lighting electrics advice please....

You’re right.

The extra wires may be hidden in a junction box in the ceiling 

Yes, red/brown and blue/black.  The switching will be in other junction boxes in the loft.

EDIT - Beaten to it!

that was short and sweet, thank you very much chaps.

Yeah, all the gubbins for the double switch is up behind that plate there. You just have a switched live and neutral coming through.

Check it's definitely off before you start disconnecting it though.

yep, ill put the light on, then trip it, make sure its gone off, then switch off for good measure 😀

thanks

Easy enough, assuming the c.p.c is actually connected somewhere at the other end, which you need to definitely make sure it is as it’s a metal light fitting

Yep, check the earth is connected with a multimeter (either continuity back to the main earth with a fly lead or the slightly more dodgy but quicker method of checking you have 240v ish between the live red and the earth) as your new fitting is not double insulated.

The 3 way switching (two switches) can be dealt with either in the ceiling rose, or in your case, either a junction box in the ceiling or just within the actual switches themselves.

sorry, ive got a multimeter but dont know how to use it im afraid.

its a warden run residential place, so hopefully up to scratch on safety certificates i would hope?  or am i being naive 😀

thanks

or am i being naive

If it's anything like my dad's housing association semi sheltered spot, they go overboard on some things and ignore other maintenance for months and months...

yep, ill put the light on, then trip it, make sure its gone off, then switch off for good measure

No, you should test for dead.  Get yourself a non-contact voltage pen (and test it on a known live source before and after checking your work location) and ideally then use a multi-meter between the live and earth and the neutral an earth to double check for voltage.  I wired in a mains smoke alarm recently...I think I tested with a multi-meter before isolating and had 115v on the neutral (suspect an outside light or PIR is wet) or the other possibility (I can't remember) was it was 115v on the neutral after I had switched off the MCB, which would suggest the lighting ring has been connected to another circuit somehow.  (I did have a quick google and found a youtube sparky that shocked himself with 115v and it turned out a kitchen fitter had needed a permanent live (I think) for the boiler in the kitchen and didn't want to upgrade the existing 2 core cable from upstairs to a 3 core so wired in a live via a 3 pin plug from the kitchen ring!)

So I can't remember the exact detail but the point is, your lights can go off, but there can still be voltage if there are other unknown faults/bad workmanship.

(Edit - should you be doing anything like this in a warden assisted property?!)

If it isn't your place, should you be messing with it at all?

(Edit – should you be doing anything like this in a warden assisted property?!)

im not sure of the correct term really, i looked it up and its a 'retirement housing complex'.  its not 'warden controlled' as such, but theres. a manager that works there 4 days a week, office hours.  residents just need to be over 55 to apply, they dont specifically need assistance.  my mum was told she can do anything she likes to it as long as it either goes back how it was when she leaves, or the new occupant accepts it.  not sure how much difference that makes, if any.....

If it isn’t your place, should you be messing with it at all?

only because she's asked me if i can do it.  it seems simple enough with the expert advice on here, but id hate for there to be a problem with the wiring elsewhere that causes it to be unsafe, so from being confident to do it, im having second thoughts now.

i assume if she changed the lights to double insulated that wouldnt be a problem, and the earth would just be taped up?

i'll have a word with her tomorrow, see if she'd prefer a sparky to do it, or maybe speak to the manager and ask her advice.

thanks

If you don't even know how to use a multimeter should you really be playing around with electricity?

If you don’t even know how to use a multimeter should you really be playing around with electricity?

probably not then, i always try to have a bash at any DIY tho, usually after advice on here (rewired all the spots in my house from 12v to 240 a few years ago with help from here).  if that advice is to leave alone tho, then thats what i'll likely do.

just thinking about it, id still probably prefer to actually learn my way around multimeters, and how to use them so that i could do small jobs like this.

anyone know of a good resource online?

and er.....

or the slightly more dodgy but quicker method of checking you have 240v ish between the live red and the earth

so would this just be switching the leccy off, selecting the correct setting on the MM, then touching the live and earth wires and looking for a reading of around 240V?  and this would guarantee that the earths doing its job and i could happily connect up?

cheers

Bookmarking, I need to do this in mIL place next week

Youtube is great for stuff like this, just find a proper working sparky with regular videos rather than someone hunting for clicks that has spent 5 minutes on wikipedia and then fudged it out to a 20 minute video!
So you would test the multi-meter first, continuity setting and touch the probes to check it reads 0 ohms and this also is the battery self test.

Then with power on test for 230-250v is between live and neutral, and again between live and earth.  If you get no reading, or a low reading between live and earth, the earth is not connected.  Neutral to earth should be 0v but if you have no earth then this reading is invalid.
Then turn off the power, and repeat the tests.  Everything should be 0v.

A sparky would also do some continuity checks and insulation resistance etc, you can also learn this on youtube 🙂

Maybe the housing complex are pretty relaxed but I suspect they mean you can change the curtains or paint the living room 🙂  A double insulated light would remove the need for the earth but it doesn't remove the belt and braces approach of checking the fitting is safe to work on.

Even after all of that, the first contact I make with the bare wires is to brush the back of my hand lightly over the wires as if you get a shock, your muscles contract and make you increase your grip, so this way your fingers would grip away from the wires rather than onto them!  And make sure your other hand isn't holding anything conductive like the earthed light fitting or a radiator as this would allow the shock to travel from arm to arm via your chest.

PS I'm not qualified (well only in part for street furniture and DNO fuses) just passing on stuff I've learnt from school/low voltage testing at work/vehicle electrics and of course, Youtube.

What you need to determine is not just that the c.p.c is connected but that it also offers a low enough resistance to create a high fault current to allow the fuse of Mcb to work. Putting a light up and getting it to work is a doddle, doing it properly so if either the line/neutral wire works it’s way loose and touches the casing doesn’t just make a live big metal probe hanging off your ceiling needs a bit more knowledge