[Closed] Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

I find it very hard to overcome my inner sceptic

only thing i'd like to suggest is to watch "the heros journey" - Wiki description:

The Hero's Journey (film): A Biographical Portrait—This film, made shortly before his death in 1987, follows Campbell's personal quest—a pathless journey of questioning, discovery, and ultimately of delight and joy in a life to which he said, "Yes"

Then it might inspire you to read "the hero with a thousand faces" by Joseph Cambell (as i did), or watch a 10 part series called "the power of myth" with him in....

what i've suggested above will not put you off anything you come to believe in as a result of your journey, but it may open up your journey and/or compliment it 🙂

used to be quite against religion and a lot of what i associated with it and thought it stood for, but what i mentioned above turned me around and changed my perception of religion and humankind for the better i'd say

good luck with your journey

I went the reverse route, started with the faith and church stuff, to quite a good standard, maybe like semi-pro believer. However life has taught me that it's pretty much made up and 'teaching' changes as suits the establishment - whatever group of believers you align yourself to. And within churches have been the most manipulative, cruel, passive aggressive, hypocritical, ignorant bunch I've ever had the misfortune to meet. Yes there are some 'lovely' people, with some kindness, but many of them are damaged and your problems are a concern so they can avoid their own problems. Personally never felt so happy and content as when I left that kind of thing behind many years ago and flew solo.

Sure have some philosophy about how you'd like to live your life, but Seneca makes more sense than any religion I've come across.

You appear to be approaching it with an open mind although "[i]this is the beginning of a journey into faith[/i]" appears to suggest one route. Will you be having a look at other 'faiths' ?

Good luck with the journey, however and I hope you find some answers, inner peace, contentment or whatever it is you hope to find.

However, in times of great strain or desperation, which in my life there have been a few, I do pray, to whom I don't know, but it does give me comfort. And that to me is the basis of a Faith.

Sounds like you are already a Catholic. No need for the Old Testament. There is little in there which relates to New God. That covenant was put asside with the arrival of Christ and a new Covenant was made. All back so square one.

Nothing particularly wrong with religion, so long you can separate it from the wrong things that religious people do.

Will you be having a look at other 'faiths' ?

This is a good point, the 'journey into faith' is not a single track

(see what i did there?)

+1 Joseph Campbell.

Can also recommend 'The Road Less Travelled' by M Scott Peck as an insightful and illuminating read on the nature of ourselves, Grace and life in general. Not religious but certainly (in parts) a rumination on the spirit.

I find that the bible is split into 2 distinct sentiments..

The ones where Jesus says follow your heart, stay true to yourself, love all men.
And then there is the subtext which says 'do what Jesus does or you're going to hell!'

I am not sure the bile [EDIT: accidental spelling mistake which I cannot bring myself to correct!] would be the first place I would start if looking for truth.

I was raised a Catholic. I am now athiest.

so long you can separate it from the wrong things that religious people do.

I'm not entirely sure that this is possible, afterall many of the more damaging things that relious people do is done in the name of religion.

Why not have a look at what else is out there as well? The Buddhist Dhammapada is full of uplifting stuff, and quite relevant in itself imho, rather than just in the context of an organized & exclusive "religion".

I'm a little confused by the OP.
Do you mean you want to belive in a God and are looking at Christianity, you belive in Christianity and their God and are looking further into it or you are looking some answers and have started with Christianity?

Oh yeah, watch Zeitgeist the movie as well, though only the first third in respect of religious matters.

Then become a sun worshipper.

as torm may be also typing whilst i write this and end up with us both posting the same thing.... the joseph cambell stuff will definitely keep your mind open enough to consider other faiths or none in an all embracing type way... hard to describe.

In my work I visit a lot of families at home, and spend a few hours with them. Living in the West Midlands a lot of the families I visit are Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Jew and Buddhist, with a few Jains and Zoroastrians in the mix too. The occassional Christian, but they never seem to pronounce their faith as much.

What I have noticed is that they are all fundamentally the same. Their religions are mostly based around respect for authority, do unto others as you would be done to, respect for each other, follow the outward and inward disciplines and badges of your faith. Then there is the health & safety bit - don't eat pork, don't marry your sister.

Then last of all seems to be the "what happens when you die bit", which is where it all goes a bit wooly in my opinion, but there again, I'm of the opinion that when you die the lights go off.

It seems to me that all of the eastern faiths have a figure that people young and old can look to to give a moral and spiritual lead.

And we've got that gormless bloke with a straggly beard Rowan Atkinson or some such.

Much lapsed catholic here. I still have 'faith', whatever that means, but am more than able to see the way that some people manipulate organised religion to make it fit their version of the truth or use it for their own ends. I hope this thread doesnt turn into another excuse to belittle people, and sincerely hope, mrnutt, you find some answers or comfort on your journey. Just remember, you dont need permission from anyone to be a 'good person'.

No one has mentioned "Life of Brian" ?!?

I'll certainly look out the Joseph Campbell stuff, cheers for that folks.

Having been schooled CoE although my family is non religious I guess my ideas of Faith were sown then. I'm not sure on Catholicism as I struggle with the imagery.

I was pretty keen on Buddhism in my teens but found I was more like Jack Kerouac than the Dali Llama!

Oh and I also enjoyed the Wickerman but I'm rubbish at basket weaving!

Back-slidden Christian here,I am really enjoying this,thus far, reasonable thread.

I'm not entirely sure that this is possible, afterall many of the more damaging things that relious people do is done in the name of religion

Yeah, but i don't think that's the religion, it's people using religion as an excuse. probably

Just ride your bike more and go on a mountain bike skills course. Getting better at riding will make you feel loads better about life, the universes and everything.

Nailing a sweet bit of singletrack in the countryside with great views and great friends is way better than chasing fictional beliefs.

It is real and you can actually do it, you dont have to pretend.

Before this Thread turns into the usual STW religion bashing...

I'd suggest to read John then follow that up with Acts...

Then if your still interested in Christianity look for an [url= http://uk.alpha.org/ ]Alpha course[/url] in your local area (its a non pressured course to give as many annoying questions as possible with the choice to leave it or follow it up).

On my MSc I did a three week module called "Where science meets spirit". There is a fabulous book called Pythagoras' Trousers, and this presents the way in which scientists have, and still do, see physics as the route to discovering ---. I do not personally enjoy the word "god" since it comes loaded with so much baggage, and for me, limitations. I prefer the word Tao - and built into this definition of Tao is this "That which is the Tao is not the Tao" i.e. you simply can not use words to describe the ineffable.

The thing for me is that while many physicists are searching for "fundamental particles" many other physicists wonder if there is a deeper reality underlying the one we are able to access via our senses.

For me, I have taken a shamanic path, and had incredible vistas of consciousness open up to me and experienced radically quantitatively different states of consciousness to our normal ones in waking and sleeping life.

But you go for it, there is so much to explore out there. If you are looking for observations, my main one would be why limit yourself to the Bible when you have Tao, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American spirituality, shamanism, and all sorts of ways which for me all have a piece of the puzzle.

All the best

You're "brave" posting that on here! Some of the atheists here are very vitriolic. I'm pretty chilled but they even manage to upset me! By all means email me for a private chat.

BTW. good on you for trying to improve yourself, however you choose to do it

I would request that this thread does not turn into the usual bickering to be honest, by all means post up your thoughts, suggestions & beliefs but do try and lay off on the bickering please folks, there's a good lot eh?

And if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?

Nailing a sweet bit of singletrack

Yes but who created it, if anyone?
Why is it there?
Is there a reason or purpose to me riding it?
Will there be singletrack in heaven?
Is there a heaven?
Is it all uphill fire-road on a s/s in hell?
Is there a hell?
etcetcetcetc.

It is not necessarily chasing a 'belief' more a a realisation or 'coming to terms' with being at peace/happy or whatever it is that you want for yourself or others. How that happens, if it ever does is entirely with the individual concerned.

Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Jew and Buddhist, with a few Jains

Reminded of Donovan

you simply can not use words to describe the ineffable

this has echoes of the muslim belief that you cannot attribute to him (God) characteristics in human language.

any introspection and re-evaluation of our selves is a good thing. Being a bit more consious of our actions is surly a good thing. 'Good' faith imo answers all of this, teaches us to live better and not focus on tickets to heaven too much. there are lots of non religious, some might say 'new age' thinkers out there that are worth a look. the two that spring to mind are Ekhart Tole (sp?) 'the power of now', and Ram Das (pre dr richard alpert).
faith is such a personal thing with which i think it is our duty to challenge and ask difficult questions.
i lived as a monk for several years in india (sort of family tradition/take time out to suss your self out a bit) and saw and experienced things which totally blew my mind/conceptions, plus i had trustworthy people to guide me when i needed it. but that was my journey, and preaching doesn't sit comfortably with me. i like to look to those who show by example.
good luck on yours.

if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?

FTFU - friend the F up.

if you lead a life in which you make an effort to be nice to those around you, go out of your way to support the people you love (not forgetting to improve yourself through reflection and making a concerted effort to better yourself) then friends tend to come to the rescue when you need them most.

as much as the militant/closed minded athiests give athiests a bad name... there are some of us who are as nice to others as religious people try to be 🙂

@ Charlie

Well I am hoping perceive my comments as not critical or lowering the tone. But there is a whole philosophy based on the study of meaning. Words for me are so limited in their ability to represent reality, and yet many people who have a religious book do not seem to have the same problems with interpretation of their books as I do.

That is why I prefer active practicies such as yoga, meditation, shamanic journeying etc, which are based on your own experience as opposed to having someone tell you in words how it is.

The most enlightened person I ever met, and received darshan from, Mother Meera, never spoke. Says it all really.

On the shamanic path, you go through the shattering of your ego, which is one of the most terrifying things ever, but it really tells you so much about how you construct your own world. It is why I am such a fan of the late David Bohm who created a physical framework of unbroken wholeness, rather than a particle view of reality.

And if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?

I'm not sure what you mean here but I assume that you are asking what happens when it all gets too much? Well have a good cry, talk to family and friend that sort of thing. Speaking to, what I consider, a non existant deity seems odd from an athiest perspective.

[Internet clogs under weight of millions of simultaneous report-post hits]

I thought it was going to be along the lines of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance but was bitterly dissapointed.

The most enlightened person I ever met, and received darshan from, Mother Meera, never spoke. [b]Says it all really.[/b]

Simon - that is genius 😉

Whoops - but I know what I meant even if I can't say it 😳

spiritual life is a bit like ridged single speeding; it will break you at first, and on paper makes no sense at all. but when it comes together its simple, relies on a different way of thinking, physical/environmental awareness is a must, the humbleness to walk now and again and reliance on the material world is minimum.
i do have a beard, long hair, live in a yogurt weaving community and ride a 29er btw.

I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?

Atheist here. Some things take time to come to terms with but I find that accepting that random things happen to people and that these are not a part of a plan or punishment means that they are easier to cope with and makes accepting them and moving on easier. Is acceptance and moving on mtfu'ing? Not sure, but I suspect it might be.

I suppose that death is high in the list of difficult to cope with events but ultimately I know that everyone I love will die, some will live long happy fulfilled lives others may die an untimely and painful deaths. Equally, either could happen to me. To me it's just dumb luck and I can accept that. The idea that such events could be part of a divine plan would make them harder to deal with as it raises the question of why.

Nailing a sweet bit of singletrack

Yes but who created it, if anyone?

Badgers or deer 😉

I think it's important to dissociate faith and religion.

The former is the core belief that there is more than you see before you.

The latter is a set of rules designed to "explain" your faith.

I respect the former, and have little time for the latter. Make sure you explore as much of the former as possible, before settling (if at all) on whichever of the latter you prefer.

(I have no faith, and certainly no relgious conviction.)

And if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?

Talk to actual people? Go for a bike ride? And in the words of Billy Pilgrim... 'So it goes...'

well said ourmaninthenorth.

Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Jew and Buddhist, with a few Jains

Reminded of Donovan

and the odd Zoroastrian - that would be Freddy Mercury then.

Faith and religion are poles apart.

Religion is something you are told to do. It is structured and often carries threats about what will happen if you don't follow the "rules". Religion is also heavily manipulated by those seeking power or seeking to hold onto power. It is often used as a tool of oppression. There are some very decent people in most major religions, and there is no question that some people draw an enormous amount of comfort from their religion. However there are many who seek to improve their own position at the expense of others. Sacred texts are interpreted or twisted to mean the complete opposite. This is the big problem. As someone said earlier, the teachings in the New Testament are pretty sound really. It's all about love and respect for fellow humans. A good chunk of tolerance and forgiveness in there too. The Catholic church seems to have missed the point entirely. Millions starve, yet the Catholic church is an incredibly wealthy organisation. I don't see how they can reconcile this. Likewise suicide bombers being promised more virgins than you can shake a stick for an eternity of debauchery in paradise doesn't quite fit with my understanding of Islam.

Faith is completely different and has nothing to do with happy clappers or suicide bombers. Faith is something inside you that you "just know". It can't be proved, hence the name. I don't particularly have much truck with "organised" religion but am quite comfortable with my own faith.

A proper troll if I may say so!

If you want to go and find your god, keep it to yourself, there's a good chap! 😀

the study of sanskrit texts, by its own construction, is designed to be personally translated. this is totally accepted in india. i'm sure the same should be applied to any religious writing.

talk to people, yes, I do that, but often I find that it only helps with the symptoms and not tackle the cause.
Sometimes life presents choices, often the easiest ones are the worst possible options and in moments of weakness it can be to easy to succumb to your personal failings.

Now as an example I have in the past seen myself fall towards the easiest, most harmful option, not because I wasn't aware that what I was doing was both wrong and harmful but because I felt lost and wanted a quick fix.

In a faith, currently of my own learning (as mentioned I'm not being preached to or blindly accepting anything, I'm questioning everything!) I do feel as though I could have the strength to do better, to live better and to ultimately be better.

But as I have already said, this is a journey, one of my own, one step and one day at a time, its bound to get rough sometimes but its better than the alternative!

have you got your eyes on a few alter boys then...
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The only thing Roman about me is my nose, and that's cos its roamin all over my face!

I strongly suspect there is more to life than the mundane world we see around us, but I'm never going to believe that the meaning of life, the universe and everything was exclusively revealed to some bloke in the Middle East to be passed on to the rest of us second hand.

There are many religions or faiths. Don't just pick the one with the best marketing.

oh I'm not, I understand marketing and can see through a lot of smoke n mirrors, this is a path, a life long journey I would expect, I know I have Faith, I just need to learn more to determine what is right for me. It's probably one of the most interesting challenges a man can take up...

what tires for God? Holy Rollers? 😉 😀

Try exploring Humanism.

Spongebob +1

I strongly suspect there is more to life than the mundane world we see around us

Dont know who you mean by "we" but dont count me in. Its anything but mundane to me.

TSY I find that my faith in humanity tends to be toppled on a daily basis!

Its anything but mundane to me.

Quite.

And if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?

I'm an atheist and I just tend to take the attitude that if I don't MTFU nobody else is going to do it for me. If this sounds over simplistic I can only say that I certainly don't think that a faith in some wider spiritual belief system will help me out of hard times. Good luck and hard work are all that counts when things are stacked against you.

I don't have any experience of organised religion having skillfully avoided it all my life so I wouldn't want to make any sweeping comments about the relative merits of different religious views. All I will say is that religion has always appeared very alien and very very outmoded to me. Witness the Popes recent comments regarding his tacit acceptance of condoms and the oppresive treatment of women that some religions seem to tolerate. Religion seems to be a very ancient social and political control mechanism that struggles to find a place, or value, in the modern world.

My view is that the most important decisions in life are normally the hardest ones to take and the easy answer or solution to any problem is very rarely the right one. If you want to be a better person the simplest thing you can do is be more open minded about the opportunities that you come across and to be more accepting in your dealings with other people. Why not try some voluntary work? Its a vastly under rated way of doing some good in some small way and it is very rewarding on an emotional level.

MrNutt - it may be all there is though...

MrNutt

Now as an example I have in the past seen myself fall towards the easiest, most harmful option, not because I wasn't aware that what I was doing was both wrong and harmful but because I felt lost and wanted a quick fix.

If you want absolution for making decision that you know at the time are wrong and harmfull. Then religion may be for you.
On the other hand I try not to make those poor choices however the responsibility for these choices is mine alone.
It sounds to me as if you are looking to be rescued from things for which you have responsibility.

Meaning of Life?

We are engaged in an endless Darwinian relay race with the object of handing the baton on to our offspring with the biggest advantage we can give them. No more no less.

Of course advantage is a word that open to all sorts of interpretation 😉

"at 36, as a debauched "sinner", whom for years has felt at odds with the world, who has sought solace in drink, drugs, women & and pretty much everything else available in excess, I actually think I am taking the first tentative steps to heal the scars and become a better man."

I have no religion. I set (within the context of the society I live in) my own rules and standards. I decide who I wish to be. Some people believe you cannot have standards and decency or be a good or better person unless you have a religion. The expectation is to need to have a god to fear or to please so you 'have' to keep to the rules - or go to hell when dead etc.

Its not true. Anyone can be a good person, a better person, without a god. Its a question of choice. Who do you want to be? Set your own rules and be a decent person just for yourself, for your own satisfaction and pride.

Many people seem to turn to a god when leaving additions of drugs, alcohol, abusive situations etc (not implying you are one of these). Maybe it works for them, but its exchanging one addiction/obsession for another and finding another place to hide, rather than dealing with the 'why' of why you do things you are not happy with and having the inner personal strength to step away from them without still leaning on a prop.

Whatever, I hope your life goes well.

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an imaginary friend then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

[i]if you're an atheist, fair enough, I'd be interested to know what you do when you simply can't MTFU?[/i]

I used relax by going to my allotment and tend the vegetables, but the guy who owns the plot next to me has started digging up my spuds and claiming their his, and it's all got a bit fraught.

what gives me strength to make the right choices

You have to admit that its a bit of a worry if yer imaginary friend tells you to start buggering choirboys though?

surfer & goon

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mundane

mun·dane? ?
[muhn-deyn, muhn-deyn]
–adjective
1.
of or pertaining to this world or earth as contrasted with heaven; worldly; earthly: mundane affairs.
2.
common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative.
3.
of or pertaining to the world, universe, or earth.

I used the word as number 1.
I share your opinion that the world of natural wonders doesn't fit with number 2.

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an imaginary friend then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe your dignity and intellectual backbone but thats up to you.

I used the word as number 1.

contrasted with heaven? oh ok then 🙄

"Maybe your dignity and intellectual backbone but thats up to you."
Why do threads like this always come down to condescension and petty abuse? If someone expresses faith or a belief in something that you dont share, why does it make them intellectually inferior to you? Live and let live FFS.

If someone expresses faith or a belief in something that you dont share, why does it make them intellectually inferior to you? Live and let live FFS.

I didnt actually say it did. I answered this question.

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an imaginary friend then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

Which I stand by and applies to anyone who is prepared to "cover their bases" in such a way.

I also really hope this doesnt turn into the usual STW bashing.

Mr Nutt I think its really refreshing to see such honesty, perhaps thats why the threads been quite mature!

Id echo what Xc-Steve has said, having just been along to an Alpha Course i think they are a good way to find out for yourself. They are of course run by people who believe what they say so there is a level of bias from that point of view but ive found that the hardest thing to argue with is peoples own experiences. I really enjoyed learning about people and their own journeys. It was a good place to help work things out in my own mind as to what i believe, or what id like to find out about more.

have fun, and try not to get too bogged down with stuff! Ride that bike.

Too literal ?
OK, I'll try again.

Anyone can see and touch the mundane, or physical, world around them.
Many people, including me, suspect that there might be a bit more to it than that.
It might be a god or goddess. It might be nature spirits, or Gaia.
It might be that there is no more to it and what we see really is all there is.

Whatever it is, I don't trust anyone who claims to have some sort of exclusive access to the answer.

You might also have a quick look at these [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00vkk77 ]The Big Silence[/url] 3 recent half hour programs - I've seen the first and got the other two recorded - facinating stuff. You may not go for the the God bit, but I think the idea of the ever increasing wave of "noise" of all sorts blocking out whatever's buried inside us - soul call it what you will - makes sense.

a convinced sceptic..

Too literal ?

Quite the opposite. You are using a definition that appears rellevant to something that doesnt exist.

What you said, surfer, was that by choosing to explore his 'faith', then he stood to lose his dignity and intellectual backbone. I think that was fairly clear.

What you said, surfer, was that by choosing to explore his 'faith', then he stood to lose his dignity and intellectual backbone. I think that was fairly clear.

I've made it as clear as I can I cant make it clearer for you.

You dont need to make it any clearer.

What you said, surfer, was that by choosing to explore his 'faith', then he stood to lose his dignity and intellectual backbone. I think that was fairly clear.

That may be what you read into what surfer said but I read that anyone who bases their religious belief/faith on Pascals Wager does lack a bit of backbone. Please don't read this as my saying that all those who have relgious belief/faith are lacking in backbone as that is not what I'm saying, nor is it what I think that surfer was saying.

Fair enough...

If someone expresses faith or a belief in something that you dont share, why does it make them intellectually inferior to you? Live and let live FFS.

When did anyone suggest that the OP was intellectually inferior to anyone? I think suggesting that the discovery that ones belief system is constructed round an imaginary friend as being inconsequential by the OP is quite reasonably picked up by myself with real life pitfalls, and by surfer with slightly more nebulous potential problems. That is not the same as calling Mr Nutt intellectualy stunted or a philiosophical pygmy...... personally I find it difficult to understand why the sole argument propogated when the lack of logic or reason behind religious belief is challenged is that somehow by disagreeing with that belief in fairy tales one is lacking in objectivity or wit.

Oh right then, your comments 'buggering choirboys' and 'imaginary friend' were objective and witty then?

Oh right then, your comments 'buggering choirboys' and 'imaginary friend' were objective and witty then?

There is overwhleming evidence that the former was commonplace within the Roman Catholic church and the term "imaginary friend" would appear, again based on evidence (or the lack of) to be an accurate description.

Witty is open to interpretation.

Read the post Mitch

The Op said:-

maybe, but if what gives me strength to make the right choices turns out to have been but an [b]imaginary friend[/b] then I've not lost anything, wouldn't you agree?

To which I pointed out:-

You have to admit that its a bit of a worry if yer imaginary friend tells you to start buggering choirboys though?

Which in case you missed it is a real and current concern directly involving one of the largest organised religions in the world. i.e. yes harm bloody well can be harm done! Seems to me poignant and appropriate in the circumstances of the debate. More so in that the OP is obviously seeking some form of direction in his life. I think it would be more than slightly unhelpful to avoid mentioning some of the obvious pitfalls and precipices that he would appear to be heading for.

So whats your point?