[Closed] Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

I already made the point that you dont need permission from anyone to be a better person. I'll add to that by saying you dont need organised religion in order to attain that, either. However, as soon as anyone on here starts to talk about 'faith', it becomes a free for all and an excuse to belittle and insult people. I have never attempted to force my beliefs on anybody else, nor have I ever criticised anyone whose belefs differ from my own. (edit) I'm only too aware, as are most people, that the Catholic church has a lot to answer for regarding paedophilia, but lets be clear, these acts were never committed in the name of religion, the perpetrators simply hid behind their positions of power, and the church shamefully swept things under the carpet and did nothing.

Chapeau to the Op for an honest question into faith and its attendant problems.

I think the issues raised are massive and an open mind and thoughtful approach is warranted. I've got an awful lot from reading Kirkegaard, Nietzsche and a few others in the 'big hitters' camp, as well as C.S. Lewis from the Christian apologists.

I don't think the 'imaginary friend' angle is particularly helpful as it is neither particularly perceptive or a true reflection of theology nor is the 'atheists are moral too' oft quoted line. Neither are robust arguments and since our perception is such a flawed medium it is difficult to establish any fundamental truths about the world outside of our own heads.

Religion and Spirituality are not necessarily the same thing nor are they exclusive, explore them both with humility and an open mind a decide for yourself....

Here endeth the lesson, go in pieces...

I don't think the 'imaginary friend' angle is particularly helpful as it is neither particularly perceptive or a true reflection of theology

I think you will find it is.

nor is the 'atheists are moral too' oft quoted line

What do you mean by this?

Neither are robust arguments and since our perception is such a flawed medium it is difficult to establish any fundamental truths about the world outside of our own heads.

This is rubbish. A starving child has a perception of reality based on its empty stomach and the pain it feels. By saying that perception is flawed to in some way draw a parralel and legitimise faith is a bit poor really.

However, as soon as anyone on here starts to talk about 'faith', it becomes a free for all and an excuse to belittle and insult people

As before caller, who is belittling or insulting people? As far as I can see you are having a good go at doing so to surfer and me, I don't think either he nor I are doing so to the OP. simply pointing out the obvious flaws in his argument.

Actually I've just read this tosh

these acts were never committed in the name of religion

I'm am atheist, but more of an Anglican style one, tea and biscuits rather than burning religious tomes.

Life is like climbing Everest sometimes; all you can do is hang on and breathe. Every now and then you get to see what makes it 'worthwhile' as if we need something to make it so.

It's a glorious, messy, frustrating, disappointing, disasterous farce most of the time, but I can't see that having it explained by any form of religion, or using any form of 'faith' whatever that may be is going to make it any different.

Any even vaguely intellectual approach to religion and spirituality and faith would reveal the way religion has developed as a purely social construct; tribal societal rules to make my tribe better than yours.

I think if you go looking hard enough, you will find that there actually isn't anything there.

I am afraid that I am not having some navel gazing moderate as a best man and the invitation is revoked. Call me when you pulled yourself together.

Here endeth the lesson, go in pieces...

But yes spirituality and religion are two different things
- the former should be about faith whilst the latter tends to be about control and thus power and power corrupts...

mitch and other rational atheists, and you religious types that don't want to force it upon anyone else...
Come and join me in my humanist utopia.

It's gonna be grand I tell thee.

Come and join me in my humanist utopia.

[Prances through the orchard wearing finger-bells] Wait for meeeee

Religion - it's all a big comfort blanket. To me that's obvious.
Death? - you're not going to be eaten by worms and cease to exist
Suffering? - Pray, there's [i]someone[/i] listening
Stressed? - you don't need to talk to those little [i]friends[/i] of yours with their little helpful [i]words[/i]: There's [i]something[/i] much more powerful overlooking us all.
Directionless? - follow [i]these[/i] rules.
Lacking understanding? - This stuff was all [i]created[/i]
etc. etc. etc.

I was at a funeral last week of a bloke my own age who died of cancer. The vicar says "No-one can explain why he died"... and in the next breath "God knows how many hairs are on each of your heads". If that is not obviously comfort by fantasy, I don't know what is.

If that's what you wanna do Tominalis, and it's part of who you are, so be it...

Personally there's no place for hippy ship in my life.

humanism +1

b'mitch seems like he'd make a good a humanist too... you can be my plus one to TSY's party 😀

i suspect there's quite a lot of humanists on here that dont even realise it 😀

jsut one question TSY.... will there be jelly?

The imaginary friend tack is flawed in that perception of reality is a relative experience. If you rely solely on physical input to derive a image of the real then that is subject to all of the errors and tricks the mind and senses are capable of. It could be argued that a perception of god is a trick but by the same token perception of love is also a trick or even of touch, taste and ultimately logical process is merely the same trick - i.e. physical/ electro-magnetic reactions causing a false image in consciousness.

The 'atheists are moral' point I was making is that of course atheists can be 'moral' but in a hard-materialist structure those morals are utterly relative and, ultimately meaningless. You can have as many morals as you like but they are neither good nor evil, in fact they cease to be morals, they are just fabricated rules to make life more palatable, a comfort blanket like a god or ultimate reason. They may make a society work but only a specific form of society that has been deemed good for whatever reason that group has come up with.

The starving child analogy is a good one. Yes the child perceives the pain but in reductionist terms that pain is merely a series of nervous impulses, if we take this further, the child is a collection of fundamental particles reacting to one another it could be argued that the pain the child feels is the inevitable consequence of the universe existing at all and as to whether it carries any moral weight is neither here nor there - it simply is.

If we assume that there is no 'other state' of existence, the spiritual or the transcendent then we are left with a physical only world. If that is the case then morality, goodness or worth are all ultimately fabricated for our own satisfaction. If the starving child dies then nothing has changed, the world is ultimately the same, nothing has left, merely changed state.

Faith could be the perception of something else, outside of the material, or it could be a trick but both situations require us to address the nature of reality - or ignore the issue.

Personally there's no place for hippy ship in my life.

I shall place flowers in your hair and embellish your limbs with images of the sun in henna.

Ting ting ting ting...

you know that one grand you were going to spend in evans torm.... can i suggest you spend it on soap, a haircut and a suit so you can get a job you dirty hippy scum!!!!!

(i miss my dreadlocks... calling other people hippies felt better when i had dreads)

"these acts were never committed in the name of religion, the perpetrators simply hid behind their positions of power, and the church shamefully swept things under the carpet and did nothing."
Sorry, but I dont feel belittled. What I stated is in my mind, the truth. The religion is not going to take responsibility, no matter how much you or I feel it should. The acts committed had sod all to do with religion, the church and the position that these people were in simply allowed them to cover up what they were doing. And please, dont play the victim simply because I took objection to the manner in which you were trying to put your points across. Fair enough, you make it clear that you dont believe in God, etc, and that's fine and dandy, I really have no problem with that. What I do object to is the almost immediate reference to paedophilia, and the repeated use of the phrase 'imaginary friend' - which, and forgive me if I'm being overly sensitive, might just be seen as condescending?

b'mitch seems like a humanist too

Definitely.

i suspect there's quite a lot of humanists on here that dont even realise it

Absolutely.

Didn't even realise I was until it was pointed out to me. Citing SlaughterHouse5 as a massive influence might have been a clue though.

will there be jelly?

Yes, and not that rubbish stuff that you Mum put fruit in when you were a kid. It will be pure unadulterated jelly.

soap to work scheme? Might be hard to pull off.

I could however do with a haircut. A chap at work called me a hippy. I punched him. He doesn't think I am a hippy any more. 🙂

[i]If we assume that there is no 'other state' of existence, the spiritual or the transcendent then we are left with a physical only world. If that is the case then morality, goodness or worth are all ultimately fabricated for our own satisfaction[/i]

Precisely. And therefore the comfort blanket of "belief" is needed.
Morality, goodness and worth are all part of the human conscience. I have faith in my own mind.

The acts committed had sod all to do with religion, the church and the position that these people were in simply allowed them to cover up what they were doing.

I'm sorry but that is a cop out and a complete abdication of responsibility.

whilst you were praying and seeking spiritual enlightenment OP I think Monkeeknutz stole your stash and necked it.

nothing has left

It seems a strange argument to level at religious institution that they covered up child abuse. Either Catholicism is an evil, power grubbing, uber-club; in which case covering up this sort of thing is par for the course or it is just a load of people in which case I imagine they did what most criminals do and try to hide their crimes. Child abuse is no more prevalent in the Catholic church than in wider society, lots of people are horrid, religious or not.

We could say 'aren't people awful the way they try to cover up their atrocious activity'.

sorry TSY, whilst searching for a handy internet link to provide a concise description of humanism for the ones who aren't aware... i realised it specifies that its based in atheism and agnosticism, so i edited it.

funnily enough i realised the world of humanism through my exploration of the joseph cambell stuff me and torm were on about earlier in this thread 🙂

mum didnt put fruit in jelly when i was young 🙁 twas all razor blades and fish bones back in them days!

Life... that's a weird one... what makes that go then?

The point I was making was that physically nothing has changed, there are no more or less atoms, molecules, particles etc than there were before so what's changed? I agree life has ended but reality has only altered state not disappeared. One inter-reaction between physical entities has become another one, is this good, bad or indifferent?

DezB - faith in your own mind is no more or less irrational than faith in god then. If belief is necessary than fine and dandy but why is one thing better than another? Can we all have faith in your mind or is it every man for himself? And if my mind suggests something awful is moral can I go and do it with your blessing?

"I'm sorry but that is a cop out and a complete abdication of responsibility."
For whom? The individuals who commited the acts, and the people who assisted in covering up those acts, should all be tried and brought to justice. Where did I say otherwise?

Monkeynutz your contribution is nothing but obfuscation attemting to intelectualise the subject of faith.

Attempting to elevate your morals over that of an atheist is stagering considering adherents to the Catholic faith apparently get theirs from a reading of the first testament. The same text that advocates genocide, infanticide and group rape.

Fortunately modern day values and morals are derived from more than this hence our ability to determine "what is is good in the good book"
If these morals allow us to avoid war, treat each other equally and with dignity (something religions was so far been unable to do )then I will accept your definition that they are "meaningless" Successfull practical application makes them desirable over faith based ones any day.

phil - I'm going to do some research on the subject tonight.
I like the fact that you can be a humanist and accept that religion is in the nature of other humans and can so accept that they need it.
You can know that their is no 'higher being' but that the practice of religion and the ability to defer to something else is useful for some.

Come with me children, it's gonna be great.

erm..I'm not a Catholic, I suppose a practicing agnostic with theistic leanings, and I think the suggestion that I'm trying to elevate my morals over anyone is a little sensitive.

I think I'm trying to make the point that a hard materialist out look presents its own issues. What do you mean successful practical application? That species preservation is the dominant driving force in morality? If this is the case why not pursue hard line Utilitarianism and preserve our species with some rational weeding out of undesirable elements?

I'm curious as to how we, as a people, come to robust moral choices with out an ultimate reality and how we justify a universal reality.

As to the obfuscation in order to intellectualize a question of faith I counter that you are simply ignoring the ramifications of a materialist outlook to bolster a pretty poor philosophical stance.

[url= http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism ]Start HERE[/url] TSY.

although in addition to this "the heros journey" (dont remember it being longer than an hour long) about Joseph cambell is well worth investing a little time into, shame he died as i think he'd be a better spokesperson for humanism than dawkins who comes across as a little patronising at times and could do with stepping back emotionally from the subject when challenged.

Can you be a humanist if you don't like lots of people?

I've experimented a lot and believe I'm a hedonistic stoic.

Follow me....

[i]DezB - faith in your own mind is no more or less irrational than faith in god then. If belief is necessary than fine and dandy but why is one thing better than another? Can we all have faith in your mind or is it every man for himself?[/i]

Blimey, I guess you are mixing it up with the higher being thing. Must be confusing for you!

loved reading your post monkeenutz, very well thought out!

Can you be a humanist if you don't like lots of people?

iDave, I barely like anyone 😆 But I do believe that there is an intrinsic good in many, even those I find intolerable.

They're all welcome in my, errr, 'church' though.

Can you be a humanist if you don't like lots of people?

I've experimented a lot and believe I'm a hedonistic stoic.

Follow me....

I'm in idave, with the proviso that it doesn't harm anyone or impact negatively on other living things and I don't have to sleep with you!

course you can iDave 😀 i hate people, the thought of other humans makes this pathetic-human-skin-meat that surrounds my inner-being crawl.

but i'm a humanist, with maybe a leaning towards awesomism

I think Monkeeknutz is spot on and has explained his thoughts learly enough.
Unfortunately the ones who could do with thinking about some of the points made tend to talk rather than listen.
Good luck to the OP though and at least the subject was discussed for a little while before the bell rang for playtime. 🙂

Sigh.... I'm not trying to convert anyone or make out that god definitely exists but point out that materialism and atheism have some issues that need addressing before we can start slinging round phrases like 'imaginary friend' and people with a 'faith' are all swivel eyed cretins.

And I've definitely not mixed you up with a higher being. 😀

I was always a questioning agnostic. Married a Christian (in a church) and was quite happy to embrace the church, but perhaps not in the same way she did due to her being brought up in a Christian household, but I was willing to be shown that there was something in it.

One month after our wedding she was diagnosed with breast cancer, two years later she died.

After a great deal of soul searching with her family (mine aren't religious), clinical depression, attempted suicide and finally the removal of my head from up my arse I am now a fully paid up Atheist.

If there is a god, how can a god that is supposed to love us (his children) keep destroying our lives? I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who, when something bad happens think exactly this, personally I cannot let myself believe this. If I do, it eats me up inside and all I do is hate something that, to be honest, isn’t worth my time and energy hating. So, as a result, I am spiritually devoid.

It is only human to try and find a reason for something that happens that cannot be explained, In reality, shit happens. To you, to me, to small children, to innocent mothers walking in the park, sometimes there is no rhyme or reason as to why bad things happen.

And, and this is a big AND, if there is a god why would I want to align myself to something that lets all this shit happen. And please don't insult me by giving me all that nonsense about free will and choice, it is an excuse for religious leaders to pass the buck. I often joke with friends that I want to be buried with a baseball bat, because if there is a god out there somewhere, I’m after him big style

In response to the OP's question about MTFU, I let myself believe for too long that something or someone had it in for me and that I had done something, or my wife had done something that had let this happen. As I said before, shit happens. It isn’t a case of MTFU, you just learn to accept it. I’m pretty much at peace with the world, ok, I still have a few issues, but they are usually with tangible physical beings (I hate politicians), not your imaginary friend,

On a slightly more humorous point, I’ve been lucky enough to meet someone else who I think the world of and who thinks the world of me. But, if there is a god and heaven and all that, my wife will already be there. I’m an Atheist so I’m not going at all. My GF is a Christian, so she’s going to be up there too at some point. Being a bit big headed, neither one of them would want to spend eternity without me, so do I get a guest pass or something? And if I do, do I spend a week with each, how will it work? I bet the two of them will talk about me behind my back anyway!!

Child abuse is no more prevalent in the Catholic church than in wider society, lots of people are horrid, religious or not

Life... that's a weird one... what makes that go then?

I counter that you are simply ignoring the ramifications of a materialist outlook to bolster a pretty poor philosophical stance.

My argument is edit: NOT materialistic and my interest is in the practical application of faith, the ramifications that that has on society. The misplacing of wealth and disproportionate respect and power we allow to its followers. I might add the impact that it has on the welfare of mankind given its ability to stymie embryonic research etc.

By trying to make it into a philosophical argument, which you have done just clouds the issues that we face today, I am not interested in debating an afterlife and the fervent followers of faith seem to agree given their attempts to gain both economic and political power on earth as oppose to waiting !

Why did you refer to atheist morals as "meaningless" as an agnostic where is your frame of reference?(although how that can be practiced eludes me)

I like that fact that everyone is just talking about 'the god' which (from the way it's worded) would be the Abrahamic one true god (allegedly).

Where's the room for Vishnu or his more recognisable avatar Harry Krishna, Shiva,
what about the old relgion such as Odin, Thor, the Dagda or Brigid, - all this ties in a lot more with Campbell's hero with a thousand faces.

Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists...

I think mavisto's post sums up the arguments going on in this thread quite well; bad things happen to good people and sadly none of it makes any sense in the grand scheme of things.

I love this thread, every month it pops up and causes no end of mischief and everyone leaves it believing exactly what they always believed. I'm planning to recant my atheism on my death bed FTW.

Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists...

Why?

MrNutt - reading the bible on it's own can be hard work sometimes.

I'd recommend these two books as being very good reads:

[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blokes-Bible-Dave-Hopwood/dp/1850787123 ]The Bloke's Bible by Dave Hopwood
[/url]

and

[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shack-Wm-Paul-Young/dp/0340979496 ]The Shack by Wm Paul Young[/url]

Ian

I like that fact that everyone is just talking about 'the god' which (from the way it's worded) would be the Abrahamic one true god (allegedly).

You may want to include those who believe in a "god" however as an atheist its immaterial to me what god other people beleive in.

I was initialy interested as all cultures and human civilistaions have some form of God /religion/diety.There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove.

DaRC_L... i was hoping someone would bring this up but reluctant to myself as i didnt want an already imflammatory thread to explode by mentioning other religions :S

Or the humanists might want to look at Universal Unitarianism and what does String Theory hold for the atheists...

one of the things i like about most humanists i've met is that some of them are open minded enough to challenge their veiws/lack of views 🙂

quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with i think, especially as most atheists i've spoken to rely heavily on the word of current scientific knowledge as if its the gospel truth... dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol.

one of the most appealing things about Joseph Cambell is that he made a point of reminding everyone that both religion and science are trying to interpret the world around them and as science develops, ideas change and our level of understanding does. unfortunately a lot of atheists are as closed minded as they accuse the religious of being and forget that their understanding of the world should develop and change as scientific evidence dictates.

i love quantumn stuff, it sets my brain alight and makes me constantly re-think my views on the world/space around me... the one thing it doesnt challenge though is my view on mankind, that will hopefully continue to change and develop as i grow.

"dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol."
What a beautiful thought 😆

Junkyard - Member
I was initialy interested as all cultures and human civilistaions have some form of God /religion/diety.There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove

🙂 you know when something seems like complete common sense and you dont know why someone hasn't made a point of it before that you're aware of...

well that's the "finally... how could anyone argue differently now someone's bothered to gather evidence for this simple blinding truth" moment i experience when i got into Joseph Cambell. He's written lots of stuff, but "the hero with a thousand faces" is definitely the book for you sir

[i]dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol.[/i]

If Darwin was wrong we'd still be flicking Holy water at people and exorcising them. Don't forget, atheists can be nurses too.

There seesm to be something in the human condition /psyche that means we seek meaning /patterns everywhere and we have to have a reason for everything/ God/religion/ deities are a simple one to create but very difficult to counter /disprove

Now I'm not saying that Scientology is a religion, because having read the actual history L Ron Hubbard, it is obviously the dellusions of a third rate Sci Fi writer, but it just goes to show what can be created from the mind of one man, believed by a few misguided people, and now cannot be disproved!

Cheers Phil - will try and get it from the library. I used to call people hippy when I had my dreads 🙄

quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with

I think even quantum physicists struggle with this but what exactly do you think they have found that proves god. Confusion?

dawkins, despite his protests, would probably end up in a hospital being looked after by me and b'mitch if science proved darwin wrong lol

BS he is a scientist he would accept the evidence if it existed. Does it? Science can do paridigm shifts only those of faith, cannot have their opinion altered by facts and evidence - ah well at least both sides are mocking each other now.

If Darwin was wrong we'd still be flicking Holy water at people and exorcising them. Don't forget, atheists can be nurses too.

not quite sure how to read into that post, maybe im sleepy but it feels like i've perhaps presented myself as saying drwin was wrong?

i'm not saying darwin was wrong 🙂 just trying to think of an example to make my point.

(if it helps I'm an atheist humanist and my entire right leg is tattooed with sea creatures that show the evolution of the ocean.... i'm a firm "believer" in evolution, but then again, if science proved it wrong in the future i'd like to think i was open minded enough to entertain a new school of thought)

Well we've not wandered too far off topic it seems! This entire process of religious investigation is one I consider to be healthy, Since taking the initial steps towards considering my faith in a manner that is both honest and personal to me I have been feeling a lot more positive about making changes for "the good", I don't doubt that every man is prone to evil acts and history proves that absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Bible appears to provide numerous examples of such, to believe someone with Faith who is follower of a Religion to be exempt from evil is foolish to say the least, everyone is but human.

I am following this path, taking this journey, what ever you wish to call it, in order to hopefully discover in me something that I have long believed to exist but was more than willing to ignore, belittle or denounce.

I'm not sure where this will lead me but so far I'm enjoying the process and feeling the benefit both emotionally & spiritually.

oh and you can stay the **** away from me with those bloody fingerbells you mincers!!! I'm off to read some more of the old fire n brimstone! its, erm, biblical! 😀

I think even quantum physicists struggle with this but what exactly do you think they have found that proves god. Confusion?

nothing that i've been made aware of... jsut wanted to take the opportunity to point out that a lot of atheists are as stuck in their veiws as the religious people they then mock.

BS he is a scientist he would accept the evidence if it existed. Does it?

i'm sure he would...a very clever scientist he is too and i've enjoyed everything i've read by him for that reason. and again, no i dont think there is any evidence to say evolution doesnt exist.

i must have really written my post badly 🙁

sorry MrNutt, back to the OP.. good luck 🙂

anyone trying to change themselves for the better has my respect.

Mr Nutt,

Sorry for the question, but do you think that by having faith in a religion (for want of a better description), that your luck may change or that you may find a meaning for your life?

I don't want to stop you from reading the bible, but I'm not sure you will find the answers there. For one, it is not an easy book to read and as so many scholars have found, it is open to huge misinterpretation. If you want to read and try and understand it, go to one of the Christian bookshops and get some of the guides that are available. They at least cut through the Thees and Thous and Therefores and try to make it understandable in plain English.

Also for balance, try Dawkins 'The God Dellusion'. I also found that heavy going and needed a dictionary to look up some of the words he used.

I don't mind belles on my finger...

SoouthernYeti I just thought the UU might be a safe haven for the non-atheist/agnostic humanist.

The Bible is a good history of the accumulated wisdom of the Levantine people but it was essentialy edited by a series of men over a large period of time and often influenced by the politics of the time.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that religion brings we'd have no civilisation.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that civilisation brings we'd have no religion.

I would say that expressions of spirituality are a reliable sign that civilisation has advanced to a point at which basic needs are met and people can start worrying about less important stuff than the next meal.

However, it can be strongly argued that without the unity that religion brings we'd have no civilisation.

I'm sorry, but religion does not bring unity. That comment is so misguided.

Religion has brought nothing but disunity, from Herod to the present day.

The fear that religion instils in people maybe, but not religion.

[i]but religion does not bring unity[/i]
+ eleventy.

All the major religions are exclusive, belying their roots as a tribal based societal control method rather than the word of a supernatural being.

Hope y'all choose the right one......

I though Darc and crikey made good points.
It brings unity wioth tribal neighbours as you are now brothers and share the same dad. yes this bigger entity eventually clashes with another civilisation but it unifies huge numbers first.

Can any Westerner be truly religious? Is it not written in the Bible (the new bit that we all like not the old fire and brimstone bit) that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle?

Now I'm no expert on Theology but I think jeebus was being pretty literal here based on him living a frugal life and all that. I think he did mean that to all intents and purposes rich people are essentially wearing trainers viz a viz gods policy re heavenly admissions.

Now I understand that 90% of the worlds wealth is in the US and Western Europe etc and therefore we here are all, what I think it's fair to say, jeebus would have regarded as rich men. On that basis I think to be a proper christian with a good chance of getting into heaven anyone claiming a strong faith should be punting their goods, sorting out a local charity with the proceeds and heading off to do unpaid work for the rest of their lives.

Isn't it a bit hypocrital to claim faith when no-one really goes for the most basic tennets of the faith they claim to subscribe to?

[i]Isn't it a bit hypocrital to claim faith when no-one really goes for the most basic tennets of the faith they claim to subscribe to?[/i]

You're not meant to take it literally, apparently....

That's why Anglicans don't stone people.

Yes it simply refers to any manufacturers of dairy products I expect.

Now I understand that 90% of the worlds wealth is in the US and Western Europe etc

I thought we were all in trillions of debt, which if the scales are to balance, we must owe to someone - the spiritual East perhaps ?

I'm sorry, but religion does not bring unity. That comment is so misguided.

Going back further a similar thing can be argued with the Egyptian, Hittite and other early civilisations.

Would civilisation have occurred without religion? It's difficult to argue as archaeologists see religion in society from the earliest times.

[i]Would civilisation have occurred without religion?[/i]

As above, civilisation is required way before religion.

Civilisation isn't about roads and temples, it's about having enough to eat and shelter and water. Then, when you've actually got time to worry about 'what's it all about, y'know, really' religion can develop.

Man invented God through fear of the unexplained, as it could not accept that a persons life on this earth (with all the memories of events which happened during their lifetime) gets suddenly terminated, and your body just rots in the ground for worms to feed on. Bit of an anti-climax really.

So they invented the concept of a 'soul', which goes onto a 'better place'.

So they invented the concept of a 'soul', which goes onto a 'better place'.

Or so that you could be subject to an eternity of punishment if you didn't play by 'this life' rules?

Monkeeknutz Wins, Surfer erm... second

Good luck MrNutt, changing a long held viewpoint can be tough.

If you want suggestions then try a couple of different translations of the bible as well. Sometimes just seeing something said in a slightly different way can help.

If you go for IanB's suggestion of 'The Shack' then also be prepared just to put it down. It's not my cup of tea either but again it is another way of looking at things that can change your picture of faith.

Folks here have separated faith and religion - good idea. Religion can help but it can clearly get in the way as well. Try different 'flavours'. I know this can be a cue for people to relive some of their bad experiences in these places but there are also good ones. Finding a community of like minded folks isn't necessary but it can help and it doesn't need to be a church.

quantumn physics opens up a whole world that atheism would struggle with

I think you need to remember that quantum theory is not an explanation of reality. It is a statistical methodology for making predictions. If an experiment takes two measurements at two different times, it can say what happens at t2 given t1, but it can say nothing about what happens in between t1 and t2.

It has of course provide devastatingly useful as a tool, but in terms of explanatory powers of what reality actually is, it says nothing.

I refer you to tonights episode of the Simpsons.. although I have to concede that the coincidence of this programme being screened at the same time as this topic being discussed may well be an act of god... or dog.. or something

mavisto i'm not exploring this for personal gain, more an insight to if faith is the right thing for me, more specifically the Christian faith, it may be a result of my schooling although it was never forced down our throats the CoE was part of it, that said my father is an athiest and my mother agnostic, neither my younger brother or sister practice any form of faith let alone religion. I am doing this for me, i'm talking about it because i think it helps to hear different view points 🙂

Oh well. Here we are again.

The Bible and other ancient texts were written by people who were trying to explain what they experienced around them, who were not yet advanced enough to know what germs were and thought plagues were a sign that "god" was angry with them. Some variants thought that sacrificing people would do the trick, but it didn't seem to make any difference, so they killed more and more people and still it didn't make any difference.

The obvious reason for this never occurred to them.

Personally, I see absolutely no reason to try and find meaning in a bunch of fairy tales made up ny ignorant bronze-age tribes who throught the sun was a personality, rather than a continuous nuclear reaction in space.

I was surprised to find that it took until page four, for the unread and muddle-headed amongst us to attack Richard Dawkins with the sort of personal piss-take which they always complain about if it is directed at themselves.

Obviously, with regard to arguably the most significant author of the new century so far, they have no argument worth a damn.

Mr Nutt - stop wasting your time. Either that, or get back to us when you find any evidence of religion's claims being true.

You will have overturned thousands of years of failure by the religious to do this, and your nobel prize will be waiting.

PS: By the way, Nutt old boy -regarding your chosen cult - you do know that there is no actual evidence that the alleged Nazarene ever existed and is nothing more than a story that someone made up, don't you?

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