affecting studies, Madame looked after a horse 100% through her teens and got a doctorate.
...my daughter quit her A-levels during covid - went and got herself an apprenticeship with an olympic medal winning event rider, and is still working there 4 years later! It's an obsession - she just loves it, even the 2am starts and midnight finishes when then are competing during the eventing season!
I wasn't enamoured with this decision, but it's her life, not mine.
She lives-in with the other grooms and has grown so much as a person over the last 4 years. Proper functioning adult she is now.
It sounds like not letting studies get in the way of a vocation. Good luck to her. The young woman Madame did an endurance event with last week quit accounting to milk cows and ride horses. Junior did Science Po and the Humbolt but DJs and teaches people to ski.
Her husband enjoys his toys too – a few nice motor bikes and a Porsche. A few years back, he confided in me,
” if it wasn’t for your sister’s horses, I’d have a couple of Ferraris by now…”
Nah, the reason he got the bikes and porche was because she got the horses! If there were no horses a massively expensive entirely one sided purchase was no more likely!
Would you have more control and clarity if you bought the horse, and let them borrow it on a 1/7 basis?
Can you go back with a canter offer?
If you’ve paid 6/7ths of fees etc for a period of time and they decide to sell the horse, do you get a share of the proceeds?
If you’ve paid 6/7ths of fees etc for a period of time and they decide to sell the horse, do you get a share of the proceeds?
If it's a rental agreement, then I'd guess not. Rental is different than shared ownership and/or shared responsibility for heath care etc..
It might be worth thinking about how contracts would work with a hire car, or a mortgage on a house with shared ownwership...it really depends on the specifics of the contract.
I'd certainly want a stable understanding before commiting to anything, but hay, maybe I'm being a bit pessemistic.
Yes and no – they are basically bloody clueless – as soon as my daughter started the part-loan she was telling them what they were doing wrong. They just have too much money and didn’t/don’t have much of a clue. I don’t think they have made decisions on financial grounds – just clueless.
Yeah, sounds about right. Rich kid stamps their feet, demands a pony, then realises that there’s more to having a living, breathing creature than sitting on its back and trotting around the paddock. Seems like, if all the paperwork can be made watertight, your daughter’s onto a good thing, has as much access to the horse as she wants, while the owners cover the stabling and the mundane but important stuff.
Never been interested in horses, I’ve hurt myself enough falling sideways on a bloody singlespeed at walking speed, and broken my collarbone at not much faster, falling from the back of a horse isn’t something I ever want to experience!
Nah, the reason he got the bikes and porche was because she got the horses! If there were no horses a massively expensive entirely one sided purchase was no more likely!
Yep, which is why I've an enduro eBike, all-round FS, bikepacking HT , gravel and a road bike - plus never bothered getting rid of my old gravel bike and my 26" Ti HT 🙂
The thing with a horse is it costs you every single day, even if you never ride it - and then add in stuff like needing a big enough motor to tow the trailer or an extra vehicle (truck/lorry). It's even more endless than maintaining 5 bikes.
Air bags similar to the ones used by motorcyclists, Countzero. 24e the fall for the CO2 bottle and so far she's just bounced whereas previously it was a trip to A&E. I wear one but haven't fallen off since adopting, I've got close to forgetting to unclip a couple of times though.
Message me and I'll see what my wife had as an agreement. She did this for years.
BHS template probably best though.
Now owns two of her own though so be warned loaning is a gateway drug.
24e the fall for the CO2 bottle and so far she’s just bounced whereas previously it was a trip to A&E.
The rate they fall off at my daughters yard they'd need a tanker of CO2! 🤣
Dangerous game this eventing lark - horses in peak fitness and big fences.