[Closed] Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

Just how offensive do you think that comment is to people without the same void of faith as you?

I reckon you just outed yourself old chap. From potential best man material to righteous indignation in a week stretches the believability a little.

Good effort though.

Any atheist is perfectly happy to accept that whatever proposition regarding whatever subject is raised is true. Or at least , so highly probable that it is as near to the actuality as makes no difference.

All you have to do, is provide the evidence.

Otherwise, you've opened your mind so far that your brains have fallen out.

A common problem amongst theists, in my experience.

IanMunro - Member
But in order to know what that is like and what it means, you'd have to believe, and in order to believe you'd have to have an open mind, something which clearly you are demonstrating that you lack.

I'm not entirely convinced by the middle part of your point though 'Belief requires an open mind', as there do appear to be an awful lot of close minded individuals of faith.

Thats a good point Ian, there are a lot of closed minds out there, especially within Religion, I don't deny that!

I should have said:

But in order to know what that is like and what it means, you'd have to explore Faith, and in order to have do that you'd have to have an open mind, something which clearly you are demonstrating that you lack.

That would have been truer to the point I was trying to make.

I don't see what's so complicated about "knowing" what faith means.

The religious are telling us what it means all the time, especially when they use it as an argument of last resort.

It's the trust in the existence of something for which no evidence can be presented. It is irrational and therefore requires irrational belief, ie: faith.

Not righteous indignation Torminalis, what he said was intentionally offensive and written just to get a reaction. He's not going to get anymore of a reaction.

You originally posted:

However, in times of great strain or desperation, which in my life there have been a few, I do pray, to whom I don't know, but it does give me comfort. And that to me is the basis of a Faith.

It may very well be comforting, but that doesn't make it true.

Any atheist is perfectly happy to accept that whatever proposition regarding whatever subject is raised is true. Or at least , so highly probable that it is as near to the actuality as makes no difference.
All you have to do, is provide the evidence.

wouldn't that be an agnostic, MrW ?
I thought atheists believed specifically that that there is/are no god

scaredypants, the definitions are:

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[5][6]

compared to:

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the similarities or differences between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief.

scaredypants - Member

wouldn't that be an agnostic, MrW ?
I thought atheists believed specifically that that there is/are no god

No. Atheism is accepting that the probability that there is a god is so infinitely small (due to complete lack of evidence) that it is as near to saying "there is no god" as makes no difference, so is perfectly happy to conclude that there is no god.

The last faint strand of hope that a theist has, is that some day, evidence may be presented to support the existence of a god. Were this to happen, and the evidence is peer group reviewed and declared solid enough to be a theory, then atheism would say that it is probable that there is a god.

But I wouldn't hold your breath...

In the meantime, like MrNutt, there is always the fallback position of irrational belief.

... and here we see the pietic MrNutt hijacking a conversation to trump my reply and refer to a previous comment of mine using obliquity as a dishonest tactic.

And there he was, telling us that he wasn't going to "react" anymore.

Hypocrite. But I forgive you...

I take it back. I must have been hallucinating.

god forgive me, then.

Mr Woppit & Junkyard, do you ever fear you may just be invoking the PaddedFred Obi Wan paradigm?

It's the trust in the existence of something for which no evidence can be presented. It is irrational and therefore requires irrational belief, ie: faith.

But the nature of this evidence is questionable isn't it. Folks might say they see evidence in the beauty of a sunset, so they believe God exists, you might so say you see the evidence of gravity in the way stuff seems to fall when you drop it. Or evidence of hatred or ESP or electrons, as i said before, by the effect they have on the world

Sunset: That is correlation between two seperate things, one of which is an observable occurrence, the other an unproveable concept. There is no demonstrative connectivity between the appearance of the sunset, and an unproved causation.

Gravity is an observable and verifiable phenomenon which works in a specific causal way, universally. To believe (again, without evidence) that some form of superior invisible being is moving things around, is analogous to saying that trees shake becouse god is moving them, rather than that the wind is blowing...

Any atheist is perfectly happy to accept that whatever proposition regarding whatever subject is raised is true. Or at least , so highly probable that it is as near to the actuality as makes no difference.

All you have to do, is provide the evidence.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think that you are conflating Athiest with Rationalist. Whilst there is certainly a degree of correlation between the two positions I don't see them as being interchangeable. I think it would be safe to say that the majority of scientist are rationalist, but a significant number of those will also be thiests.

Mr Woppit what on earth is "pietic" supposed to mean?

You are only doing this to gain attention, a reaction and trying to force your views despite you clearly stating that your point of view is "no Faith and believe that others shouldn't".

I started this thread because I think it can be constructive, interesting and thought provoking. And it has been, disregarding your interruption.

Your presence & contribution to the proceedings is no longer welcome, clear off, start a new thread, go and seek a rise out of someone else or go out and ride your bike. Just leave this topic please.

You are demonstrating the worst traits this forum has to offer. You should be ashamed.

gonefishin, I agree. The rational interpretation of the probable result, should naturally incline towards atheism, as the probability of god's existence is so infinitely small as to be not worth bothering with.

However, in my opinion. the scientists (few in number, much like the probability itself) who use this invisible sliver of hope to say that their faith still stands, are grasping at something so much finer than a straw that it can't even be seen...

Athiesim is just too easy nowadays. Doesn't require any faith anymore.

Gravity is an observable and verifiable phenomenon which works in a specific causal way, universally. To believe (again, without evidence) that some form of superior invisible being is moving things around

You are conflating the points here. I'm questioning sufficiency of evidence. You for example believe in gravity, because you see the way certain things behave. You have no evidence for it, only that it appears to be predictable and consistent with your understanding of it. However, you need to realise that it is only a theory, and you don't actually know 'how' it works, only that it does. You choose to believe in it, because of what you observe.

Others may say that God behaves in a way which is consistent with their understanding of him/her/it and the too observe the effects without understanding him/her/it.

ooOOoo - Member
Athiesim is just too easy nowadays. Doesn't require any faith anymore.

and the outfits are rubbish, the buildings dull and the songs, well don't get me started on that!

Hello Nutt, I thought you weren't talking to me anymore, has god been in touch?

what on earth is "pietic" supposed to mean?

The act of being pious.

your point of view is "no Faith and believe that others shouldn't".

News to me. You do what you like, old chap.

I started this thread because I think it can be constructive, interesting and thought provoking. And it has been, disregarding your interruption.

Well, just ignore me then. Oh, you were. Oh, you're not. Oh.

Your presence & contribution to the proceedings is no longer welcome,

Says you. Who made YOU pope?

clear off, start a new thread, go and seek a rise out of someone else

See above.

You are demonstrating the worst traits this forum has to offer. You should be ashamed

Erm, nope. Deal with it.

Tell you what, Woppit, I will, and may my God help you if we ever do meet.

To a certain extent, I agree with you charlie. However, to assert that a seperate, superior intelligence is "moving things around", rather than physical objects exerting forces upon each other due to their mass, still begs proof of the existence of the superior intelligence.

Also, such an "intelligence" would have to be very complicated indeed to achieve the sort of result you mention, along with everything else that it would need to control, that it could only have arisen by a process of evolution, which is about simple things evolving into complicated things.

Given that, one would next need to ask, what caused the simple thing from which this superior and complicated intelligence evolved?

"You can't fool me, it's turtles all the way down"...

MrNutt - Member

and may my God help you if we ever do meet.

Why's that, then?

No, I'm not saying the higher being is moving things around. Merely illustrating that you too believe in things in which there is a lack of complete evidence and understanding. You claim that you evidence of God to believe he exists. If that is the case, others may say look around you. If it is proof you need, then that is a different issue.

Also, such an "intelligence" would have to be very complicated indeed to achieve the sort of result you mention, along with everything else that it would need to control, [b]that it could only have arisen by a process of evolution,[/b] which is about simple things evolving into complicated things.

Now that's quite a leap! But it does show that you believe in evolution, which again is a theory and lacks complete evidence.

Zen STW.

Those who know, do not post.
Those who post, do not know.

😉

MrNutt - Member
and may my God help you if we ever do meet.

Mr Woppit - Member
Why's that, then?

I'd invite you to use your imagination,

but hang on, do you have one?

does such a thing actually exist?

can it be proven?

Now i like what MrNutt has said, but Mr Woppit has been fun too, but which is better? Theres only one way to find out... FIGHT

I have used my imagination. I think MrNutt is going to meet me dressed as a hyper-sexual penguin riding a theoretical unicorn, thus proving that he has a sense of humour. If THAT'S not using my imagination, I don't know what is...

Nah, he's just gonna pagger you...

Mr Woppit, perhaps you could tell me where the thoughts in your head come from?

what makes you who and what you are?

the character that you live, where did those traits come from?

any talents you have?

created or would you describe yourself as an evolutionary "accident" that lived?

[i]If THAT'S not using my imagination, I don't know what is...[/i]
You may have just been touched by His Noodly Appendage..

I have used my imagination. I think MrNutt is going to meet me dressed as a [url= http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=8649823&postcount=80 ]hyper-sexual penguin[/url] riding a [url= http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a782349362 ]theoretical unicorn[/url], thus proving that he has a sense of humour. If THAT'S not using my imagination, I don't know what is...

Yup, you certainly added those two old ideas together in an imaginative way, by adding the word 'riding'. That was all your own. Well done!

charlie, I dispute that "things around me" is evidence of a god. I would say that it is evidence that there are "things around me" and these are things that act in observable, definable ways, all of which are interconnected and causal.

This is evidence that the "cause and effect" nature of reality is taking place, there is no evidence of an invisible agency.

I understand that Evolution is now accepted as a fact, attested to by research and observation. Much has been published. I need to read up on the evidence for this assertion, however, but do not expect to have been misled. The probability of this 😀 is slim, I would say.

I suppose the nub of the argument here is "How do I (or you) kow that anything that we experience is, in any sense, "real".

The dreamer being the dreamed, and so on. Well, it's a nice idea. But there's no evidence.

MrNutt - Member

Mr Woppit, perhaps you could tell me

Well, I could, but all that information is available in depth elsewhere and applies to all of us, so do your own legwork.

I'm not going to bother explaining it to you because it would take a great deal of time and besides, you're beginning to bore me.

The thoughts in my head come from a mixture of chemicals, and electricity going round, as proven by science.

[i]What makes me who I am?[/i] The experiences I have had in life, through the influece of other people and events around me.

[i]Any talents?[/i] Yes, and they became a 'talent' when the activity was done again, and again, and again.... until the chemicals in my brain made the actions of my body 'stick in my memory'. I seem to have a 'talent' for riding a bicycle, as do most other STW'ers.

I was created through a chemical reaction, not some divine super power.

ok, just answer the latter then oh learned one:

Were you created or would you describe yourself as an evolutionary "accident" that lived?

Yep, charlie, pure coincidence. Or perhaps two photons reacting to the same stimulus in an infinite space-time curve...

so a summary of this post

1. Guys im beginning to think like this
2. Oh thats quite interesting i think like this
3. Yes i think similar
4. I dont
5. I think your and idiot and so are your views
6. oh charming
7. up yours
8. FIGHT

Not bad. Needs ketchup.

musTARD!

Too many people have their head in the clouds. The key for me in terms of a philosophy is, is it practical?

Science has lots of faults but it's application in the real world (the world "I" percieve and "I" go about my business in) are clear and definate with outcomes in line with expectations and so on. I pick up the phone it works I talk to someone in New York, Hooray for science, wooo.

Faith has no practical applications that couldn't exist independently of faith. For example I pray really hard for a miracle and a miracle is not forthcoming. I try to speak to god no answer. I seek proof of gods existence and there is none. A faithful person may do something practical and say they did it in the name of faith but they could do a practical thing without faith and frankly I'd rate that even higher on the scale.

Faith to me is irrelevant, perhaps I lack imagination.

So, MrNutt and Charlie, do you believe in evolution?

It's an improbable mountain...

Faith has no practical applications that couldn't exist independently of faith.

Speak for yourself on that one, as I said earlier, I find that my Faith helps be be a lot stronger in dealing with problems, situations, desires and urges. Things to which when Godless I would have submitted to and damn the consequences.

I repeat, I consider Faith to be a deeply personal thing, this is why Mr Woppit vexed me so, because he couldn't see that although his wangulation of atheism(sic) may well have been to him a general concept that he has on a shelf. To me my Faith is a much deeper thing than that, Its something that helps me when I'm in trouble, its something that gives me comfort when I'm lost and its something that brings me greater happiness when all is usual or even better.

Now you can attempt at pissing in my packet of God flavoured crisps all you like, but I'm still going to be eating them and every mouthful will be piss free! 😀

My daily life is enriched by my Faith, That to me IS a practical application, would my daily life exist without my Faith, Yes, but I couldn't say for how long or to what ends, most certainly not as good as it is now.

I'm glad your security blanket makes you happy. (Edit: sorry).

So, my understanding of what is going on around me is, as you rightly point out, illuminated by things that I have read and had explained to me.

Whence comes your "faith", then? Did you make it up out of a vacuum?

What do you mean by "deep", in this context?

Also - I'd be interested to hear about these "desires and urges" that seem to disturb you so, for which you apparently need "forgiveness"...

crikey, in answer to your question:

I don't have a conflict between my faith in God and the evidence of evolution.

I believe that evolution has a large amount of convergent evidence to support the notion of evolution [astronomoy, geology, biology to name a few]. Whilst some areas remain shrouded in confusion / lack clarity as a whole it is a very robust and well understood system with very little evidence to counter it as a theory.
In layman’s terms yes it is true

PS: So, given that you "believe" in evolution, from what did your god evolve?
Also, why do you think that evolution involves "accident"?

Ok, I'm not having a go, but does that mean that you treat some of the Bible as allegorical?

..and following on, if you do, how do you decide which bits?

So, MrNutt and Charlie, do you believe in evolution?

What's to believe? I understand it is a fact.

Actually, I think it's the best guess yet.

Again then Charlie, does it conflict with the bible version, and do you think some bits are allegorical?

PS: So, given that you "believe" in evolution, from what did your god evolve?

There is requirement that God evolved.

Also, he's not 'my' God.

CharlieMungus - Member

So, MrNutt and Charlie, do you believe in evolution?

What's to believe? I understand it is a fact.

Actually, I think it's the best guess yet.

Well, which is it?

We know Charlie it is everyones god

The later WHoppit Science does not discover truths just explanationos of best fit please dont make me do this in another thread - it removes infinite error it has a probability of the conclusion being true. It is not true hence why science can do huge paridigm switches based on evidence and reverse their position on issues

... and here's the religious faction jumping into the discussion with the usual unsupported assertions, expecting still, that they will carry weight with those of us who have been explaining at great length, why they don't.

MrNutt [img] [/img]

Mr Woppit, you seem all too willing to demand answers from me but reluctant to answer any of mine.

If you care to read earlier in this thread you'll know the answer as to where my faith comes from,

deep? you don't understand that word when used in an emotional/spiritual manner?

desires and urges? think bad things, destructive and violent activities both towards myself and others with no concern or intent to reign in.

here you go again, DID I SAY [b]NEED[/b] FORGIVENESS? NO. but perhaps I will one of these days.

Learn to read and pay attention or STFU.

PS I recall that Junkyard's points have been evidentially refuted in the past, yet here he is again. Raising them again.

I don't understand how he manages to transmute "A theory is scientific if it can be unproved by new information" into "cience can do huge paridigm switches based on evidence and reverse their position on issues " - as if there is something wrong with that...

Science is the search for truth, a laudable aim with many discoveries to it's credit and consistent irrespective of race or location.

Religion is the delivery of truth as outlined by the faithful, an arrogant position without evidence and completely contradictory based on the version of truth practiced in your society.

In the simplest terms I don't believe the "truth" that religion offers. Science isn't claiming the truth just a move towards it, step by step.

Which bible version? The Old Testament? I think some bits are allegorical

where were they evidentially refuted?
I lack your faith in that claim 😛

Well, which is it?

[quote=woppit]I understand that Evolution is now accepted as a fact

Me? I think it's the best guess yet.

Nutt - I stand corrected. I think that what you are trying to say is that you "need" faith, which is maybe why you're looking for it. Or have found it, I'm not completely sure which.

It seems to me that the nub of the matter and the reason you are posting, is that you are seeking help with your self image of a violent personality with no moral restraint to hold you back from committing acts of violence.

This is all about your battle with your own impulses, which you yourself find unnacceptable. It's nothing to do with religion.

First of all, your chosen strategy to find a way out of your dilemma, whilst not being (in my opinion) a useful one (based as it is, on myth and superstition) does at least show that you recognise the problem and are trying to find a solution.

In my opinion, you should seek therapeutic counselling. I cannot comment on which would be the most useful for you, as I have no experience in that area, but can I suggest a visit to your G.P., who may be able to advise?

I'm sure even the briefest of web searches may provide some resources, such as:

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/treatments/cbt.aspx

I wish you luck in your existential struggle. Be brave.

All the best.

"Woppit".

How supportive of you mr woppit. And it didnt come over as patronising, not in the slightest. 🙄 Argue about religion as much as you like, but please, leave the psychiatric interventions to those of us that do it for a living, there's a love.

My intention is completely, to support.

You are reading into it, patronisation that is not there.

You are however, patronising me. And not helping mrNutt.

In the slightest.

Apologise for your remarks and withdraw.

PS: MrNutt - I am completely sincere and I hope you find my post useful.

You're patronising him by suggesting he has mental health issues becuse he started a thread on a subject you have proven time and again you disagree with. I was actually aiming for irony with the last part of my original comment, but it's difficult to convey in writing. You want me to apologise to you? Not gonna happen woppit.

I actually believe you [whoppit] but you seem to have an innate ability to come over as c0ck even when being sincere
Sadly I have this in the real world - sincerity gap- tragic affliction caused by repeated sarcasm leading to one not being taken seriously when you mean things

I am interested in hearing from MrNutt if my post has suggested anything useful.

MrNutt has raised what I can only suppose is a serious issue and is asking for advice, it seems to me. If I am wrong, then I will recognise that, and stand corrected.

If I am right, your "irony" is innapropriate and insensitive.

Let's leave the next word to MrNutt, shall we.

[i]Apologise for your remarks and withdraw.[/i]

Throw your glove before him sir, and demand satisfaction.

Woppit - are you familiar with a film called Coolhand Luke?

when I read

I think that what you are trying to say

the following line came back to me from the film:

"What we've got here is (a) failure to communicate"

whilst your concern for my mental health is appreciated but not required.

you still fail to understand my point, the entire point behind my reuniting with Faith.

It was through [b]rebellion against what I ultimately felt, my Faith,[/b] that I would live so recklessly.

To ease your mind I have had counseling, I have explored the very reasoning and all motives throughly, motives which you but loosely and ineffectively grasp at.

I am returning to my Faith after an over 20 year absence from God, The purpose of this thread was not to seek reassurance, to seek help or to debate the merits of test tubes over scrolls. The reason I am posting is that I believe that there may be just one other person out there who is in a similar situation and that they might take comfort in the fact that they are not alone. That they are not the only one and that also what they feel and believe to be right for them is not wrong; despite what anyone else says be them learned or not.

I understand that some people will live a life without faith, because it is not for them.

I understand that some people will live a life with a Faith that others are not willing to accept.

But I do not seek to dissuade, divert or change the course of a river.

But what you are attempting to do, to announce that you know better, that your way is the only true way and that all other options are wrong and that you have proof...

...well, what does that sound like to you?

and you call me a hypocrite, brother, we can clearly sense our own kind.

I think he is saying you have no proof therefore it makes him correct and you wrong. this wouuld be a reasonable point if he said he had a bike and you said show me and he did. We would accept it was true. It is therefore reasonable to say show me your god when others claim it and expect proof rather than your flowery poetic language about faith, journeys and rivers, which is nicely written, but it is not proof.
No one is trying to stop people having faith , everyone has the right to believe in anything they wish but that does not make what they believe accurate. It is why evidence is a better system as it stops you holding on to stuff that has no evidecne to support it

IanMunro - Member

Apologise for your remarks and withdraw.

Throw your glove before him sir, and demand satisfaction.

😆 Yeah, I'll give you that. Bit cockish.

"Throw your glove before him sir, and demand satisfaction."
I'd throw my boot up his knackers, given half a chance 😀

Mr Woppit comes across about as sensitive as Richard Dawkins

That's a relief, then.

It's interesting that you say that it was a "rebellion" against your "faith" that caused the behavioural problems for which you subsequently sought therapy, that included the impulse to violence and the inability to hold back.

Seems to me this is an illustration of one of the problems with "faith".

If you didn't have the "faith" in the first place, there would have been nothing to rebel against, and therefore, no behavioural problems...

I don't envy you.

I could start another whole discussion about your misinterpretation of my motives in joining the discussion about faith and religion from my point of view as a rationalist, but I don't think it would get us anywhere as it's all been said really, despite junkyard's inability to remember previous thread outcomes.

In my opinion, given all the problems that your faith has given you, my advice would be to find ways of getting rid of it, but then, that's just me being a "c0ck", I suppose.

Good luck.

PS: and there's barnsleymitch, still being a good christian who doesn't like (apparently) to get upset by people criticising him about his beliefs.

Why don't you just forgive me, you hypocrite?

Mr Woppit - Member
PS: and there's barnsleymitch, still being a good christian who doesn't like (apparently) to get upset by people criticising him about his beliefs.

[b]Why don't you just forgive me[/b], you hypocrite[b]?[/b]

Woppit, perhaps you should cease criticizing other peoples beliefs, Then maybe you might not be the one asking for forgiveness?

Now i like what MrNutt has said, but Mr Woppit has been fun too, but which is better? Theres only one way to find out... FIGHT

Good plan, except for the fact that Woppit doesn't actually have the courage to meet anyone face to face, to discuss things.

Do you know, that he actually said he would avoid an STW bike ride, if I was going to be there??!

How pathetic is that? Cutting of yer nose to spite yer face.

It's a good thing the internet exist, otherwise he'd have no outlet for his egotistical bile...

Come on Woppit, come and have a pint with me. Come on. 🙂

Come on. I promise not to laugh at your Brompton...

evolutionary "accident"