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Some of you lot must be useless at interviewing people, "It says here that you robbed the last place you work at, at gunpoint. Fortunately for you I don't believe in "predicting the future" and I firmly believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. So lets give you a shot and see how you turn out. Oh by the way, can you remove the ski mask so we can get your work ID picture taken?"
Name a single thing any tory has ever done that improves the life of the less well off.
Lost an election.
Yes that makes sense – but they ought to know a loan based programme of support is not going to go down that well!
Normal negotiation though. Start low and then work your way up to a better offer. You never know you might get lucky with the dodgy offer and if they dont bite that, of course, is where the "source" approach comes in useful. It wasnt you whose name is against it but an anonymous "source" so you can try again without reprecussions.
So I'm going with the new offer doing the rounds - paid back with pretend taxation. (Meaning not paid back.)
All good by me for the time-being as that will be done with Q/E or whatever.
It validates MMT yet again offering a lens for prescriptive decisions that can be used in government. And that you don't need taxation or borrowing to come first.
The Tories beat Labour in my opinion with their understanding of this. Sure they will scream about tax rises in the future but that will only ever be to control money supply.
All you need to know when the private sector fails the government can plug the gap with new money creation to a point.
It's not all the answers but it's an immediate fix.
Still want more details though.
Normal negotiation though. Start low and then work your way up to a better offer.
Right-o.
I’m not entirely sure what the difference is here between “cancelling” and “disagreeing,” can someone help me out?
I would say that attempts at backseat moderation and relentless personal attacks are a better fit for "cancelling" than "disagreeing".
https://twitter.com/BenPBradshaw/status/1566703707542126594?s=20&t=A7a2tnt1PuYP52lmm8-G_w
Well really?
I'm not sure I agree with the 'give lizz a chance' ultra far-right crowd on here.
She might be less diabolical or more diabolical than sunak /Johnson /insert other diabolical tory here... But it will still be utterly diabolical and a complete shit show and we all know it.
attempts at backseat moderation and relentless personal attacks
Oh, is this just about some people (including myself) moaning when the same few posters seem to want make every single political thread the same? Report our moaning if you like. All a bit handbags at dawn claiming that anyone is trying to cancel anything though.
rone
Full Member
It validates MMT yet again
It only validates MMT if you ignore the inflation we are also facing. Which is just as big a problem.
The further fall in the pound that’s likely it come doesn’t invalidate MMT, it’s a just a reminder that you can’t create money without negative effects unless you also pull some other strings…
Have you noticed inflation? It doesn’t validate MMT at all.
Don't be ridiculous.
MMT is a description of the way government spending works - and too much government spending can be controlled by taxation.
We havent had too much government spending - hence everyrone is skint and the economoy is shrinking.
We have inflation on the supply side. This can't be fixed by MMT based tools directly but MMT identifies the issue.
Inflation is much much more than too much money chasing too few goods. In fact look at the "too few goods part" of the ditty.
'Cancelling': insults, ridicule, ad homs, name-calling, moans
'Disagreeing': alternative evidence, arguments, analysis, comment
Not that difficult, is it?
The further fall in the pound that’s likely it come doesn’t invalidate MMT, it’s a just a reminder that you can’t create money without negative effects unless you also pull some other strings…
The fall in the pound is directly controlled by the buying and selling within the market place. There are massive issues at play here that you can't really extrapolate - certainly not government spending in isolation so simply.
That £ has been falling way way before government did big spend via Q/E.
America spends plenty of government money too.
If moaning is cancelling… forums are dead.
America spends plenty of government money too.
The dollar is quite different to all other currencies.
Are comments getting deleted? If not, I can't see how anyone could be accused of cancelling anything (other than maybe the usual suspects cancelling my enjoyment of yet another would-be interesting thread)
I would say that attempts at backseat moderation and relentless personal attacks are a better fit for “cancelling” than “disagreeing”.
We don't need backseat moderation as we have frontseat moderation. The moderation team will also deal with any "relentless personal attacks" you care to report.
‘Cancelling’: insults, ridicule, ad homs, name-calling, moans
‘Disagreeing’: alternative evidence, arguments, analysis, comment
It's funny, if it were the other way round they'd probably be screaming "snowflake" or "triggered" right about now.
I’m not sure I agree with the ‘give lizz a chance’ ultra far-right crowd on here.
There's no point taking a loaded position before she enacts anything - you will have the ammo you need when she's actually done something.
I'm pretty far on the left.
…they are clearly hoping that Truss will prove to be worse than Johnson.
Apparently it will be good for Labour.
But isn’t “least worst option” the whole basis of how political parties, policy, legislation etc. currently gets voted upon? Certainly since around the time, or just before the whole Brexit campaign started, rather than appealing to voters based on policy and merit, politicians from all sides seem to have fallen into a “at least we’re not as bad as those lot” style of campaigning.
There’s no point taking a loaded position before she enacts anything
I’m pretty far on the left.
I assumed the "far-right" tag was a tongue in cheek joke.
Our new PM is not a clean slate... she has been in government longer than anyone... she was part of the cabinet delivering all "this" going on around us now. The MPs that will vote with her from here on are already known, we've seen what they are like. By all means "wait and see", but, personally, I've seen enough already and want her, and as many of her MPs as possible, out asap. She'll get no benefit of the doubt from me. May her time as PM be cut as short as possible.
I haven’t compared her voting record to anyone else’s and I’ve no idea whether this information is being presented in any kind of a biased fashion but I found this to be interesting:
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24941/elizabeth_truss/south_west_norfolk/votes
And ultimately I would say in my opinion her voting record is toxic to the larger part of society. Possibly says as much about me, but hey ho…
you will have the ammo you need when she’s actually done something.
Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory. It's not particularly smart and is unlikely to impress anyone.
In contrast having a focused analytical attack on specific policies whilst offering credible carefully thought out counterproposals is likely to be more productive.
Furthermore as the saying goes that even a broken clock is correct twice a day there is no guarantee that everything a Tory politician does is always wrong on every occasion. EG not everything Johnson did during the pandemic was wrong, thankfully.
No lack of demand for Gilts in £££
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1567096762845876224?s=20&t=A7a2tnt1PuYP52lmm8-G_w
It's not borrowing as such - but hey can't have everything correct.
Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory. It’s not particularly smart and is unlikely to impress anyone.
Impress? You think people are insulting Liz to try and impress you? 🙂
Being critical of a new PM on day one isn't childish tribalism, it's a reflection of her shit record as a minister.
But isn’t “least worst option” the whole basis of how political parties, policy, legislation etc. currently gets voted upon?
Is it time for DNA's 'lizard' theory again?
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/162557-it-comes-from-a-very-ancient-democracy-you-see-you
On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in.
there is no guarantee that everything a Tory politician does is always wrong on every occasion.
A ringing endorsement, indeed.
You think people are insulting Liz to try and impress you?
Not at all. I assume that people who are consumed by hatred of Tories and their supporters would like to win over people to their way of thinking, so presumably the intention is to impress someone. Otherwise what is the point - group self-help support?
Not at all.
Who, then, do you think they're trying to impress?
Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory.
She does not hide what she is and what she believes in. Her and her far right mates wrote it down in a book.
She wants to take away peoples rights, reduce taxes(services), and give more money to the rich people.
Besides, I am quite entitled to attack any Tory, they are constantly attacking me and this Country, with this shit show they have created.
Who, then, do you think they’re trying to impress?
I used the word "anyone".
Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory.
You make it sound as if she’s just burst out of an egg, pure, unsullied, and ready to start a new dawn. We’ve seen her in government for, what, 12 10 years?
Lots of work for her to do if she wants to change our already formed view of her, and her government’s record… and by “our”, I don’t mean mine, I mean the public…
https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1567107622163079170?s=21
https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1566753904842477569?s=21
We’ve seen her in government for, what, 12 years?
Which is why I have repeatedly said that for me her replacing Johnson represents a serious setback.
I don't however see the point of attack her for what she has done in the last 12 years. She is now PM, she should be criticised for she does now as PM.
Or do you think Labour should be attacking and criticising her for what she did say 6 years ago?
Do you think that is what voters want to hear?
@mildred Exactly ...
She was a lib dem.. Now a tory.
She was pro-remain now pro scorched earth brexiteer.
For anyone to suggest she has even a modicum of integrity is utterly ludicrous.
I used the word “anyone”.
You said it wouldn't impress anyone - the question was who do you think they were trying to impress.
So latest supports are suggesting an 18 month freeze in household bills at around £2500 (still too high BTW) paid for by general 'taxation' (ie money printing) with an as yet unannounced solution for businesses (probably a grant/loan scheme similar to covid). If this is correct, then considering their reaction to the furlough scheme and wider covid support then the right wing of the tory party will be spitting feathers at Truss's 'socialist' approach.
I say again. Right wing idealogue my arse. Truss is a populist pragmatist (and probably a secret MMTer), just like Johnson before her. Faced with the first real challenge to her position, she has thrown out almost everything she said in the leadership campaign and opted to crank up the printing presses.
I don’t however see the point of attack her for what she has done in the last 12 years.
Er... we absolutely can form an opinion on her based on what she has said and done... she's not new here.
opted to crank up the printing presses.
Plenty of those who back her will be happy with that... as long as the money goes to the right people (and fossil fuel companies are included in that). If she taxes that money back out of fossil fuels (rather than doing all she can to hamper on shore renewables, as she has done while in office, and promised to do while campaigning for the top job)... then she might have a fight on her hands with her more right wing MPs and others she needs to keep the support of.
Latest Westminster voting intention (31 Aug - 1 Sep)
There have been 3 more opinion polls since that one, one of them (1-2 sept) gave Labour a 4% lead. I wouldn't at this stage get too excited.
Public figures aspire to be just that. Humour and ridicule in their direction is fair game in the long tradition of court jesters, cartoonists etc. I've only ever voted Labour but will will poke fun at them as I want them to be better than the tories, but at the moment.....
There have been 3 more opinion polls since that one, one of them (1-2 sept) gave Labour a 4% lead. I wouldn’t at this stage get too excited.
Could you link to them?
Some roundups taking all the polls into account...
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_rrose_20220901.html
The central prediction of Electoral Calculus analysis is that Labour can win at least a hundred more seats than the Conservatives. On present showing, there is even a one in five chance that Labour could top Labour's record win of 418 seats in 1997. As long as Labour is the largest party in the House of Commons, and there is a 88 percent probability on current figures, Keir Starmer is in position to take the key to Downing Street from Liz Truss in two years time.
Boris Johnson leaves the new Prime Minister a Janus-faced legacy. Looking backwards, Liz Truss inherits a comfortable parliamentary majority based on 365 Conservative seats won at the 2019 general election. However, looking forward toward the next election the Conservatives face a predicted loss of 143 seats if a ballot were held now. Moreover, there is a 30pc chance of doing worse than in 1997, when a tired Tory government won only 165 seats, thereby suffering its worst electoral defeat in modern political history.
https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/09/britainpredicts/
[ found the 4% one... it was Opinium, and included in that newstatesman collation and analysis ]
She has her hands full if she wants to convince voters to back her and the ongoing Conservative government.
Another recent poll... in case you're suggesting the one I posted is an outlier...
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1566726690050646018?s=20&t=oKJE9W1k-sML-EQHrnBphw
She was a lib dem.. Now a tory.
She was pro-remain now pro scorched earth brexiteer.
For anyone to suggest she has even a modicum of integrity is utterly ludicrous.
Which is why it is hard to predict with any certainty how she will behave.
Personally I wouldn't give her the benefit of the doubt - she is simply too right-wing for me, I would rather Johnson remained PM than her.
However we are where we are and she is now PM, we will know soon enough what sort of PM she is likely to be. Her past, for the reasons mentioned above, doesn't paint any certainty.
Ernie.
What did Johnson get right?
I find your defense of him quite astonishing. He is personally responsible for the single most damaging event in modern uk history. Hard bre it and destoying our relationships with other countries .
Or do you think Labour should be attacking and criticising her for what she did say 6 years ago?
Do you think that is what voters want to hear?
It probably is.
We still can't get behind Labour because of Blair's involvement in the Iraq war (2003). We can't support the Lib Dems because of tuition fees (2010) and, erm, because one of them ate a bacon sandwich once (2014). Six years ago is practically last week in populist politics.
Plus of course, it sells a lot of newspapers.
What did Johnson get right?
During the pandemic? Well for a start the stuff that he needed the support of Labour MPs because he couldn't get enough of his own MPs to support him.
Do you honestly think that everything Johnson did was always wrong? If so I can't see any basis for a sensible discussion.
Universal basic income.
Just saying 😉
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1567112410451828737?s=20&t=P9EGXWgpXPOUPqIfoaGtxA
No claw-back.
Centrists will now move to a different position on this - how will we fund it? What about taxing the Energy Producers? The debt is unsustainable. Etc.
They will forget about the screams they made about the cost of living crisis.
Labour have been blown out of the water.
How on earth was Johnson responsible for brexit? That was voted for by the British people.
So latest supports are suggesting an 18 month freeze in household bills at around £2500 (still too high BTW) paid for by general ‘taxation’ (ie money printing) with an as yet unannounced solution for businesses (probably a grant/loan scheme similar to covid). If this is correct, then considering their reaction to the furlough scheme and wider covid support then the right wing of the tory party will be spitting feathers at Truss’s ‘socialist’ approach.
With the £400 support takes it to the average cap now pre-October as I understand it.
Seems to me that they've managed to take the energy crisis and turn it into a way of handing vast sums of money to energy providers? Just like how covid became a way of funneling cash and contracts to their mates.
The dollar is quite different to all other currencies.
Yeah - but they still operate through the same lens.
Yes basically. Too little too late and directed money into the hands of the well off not thise who need it most. We have one of the highest death rates in the world because Johnson did not take action early enough
He got none of the big calls right.
I think your lexiteer tendancies blind you to the huge harm johnson did
We don’t need backseat moderation as we have frontseat moderation. The moderation team will also deal with any “relentless personal attacks” you care to report.
I said "attempts at backseat moderation". I didn't say we needed it.
The moderators' view of personal attacks is clearly not the same as mine.
daz - latest reports I've seen refer to a freeze based on the current cap and lasting for c18 months.
Something similar to be offered to SMEs but a lack of detail yet.
As for how it will be funded, the vast majority don't care - at present; all they want is help now.
There is a clear message for Starmer and Labour - go big or go home.
Johnson is responsible for the scorched earth brexit and destroying telationships with other countries
He could have made it much less harmful. We could be in a sitation like Switzerland or Norway. Instead we are in a huge mess. Johnsons fault
Seems to me that they’ve managed to take the energy crisis and turn it into a way of handing vast sums of money to energy providers?
Looks like it. That'll have to change... much of that money needs to be recovered from the companies making vast profits out of the current energy crisis. Those profits needed to be heavily taxed. The public won't want to see money leaving that way, only to be then told we can't afford the services we need, and need to just soak up further falls in real income levels. Especially as if it's not recovered it'll mean real income levels falling even faster.
Johnson is responsible for the scorched earth brexit and destroying telationships with other countries
not a boris, conservative or anything supporter
but he was given a pile of manure and asked to bake a cake
Which is why it is hard to predict
It really isn't hard to predict, it may aswell already be written.
As for how it will be funded, the vast majority don’t care – at present; all they want is help now.
This x 100.
The argument will change tact - I've already seen it in the Guardian - borrowing, Mumbo Jumbo Tax payer, blah, Reeves, Blah.
What happened to the CoLC?
She's pretty much done what I expected her to do - because the precedent is there.
People need to understand - money is circular - it goes from the government to the private sector and into you pockets,and then destroyed. The Tory government are turning extra supplies on because there is a shortage of spending power.
Sure they absolutely should tax the energy companies but this is not the first part of the problem to solve. And let's face it for the all the state intervention here the Tories will still be Tories.
Looks like it. That’ll have to change… much of that money needs to be recovered from the companies making vast profits out of the current energy crisis. Those profits needed to be heavily taxed.
But that is not in anyway an urgent problem to solve.
not the first part of the problem to solve.
Correct. Which why they haven't yet. They will have to. Otherwise the result is most of us being poorer, facing higher inflation and higher interest rates. So what does she do next...? She has to move to taxing those profits unless she's happy to make most people worse off still.
Universal basic income.
🙏🏼
Correct. Which why they haven’t yet. They will have to. Otherwise the result is most of us being poorer, facing higher inflation and higher interest rates. So what does she do next…? She has to move to taxing those profits unless she’s happy to make most people worse off still.
We both probably know there are a much bigger problems here for sure. But for the time-being lets see how the help works its way through the system.
I'm very keen to see what happens with the BoE.
Universal basic income.
No. Everything about this becomes a way of keeping the wretched market place for jobs ticking over for the benefit of the companies by government. You will get low wages, max profit and there will be no fix for jobs that the state demands.
but he was given a pile of manure and asked to bake a cake
he shit the bed. it was his to clear up...
Good to see she’s carrying on Johnson’s tradition of tardy timekeeping
he shit the bed. it was his to clear up…
Nicely put.
You will get low wages, max profit and there will be no fix for jobs that the state demands.
Disagree strongly. Let's not do that here though. Your fault @redthunder 😉
alan1977
Free Memberbut he was given a pile of manure and asked to bake a cake
He brought in a pile of manure and told everyone he'd already baked a cake.
How on earth was Johnson responsible for brexit? That was voted for by the British people.
You've had six years to understand concepts like "representative democracy," and "non-binding referendum," if you haven't got it by now then it's a waste of everyone's time trying to explain it yet again.
The moderators’ view of personal attacks is clearly not the same as mine.
How many have you reported?
People need to understand – money is circular – it goes from the government to the private sector and into you pockets,and then destroyed.
Well, a part from the billions and trillions syphoned off into to corporate and multinational accounts. Not a lot of destruction going on there, just accumulation.
IDS in an unusual eruption of self-awareness for a Tory MP, has just turned a cabinet position because he ‘didn’t think he could add value to the position’
If that alien piece of honesty takes hold among the gaggle of muppets being tipped for senior roles then there’s no way on earth she’ll be able to form a government
Anyway… Talkie the Toaster is nearly in Downing Street so brace yourself for some stirring and inspiring oratory
Universal basic income.
Love the general idea but unfortunately, parasitic landlords will just put up rents to absorb it. Massive council house building is what's needed to go with it. Plus, if people aren't being exploited through housing they start to become invested in their surroundings. More people giving a toss about the environment must be a good thing.
parasitic landlords will just put up rents to absorb it
Not an insurmountable problem... I mean, that's already a problem that needs addressing, and can be addressed... see the Scottish Gov freezing rent prices for this winter.
A proper council house building programme should be part of any response though. I can't see Truss announcing that.
Labour have been blown out of the water.
It was always going to happen. They probably just handed Truss the next election. Nice one Keir! 🙄
I wonder what happens with those households who've recently signed up to fixed energy deals that will be a lot higher than this new proposal.
Are they stuck in those deals?
They probably just handed Truss the next election.
- gov has no response
- Labour announce policy
- gov tries to match policy far too late, while also funnelling money upwards
- Labour points out where that money is going
- gov makes token effort to reduce money going upwards far too late
- more of the public can see we'd be better off with Labour running things
x repeat
dazh
Full Member
Labour have been blown out of the water.It was always going to happen. They probably just handed Truss the next election. Nice one Keir! 🙄
For a few weeks, lots more problems to come. Though I think most are savvy to the fact starmer has been shouting for a price freeze. So it's more the blinking obvious thing to do rather than blowing labour out the water.
Plus government protecting us from energy weaponization and a war time cost is just one of it's basic responsibilities, not an extraordinary action.
Probably looking at may 2024 for the election anyhow, this will be long forgot about by then.
Are they stuck in those deals?
Martin Lewis mentioned this, they have a 2 week cooling off period, so some can cancel.
I wonder what happens with those households who’ve recently signed up to fixed energy deals that will be a lot higher than this new proposal.
Are they stuck in those deals?
Good question. And what of the 'Don't Pay' movement? I was looking forward to boycotting my bills from October.
gobuchul
Free Member
Are they stuck in those deals?Martin Lewis mentioned this, they have a 2 week cooling off period, so some can cancel.
Most will have a 100/150 quid exit clause too, so while a pain in the arse, they'll get out of them.
So ernie. Specifically what did johnson get right during the critical part of the pandemic?
Lockdown. Too late this meant it had to go on longer and many folk died
Test and trace. Spent billions on a useless set up ignoring existing expertise in local councils for ideological reasons
Furlough support. Massivly skewed towards the well off. So poorly done it was an open invitation to fraud.
Closing borders. Too late and reopened too early
Eat out to help out. Massive transmission risk
Large public gathereings. Allowed to go on far too long
Thats pretty much all the major decisions and everyone he got wrong
How on earth was Johnson responsible for brexit? That was voted for by the British people.
A minority of the British people. But he Got Brexit Done, didn't he? He's been trumpeting since we left - who else could we blame? 🙂
– more of the public can see we’d be better off with Labour running things
Until election day when they can't quite bring themselves to tick that red rose box. Or don't bother turning out at all.
Universal basic income.
Just saying 😉
👆
A minority of the British people.
Quite. But a minority slightly bigger than the minority of the British people who voted against it. Regardless, it's done. Most people have moved on.
Labour announce policy
– gov tries to match policy far too late,
How are they trying to match Labour's policy - I thought the energy price freeze being suggested is 3 times longer than Labour's 6 month freeze?
And why far too late - the next energy price increase isn't due for another 4 weeks?
Labour seem to have been wrong-footed on this particular policy. Although I guess Labour could probably make the case to voters that they offer fiscal responsibility as opposed to the Tories spendthrift tax and spend attitude, it might win voters over.
The absolutely biblical rain greeting Lizzie in Downing Street seems to have lent an appropriate Book of Revelations air to proceedings
Write your own metaphors kids