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I'm old I tend to undersell the amount of time that has passed. Tipperary and Cork are much improved through being part over Europe since I was there an unspecified number of years ago greater than 25.
You can express your views and be civil about it. This has far more impact than spewing bile and venom. That does absolutely nothing of value, for readers on either side.
You can never change anyone’s mind by pissing them off. Ever.
You're assuming that that's what posters are trying to do, rather than just venting in frustration.
I've tried it. I tried different methods for years from 2016 until it was simply too late and I'm far from the only one. Minds changed: tending towards zero. You might as well be asking a fundamental Christian if they've heard the good news about Islam.
Has a new Minister for Brexit Opportunities been announced, or has the position quietly disappeared?
I think all the opportunities have now been realised. Turned out great didn't it.
You might as well be asking a fundamental Christian if they’ve heard the good news about Islam.
Ok so you can state your views without driving people away. This isn't supposed to be a clique, and is the worse for being one.
Lot of people in Ireland have the surname Coffey, but people can be disowned.
Mr Coffey is very disappointed in his distant cousin. I'm glad he's no longer here to see how badly she turned out
The economy in Ireland was certainly booming during the Celtic Tiger period (98-2000) but as one popular economist at the time pointed out there were more BMW's in Dublin than in Munich but most were not paid for.
Similarly having lived in Switzerland, Ireland has a very long way to go as regards infrastructure. If you haven't a car, bus/coaches are the only way to get from city to city. And rural towns traffic are a nightmare due to little public transport.
Trees Coffey? When the chips are down she will show herself to be very self-serving.
Ill give an example of the cognitive dissonance that ime many tory voters exhibit.
I have a relative who is true blue tory brexiteer and thinks johnson and rees mogg are great. Her husband collapsed and she had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance. I pointed out that this is what she had voted for in that long waits for ambulances is a direct result of tory policy. She just got really angry and would not accept that at all
I was not just referring to Ireland but two things struck me about Ireland. Far less overt poverty visible and people are much less angry.
I dont think people there die of starvation like they do in the UK
Has a new Minister for Brexit Opportunities been announced, or has the position quietly disappeared?
There is too much good news to announce, so they've left it to other ministers.
I don’t think that even the majority of Tory MPs have any faith in them.
General Election by March.
There is a big difference between a lack of faith and tory MPs voting for a GE since most would fancy retaining their seats. Replace the leader sure but not go for a GE (its one good argument about not having a new PM triggering a GE since that would reduce massively the chances of a useless PM being given the boot).
There is a possibility that she would be booted out after a year to give her replacement a year prior to the GE.
However it would be a really risky move for her replacement since if they lose the GE thats their career finished. Better to let her lead the party into defeat and take over then.
Back on track, these Tories are the most right wing ever in power. They are a long way from Ken Clark and Rory Stewart.
Back when my kid was in primary school they had a talent competition....
Some kids actually had some "real talents"they had spent years developing like playing Rachmaninoff etc. but my kid decided he was going to enter anyway.
Given he couldn't take his best talent (one he had done some work/practice) into an assembly hall he decided he was going to just go up and tell jokes... his mother (who worked at the school) was horrified but he calmly explained (sic) "the talent show is decided by voting - its got nothing to do with actual talent only how many people vote for you and if I make people laugh instead of feeling jealous they'll vote for me".
I'm not saying making people laugh isn't a real talent... it's just something he could walk up and do without any actual work or prep
So yeah ... Boris the clown followed by Truss... it's like Boris had to work at being a clown to cover his incompetence and avoid actually doing any work or actually reading or understanding anything.
Truss is just a natural... she's hilarious and I don't think she even needs to try.
it's amazing, she's so out there incompetent you even get laughs just by pretending to agree with her....
I have a relative who is true blue tory brexiteer and thinks johnson and rees mogg are great. Her husband collapsed and she had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance. I pointed out that this is what she had voted for in that long waits for ambulances is a direct result of tory policy. She just got really angry and would not accept that at all
It appears to me that a certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required, if you are a non-rich Tory voter. I honestly think many of that group don't really understand how things work. Change my mind..?
I have a relative who is true blue tory brexiteer and thinks johnson and rees mogg are great. Her husband collapsed and she had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance. I pointed out that this is what she had voted for in that long waits for ambulances is a direct result of tory policy. She just got really angry and would not accept that at all
It is hardly surprising that she got angry, no one voted for "6 hours" ambulance wait. And however much you might want to rubbish the ambulance service I am sure that a 6 hour wait in response to someone collapsing isn't the norm, so she had every reason to be dissatisfied. Was this in Scotland?
Obviously exceptions exist:
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/eight-minute-emergency-ambulance-takes-25513273
But I would still expect people to be justifiably angry if they had to wait an unacceptable period of time. Telling them that they 'voted for it' is unlikely to calm them down and bring them round to your way of thinking.
I suggest that you try a different tactic on your true blue relative instead of trying to wind her up.
Was this in Scotland?
A true blue Tory brexiteer? Doesn't seem likely.
I suggest that you try a different tactic on your true blue relative
Like what?
Like what?
Perhaps something less confrontational?
Telling someone who is justifiably angry about something that it's all their fault doesn't seem like a particularly good tactic. And by TJ's own admission it apparently spectacularly failed.
A true blue Tory brexiteer? Doesn’t seem likely.
Visited Perthshire recently? 😂
And however much you might want to rubbish the ambulance service I am sure that a 6 hour wait in response to someone collapsing isn’t the norm, so she had every reason to be dissatisfied. Was this in Scotland?
In Yorkshire in early summer I was at a kids Rugby festival.
One lad was injured, a neck injury. St Johns were on site and said he needed to be immobilised and an ambulance. Ambulance wait was 5 hours. They asked if they should bring him in in their vehicle and were told that moving him would be dangerous.
When we left two hours later he was still on the floor.
It's not really calling the ambulance service to say there are massive issues with it. But saying it's all fine is to deny reality.
There was something on the telly yesterday about long waiting times for ambulances in Scotland, which is why I asked.
Perhaps something less confrontational?
Like...?
It’s not really calling the ambulance service to say there are massive issues with it. But saying it’s all fine is to deny reality.
The link that I posted was to show that all is clearly not fine. However to tell someone that they voted for it, when they clearly didn't, isn't likely to get the response that you might have hoped.
Has a new Minister for Brexit Opportunities been announced, or has the position quietly disappeared?
Does anyone want it?
Having a non sequitur as a job title is hardly going to look good on the CV.
Perhaps most amusingly "Levelling Up" is still a position, Lucky old Simon Clarke gets to put that on his CV...
JRM has been given Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, Braverman has the Home office so I fully expect the pair of them to be sending young offenders, prisoners and Asylum seekers to work in Victorian style coal mines and mills, if they die on the job they'll be liquefied and their juices used for fracking...
Kemi Badenoch gets international trade, probably a tougher brief given the UK's international standing and she's probably been given it to keep her busy and out of the way having shown a bit too much promise in hustings...
ernielynch
Perhaps something less confrontational?
Telling someone who is justifiably angry about something that it’s all their fault doesn’t seem like a particularly good tactic. And by TJ’s own admission it apparently spectacularly failed.
No way to know if it failed or not until she votes next time...
I go for...
"Well, I didn't vote for this, did you?"
To which, the answer is obviously "no"... hopefully followed by a thoughtful pause.
The gap between what people hope their vote is for, and what it actually delivers, needs to pointed out sometimes. You can vote for a more prosperous country, better services, a better life for everyone you know... but if that isn't delivered... that should be thought about, often, before voting again.
Molgrips
It appears to me that a certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required, if you are a non-rich Tory voter. I honestly think many of that group don’t really understand how things work. Change my mind..?
On one hand it's the same mentality as the "pro-life/pro-capital punishment/pro guns"
On the other hand what makes you think they are not voting for what they BELIEVE is in the best interests of the country if not themselves? (Or would you say anyone "rich" that is voting for labour has "a certain amount of cognitive dissonance")
She is way down south. I think rees mogg is a tually her mp
Long ambulance waits are a direct and deliberate consequence of tory policy so yes she did vote for it. She knew damn well the tories especially rees mogg want to get rid of the health service. Apart from anything else i had had that debate with her pre election.
Its just an example of the cognitive dissonance.
(Or would you say anyone “rich” that is voting for labour has “a certain amount of cognitive dissonance”)
No. Id say they had a social conscience
tj you talk some absolute drivel sometimes. Does that mean all Labour voters are war-mongers cos they voted for illegal wars.
And however much you might want to rubbish the ambulance service I am sure that a 6 hour wait in response to someone collapsing isn’t the norm, so she had every reason to be dissatisfied.
I had significant chest pains on holiday in North Wales, enough for me to call am ambulance at about 12am having read about heart attacks on here. I was told it was an 8 hour wait. So I think it very much normal now.
Perhaps something less confrontational?
Like…?
Make it clear that it's the current Tory government at fault. People bristle and push back when you make them angry with personal attacks - and yes, 'it's your fault' is personal. If you can convince them that the Tory government is the problem, not themselves, it is much more likely to make them think twice about voting for them.
'But Labour would have been worse.'
People are lazy thinkers by default, stereotypes, conspiracies and prejudice are convenient responses when you're surrounded by DM ideology. Playing on fears and three word slogans (produced very expensively for the govt by an agency the civil service has had to buy into) does the trick.
Does that mean all Labour voters are war-mongers cos they voted for illegal wars.
The same wars the tories supported full heartedly whereas, at least, some Labour MPs were opposed.
Those wars?
The same wars the tories supported full heartedly whereas, at least, some Labour MPs were opposed.
Those wars?
Yes. those wars. Do I need to name them specifically?
Long ambulance waits are a direct and deliberate consequence of tory policy so yes she did vote for it.
Long ambulance waits might well be the consequence of voting Tory, but no one goes to the polling station with the intention of voting for a government which they hope will bring long ambulance waiting times.
So pointing an accusing finger at them and telling them that they voted for it seems daft. I don't understand why you appear to be surprised that your relative got "really angry".
To reiterate the point.
It is hardly surprising that she got angry, no one voted for “6 hours” ambulance wait.
Sure they did. This is how the conversation went time and time and time again:
"There's too many foreigners and that's a drain on the NHS, I can't get a doctor's appointment."
"The NHS employs a higher-than-average number of migrant staff, a greater percentage work in it than use it. If we reduce immigration or 'send them back where they came from' then waiting times will get longer not shorter."
"Project fear / we knew what we were voting for / we won you lost shut up and get over it."
🤷♂️
If they weren't warned then I'd agree with you. But they were, repeatedly, and just wouldn't listen. They absolutely voted for this and probably will again.
I grant you though, "well it's your own fault" when someone's upset about their partner collapsing is hardly the most tactful or empathic of responses...
Thats actually more like the conversation went molgrips
Jambougie
Nice personal attack and look a squirrel
Long ambulance waits are a direct and deliberate result of tory policy.
It appears to me that a certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required, if you are a non-rich Tory voter. I honestly think many of that group don’t really understand how things work. Change my mind..?
Caught up with extended family at the weekend, my mums cousins, all born 1930s/40s, brought up in poor terraced areas round Leeds, all done well for themselves as teachers, accountants etc, happily retired, blue tory brexit fans, no filter for casual racism, the plight of modern day poor people, or understanding why, for example, their daughter daughter who is a nurse rolled her eyes when they were moaning aboutthe NHS
Their lived experience has been totally different to mine, I get that, but they are so blinkered by it.
As are some on tbe left, of course.
I grant you though, “well it’s your own fault” when someone’s upset about their partner collapsing is hardly the most tactful or empathic of responses…
You reckon? 😂
Or the most effective. If I was his relative I'd make sure to vote tory from there on in even if I didn't want to. Got to, for the sake of karma. Pious, puritanical hectoring gets you nowhere.
She's worse at PMQs than I expected. This should be her victory performance.
I honestly think many of that group don’t really understand how things work. Change my mind..?
I honestly think that many people don’t really understand how things work regardless of any "group" they may belong to.
Rather, I think that many people of "that group" don’t really want to understand how things work. We're back to head vs heart again.
Nice personal attack
Bless.
Sure they did. This is how the conversation went time and time and time again:
You know this Cougar? Are you related to TJ too?
Or just lazy stereotyping?
Pious, puritanical hectoring gets you nowhere.
Exactly. It might make you feel better but it really makes the situation worse. It entrenches views, and that's the last thing we need. If you piss people off they'll dislike you, and that will make voting the same way as you much harder to swallow.
MrsIHN is an actuary, she's literally just come off a call about mortality and longevity assumptions, with a particular focus on the population at a lower socio-economic level that are the typical holders of the life assurance policies in question. They need to do this because they need to, at the most basic level, make sure they have enough money to pay the claims
The point of the call was to discuss how many people are dying, is it more than usual (this is called 'excess deaths'), and if so, will that trend continue. The answers are a) a lot and b) yes and c) yes. The reason is no longer Covid. The reason is, pretty much, that the NHS is under appalling pressure; appointments are delayed or unavailable, diagnoses and treatments are delayed, ambulances are arriving too late. And an upcoming winter where people at that socio-economic will be choosing between heating and eating will make the situation even worse.
TL:DR - It's a cold-hard fact that poor people are dying because the NHS is f___ed.
(Or would you say anyone “rich” that is voting for labour has “a certain amount of cognitive dissonance”)
That's enlightened self interest. If the less well-off are happy they're unlikely to want to rob/kill the rich. (I generalise grossly for effect).
Is that cleverly being an arse in the background on the front bench. What a child.
You know this Cougar? Are you related to TJ too?
In TJ's specific example, I don't as well you know.
Or just lazy stereotyping?
No, repeated personal experience, I've had this conversation many times with different people. Or to put that in Erniespeak, "do you know my personal experiences?"
It entrenches views,
I hate to break it to you Mols, but they're already entrenched. The horse hasn't just bolted, it owns a well-stocked hardware shop. It'll take more than "nice horsey" to get them onside.
"now, I'm all for the beavers"
Corrupt ooft
TJ and Cougar are AI bots - it's part of Mark's website upgrade master-plan to drive forum hits.
No human could keep up with their posting rates! 🤣🤣🤣
Or to put that in Erniespeak, “do you know my personal experiences?”
No I don't know your personal experience, nor do I know TJ's relative's personal experience. Nor why they apparently vote Tory.
But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring. Some are indeed very kind and caring, despite their inability to come to the correct political conclusion.
I judge people as individuals, I leave bigotry to others.
I hate to break it to you Mols, but they’re already entrenched.
I don't personally believe that. I think most intelligent people's views are flexible.
But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring.
Absolutely spot on. Which is why the disconnect between their own hopes and intentions and what their vote has actually enabled needs to be made plain to them. In a friendly rather than confrontational way, of course. That’s what many of us do in private with friends and family. Posting on a forum isn’t quite the same. It can be overly confrontational. Some posters fuel that more than others.
TL:DR – It’s a cold-hard fact that poor people are dying because the NHS is f___ed.
I read a heart-breaking post on Twitter (before seperating myself from that cesspit of toxicity) that basically said that we're now past any natural "stretch" in the health system, where people can just work a bit harder or longer and make up shortfall - people at all levels are now daily working beyond safe capacity, so mistakes will be made and lives will be lost.
But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring. Some are indeed very kind and caring, despite their inability to come to the correct political conclusion.
I totally agree - we're pretty sure the in-laws (and possibly much of my own family) vote blue, and they're universally lovely people. Interestingly, politics is never discussed.
Surely if somebody doesn't believe that voting Tory will result in longer waits for an ambulance they can't be accused of voting for it. It may be a direct consequence of the way they voted, but if they didn't believe that at the time then they didn't deliberately vote for longer waits.
I have a number of friends and family who vote that way. Heck I've even given them my vote on occasions when I thought it was the best option. Almost without exception they genuinely think that the policies of the party they vote for are the best for the country and not just best for them.
I hate to break it to you Mols, but they’re already entrenched. The horse hasn’t just bolted, it owns a well-stocked hardware shop. It’ll take more than “nice horsey” to get them onside.
Just because you can't think of how to fix it, doesn't mean it's not fixable. Giving up and just laying into people is guaranteed not to work, so why not try something that might?
@IHN I hope you are tweeting things like that.
But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring. Some are indeed very kind and caring, despite their inability to come to the correct political conclusion.
I agree.
The ones who are racist or selfish though, how would you suppose they're more likely to vote?
TJ and Cougar are AI bots – it’s part of Mark’s website upgrade master-plan to drive forum hits.
No human could keep up with their posting rates!
TJ is having a break from cycling, holed up in a hotel room with nothing but his phone. God help us 😉
The ones who are racist or selfish though, how would you suppose they’re more likely to vote?
More likely, perhaps, but that doesn't mean that some rascist/selfish/bigoted in other ways people don't vote Labour
Surely if somebody doesn’t believe that voting Tory will result in longer waits for an ambulance they can’t be accused of voting for it.
In isolation, I agree. But if they've had it explained to them, then they reject that new information because it doesn't fit with their established beliefs and vote for it anyway then... well.
More likely, perhaps, but that doesn’t mean that some rascist/selfish/bigoted in other ways people don’t vote Labour
Has anyone suggested that they didn't?
There's more straw men on this thread than the Wray Scarecrow Festival.
@IHN I hope you are tweeting things like that.
I'm not, cos I'm not on Twitter. Feel free to if you want to though.
I have a number of friends and family who vote that way. Heck I’ve even given them my vote on occasions when I thought it was the best option. Almost without exception they genuinely think that the policies of the party they vote for are the best for the country and not just best for them.
This.
But if they’ve had it explained to them, then they reject that new information because it doesn’t fit with their established beliefs
One of my old mates is a paranoid stoner. Every time I see him he 'explains to me' why lizards etc... I listen to him because I like and respect him and find his discourse interesting and engaging. But I still reject the new information.
If people are rejecting 'the new information' that you are EXPLAINING TO THEM, perhaps you're not being nice or charming enough. Assuming your information is 100% true.
Listening to BBC World at One coverage of PMQs... they're really bigging up Truss' first appearance. Quite magical really. I'd suggest listening to it unedited yourself, rather than their clipping and comments.
The ones who are racist or selfish though, how would you suppose they’re more likely to vote?
Just asking the question betrays bigotry, whatever the answer the only acceptable response is to judge people as individuals.
There is currently an avalanche of knife crime in Croydon, it is almost invariably black on black, I have even had the misfortune of witnessing it myself.
Now I'm not saying that white people never commit violent crime but, you know, a lot of black people do.
Is that ^^ comment acceptable? Do you judge an individual based on the behaviour of others, especially if that behaviour is prevalent?
I don't come to a conclusion of someone's character based on the character of others. So your question is pointless.
Listening to BBC World at One coverage of PMQs… they’re really bigging up Truss’ first appearance.
Sounds like typical BBC to me, with their right-wing bias!
Actually I was having first lunch. Now having second lunch.
In my relative's case she certainly did know becuase i had shown her direct quotes from rees mogg calling for an end to the NHS prior to the election.
She still voted tory and for rees mogg. She just refuses to listen to anything than is not in the daily mail
In my relative’s case she certainly did know becuase i had shown her direct quotes from rees mogg.......
You sound like fun at family gatherings!
You sound like fun at family gatherings!
I think he's telling porkies. Nobody's that weird 🤣
i had shown her direct quotes from rees mogg calling for an end to the NHS prior to the election.
She still voted tory and for rees mogg.
She probably wouldn't have done if you'd not spoken at her.
You don't believe it?......"Here comes Jeremy with his quotes from Rees-Mogg"
She probably wouldn’t have done if you’d not spoken at her.
Actually, I take that back. Someone like JRM is always going to attract votes from some people. He's quite the anachronism. I suppose he appears to some to represent a 'high society' old school upper class of which they aspire to. He could eat babies for breakfast but he gets a vote because he uses received pronunciation.
Just asking the question betrays bigotry
Nonsense.
People are going to vote - if they can be arsed at all - for the party that they believe (rightly or wrongly) reflects their own views. To suggest that isn't 'bigotry,' it's common sense. Do you suppose that many people who voted Remain in the referendum were avid UKIP supporters or EDL members? There may have been some of course, but surely a statistically insignificant number.
There's 67 million people in the UK. Get back to us when you've asked them all individually and we'll compare notes.
There’s 67 million people in the UK. Get back to us when you’ve asked them all individually and we’ll compare notes.
Good point - it seems like an enormous task.
Probably best to rely on lazy stereotyping and prejudice then.
People are going to vote – if they can be arsed at all – for the party that they believe (rightly or wrongly) is the nearest to reflecting their own views.
It's a small but important distinction. Few people have the choice of voting for a party with whom they agree on everything, or, indeed, much. Most people, I think make a least-worst-choice decision, and in the last election a lot of people held their noses and picked one of two, frankly terrible, options.
There is currently an avalanche of knife crime in Croydon, it is almost invariably black on black, I have even had the misfortune of witnessing it myself.
Now I’m not saying that white people never commit violent crime but, you know, a lot of black people do.
Is that ^^ comment acceptable? Do you judge an individual based on the behaviour of others, especially if that behaviour is prevalent?
No that comment isn't acceptable.
No I do not - otherwise I'd despise everyone that looks like Tory.
Most people, I think make a least-worst-choice decision
Nail on head.