[Closed] Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

Type 3 error, Woppit

Clarify?

Woppit those are some pretty heart felt claims there mate, is that from "the God delusion", a book which i also own but i am yet to read, i figure i'd best come to my own conclusions before closing off my viewpoint, do you agree? Is this a more sensible option, clearly faith and related religions have had thousands of critics over the years but still it persists, that said i am not going to rule out the madness of crowds or that people love a good yarn, but "what if" is as valid a point as "what isnt", no? Or should one just fall behind the more fashionable line?

Personally, I'm not even a little bit superstitious and have lived the last forty years of my life as a evangelical humanist/atheist and fully intend to die as one.

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

MrNutt - Member

Woppit those are some pretty heart felt claims there mate, is that from "the God delusion", a book which i also own but i am yet to read,

Read it.

no time to read all the posts but here's a couple of quotes I love (whether relevant or not !)

People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves without wondering."

St. Augustine

and : the gold we seek

Eventually we grow weary of seeking treasures outside
ourselves and we begin to look within. There we discover
that the gold we sought, we already are.

Alan Cohen

Not here <---- ❓ middle path ❓ ----> not here

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

Nice one. 😀

Good luck mrnutt with your endevour
I've developed over the years from a forced christian to a stout athiest, by forced i mean from family and friends which as a youngster knowing nothing else (Sunday school)

Religion has killed or murdered probably millions over the centuries, and for what, some invisible bieng nobody has seen or heard, its all fiction as far as I'm concerned
That aside, I do respect the values which it installs, love,family, care etc
Each to their own I say and respect otherwise

schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

Personally I'd have taken the money (you have to be of a certain age for this one!!)

Interesting outlook on faith and religion this morning on the BBC News Pages.

I can't forgive them, I keep praying that God will curse them”

Esmael Mangudadatu Governor of Maguindanao

CharlieMungus : schroedingerscat !! Good to see you again, i thought you were dead!

now that, was divine. 😉

Back on the Dawkins front, I can't find my copy as I'm redecorating and have half my books in boxes. Maybe that's a blessing, or a curse, or maybe its just I have a bad memory!

Can I ask, does he give undeniable proof that God does not exist or is it purely academic conjecture? What motivates him? Does he build a case against Faith or Religion or both?

What is his suggested alternative as all I tend to hear of him is argument and condemnation, Does his "way" contain anything positive or does he just set out to debunk established Religious structures?

At this moment I cannot agree that the Bible is not a good book, it is, a very interesting read. It's also quite an amazing feat of humanity, this book has been around for at least 1500 years, edited, translated, changed and evolved, maybe not always for the good maybe not always for the bad but it is one hell of an achievement for mankind to have not only carried on but also for so many to have believed in wholeheartedly.

I'm not ready to jump upon any God bothering bandwagon just yet nor do I seek to, like I say this is the investigation of my own faith, I do believe I have a faith and I will continue to study this, right now its both an interesting, enjoyable and personally helpful process. Long may it continue 🙂

Here's a question...

Dawkin's claims to know that God does not exist,

Yet I receive help and guidance from God and therefore know God does exist,

Is this not the same as the argument for wearing a helmet whilst riding a bike? Who knows if wearing the helmet would save you? it could do more damage, but to wear one or not wear one is a personal choice, the arguments for and against are out there, I guess its up to each individual as to which side they believe, no?

Personally sometimes I wear one, other times I don't, but I never make a point of telling folk they should or shouldn't wear one, do you?

Can I ask, does he give undeniable proof that God does not exist...

No he does not, and here's the thing he never has. He states his position as being fairly certain that there is no god but as scientist he recongises that it is impossible to prove a negative therefore he does entertain the posibility that he may be wrong. All he asks for is proof.

His main issue seems to be with those who deny science (evolution especially) and reason because of their religious faith. He also has an issue with indoctinating children into a "faith".

Absolute certainty is something enjoyed by those of a religious persuasion, not by those with a scientific one.

ok, that sounds reasonable, I'm not of ether a creationist or evolutionary standpoint just yet but then...

Are there any evolutionary fossils showing the development of man from what he came from before? is this not easily possible to demonstrate?

read "the greatest show on earth" by dawkins... evolution questions answered better than i think STW could 🙂

evolution questions answered better than i think STW could

Surley that can't be. With all of the well informed and balanced personalities on this forum we could end all of the worlds ills...opps, sorry, forgot for a moment this is STW.

Fair point PC. Its just a shame that despite talking what seems like a lot of sense Dawkins comes across as a bit of a twunt.

Everyone seems to say this but I honestly don't see it. A lot of people say Dawkins is 'shrill' and 'screaming atheism'.

I read the God Delusion. It is simply a discussion regarding religion and its place in the world. All he says is that if he was given evidence that a god exists then he'd believe.

I'm sort-of buddhist myself and what he says makes an awful lot of sense.

The only thing I thing gets up peoples' noses is the fact that he reckons that religion should not have any special consideration in the world. I agree. Live and let live, just don't push any dogma onto me from your religion and we'll both be happy.

After all the most faithful religious person is atheist in all other faiths apart from their own...

so is there unequivocal proof that we evolved from the seas or elsewhere? or is there still that old "missing link" issue?

There is no God. Prove to me one shred of evidence that there is...

Case closed!

It really is laughable that in this day and age people still believe in this superstitious nonsense. Supposedly intelligent people some of them are too...

[i]so is there unequivocal proof[/i]

That's not how science works, as you well know. There is a reasonable amount of circumstantial evidence that this might be the case, rather more evidence than is available for the claims made in the various holy books that people are content to accept.

'Missing links' are inevitable in any attempt to provide evidence based on a fossil record; a bit of science regarding how fossils develop would be a good starting point for you to investigate pre-history.

have you looked for yourself, inside yourself loddrik? seriously and honesty with an [u]open[/u] mind?

I'm not suggesting you'd find anything, just wondered if you'd looked.

[i]have you looked for yourself, inside yourself[/i]

What does this even mean?

I blame the Beatles, all that transcendental cobblers....

Stop asking us to argue Richard's case, Nutt. Go and read the books.

You might stop off at Chris Hitchens ("God is not great: How religion poisons everything"), Sam Harris ("Letter to a christian nation") and Ayaan Hirsi Ali ("Infidel") on the way. Or just google or search on Youtube where you will find all your questions about atheism and the objective point of view discussed in detail.

By the way - you say that "god" talks to you. Do you mean that you are hearing voices inside your head, or sense presences where there is no one else present?

...if you do find yourself, inside yourself, presumably you could ask yourself what you'd like for Christmas, and maybe find out who's been eating all those biscuits all these years.

The other thing is, what if you find yourself and you don't like yourself, or what if the self that you found doesn't like you?

What if you found someone else, inside yourself? Which one of you gets to choose what to wear on the Christmas night out?

Best not to mess.

...and just to delay going out for another 2 minutes, open minds and organised religion go together like chalk and cheese; atheists have open minds, theists don't.

Mr Nutt, WTF are you on about..? You are on a wind up, right..?

and the vultures start circling...

I go back to the point I made previously. The 'believers' cannot, and will never, be able to offer a shred of evidence on the existence of god, not one!

Imagine in a court case 'well your honour, the accused is guilty because we believe he did it. We cannot offer any evidence to the contrary, but he must be guilty because we think he did it'.

I cannot put in to words how absolutely mind bendingly gobsmaking the stupidity of religion is...

By the way - you say that "god" talks to you. Do you mean that you are hearing voices inside your head, or sense presences where there is no one else present?

the only voice I hear in my head is my own, but I do believe that having faith helps me follow my better choices. Now be that because the fundamentals of the Christian religion are to be a good person is to me undoubtedly better than following the easy to ride trail of consumerism, selfishness and greed.

Consider society, consider the fundamentals of capitalism, consider the media and its role models presented to everyone, adults and children. The world we are all presented with on a daily basis is often amoral.

Hell children are indoctrinated with that shit on a daily basis the minute they are near a TV or taken out of the house, how is that not as bad as teaching a child about God?

Having Faith is not a bad thing, it provides a clear path to doing "the right thing" but as with everything its important not to blindly accept but to question what is right, that's exactly what I'm doing.

I'm not asking for people to argue Dawkin's points, I will be researching them with the same unbiased view as I am the teachings of the Bible. I am interested in any links or suggestions folk may have and I will check them out, perhaps more people should?

have you looked for yourself, inside yourself loddrik? seriously and honesty with an open mind? I'm not suggesting you'd find anything, just wondered if you'd looked.

How's that funny woody? laugh all you like, mock me, I couldn't care less, its my choice to do this, I was simply asking if he'd personally explored faith? and for all I know loddrik may even list home endoscopy as a hobby?

Ah! Obviously unintentional MrNutt but one of the best put-downs I've seen for a while 😉

Edit : Quick edit there MrNutt! It wasn't a pop at you (I was quite supportive of your quest in my 1st post and I prefer to keep a very open mind on such matters) or loddrik as it happens, as he is entitled to his opinion - it simply amused me

MrNutt,

take a look here...

http://www.ayahuasca.com/

Kev

and as for circling vultures, I'm not forcing my views upon others, nor am I suggesting that people take to religion or find faith, I'm simply asking if it is something they have any personal experience of.

I can handle playground mockery, typically those who shout the loudest are the most ignorant, mockery is a method of self defence against insecurity. I can handle structured reasoned intelligent discussion,

I've brought this to the forum because I expect all of the above, and I think there is value & experience to learn from it all.

edit: ah got ya woody, 😉

Alas, faecophilia is my hobby...

(not litterally though...)

I am completely 'secure' in myself and my beliefs, such that I dont need some superstitious mumbojumbo to act as my moral guidance. I have my own moral code which enables me to live in a manner which does not adversely affect others and I think I'm a pretty decent human being as a consequence.

And guess what, I do this without fear of eternal damnation or some other ridiculous deital punishment or exclusion from the 'afterlife', whatever that is....

You said earlier that "god" has talked to you. Please describe the process whereby this is enabled?

What accent does he have, does he use 'the queens....'?

Having Faith is not a bad thing, it provides a clear path to doing "the right thing" but as with everything its important not to blindly accept but to question what is right, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Sorry Mr Nutt, but I think you are mistaken in your thinking. Faith in itself does not provide a clear path to doing the right thing, faith in what someone tells you is the right thing is purely a choice you make, not necessarily the right thing to do. This is where religous doctorine comes into it.

I know you come from a CofE background and are defining your idea of what is right by the teachings of the bible, but please don't confuse faith and religion. You can have faith in a religion and I can have faith that the rope I'm just about to swing from will hold my weight. But faith isn't what makes me like going on the swing. In the same way, the 7/7 bombers had faith that what they were doing was the 'right thing'.

did I say God "talks to me"

I said

I receive help and guidance from God and therefore know God does exist

if I did say that God talks to me then sorry, I'm no profit!

What I meant, and again this is my own, not of some teaching, I'll try to explain:

Say for example, something is troubling me, I have to make a choice and it is not an easy one to make, I will ask God for help. Its that simple, no prayer mats, no beads, no drugs, no embarrassment and no expectations.

And during that time, because sometimes difficult situations take time to iron out, I may feel the urge to do wrong to myself and others (for example, drink to excess, be hurtful or cruel towards other people ether verbally or worse) I can listen to my thoughts and my faith helps me stay on the right path, because, and this is the hard part to explain and for people without Faith to comprehend, I can feel God in doing the right thing, not just that it is the right thing, but something else, something better.

This is not easy to do, this takes balls to admit this stuff, a lot more balls than it does to try and knock it down.

But like I say, I have my Faith, I am not sure if a church is something I wish to be a part of as I too hold contempt towards the actions of man carried out in God's name. It's personal, and it is mine.

I found God and never lost my faith. I lost my faith in Church and organised religion.

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He
was not there; I went to the Temple of the
Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not
find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys
but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I
able to find Him. I went to the Ka'bah in Mecca,
but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but
He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there
where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was
nowhere else to be found.

Mr Nutt now you are splitting hairs - which I admire with you gently winding up our resident god botherer botherer - the thinking mans angry man oh you get the picture
How does god communicate with you then fine art? Graffiti ? Signs
[img] [/img]

toast, yep, mostly through toast.

I liked when Brian Cox portrayed Hannibal Leckter in Manhunter, the monologue given to Will Graham played by William Petersen...
Summed it up for me

which was?

I was brough up a Catholic, by a devoutly Catholic mum and a quietly but profoundly athiest dad.

I never witnessed or heard of abuse by any figures of authority in the Church, but never really believed in God and resented the rules imposed on me by others who did believe.

I've considered myself an atheist from the age of seven or so (I used to ask A LOT of awkward questions 😀 ) and although there have been many difficult times in my life when I feel that faith in a God would have made me happier and helped me to deal with pain and loss, I just don't believe.
I don't think you can actively choose to believe in a higher being or not: You either do or you don't. You can choose which one to follow, but that's a different matter.

Both my parents were good, honest people who, believers or not, lived by a strong moral and ethical code. I hope I've inherited that, at least.

If you are in anyway a rationalist, please reread the God Delusion and/or any of the other books mentioned by the Wopster. For me, they just reinforced my already strongly heald opinion on the matter of religion.

And as for 'militant atheism', consider this. For thousands of years religion was forced upon the masses as a means of control. Only very recently in Western Europe has it been possible to declare yourself an atheist without any form of censure or retribution.
In parts of America and many Muslim states (amongst others) religious observance is still considered to be mandatory and a declaration of atheism is punishable by social ostracism or in some cases even by torture or death.
Is it any wonder us atheists sometimes get a bit vocal?

Say for example, something is troubling me, I have to make a choice and it is not an easy one to make, I will ask God for help. Its that simple, no prayer mats, no beads, no drugs, no embarrassment and no expectations.

And during that time, because sometimes difficult situations take time to iron out, I may feel the urge to do wrong to myself and others (for example, drink to excess, be hurtful or cruel towards other people ether verbally or worse) I can listen to my thoughts and my faith helps me stay on the right path, because, and this is the hard part to explain and for people without Faith to comprehend, I can feel God in doing the right thing, not just that it is the right thing, but something else, something better.

I think many of us do the same thing - some call it meditation, self realisation, whatever. Some people feel the need to bring the belief in a higher being into the process, some don't & some can't.
As long as you're happy, who cares?

Anyway, sorry to get a bit heavy.
Have you considered a nice handmade bike instead? That's what I'm going for when my next 'mid-life crisis' kicks in.
Cheaper than a Porsche and a blonde, probably more fun too. 🙂

There is no God. Prove to me one shred of evidence that there is...

Case closed!

It really is laughable that in this day and age people still believe in this superstitious nonsense. Supposedly intelligent people some of them are too...

ahh the problem is in proving Deity does not exist - there's no true evidence to prove the lack of existence; which is where we go back to String Theory and the hypothetical problem of 11 extra dimensions that we know nothing about.

Case opened.

It really is laughable in this day and age people still believe that science has answered all the questions of Life, the Universe and Everything. Supposedly intelligent some of them too... 😆

The problem is that for a lot of people Science is supported with the fanaticism of religious zeal and, it has been argued, psychotherapists are their priests.

Perhaps the true answer is that, at this current time, we don't know one way or the other.

There is no God. Prove to me one shred of evidence that there is...

Case closed!

You might say the same of Gravity, or Thought, or Electrons. You cannot see them, only the effect they have on the world.

Mind you don't float away

*by the way, that take your pick reference was only a folk memory. No one is that old surely!!

Can we stop the somewhat ridiculous use of Capital Letters To Attempt To Give Things More Gravitas Than They Deserve?

An example: faith vs. Faith. science vs. Science

The latter is either the start of a sentence or a name of a person.

faith=Faith=FaIth=fAITh

Bloody Anti-Capitalists!

Oh! Well Done!

there's no true evidence to prove the lack of existence;

people still believe that science has answered all the questions of Life, the Universe and Everything

Perhaps the true answer is that, at this current time, we don't know one way or the other

which was?

I forget.....

How do you get evidence of a thing that does not exist not existing?

Whoever said that is an idiot as well - got a source?

By your standards we never will as a lack of evidence for existence in no way discredits a bleievers view - exceleent system clearly.

Of course it depends upon what Deity is - if Nature is Deity then Science is just a way of better understanding Deity.

Junkyard I struggled in making any "leap of faith", I was embarrassed with myself for many years to even consider the possibility of God, of talking to God, of having even Faith.

Still I find it hard sometimes, but it is better than nothing, its not an instant thing, but it does bring about rewards. Why discredit something you don't accept, if you don't believe, then don't believe, its not a choice it is an option, it is there if you ask for it.

Mr Nutt
Congrats on opening and reading the Bible...
I encourage your journey into discovering the truths of the Bible (and Jesus which are more numerous and historically accurate than most people think).
I can endorse joining an "Alpha" or "Christianity Explored" course to help your journey.
It took me a few years of attending a good church, various courses and reading numerous books before I finally committed myself to God.

Good luck Mr Nutt.

I was lent a book that was written around the turn of the last century by a woman that claimed she could channel the thoughts of the moon.
it was a good read, wish i could remember what it was called.

anyways the moon was not impressed with us.

My local station recently assaulted it's travellers with "Alpha Course" posters which said: "The meaning of life is _______" and "We can fill in the blanks".

1st: What makes you think that life has a "meaning"? Life has no meaning. This is a good thing.

2nd: What "blanks"?

Presumably, promising you on their website that you will go to "hell" (location undefined) if you do not follow "jesus" (existence hearsay only), as promised by the Alpha Course, is their way of giving your life "meaning".

Sorry. Sounds like a load of old codswallop put about by a bunch of cultist half-wits to me.

Nutt is either a) a troll supreme or b) an unfortunate victim of childhood indoctrination into dogma - a form of child abuse or c) a fool.

Exit.

How do you go about 'finding yourself' while abdicating responsibility for difficult decisions to some other entity?

Whats the difference between this;
[i]Say for example, something is troubling me, I have to make a choice and it is not an easy one to make, I will ask God for help.[/i]
and any other [i]God made me do[/i] it defence?

I'm sure various acts of terrorism have been committed in the name of various gods, by using exactly the same thought process.

In STW parlance, why not MTFU and take the decision and the responsibility on yourself?

Life has no meaning. This is a good thing.

you may have misheard...

Mr Nutt

I think it is an honourable thing to take the time to think about what life is about and finding faith if you can. I think that ther is a part of all of us that wants to worship something. For some this is god, for other allah, buddha, football, bikes, booze etc etc. There have been some terriblet hings done by people in the name of religion, which as pointed out earlier is differnt to faith. Different faiths require different things of you. the christian faith would say it is very difficult to have a faith by yourself, the need ot meet with others for encouragment and spedning time with poeple of the same faith is important.
I have enjoyed reading most of this thread, its a shame that some of the poeple on here think their viewpoint is more spuerior than others and as such feel the need to question their sanity and beliefs in put downs.
I am a christian and have been for many years, i struggle with aspects of it from time to time, but also have enough faith to carry on and believe it is worth carrying on with.

Discussions like this usually come back to those with a "scientific" mind to have some form of tangible evidence of God before they believe He exists. Whether they would accept he exists even in the face of hard evidence is another matter. Whilst I have a scientific understanding of a variety of things, I don't dismiss the possibility of there being a God.

Here's and interesting point - take a sample of leading mathematicians and ask them if infinity exists or not. Some say yes, they BELIEVE it does and others say not. Neither side can prove it one way or the other. To me, I see no problem with the concept of counting indefinitely. What we lack (besides time) is the language to describe such large numbers. Similarly, we lack the language to describe (or even comprehend) God.

This is where belief and faith come in. If we accept the possibility that God does exist, other aspects of our lives might have different meaning. In the same way, if we accept that infinity exists, it opens up avenues to other areas of science that don't stack up if infinity [u]doesn't[/u] exist.

Science and religion operate on different levels. While science depends on evidence, religion revolves around faith in something.

Ian

Brief reentry:

its a shame that some of the poeple on here think their viewpoint is [s]more spuerior[/s] correct

Fixed.

Bye.

[quote=Woppit]Exit.

[quote=Woppit]Brief reentry:

[quote=Woppit]Bye.

Happy Easter!!

Infinity isn't just big numbers, I recommend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity as a starter.

[i]Here's and interesting point - take a sample of leading mathematicians and ask them if infinity exists or not. Some say yes, they BELIEVE it does and others say not[/i]

It's probably best not to make up metaphors if your knowledge in that area is limited.

I was actually referring to a Horizon programme earlier in the year on the subject. That is what I recall. It struck me a the time that the existence of infinity was akin to a belief system.

Ah, probably best not to make up metaphors if your knowledge in that area is based on a programme off the telly from a while ago.

Fixed it for me.

Discussions like this usually come back to those with a "scientific" mind to have some form of tangible evidence of God before they believe He exists. Whether they would accept he exists even in the face of hard evidence is another matter.

This is a very good point. Lots of folks who claim they do not believe in a god, claim that it is because of a lack of evidence. They often lack the self awareness to see that theirs may be a belief system as well. I'd like to ask those same folks if they then believe in ESP.

Ah, probably best not to make up metaphors if your knowledge in that area is based on a programme off the telly from a while ago.

Why not? What's wrong with the telly? What would your knowledge have to be based on to make it valid? Some book you read a while ago? A sample of scientific journal papers which support your preconceived notion?

[i]Lots of folks who claim they do not believe in a god, claim that it is because of a lack of evidence[/i]

So what about the different gods?

Do Christians not believe in Allah because of a lack of evidence?

[i]Whether they would accept he exists even in the face of hard evidence is another matter.[/i]

The implication would seem to be that we are wilful children who are just being contrary... 🙄

ok, then Do you believe in ESP?

[i]What would your knowledge have to be based on to make it valid?[/i]

Um, a basic understanding of the concept? Like, for example, the idea that infinity isn't just the biggest number you can count to?

So what about the different gods?

Do Christians not believe in Allah because of a lack of evidence?

Ah, probably best not to get involved in arguments if your knowledge in that area is so weak.

Christians do believe in Allah

I love all the fixing of each other's posts on this thread. Very nice of everyone to do that.

Um, a basic understanding of the concept?

ok, but Would the telly not be a reasonable source for that understanding?

[i]Do Christians not believe in Allah because of a lack of evidence?[/i]

Ignore this question if it's tricky....

No, I don't, but as the subject of ESP is tested more, and those test results begin to show that it works, I would be able to change that view.

[i]Christians do believe in Allah[/i]

Really? To the extent that they worship him? In the way it says in the Koran?

Purely by chance I came across this on another forum today. Means something to some - to others the overdubbers will burn in hell...................

Warning - quite loud if at work

Hmmmm can't get embedding to work

[url=

LINK[/url]

... 😉

I seriously think that this goes some way to explaining the phenomenon of faith and worship more than any long drawn out waffle on a mountain bike forum..

praise be