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Certainly undeniable proof of something very profound. What I'm not sure of, but there you go.
Do Christians not believe in Allah because of a lack of evidence?Ignore this question if it's tricky....
I'm ignoring because it has a false premise. Christians do believe in Allah.
Really? To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran
Yes, the way it says in the bible. I'm not sure what is says in the Koran, do tell me
No, I don't, but as the subject of ESP is tested more, and those test results begin to show that it works, I would be able to change that view.
Good then you need to meet Jessica Utts
There's a video from ICOTS8 floating around out there as well
http://videolectures.net/icots2010_utts_awab/
My dancers are better than yours Yunki...........
ps. how do you do the pic link thing?
Um, a basic understanding of the concept? Like, for example, the idea that infinity isn't just the biggest number you can count to?
Sure, I accept that it's more than just numbers, but that's not my point as you're probably aware. We accept all sorts of things without hard evidence. For reasons I don't understand, people that don't believe in God are at odds with the thought of other people believing in God, and the reasons they most often point to, in my experience, is lack of evidence.
[i]Christians do believe in Allah[/i]
Really? To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran?
Waiting.....
and no, I don't need to meet Jessica. I believe in gravity, but I don't need to meet Newton, I believe in road safety, but I'm not having Tufty* round for tea either...
* whoops, showing my age now...
Really? To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran?Waiting...
Answered above, but in an edit, you may have missed it.
Why don't you tell me specifically which bit of the Koran you are referring to in terms of the the christian belief in Allah, then I can answer the question.
[i]For reasons I don't understand, people that don't believe in God are at odds with the thought of other people believing in God, and the reasons they most often point to, in my experience, is lack of evidence[/i]
If there is no evidence for a belief, then it would appear rational to question that belief, no?
Some people think that people with different colour skin are inferior to them, there is no evidence for this, and therefore grounds to question it as a belief. Religious belief is not special, not above question, so, given the opportunity, I would question it.
Oi ! We'll have no dissing of Tufty. I was a fully paid up member of his club.
Sorry to be flippant about 'worshipping' a craven image 😳
and no, I don't need to meet Jessica. I believe in gravity, but I don't need to meet Newton
so you mean you do believe in ESP?
Anybody ever read 'Small Gods' by Terry Pratchett?
One of the main premises of the book is that many gods exist, but some are more powerful than others due to the number of people that believe in them. If no one believes in a god, then the god ceases to exist. And if gods don't live up to their end of the bargain (answering prayers etc) then people stop believing in them.
[i]Why don't you tell me specifically which bit of the Koran you are referring to in terms of the the christian belief in Allah, then I can answer the question.[/i]
I am as unfamiliar with the Koran as you are, and so am unable to answer that, bit like you are...
Tell me about the bits of the Bible that demonstrate Christian belief in Allah then.
[i]so you mean you do believe in ESP?[/i]
I don't have any great belief in it, largely because I am unfamiliar with it and the evidence for it. I have an open mind on the subject.
I am as unfamiliar with the Koran as you are, and so am unable to answer that, bit like you are...Tell me about the bits of the Bible that demonstrate Christian belief in Allah then.
Then why are you even posing a question you don't understand?
I'm asking for enlightenment, and to make the point that a 'Christian' belief system is exclusive, one true god and all that.
...except that all the other one true gods have an equal claim. Which makes things theologically a bit tricky, wouldn't you agree?
For reasons I don't understand, people that don't believe in God are at odds with the thought of other people believing in God, and the reasons they most often point to, in my experience, is lack of evidence
I don't care who believes in god, my in-laws believe and that is their choice. My GF believes, sort of, and that is her choice too, but I don't go round telling you that you are going to die the most horrible death and suffer for eternity because you believe in something I don't.
I don't want to believe and I certainly don't want to worship something that if it really exists, has caused me and the people I love so much pain.
If there is a god and I really don't believe that there is, it is not the benevolent overseer of the world that most religions portray them as, it's a guy in a lab coat, wondering what happens if he pushes that other button!
If there is no evidence for a belief, then it would appear rational to question that belief, no?
If there was evidence for a belief it would be called a fact, no?
Would you not agree that having belief or faith in something is the only mechanism we have for things we can't comprehend? If you can come to terms with this concept, you might find believing in God is a rewarding experience.
[i]If there was evidence for a belief it would be called a fact, no?[/i]
I'd agree with that to a certain extent.
[i]Would you not agree that having belief or faith in something is the only mechanism we have for things we can't comprehend?[/i]
No, I wouldn't agree with that. Just because we don't comprehend something doesn't mean we have to have belief or faith. I'm not sure about how mobile phones work, or radios for that matter, but that dosn't mean I have to have either faith or belief in them. It just means I don't understand them.
[i]If you can come to terms with this concept, you might find believing in God is a rewarding experience.[/i]
I'm not sure how this would help. I'm pretty sure that your faith is a fundamental part of who you are, not something that you can switch on or off, not something you can choose to have or not have.
My absence of any similar faith is equally as fundamental to me; I simply can't decide to believe in the same way I can't decide to be 5 inches taller or less attractive*; it just won't work...
* this may actually be an article of faith, or a blatant lie...
crikey - a good reply, that.
For me, faith was something of a gradual thing - or at least something that sort of grew. I suppose there was an initial so called "leap of faith", but that must have been born out of some sort of desire to believe in God in the first place.
[i]..except that all the other one true gods have an equal claim. Which makes things theologically a bit tricky, wouldn't you agree?[/i]
This is why I don't favour one particular god, just seems disrespectful to all the other ones.
Mind you some of the popular ones are a bit blood thirsty for me.
The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”
[al-Maa’idah 5:33]
“And (as for) the male thief and the female thief, cut off (from the wrist joint) their (right) hands as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allaah. And Allaah is All Powerful, All Wise” [al-Maa’idah 5:38]
I'm fascinated by religion, partly I think because I don't have that faith or belief. I am a bit naughty on these threads, and tend to feel guilty about having a dig.
From my viewpoint I struggle to understand how faith and or belief can fit in with an otherwise rational and logical life. I think I probably think about it in the wrong way, a bit like seeing an illusionist just to work out the trick instead of watching the show.
I see having Faith (I have faith in God), having Religion (i cannot as yet claim one although i was educated CoE) and the belief in science to all co exist, yes there will always be crossover and conjecture but its only when you take an extreme point and try to apply it generally in science, faith or life that things come undone and turn to conflict.
The only thing that can stop you believing in ether yourself or your Faith is yourself, no one can force you, except hypnotists, who are clearly witches, and we all know what we do to witches don't we! 😉
For me personally, my faith in a loving, caring God becomes very real when science can no longer provide a solution to a problem (cure if you will) but prayer does. Having faced situations and crisis in my life that to the world looked hopeless, for me, that's when I see God stepping in and my faith is strengthened through answered prayer. According to every Doctor and Consultant my wife should have died from cancer but I believe that God cured her when the only hope we had was in trusting Him.
Can't prove it scientifically, don't feel I need to either as my wife is a living testimony, as it were.
This is just my two penneth but felt I should contribute.
I was bought up a Catholic and lived 3 miles from Knock as a boy over 40 years ago. My extended family has a priest and nun, and my cousins include an episcopal minister, as is his wife, a deacon who dropped out of the church in the last year before ordination and a third cousin who is to be ordained a priest next year. So a lot of religeon in my life. My parents still go to mass every weekend but I have no interest in organised religeon these days as I do not believe in a greater being (but I still hate Rangers!). I acccept I could be wrong though.
I try to live a 'good' life however and the 10 commandments are not a bad start as a way to live a life - despite being from the OT. Thou shall not steal, or covet your neighbours wife for instance......
I don't imagine ever joining an organised religeon again but respect other peoples choices.
Good luck with your quest MrNutt where ever it may lead you. I will look out for a change of user name to RevNutt or similar;-)
Respectfully it is shame your god does not choose to save a number of equally devout people with cancer and I suspect the Dr/consultant said it was unlikely not impossible - is she the only person alive with this cancer? My uncle was given 4 years to live 12 years ago - no one believes in god I take that as proof of my atheism. I am glad your wife is alive but surely it would be better if your divine deity eradicated cancer for us all?
Whilst I have a scientific understanding of a variety of things, I don't dismiss the possibility of there being a God
Nor me I just ask for the same standard of proof as I do for all other things It fails badly on this front
Re is it the same god
The Koran the Bible and the Torah all have the old testament so I would say yes they worship the same god but in a different way they would probably disagree
I agree the 10 commandments is a good moral code especially the part about not coveting your neighbours wife or SLAVES !! A god would endorse slavery I think - perhaps thatis what you mean when you say god is too mysterious for words. So you cannot prove it exists nor explain its reasons for doing things and you wonder why people question your faith.
crikey, your latest post indicates that you may just be being mischievous, however here are a few points
You have a pop at IanB for "making based on a programme off the telly from a while ago" and ask that you'e knowledge must be based on " Um, a basic understanding of the concept?" but then continue to argue and ask questions about Allah, the koran and the bible, when you clearly have no idea about any of these thing, not even based on a 'program off the telly". That's bad form.
When i first asked if you believed in ESP, you were fairly unequivocal
[quote=crikey]No, I don't,but as the subject of ESP is tested more, and those test results begin to show that it works, I would be able to change that view.
i then asked you inspect the evidence, from Jessica Utts, you close your mind to it and refuse. Somewhat ambiguously explaining that you don't need to meet Newton to believe in gravity. This leads me to ask again if you believe in ESP, and now you
has something changed?... don't have any great belief in it
You also claim that I am unfamiliar with the koran as you are. I doubt this very much. For although you pretend to know something about it
To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran?
It is clear you know nothing of it. If you ask me for the evidence as above then tell me, it what way it says in the koran where? As you are sure that it prescribes a way of worshipping Allah in there.
Your point about 'one true gods' having equal claim demonstrates your lack of knowledge and understanding of these religions. I don't mean that pejoratively. I use it only to illustrate that you shouldn't be trying to make points in an argument in which you know little about the religions and what they believe. Here we return to your point about needing to have a 'basic understanding of the concept'.
Just a summary before we move on. Hope you can clarify some of these issues.
Nah, can't be bothered.
Thought not. Normally i would see that as laziness, however given the complex web of contradictions you created, it would require a supreme effort to disentangle yourself.
Other than than, good effort, you had a decent run.
Bless you.
Just checking in to see if anyone from either side of this has been converted?
No? Thought not.
Ah, but it seems that some have learned something
I've learned that Charlie isn't very good at internet debate. 😀
That was never my intention Joolsburger, but if this thread encourages open minded consideration of ether side then that can only be a good thing right?
Stephan Hoeller !!
I've learned that Charlie isn't very good at internet debate
Pah! I won you!
Tyger: The problem with using "miracles" to justify faith is that you overlook the millions and millions of times throughout the ages when people have prayed for one and nothing has happened.
For me it's the fact that in any natural disaster it's always thousands of poor and usually very devout people who end up dead that leads me to believe that there is really no one listening up there.
I have however, no doubt that religion has a huge capacity to make people feel better about themselves or their loved ones, so even if it has no basis in fact, it has meaning for the individual who believes and I for one am quite cool with that.
Life has no meaning; or equally it has whatever meaning YOU choose for yourself to give it!
Nah, Charlie, I'd be happy to concede a draw because as you rightly point out, I am arguing about things which I have little knowledge and even less experience. STW in a nutshell, basically!
Hah! you concede! Loser!
But really, do watch the Jessica Utts video. It's pretty long but if you understand Bayes, you can probably skip the first chunk.
Ok, I'll have a look.
My thoughts about ESP are that it's rubbish, but if the evidence shows differently, and is good reliable and repeatable I will accept it.
Has James Randi looked at it? I believe there is money to be won..
It was a meta-analysis of lots of ESP research, the evidence came down in favour of ESP
If the evidence is good, I would accept it, although I would admit it would pain me to do so...
i would get in touch with these then and claim my money
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
you can search the claims on there ,there are some beauties. A woman who claimed Jesus gave her the power to make people pee in their pants is one of my favourites.
I agree religion gves peole comfort and often and immense capacity for great acts - forgiveness for eexample. However the two main problems I have with it are.
1. Even if true they cannot explain what their god does - it is unknowable and has some serious problems with internal consistency. All loving and all powerful yet we suffer, free will or pre ordained by god , the devil,miracles etc.
2. It fails to answer the fundamental issue and you can then just say the same about god. How did god get here , what made god etc. At least we know we exist and have a reasonably robust [ fits the observed data better than creationism] understanding of how this came to be.
produce data/evidence of god and I will accept I was wrong.
how about:
1. We are born unto earth and not into heaven, here things are not under the control of God but nature, man and time.
2. God is not there to be proved but found. seek and you will find.
But don't expect to find the answer in books, on youtube, through others or even scriptures, they can only offer suggestion. opinion, comment, conjecture or confusion. (and it all comes in no particular order)
its all there if you are willing to look. seek and you will find. personally.
What you wibbling on abahyt now, Nutt? You bin smoking that funny baccy again?
FFS.
I wondered where you had got to, have you been reading little brother?
(and no, I'm drug free.)
Hi MrNutt
I've just stumbled across this thread, must be the most number of postings on any subject in a 24 hour period. Most of the debate has been quite erudite, too.
I think there's a difference between faith, being what you believe, and the practice of participating in organised religion. Any group activity can be either supportive and helpful, or offputting. I guess the trick is, if you want to explore faith, to find a group that suits your temperament. I'm an occasional CoE attendee (weddings, Christmas and Rememberance Sunday mainly), and I like the community aspect of it. I'd also agree with several previous postings that Commandments 6 to 10 are a pretty good basis for a moral compass (not stealing or killing seem like pretty good advice to me). Over the years I've read bits of the OT (KJV), and have enjoyed it as an allegorical story, plus the interest about how life was 2-3 thousand years ago.
I'm always just really depressed that there has been (and is) so much bloodshed in the name of religion. Not sure how to solve that one (so don't ask me to go to the Middle East).
Good luck with your search!
I have but found nothing but my wishful thinking. Still carry budishism with me and use this daily but I am not seeking nirvana.
good luck on your journey.
Nah, not read any of it. Boring, tbh. Same old same old, bin done on here countless times before.
Has Woppit turned up? I'm a bit worried about him, haven't seen much of his nonsense lately.
Elfinsafety - MemberWhat you wibbling on abahyt now, Nutt?
Can't make any sense of it Effin ?
Choosing a Faith is a bit like choosing a bike. Got to a shop, wander round, maybe even test ride a few.
Big brand? Niche brand? Full Custom? Off the peg or tailored to fit? Stick with stock components or 'upgrade' to suit personal tastes?
So yer Trek, Spesh, etc; they're like yer big religions; Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc. Then yer DeKerf, Merlin, etc; like Jainism, Zoroastrianism, stuff like that. Or you can have one made just for you; Agnosticism? Aetheism? Jones = some weirdo cult where people laugh at you a lot?
More than one bike = Pantheism?
Oh I dunno, something like that.
I'm too tired now I might go to bed early.
Has Woppit turned up
Ironically, he turned up, told us what we should or shouldn't believe, announced his departure, left. Then came back briefly only to leave again. However, some of us think he'll be back, perhaps at the end of the thread.
Oh I see:
What makes you think that life has a "meaning"? Life has no meaning. This is a good thing.
Bless him.
Must be awful, your life being 'meaningless'.
(Jew think that'll lure him out?)
[i]The surest cure for sea sickness is to sit under a tree[/i] - Spike Milligan
Suspecting that Mr. Nutt is trolling. Very disappointed as he has kicked off a very interesting thread. But postings on other threads and the infamous allotment thread make me think that this is an elaborate troll rather then a search for spirituality...
If I'm wrong, I apologise but previous form and all that...
Coyote, I give you my full assurance that I am not trolling, I don't expect apology, your opinions are undoubtedly justified, but this isn't a troll, I have picked up the Bible.
I am coming to terms with a Faith that I have always held but continually doubted and rebelled against, now I am trying to come to terms with Religion, to find the right Religion for me personally, if any.
This is very important to me, hence I have been honest, open and truthful throughout this thread. Trust me on this one.
hence I have been honest, open and truthful throughout this thread. Trust me on this one.
Yeah but in fairness, you haven't in the past, with yer sneaky trolling, which is why I've not taken this thread too seriously.
previous form and all that...
I'm going with that. Sorry, but I'm not convinced.
Mr Nutt, i am one in the minority on here as a fully signed up member of the God squad 😀 i to would encourage you to go on an alpha course and to have a look around at the churches in your area, any decent ones will welcome you and your questions however off the wall. We generally don't have rainbow jumpers/sandals with socks/tambourines and annoying cheesy grins all of the time even if our leg has just fallen off type of smile, you will get the 'odd folk' at church it just draws them but i have seen these people change and i know that it is God impacting their lives. *ducks down to avoid verbal volley's from stwer's* You are approaching this with an open mind well done for that. I approached it thinking there had to be more to life that what i had but also not believing in God, that was just over 8 yrs ago now and the journey continues through life's ups and downs. If you want to chat i am happy to just let me know 🙂
happy searching
[i]2. God is not there to be proved but found. seek and you will find.[/i]
Just as zero, one or many gods have made people without the capacity to see or hear, taste or walk, is it not quite plausible that people have also been made that are incapable of detecting these zero, one, or many gods, and thus will never be able to find, no matter how much they seek?
good point perhaps god forgot to make enough gullible fools 😉
IanMunro - Member
2. God is not there to be proved but found. seek and you will find.Just as zero, one or many gods have made people without the capacity to see or hear, taste or walk, is it not quite plausible that people have also been made that are incapable of detecting these zero, one, or many gods, and thus will never be able to find, no matter how much they seek?
ok, just so I know I've understood your question...
"is it possible that some people are created unable to find Faith or Religion"
I wish I could answer that Ian, I don't know why people are made without the capacity to see or hear, taste or walk anymore than I would know if they could find Faith or Religion. It is a personal journey.
I would suggest that they at least try to see if its for them, on their own terms, maybe even in the comfort of their own homes without hurting anybody else. 😉
Perhaps another question could be "Did God create strict atheists?" or "Does God care for those who don't believe in him?"
In answer to that I'd say that yes, I think that we are all ingredients in this "experiment",
I'd also say that once [u]you let yourself[/u] believe, it is then you see for yourself what you've been missing.
Thanks for the considered response MrNutt, and good luck on your journey.
its a pleasure, n' cheers 🙂
"is it possible that some people are created unable to find Faith or Religion"
There is a bit of that in the bible
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him,and I will raise him up at the last day"
t
indeed there is, here's some further reading if your interested:
[url= http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/John316_637.html ]While John 3:16 Appears All-Inclusive,
Do John 6:37, 44, 65 Indicate a Restriction?[/url]
I'm not at a point where I could argue for or against Calvinism, I know that for many years of my life I could not consider nor could I bear the thought of having Faith at all, as I've said previously I have been the polar opposite of a good Christian.
I can't claim to received any sense of calling but I can categorically state that on the 20th 11th 2010 something changed, I knew that I could receive forgiveness for my immoral behavior and that my life was going to change, for the better, not immediately, certainly not fanatically, but for the better and forever.
No flash of light, no profound experience, just a realization, that is all, that is good and that is more than I had before. 🙂
If you need forgiveness, I'll do it.
Nutt - you are forgiven. I forgive you.
There you are, at least it's from something (ie: me) that demonstrably exists.
Now cheer up, forget about all this god b*llsh1t and enjoy your life.
What makes you think I need forgiveness from something who's existence needs to be demonstrated?
I don't. And its not about being unhappy, I was very happy half the time and not at all the other half.
Now I am actually enjoying my life and not because of my belief in gravity, sainsburys, petrol, the flying spaghetti monster, a haunted fish tank, the new lifecycles film (only shown in the north of england) or anything else, but just my Faith.
It works for me Woppit, you never know you may end up in this very same situation, hell three months ago I'd have laughed my arse off if you'd shown me this thread!
Strange life this one, not everything makes sense and sometimes the least expected can be the most profound. Just because its different and you don't understand it, doesn't make it wrong, maybe one day you will be walking in these very footsteps.
Just as predicted he has arisen again
Praise be - i cant spell hallelujah
CharlieMungus - MemberHas Woppit turned up
Ironically, he turned up, told us what we should or shouldn't believe, announced his departure, left. Then came back briefly only to leave again. However, some of us think he'll be back, perhaps at the end of the thread.
sorry, only read the last page, but this (^) - v good Charlie 😆
Mr Woppit & Junkyard, do you ever fear you may just be invoking the PaddedFred Obi Wan paradigm?
It was supposed to be the third day, but I'm a bit pushed for time.
As I understand it, Nutt is now saying that he wants to be forgiven by something that doesn't exist.
In which he has faith.
Ooooookaaaayyyyyyyy....
[i]"Oh look, he's so stupid because he doesn't think the same as I do"[/i]
Mr Woppit, if Ignorance was a bucket, it would be firmly wedged upon your head.
I know its dark in there.
Woppit needs threads like this. He needs something he can oppose, Religion being just one of the many, many things he is opposed to in his life. He needs to be seen as superior, above the common herd, special. It's not just about expressing his opinion; he has to prove that his opinion is the only one worth considering. He isn't actually interested in any debate or discussion at all.
Thing is, he might be able to achieve this, if he were to meet up for a pint with us sometime. Then, we could hail him as Our True Messiah, and give him the attention and adulation he so obviously craves.
Come on Woppit, tis the Season Of Goodwill To All Men and that.
X
MrNutt - Member"Oh look, he's so stupid because he doesn't think the same as I do"
Mr Woppit, if Ignorance was a bucket, it would be firmly wedged upon your head.
I know its dark in there.
Ooh. Abuse. I thought it was only vicious atheists like me who did that sort of thing. Allegedley.
Reviewing my posts, I see that nowhere did I accuse you of being stupid, so - fail on that one, Nutt old boy.
1: You've said you want to be forgiven.
2: You've said that you DON'T want to be forgiven by something that exists.
3: You say that you want to be forgiven because of your "faith".
I conclude that you want to be forgiven by something that does not exist, in which you have faith. If I'm wrong, please point out where.
PS: Having abandoned piety and then humour in favour of personal abuse, I'm interested to see where you go next.
Junkyard, just been having a rummage through your link to the million pound prize for proof of paranormal antics and the log of applicants is really quite astounding, some choice applicants:
ROSEMARY HUNTER - Paranormal Urination
TAMARA USMAN & BRENT HOWARD - Breast abnormality detection
ERIK BOSTROM, Canadian Malcontent
ELAINE McGUCKIN, Asteroid Prophet
Tyrone Shoelace, Fecal Magician
Tis a big old world out there...
feeble trolling sir, misquote me if you like, what I said was:
I knew that I could receive forgiveness for my immoral behavior and that my life was going to change, for the better, not immediately, certainly not fanatically, but for the better and forever.
now read it again, did anywhere in that statement I say that I want forgiveness?
what I also said was:
What makes you think I need forgiveness from something who's existence needs to be demonstrated?
Read that again, now I refer you back to the first quote:
I knew that I could receive forgiveness
This is something that has come about as part of my Faith, it was not something that I had expected, but its nice to know. But in order to know what that is like and what it means, you'd have to believe, and in order to believe you'd have to have an open mind, something which clearly you are demonstrating that you lack.
and whats more, where did I say this:
3: You say that you want to be forgiven because of your "faith".
Further my humorous comment referring to
was not abuse, simply an observation, please consider it as my gift to you, you wear it well. 😉 😀Ignorance as a bucket
think yourself lucky that I've refrained from deliberately setting out to insult you, unlike your good self who thought nothing of posting:
Now cheer up, forget about all this god b*llsh1t and enjoy your life.
Just how offensive do you think that comment is to people without the same void of faith as you?
Oh. So you DON'T want forgiveness.
What exactly do you want, then?
think yourself lucky that I've refrained from deliberately setting out to insult you
Ooh, threats now. Scared.
I think you've made Woppit angry and he is a wrathful Woppit
Indeed, I shall smite thee with the furious keyboard - opposable thumb capability.
Or get my invisible demon-totem to wreck his chakras via the cloud of spirit-ether at the fourteenth level of angel concioussness...
[i]But in order to know what that is like and what it means, you'd have to believe, and in order to believe you'd have to have an open mind, something which clearly you are demonstrating that you lack.[/i]
I'm not entirely convinced by the middle part of your point though 'Belief requires an open mind', as there do appear to be an awful lot of close minded individuals of faith.
Woppit, it's not just your thumbs which are opposable, it's all of you and everything you say.
Woppit, I'm not even going to bother replying to you anymore, grow up.