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Blimey, it's like being back at school in the 80s. Her new song shows a shocking lack of awareness and irony for someone who professes to be about inclusion. Or maybe it's arrogance?
You mean this one?
Nsfw
The word in question doesn't have quite the same meaning and nastiness in the States as it has over here so I doubt she's using it with any real intended malice but yeah, it's not a great move from someone who's always come across as pretty sound and you'd have thought someone on her team would have picked up on it even if she wasn't aware.
or deliberate to generate a bit of controversy. It's difficult to know now 🙁
edit: I also deliberately didn't link to the vid in case that's what was intended. Getting far too cynical as I get older
Unfortunate but given the zero likelihood of me choosing to listen to it, I'm not sure my opinion matters.
Seems to be about the word spaz.
A word we all used as kids in the 80s as a generic insult, like the OP suggests. We never thought about it's origins or wider meaning then.
Times change. Quite possible to change the lyric and let everyone learn a little lesson.
listened to it last night the word jumped out & I had to listen again to make sure I heard it right.
Even if it's not deemed offensive in the US, it would be good to it's etymology as I wonder if they are just behind us a bit. As it wasn't offensive when I grew up (it was - but we knew no better)
I think in America, it just means someone who is uncoordinated. iirc there was another song which had also had the word in it recently, and the singer changed it when they became aware of the offense it can cause in the uk.
I'm not sure the 'didn't know it was pretty offensive in another country' defence is applicable when one's content is distributed through international chains with local offices. I find it hard to believe nobody in the UK listened to it before release and went 'yeah, bit of a red flag on that one'.
Yeah, that’s not good enough nowadays.
Edit: I assume as a 43 year old male, Lizzo won't really care about my opinion. However, I just played it to by two daughters (14 & 16) who were both pretty disgusted.
It is so very inoffensive in the US that a wheelchair company even sells a model of wheelchair called the 'Spazz'
https://www.1800wheelchair.com/product/spazz-g-ultralight-wheelchair-by-colours/
Wow! Controversy in music! That must be a first!?! 😆
The word in question doesn’t have quite the same meaning and nastiness in the States as it has over here
Apparently so. Hopefully the lyrics will be updated. Although I've heard young people in the UK saying they don't understand the origin of the term, so who knows.
MrsMC has cerebral palsy. I've called out and reported posters on here for using that term, and had to be restrained at work to avoid a gross misconduct charge when some bell end used it.
Don't really see much wrong with it, but then it's not really aimed at middle aged mountain bikers
Edited. Didn't like the tone of what I'd written.
A bit too much about me.
but then it’s not really aimed at middle aged mountain bikers
You mean they should decide to be offended without listening to it? or not listen to it and be offended on behalf of someone else? Or listen to something they don’t like anyway so they can decide whether they would be offended if they liked it? or didn’t like it… man, it’s so confusing
Well it looks like Lizzo has listened to the compliants and changed the lyrics...
A good response to a mistake on her part.
Yes, the record label should have done better for her.
Yeah you can't say that in a song lol. Glad to see she's done the right thing!
A prompt, heartfelt and proportionate response, exactly what was required.
This won't lose her any fans and may even gain her a few.
Nice to see someone who, when they make a mistake, doesn't immediately double down and start squawking about being cancelled, thereby strongly suggesting that it was never a mistake in the first place.
Cool. Good on her, saves a lot of internet frothing. I still prefer her early stuff anyway 🙂
‘as a fat black woman in America, I have had many hurtful words used against me’.
Right..... is this an excuse or a reason to have known better?
Glad it's still fine to call each other bitches and say we want to knock each other out. Phew!
I find it hard to believe nobody in the UK listened to it before release and went ‘yeah, bit of a red flag on that one’.
i would guess the average age of those listening to it before release in pretty much any market will be well under 30. Probably a similar demographic after it's been released to be fair...
Right….. is this an excuse or a reason to have known better?
What's your point caller? She did something, it was pointed out to her, she learnt & changed the lyric?
What did she learn exactly?
i would guess the average age of those listening to it before release in pretty much any market will be well under 30.
I do actually listen to that kinda thang (See you can tell I'm down wid it), have a couple of Lizzo albums, but I'd not heard this one. Thing is, it woulda just passed me by. As SirromJ suggests, the lyrical content of the hippety hoppety type music is really, seriously, not something to be offended by. I mean if you want to listen to the stuff. For example "W.A.P." was a huge mainstream hit!
Funny thing is, all the references to bitches, hos, niggaz, moneymoneymoney, aggressiveness, etc, just can't listen to it any more.
cynical me thinks it could have been a marketing trick without her even knowing. She may have been unaware but I really doubt the people promoting it weren't. They didn't have any physical media released so nothing to recover/destroy there, just change the streamed version. Lizzo apologizes as she didn't know (and that is very likely) and her brand is reinforced along with loads of links to the song as it is discussed
all the references to bitches, hos, niggaz, moneymoneymoney, aggressiveness, etc, just can’t listen to it any more.
Oh yeah, tons of it is just so formulaic and unimaginative, lyrically... But there is plenty out there that doesn't have that kind of content.
‘as a fat black woman in America, I have had many hurtful words used against me’.
Right….. is this an excuse or a reason to have known better?
...you could always finish reading her sentence?
“I have had many hurtful words used against me so I understand the power words can have (whether intentionally, or in my case, unintentionally.)”
Which tbf I take to mean she should have known better, but didn't, but does now or something. Whatever, she seems like a laugh and plays a mean flute (check her npr tiny desk concert).
Wow what a time we live in. Imagine if people could be motivated to tackle actual problems instead of constantly fighting over words.
I wonder how the source of her main sample would go down in 2022
I wonder how the source of her main sample would go down in 2022
that was the tour where they had the giant inflatable penis?
(I say 'giant', looked pretty average actually.)
I wonder how the source of her main sample would go down in 2022
Yep, pretty much goes along with what I said in my first post on the thread.
Well, I learned two things today.
First, I'd never heard of the artist and it took half a dozen Vaguebooking STW posts for someone to actually say what you were on about.
Second, after a brief google, it transpires that the line in the Kim Carnes song isn't "all the boys think she's a spaz, she's got Bette Davis eyes" which is what I'd believed it was since the 1980s.
Well it looks like Lizzo has listened to the compliants and changed the lyrics…
One slight mistype and the whole meaning and tone of the sentence changes. 😀
I think Cougar should apologise for his thought crimes.
Mrs. 10 is an American. She says that she would consider it offensive. But it does seem to be in kind of common usage here.
i would guess the average age of those listening to it before release in pretty much any market will be well under 30.
She's a 6 music regular, which we all know is aimed squarely at blokes in their 50's. She's been top of my 'people I really want to see live but haven't yet' list for some time. If you watch her Glastonbury set from 2019 it was absolutely awesome
I would imagine that if you're of the bed-wetting sensitive persuasion you could get upset about the majority of her work
But lets remind ourselves of her genius with some utter filth (definitely NSFW!)
😀
I'd love a car like that for some of those speed bumps around here.
Reminds me of going to 'inclusivity' training at work a few years ago (I'm in Canada). 2 hours of 'how not to offend anyone'.... Near the end someone made a random comment (can't remember what...) to which to trainer replied "That's a bummer!". I nearly strained my eyes as they rolled back so far.... So yeah, there's a big difference in language between different English speaking countries.
There's one episode of Friends which has a higher age rating over here than all the others (The One With The East German Laundry Detergent) because Rachel uses that word to describe her ineptitude at doing the laundry. In the States, Spastic was never used as a term to refer to people with cerebral palsy. It's not really been a common insult over here for years so it's fairly likely she'd never have heard the term used in any non-American way.
She's demonstrated exactly what we should all do when we learn that a word is problematic - she's apologised and corrected the mistake.
We never thought about it’s origins or wider meaning then.
Nah, that's not true. We pulled faces and moved our arms in a way that showed we knew exactly what it meant. See also calling people Joey. But then we grew up.
In the States, Spastic was never used as a term to refer to people with cerebral palsy.
Not sure that's true. But it is true that it has become normalised and distanced from its origin over there. Much like... [ better pick one carefully ] ...nitty-gritty over here.
Not sure that’s true. But it is true that it has become normalised and distanced from its origin over there.
The explanation I heard was that the terms on both sides of the Atlantic have their origins in spasmodic, but over here it was applied to people with cerebral palsy while in the States it was to clumsy people. But, maybe not.
it has become normalised and distanced from its origin over there. Much like… [ better pick one carefully ] …nitty-gritty over here
Bulldozer is a term that I try to avoid, having found out its origin. Nitty gritty I always remember just after using it, but use it so infrequently that it's hard to rewire those synapses. I keep trying though.
Bulldozer is a term that I try to avoid, having found out its origin.
I have no idea what it means other than the tracked earthmover. Would like to know the origin.
Is nitty-gritty the one where there is no actual evidence of it being associated with the slave trade & for which there are several different reasons given as to why it might be racist?
Around 1870s: In the USA, a "bulldose" was a large dose (namely, one large enough to be literally or figuratively effective against a bull) of any sort of medicine or punishment.
By the late 1870s, "to bulldoze" and "bulldozing" were being used throughout the United States to describe intimidation "by violent and unlawful means", which sometimes meant a severe whipping or coercion, or other intimidation, such as at gunpoint. It had a particular meaning in the Southern United States as a whipping or other punishment for African Americans to suppress black voter turnout in the 1876 United States presidential election.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldozer#History_of_the_word
From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spaz
Definition of spaz
slang, often offensive
: one who is inept : KLUTZ
Examples of spaz in a Sentence:
I'm a real spaz on the ski slopes.
I haven't played tennis in years, so don't be surprised if I am a total spaz on the court.
It's a bit of a reach to think that Lizzo has used it in any other meaning than this, I don't think she's writing her songs thinking "this'll really put it to the Cerebal Palsy crowd"
What did she learn exactly?
Does it need explaining to you in words of no more that one syllable?
Awfully decent of her to change the lyrics without much fuss. Like her even more now.
What did she learn exactly?
It's less about her I think - she has a whole team of people/companies/lawyers managing her music and it's distribution globally.
I think it's more of a question of why this wasn't flagged prior to release by "her people". Or maybe it was flagged, but ignored on the basis that (if you just look it up in Merriam-Webster, as above) it just presents as a fairly generic slang term for a clumsy person.
Where as (in this case), I obviously see how the term "Spaz" is offensive, and would never use it myself, I'm not 100% convinced that we need to examine the aetiology of every single slang term that we use to determine whether it might hypothetically cause offence (again: not talking about spaz - that's just offensive). "Bulldozer" above is a great example. If the above is true, I understand that it has a pretty awful origin - but it simply doesn't mean that any more: A bulldozer is something else, and people are using it (correctly) in that context.
I'm absolutely not part of the "it's PC gawn maaaaad - you can't say anything any more" brigade - but I think that people have to accept that language evolves in both directions. Ie: I think everyone accepts that there are things that were acceptable to say 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago, that you can't/shouldn't say any more. But I think we also need to accept the other side of that coin: that certain words/sayings have become so detached for their original root, that they just don't mean that any more.
I must admit that it’s a word that I sometimes use to describe my legs on a bad day. Muscle spasticity is not a fun condition, and given the medication dose I take for it, mine isn’t that bad.
blimey, thought this was done & dusted when she apologised and changed the release.
everyone accepts that there are things that were acceptable to say 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago, that you can’t/shouldn’t say any more
Tell that to the rappers 😛
Much like… [ better pick one carefully ] …nitty-gritty over here.
This being problematic was a new one on me so I googled it.
nitty-gritty
/nɪtɪˈɡrɪti/
Origin
1960s: of unknown origin.
There's a few unsubstantiated posts saying "it might have been..." but that's somewhat reaching.
Bulldozer is a term that I try to avoid, having found out its origin.
This I didn't know either and, again with the power of the mighty Google, that's actually pretty shocking. But realistically would anyone alive today make that association over a big yellow lump of metal?
Bulldozer is a term that I try to avoid, having found out its origin.
It's not a "term", it's a word and if you said Ooh, look at the size of that bulldozer! No-one, anywhere, ever would go "You can't say that you racist!" (except maybe in Alabamy)
No fuss, some words are less offensive in different places. US, Spaz and Retard don't seem to be offensive at all.
However words like 'salad' aren't offensive in the US, but are hugely offensive in Scotland!
My 19yr old daughter and her friends use the word in normal conversation.
It's not the same as it was in the 80s - and they don't pull their arms into their t-shirt sleeves and do stupid impressions.
I blame the parents.
I heard both my daughters use it in the early teens, they’ve not used it in front of me since.
Pitchforks down, everyone. Someone explained the issue to her and she's changed the lyric...
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jun/14/lizzo-removes-harmful-ableist-slur-from-new-song-grrrls-after-criticism
It’s not the same as it was in the 80s – and they don’t pull their arms into their t-shirt sleeves and do stupid impressions
I’m sure Blue Peter had the best of intentions when they put Joey Deacon on telly but it did fuel a whole new world of playground taunts
I’m sure Blue Peter had the best of intentions when they put Joey Deacon on telly but it did fuel a whole new world of playground taunts
Not for the most honourable of reasons, but I think that was the last time the nation really spoke as one. We've had Royal weddings, jubilees, Euro's, Olympics, which have created some togetherness but on that one morning the nation spoke with one voice. And that voice said....'did you see Blue Peter last night!!!!'
Does it need explaining to you in words of no more that one syllable?
Yes please.
Ableist slur - first time I've heard that one.
Kids are quite creative. Especially when it comes to insults.
One of my mates was quite imaginative on this front and combined it with another equally offensive word to produce a hydrid insult to cover all bases and called me a spaztard
She also used to call me a flod, which is a combination of flid and spod
Lizzo needs to up her game
However words like ‘salad’ aren’t offensive in the US, but are hugely offensive in Scotland!
A Burger nae shite. Classic scottish order in the bar.
Pitchforks down, everyone. Someone explained the issue to her and...
What, [i]again[/i] ??
A Burger nae shite
justifies the thread
Apparently Beyonce has recently released an album with a song including the word "spaz" in it twice.
How weird. Even if she lives in a bubble, she's been rather let down by the people who work for her, unless they fundamentally disagree with the outcome of the Lizzo furore.
That's the least of your worries with the new Beyonce album
https://www.wired.com/story/beyonce-conspiracy-theories-revelation/
A more detailed look at the issue of the term having different meanings to different communities -
As a 60s kid i have an extensive list of words i have not used for 50 years.
In the States, Spastic was never used as a term to refer to people with cerebral palsy.
I know quite a few Americans and Canadians. They use "spaz" a lot. They all understand what "spastic" means.
Worst thing is, Lizzo's new album is really bland. Back to Cupcakke for me.
and Beyonce
Hang on! Apart from anything else does it really cost £70 to get Beyoncé’s new album?!
Is this another excuse for people to be outraged?
Person did a thing, was pointed out to be offensive, person said sorry and changed word.
If it's the same lizzo that I heard this morning it was bland sameyness to loads of other. Though the concept of the track was given and quite interesting.
There are lots of offensive terms, this thread reminded me of the term epo (referring to having tantrum).
Again not actually heard it used that way for years. But the same applies with times moving.
And as for beyonce I hope the pit girl thread people don't see that cover. Not sure there are enough buscuits
Hang on! Apart from anything else does it really cost £70 to get Beyoncé’s new album?!
Assuming a vinyl release right? Check Ya Head reissue from the Beastie Boys is like 130-160 I think.
The word 'Spastic' is nothing new in songs. Billy Joel used it in 1983 in Good Night Saigon -
We came in spastic
Like tameless horses
We left in plastic
As numbered corpses
I think in this case he meant it a little differently though.
Check Ya Head reissue from the Beastie Boys is like 130-160 I think.
Aptly titled then!
Assuming a vinyl release right? Check Ya Head reissue from the Beastie Boys is like 130-160 I think.
Their Greatest Hits is available in a 5 part set. Parts A to D are free, but you've got to fight for your right to Part E