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Ah shroTrussingers vote,perhaps she didn’t vote hoping they would let her go.
I think that just what happened is that the Labour party created a situation whereby the Tories just forced all their MPs to vote for fracking? Something that goes against a clear manifesto promise, and against (I think) the clear will of the public.
I think that labour tried to stop fracking, and the tories trapped themselves with sheer stupidity and arrogance.
Sounds convenient, I voted No but my vote didn't register, now it's turned out like it has I can disclose that. If it had gone differently, I could have denied it.
Under normal times you'd accept the explanation, in current times you're suspicious about everything.
Anne Marie Travelian is presently is on radio 4 telling us it’s simply business as usual today and nothing has changed
Sadly she is right though. It is business as usual for this bunch of idiots.
I can understand DUP and Sinn Fein not voting, but why did so many Labour members not vote?
^^^This - can any of our own political big hitters explain please
Anne Marie Travelian
That ****ing thunder**** is my MP.
And she's being absolutely destroyed on ITV news just now...
but why did so many Labour members not vote
Because they were elsewhere. For everyone but the Tories it's business as normal effectively, so if it's not a vote you're likely to win you'd not go out of your way to be there. Most of the missing labour MPs are from the farther flung parts.
Cruella is set to deliver a parting speech in the commons this morning
Remember when Geoffrey Howe stood up behind Thatcher and quietly delivered a stiletto between the shoulder blades
Well it’ll be nothing like that
Picture it reimagined by ceebeebies
Maybe some of those. But Johnson? He’s just off on his jollies again. A work shy absent father of a politician. That he can still claim to be an MP is a mystery.
It tends to happen with all ex leaders, they go into hiding for a while, then reappear on the backbenches, i'd hazard a guess Truss and her team are requesting him to avoid Parliament, he's a showman who would love to revel in all her misery just now if he could!
I don’t like politics particularly and have no time for the he said she said behaviour it usually drives, but I have to say it seems like Liz Truss and the Conservative Party might be in danger of uniting the whole country! The whole situation is beyond parody.
Very refreshing to hear a politician (of any brand) speaking so openly:
I think we need a general election now (but agree the Tories will do all they can to avoid it)
Edit: Taken from another forum, before I’m accused of being a Grauniad reader 😀
I imagine Rishi is presently sat with his feet up by the pool in California, laughing his tits off and thanking the lord that he’s nowhere near this absolute ****ing shitstorm!
Apparently he's actually very active as a local MP (surprised me, I had him down as a stereotypical safe seat parachuted in absentee MP too).
Some other MP on before who was slating the government. Amazing bit of a mess. We have gone from Labour offering no opposition to Conservatives collapsing and will offer no opposition once Labour get its. Complete collapse.
I *think* that having the whip removed means your letter to the 1922 committee doesn't count (somewhere up thread a Tory MP was going on about how he would vote against the motion so he kept the whip and his letter still counted). So assuming a greater % of Tory MPs who abstained last night sent letters in than have those who voted, this makes Liz's position more secure. Also apparently the 1922 committee has decided they need letters from 1/3 of MPs (presumably not counting the whipless) to take action now and ignore the one year no-challenge period (I think that bit was a Peston tweet).
So it was all a masterful ploy to flush out opponents and de-whip them.
I can understand DUP and Sinn Fein not voting, but why did so many Labour members not vote?
^^^This – can any of our own political big hitters explain please
Because of Starmer, Corbyn, Blair, Michael Foot. Obviously.
Because they were elsewhere. For everyone but the Tories it’s business as normal effectively, so if it’s not a vote you’re likely to win you’d not go out of your way to be there.
It wasn't particularly about Labour winning the vote, that would have been a bonus - as said elsewhere it pushed the tory MP's into either voting against their leadership in a confidence motion, or against a divisive local issue manifesto pledge that will then be used against them at election time.
It was about seeing who'd do what.
The is it - isn't it a confidence vote just showed up the cock up in a brothel ineptitude. The scenes in the lobbies just shows up further how nasty some of them are, and hopefully has longer lasting sanctions to come. It's all icing on the cake.
May I’d abroad. I can imagine her being canvassed as a continuity PM 😉
Braverman to cosplay Howe. That speech in full. Worth a read. You don’t bring down a government very often.
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1990/nov/13/personal-statement
Yup Johnson is on holiday (again) on the Carribbean, not sure which donor paid for it tho
He needs to get back jogging if he's still hoping for a bit of a comeback.
https://twitter.com/IamHappyToast/status/1582993797901713409
I am not in favour of a GE just now, I honestly think the tories need to do their winter of discontent as it will keep them out a lot longer, the voting public are not that switched on so will remember who was in charge when their life went tits up and lets face it the worst is still to come irrespective of who is in. The only fly in that ointment is how much more damage can they inflict on the country in the meantime.
It tends to happen with all ex leaders
He was the same as leader though. Anyway, there’s another thread for that. I’ll shut up. I was just pointing out his lack of a vote is unlikely to do with having “a small amount of integrity”… he has none.
Does feel like we're back to that BJ denial phase that the PM must go and we have to sit out another month that everyone knows the ending of.
Very refreshing to hear a politician (of any brand) speaking so openly:
Listen carefully to his words though. He's angry about
1. The damage done to the Party
2. The fact he never had a cabinet job
3. The fact ERG people did
4. Tory MPs are worried about losing their jobs.
He only adds at the last moment that he's worried about constituents. Even now, all he's actually worried about is his £85k/year with all expenses paid and subsidised meals gravy train hitting the buffers.
Just another bitter jealous self-serving Tory.
For Liz it must be like queuing for two hours for an Alton Towers ride that lasts about 15 seconds of screaming and vomit.
dazh
It does have consequences. If you plot a graph of the UK national debt vs GDP growth you’ll see that periods where the govt runs a surplus or lower deficits (ie the debt is being paid down) correspond to periods where we have a recession.
This all sounds very like religious dogma to me.
By that I mean it's written in a book that defines good and evil and self serving/fulfilling rules.
A recession is simply defined as 2 successive quarters when GDP doesn't grow... and that is to use a religious type term "evil" whilst increasing GDP is "good" and then everything else has to fit into that dogma.
Just to illustrate that take Singapore where the population is set to drop fairly dramatically (lets say 10% for illustration) over the next decade.
(also reducing the ratio of those that are productive) - following this dogma of "the great and mighty GDP" Singapore will be increasingly poorer by this measure if its GDP stays the same whilst the GDP/capita increases by 10%.
To look at this from the other side of the coin then this belief of the more you spend the better off you are ultimately means just increasing populations is the simplest lever to increase GDP regardless of how poor the quality of life of that population is.
What this seems to miss is the natural resources are finite. I'm including food not only iron, osmium or whatever here... some are finite over a period of time (food) and others finite in a strict sense (minerals).
If we are instead looking at services then why would anyone in a global and increasingly remote work economy then employ someone from the UK for something where no physical presence is required like a remote support or remote project manager etc??
From my simplistic point of view we are simply borrowing to spend... increasingly with no prospect of paying back the debt in terms of global currency in the longer term.
It wasn’t particularly about Labour winning the vote
It wasn't about winning the vote at all. It was a total trap to force conservative MPs to vote against the will of their constituents on a very emotive, yet also pointless vote, or vote against Liz/The Gov. and risk losing the whip. The ejection of those 39 MPs from the Tory party would be a massive score for Labour. It was a no win situation.
However the gov. may have managed to scrape out of it by saying at the (very) last second it wasn't a whipped vote, then proceeding to create basically a human corridor straight into the against vote in the lobby for conservatives. A minor breach of house rules but lets them get away with no sanctions for MPs as it wasn't a VOC after all... we shall see.
Listen carefully to his words though. He’s angry about
1. The damage done to the Party
2. The fact he never had a cabinet job
3. The fact ERG people did
4. Tory MPs are worried about losing their jobs.He only adds at the last moment that he’s worried about constituents. Even now, all he’s actually worried about is his £85k/year with all expenses paid and subsidised meals gravy train hitting the buffers.
Just another bitter jealous self-serving Tory.
There's got to be easier ways of earning £85k, it's a lot, but if you're clever enough you could probably have an easier time earning it by studying engineering, medicine or law at uni and having a straightforward career in any of those. So like engineering/medicine/law they probably do go into it for a mix of enjoying politics and wanting to make a difference. So like any other employee / company you'd be absolutely livid if the career you'd worked hard at was being systematically demolished by the incompetence of a new manager.
I've zero sympathy for the front bench, the ERG and those who got us into this mess.
I've equally got less time for the 6th form politics of Momentum on the Labour side or the SNP.
all he’s actually worried about is his £85k/year with all expenses paid and subsidised meals gravy train hitting the buffers.
He's already said he's not standing at the next election, so that bits not true, even if the rest is.
Listen carefully to his words though. He’s angry about
1. The damage done to the Party
2. The fact he never had a cabinet job
3. The fact ERG people did
4. Tory MPs are worried about losing their jobs.He only adds at the last moment that he’s worried about constituents. Even now, all he’s actually worried about is his £85k/year with all expenses paid and subsidised meals gravy train hitting the buffers.
Just another bitter jealous self-serving Tory.
That's exactly what I thought when I was listening to it. He seemed worried about the Tory party not the UK.
However, to be fair to him, he is standing down at the end of this term.
Is there perhaps a free Monarch we can import from a small European country to take over? That's (mostly) worked before. Worth a shot?
We all just need to be patient. If we can put up with this nonsense for another 16 days it’ll be November 5th and I get the feeling that the country might be up for a little historical reinactment.
it’ll be November 5th and I get the feeling that the country might be up for a little historical reinactment.
In that we all get caught, hung, drawn and quartered?? I'll opt for the V for Vendetta version thanks 😉
Hasn't she got to hang on until Oct. 31st to get her pension entitlement?
I reckon Starmer will be PM by Christmas.
Should a decision be made to have an ‘immediate’ election, what is the shortest amount of time that is required? And, what is a reasonably practical ‘shortest’ time?
It wasn’t particularly about Labour winning the vote, that would have been a bonus – as said elsewhere it pushed the tory MP’s into either voting against their leadership in a confidence motion, or against a divisive local issue manifesto pledge that will then be used against them at election time.
This. Clever bit of manoeuvring from Labour.
what is a reasonably practical ‘shortest’ time?
25 days I believe
Listen carefully to his words though. He’s angry about
1. The damage done to the Party
2. The fact he never had a cabinet job
3. The fact ERG people did
4. Tory MPs are worried about losing their jobs.He only adds at the last moment that he’s worried about constituents. Even now, all he’s actually worried about is his £85k/year with all expenses paid and subsidised meals gravy train hitting the buffers.
Just another bitter jealous self-serving Tory.
My thoughts exactly - couldn't give 2 F's about the country first & foremost, more bothered about "oh woe is me". I'd be spitting teeth if I was one of his constituents. Only added it in at the end as an afterthought it seems. Disgraceful.
Should a decision be made to have an ‘immediate’ election, what is the shortest amount of time that is required? And, what is a reasonably practical ‘shortest’ time?
I think this whole saga has shown that we need a constitution.
An American friend pointed out that it's still better than their system of two frantic years then 2 lame duck years. But we definitely need some mechanism by which we can call a GE without the ruling party having to concede first. The FTP act has effectively just made the opposition beholden to the government calling elections when it thinks it can win them, which is what it was meant to avoid.
Studying medicine/law/engineering and practicing it “easier than being an MP”?
Hmmm let me think about that for while…
It looks pretty easy to be a useless MP. And it’s probably hard to be a good one. Like most jobs then?
what is a reasonably practical ‘shortest’ time?
25 days I believe
Cheers ernie
I now know what I’d like for Christmas 😀
Listen carefully to his words though. He’s angry about
TBF to him he's being asked a very specific question about the vote in the Commons last night and whether he'll support the leader.
It's all feeling like the next series of Blackadder really.
TBF to him he’s being asked a very specific question about the vote in the Commons last night and whether he’ll support the leader.
+1
and I particularly like this quote
'There's nothing as ex as an ex MP'
Studying medicine/law/engineering and practicing it “easier than being an MP”?
Hmmm let me think about that for while…
It looks pretty easy to be a useless MP. And it’s probably hard to be a good one. Like most jobs then?
Like most arguments along these lines, if that that easy and well paid, why are you complaining about it and not an MP.
Politicians are always banging on about how much more money they could earn in a 'proper job' in the private sector, so none of them should be scared of losing their seat! 🙂
I think this whole saga has shown that we need a constitution.
We do have one. Its just not designed for this mix of incompetence and malice.
The FTP act has effectively just made the opposition beholden to the government calling elections when it thinks it can win them
The FTP act has been repealed and never meant anything. It was created purely as a sop to the Libdems to make them feel the coalition was going to work. It could always be overruled at the whim of government assuming their MPs were in favour.
There’s got to be easier ways of earning £85k, it’s a lot, but if you’re clever enough you could probably have an easier time earning it by studying engineering, medicine or law at uni and having a straightforward career in any of those.
Its not 85k though is it... the £85k is just the chump change compared to what they can be paid for their day job.
Like most arguments along these lines, if that that easy and well paid, why are you complaining about it and not an MP.
Because it is a position that requires contacts and opportunity, and has sweet **** all to do with competence and intellect, as has been laid bare for the past few years. Although I suspect it has largely always been the case, the exposure of the corruption, arrogance and stupidity of those in office has become very clear.
Studying medicine/law/engineering and practicing it “easier than being an MP”?
Hmmm let me think about that for while…
It looks pretty easy to be a useless MP. And it’s probably hard to be a good one. Like most jobs then?
taking home an 85k package isn't particularly difficult in IT. most senior devs in the south east are on that kind of money, London would be more. I would definitely consider that job a tonne easier than being an MP.
Like most arguments along these lines, if that that easy and well paid, why are you complaining about it and not an Doctor/lawyer/engineer.
Etc etc
Because it is a position that requires contacts and opportunity, and has sweet **** all to do with competence and intellect, as has been laid bare for the past few years. Although I suspect it has largely always been the case, the exposure of the corruption, arrogance and stupidity of those in office has become very clear.
Either that or it involves joining your local Labour* party group, attending meetings, door knocking, working in the parish council, district council, then if you're the best person in the area in the party getting nominated for the MP elections? Or going and working in head office on campaigns until you're viewed as the most loyal/competent and get dropped into a safe seat.
*other rosettes are available
Etc etc
Maybe I am 😉
Just another bitter jealous self-serving Tory.
To be fair, they played the full interview on R4 and he went on to say how appalling it was for the country. Strikes me as one of the "Dominic Grieve decent politician, but don't agree with his politics" mould. Whether you agree with a party or not, I think one (and the country) is owed decent and competent leadership. I expect he'd agree with that point. It's called being an adult.
What the hell do we do?
Am I the only one hovering on this page right now...?
.
[ EDIT: not supposed to be clickbait, sorry... that's a link to join the Labour party... seriously considering it this morning ]
Because it is a position that requires contacts and opportunity, and has sweet **** all to do with competence and intellect
Or more accurately there is a major gap between the competence needed to get the job (buttering up the local party members/making connections and so on) vs what is needed to do the job.
Bit like selecting footballers based purely on performance at rugby. There is some carry over but also massive gaps.
Thats before getting into the massive difference between an MP and minister.
Or more accurately there is a major gap between the competence needed to get the job (buttering up the local party members/making connections and so on) vs what is needed to do the job.
Bit like selecting footballers based purely on performance at rugby. There is some carry over but also massive gaps.
I'd agree with that.
You'd hope at least that the first barrier to entry is a desire to make changes/help people/do some good.
THEN the second hurdle is being a good politician and getting nominated/elected. But that is also a necessary qualification for achieving anything once in office. If you just want to shout on the internet about "typical tory scum" in reference to someone who until yesterday you'd never even heard of, you'd probably not do very well when your ideas get challenged on doorsteps (see: Gordon Brown and the "bigoted woman").
We're not going to see an election.
Next ofthe party to go will be (has to be) the health secretary, replaced with another Boris cabinet member (Hunt & Shapps already in place), poss javid (??)then truss will go and instead of another leadership battle will prob see johnson reinstalled as decided by senior tories...
Id love to see an election but every time I think labour should take over they come out with a ridicluous pre written soundbite that makes me realise it'll just be more of the same, detached wealthy people running the country without a clue what we're actually going through...
And I don't think Labour are actually taking advantage of the implosion of the Tories, they seem to be sitting there asking inane questions and making jokes, don't see a lot of action
If you just want to shout on the internet about “typical tory scum” in reference to someone who until yesterday you’d never even heard of
Is that a reference to me calling Coffey scum for her utter disregard towards NHS staff? I stand by that, and I know who she is. She is dangerous scum who should not be allowed anywhere near our public services.
it’ll just be more of the same
You really believe that? Can we put you in a room with Angela Rayner for an hour and see if you still do at the end of it? Or any of the Labour front bench.
don’t see a lot of action
They. Are. Not. The. Government.
Truss tried this line again at PMQs (Johnson used it all the time)... pointing out that the opposition aren't "getting anything done"... they can't... they don't have enough MPs... the voters have to change that before they get their chance to change things.
And I don’t think Labour are actually taking advantage of the implosion of the Tories, they seem to be sitting there asking inane questions and making jokes, don’t see a lot of action
What "action" do you expect though?
Is that a reference to me calling Coffey scum for her utter disregard towards NHS staff? I stand by that, and I know who she is. She is dangerous scum who should not be allowed anywhere near our public services.
It was in reference to the pile on of Charles Walker.
We've all heard enough about Coffey to draw the same conclusion..........
It was in reference to the pile on of Charles Walker.
Ah, ok.
I'm politically a mile from Walker... but he wasn't speaking in his own interests... he's already called an end to his own political career... he was speaking up for his party and his country... both of which the current Tories are wrecking.
What “action” do you expect though?
During this present crises I would expect to see the leader of the Opposition on the telly every time I switch it on.
After Jeremy H unt gave his statement to parliament I saw the leader of the LibDems, the leader of the SNP, and the leader of the Greens, all being interviewed, no sign of the leader of the Official Opposition though.
Presumably he was busy with other stuff - he left it to his Shadow Chancellor to deal with the issues raised. Probably wise mind, he hardly inspires and energizes people when he speaks.
I'm not sure that I have seen him give one single interview during the last week.
And I don’t think Labour are actually taking advantage of the implosion of the Tories, they seem to be sitting there asking inane questions and making jokes, don’t see a lot of action
sun tzu had something to say about that...
don’t see a lot of action
they don't need to. Better to remain quiet and let them self destroy. Whatever you can and will be used as evidence against you.
I know people like to revel in the destruction of the conservatives but this has been bad for democracy and will continue to be until the adults get back in charge of the Tories.
he left it to his Shadow Chancellor to deal with the issues raised
Good. Starmer doesn't have what is needed to win a presidential style election. Labour need to present the whole front bench as ready for office. I think he finally gets this... at PMQs, when talking about Truss, he was very careful to claim that his team were ready to step in and form the government, rather that referring to himself as regards taking over her post. More of this approach please. A shadow cabinet getting in front of the public and showing they are ready. At this point, no one cares who the spokesperson for the LibDems or the Green Party are that are shadowing Hunt in his position... but they absolutely need to see and hear from the person who could be in his (current) job after an election.
it’ll just be more of the same
Anyone who can say that really has no idea what's at stake here.
Tories want small government. That means you're responsible for yourself; if you get into trouble then tough, it's your own fault. They want to do intervene as little as possible in the running of the country and let whatever happens happen.
Labour want big government, which means they want to provide the facilities to help people who need it, and they want to try to manage the country so that we can all be better off.
That is a pretty huge difference, don't you think? Aside from the fact that the set of Tories we've had since 2015 are absolutely incompetent on a scale not seen for a very long time. And now they are not even able to do anything at all, and that fact is really damaging our country.
Tories want small government.
Nah this is buying into their propaganda. They want a big government in the areas they care about but a small government elsewhere.
The problem with sitting back watching the destruction is the vote could still be split between labour and the lib dems, possibly giving the tories a route back in...
as Ernie says they should be shouting from the rooftop what the alternative would be, what they would do, how they would help the UK, I have no idea what labour would do, all the average voter would have in their ears are the comments of the tories saying how bad it would be under labour, why are they not shutting this crap down, leaving no room for Truss and co to try and blame labour for everything?
I'm also surprised theres been no protests specifically against this absolute s***show. Whats changed in the UK since the Poll Tax riots, where people were so angry, that people now just sit indoors getting angry at their computers? Cant help thinking if this was France we'd have already seem riots
I have no idea what labour would do
Did you pay attention during the week of the Labour Party conference? It's about the only time when a breadth of policies from an opposition party can get air time. The rest of the time, the media's focus stays on the government's policies and actions, because they are the ones affecting change (for the better or worse).
as Ernie says they should be shouting from the rooftop what the alternative would be, what they would do, how they would help the UK, I have no idea what labour would do, all the average voter would have in their ears are the comments of the tories saying how bad it would be under labour, why are they not shutting this crap down, leaving no room for Truss and co to try and blame labour for everything?
A bit like saying; 'we'd cap energy prices for 6 months funded by a windfall tax', which forced the government into introducing a knee jerk unfunded energy cap for 2 years, which crashed the economy so they had to U-turn it to 6 months, but still unfunded?
That kind of sensible setting out of policy?
I’m also surprised theres been no protests specifically against this absolute s***show. Whats changed in the UK since the Poll Tax riots, where people were so angry, that people now just sit indoors getting angry at their computers? Cant help thinking if this was France we’d have already seem riots
The fact that, as you're demonstrating, unless you actually pay attention to the details of politics most of the news outlets only report on the government (and mostly with a very positive spin).
Outside of conferences and GE campaigns with manifestos there's very little airtime given to the opposition.
No one's leaking the who said what of shadow cabinet meetings unless Starmer's got a beer in his hand.
remoaners eh....
https://twitter.com/pacarnahan/status/1582997257728950272?s=20&t=HL9aQ5g8l-7ibG-uBY1aXg
Starmer was on tv this morning, a minister was on GB News (I showered after) setting out policies earlier too...
They are doing what they need to imo.
If love to be wrong but they never call an electron
Are you positron?
They are doing what they need to imo.
Starmer speaking at TUC today as well... that should make most news bulletins this evening (unless the Tories create enough fresh chaos to take up all the air time). Anyway... we do have a thread for people to moan about Starmer "doing nothing" despite the evidence.
then if you’re the best person in the area
Depends what you mean by "best", doesn't it.
.
Graham Brady has just been seen entering No.10. Let's see if he comes out carrying a roll of carpet.
Graham Brady has just turned up at number ten
Looks like the gig is up
Bless good old Mad Nad with her continued campaign
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1583033679990861825?s=46&t=FgbGl62TB3kGiZ33dcWPiQ
Brady is on the way to No10
Beaten to it by @binners , I was just about to say that Nadine is desperate for the return of Our Saviour Boris...
Where she likes to ape Thatcher photo ops, will she do the teary-eyed departure from No10?
The BBC's current headline is "Starmer speech gives guide of what he would do as PM".
Can't get much more direct that that really?