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An elderly neighbour popped around to drop off a card today - we got chatting, she's looking forward to Christmas as she's got family coming over from New Zealand, but she's just fallen (broken her hip) and her husband is very ill and, as she said it, 'he just wants to die'.
We've had a challenging year with one thing and another, but this lovely woman who has been a bundle of energy for the last 10 years since we moved her has really upset me. I said to her that I will do anything she wants to help out, in the house, in the garden etc and she just said 'over my dead body' - stubbornly independent to the end (with no reason). Ball cocks.
Yeah, life can be bloody brutal at times.
Yup. would you like some more shit on your shit sandwhich? with a side portion of shite deep fried on the side?
It was the 'he just wants to die' that stuck with me. Without trying to sound horrible, I think she actually means she wants him to die as he has been a challenge for a few years. This isn't meant to be what growing old is meant to be surely?
It is not Christmas that is shit, it is growing old and infirm. So much stuff I used to do that I can't do now - like walk 500 metres. That is what sucks. Dark, cold time of year really doesn't help either.
People get fixated on Christmas because of all the hullaballoo and then because they are not feeling "Hollywood Happy Christmas" they feel worse and blame Christmas.
This isn’t meant to be what growing old is meant to be surely?
I've had a frank chat with my lad saying that I'm not going to go along the path of dementia in the future. Sod that. I'm seeing my old mum become completely detached from the world she lives in, it's tragic and it's tearing me apart. I'm not going to put my lad through similar.
I lost my mum 6 weeks ago. Before her time, sadly, one day I'll say more on that but one blessing is she was terrified of 'losing her marbles' and in the end although she had had a stroke and maybe had started to show some signs of deteriorating mentally, she never did.
Yes, growing old sucks. I have no desire to.
I know, and I don't mean it in that way.
There's a difference between having a high number of candles on your cake and yet still being active, and healthy, and having all your wits about you, and what I mean by growing old, where you can't walk unaided, don't know who your relatives are, piss and shit yourself regularly.....
I'm not doing the second.
[i]Mrs TJ said the alternative is worse – and she proved it[/i] Only thing that keeps me going really. I had a slight existentialist crisis a few years ago, after tsnapping my foot off, and decided to just accept there is no point and just enjoy the journey which ever way it takes me. I could just do with better pain management sometimes.
Unfortunately we're living longer lives, not better lives these days, medical science has allowed us to go on longer, but hasn't nailed a few of the really challenging areas of growing older. It's amazing how from the pension age people i know seem to drop off so fast, you go from 65 to 75 and it's like they've aged 30 years in some cases, and deteriorated as if that's the case.
Yeah life can be tough.
Lot’s of elderly people feel like that about themselves and others when they health and mobility fails. It’s all good and well for those who have their fitness, mobility, health and mental capacity. For those not so fortunate it can be an awful existence. I sat for week with caring for my grandfather who was in absolute agony when awake, watched him pass. I sat with my grandmother in her final moments too, his wife, but I wasn’t with her when she passed was I was trying to get my mother up in time. All she wanted from when he died was to be with him, even more so as she became frail.
It’s certainly not a prospect I want.
It can suck. Most definitely. 2023 has taught me that and scared me thinking of my own future, like Poopscoop. Checked Dad into a carehome in the last month, who until February was active, mentally with it and most people had him down ten years younger than he was. I’m also supporting mum at home with dementia/immobility and puzzling her next steps carefully at the moment. I’m off to a nine year olds funeral/celebration of life tomorrow. Life is fragile. Thoughts to everyone who’s struggling at this time of year.
I understand there is such a thing as a “lifespan” and a “healthspan” and they are different things. I guess it’s the healthspan we should be looking to increase.
It is not Christmas that is shit, it is growing old and infirm. So much stuff I used to do that I can’t do now – like walk 500 metres. That is what sucks. Dark, cold time of year really doesn’t help either.
People get fixated on Christmas because of all the hullaballoo and then because they are not feeling “Hollywood Happy Christmas” they feel worse and blame Christmas.
Lost my dad 7 weeks ago and the trauma from that means we're not having a Christmas this year. The month leading up to his passing was horrible, his last few days and hours were horrific and the weeks after have been non-existent. Noe of us feel like doing any kind of celebration so it's just a muted present swapping for the sake of my sister's kids and nothing more. Doesn't help that Christmas Day is my brother-in-law's 40th birthday and my 43rd is a few days later. I really don't feel like doing anything after having spent the last fortnight speaking to various companies saying he's died and getting everything transferred to my mum's name. She's not in great health herself, struggles to walk far and has numerous other issues too, so I can only see a bad path for her in the future too.
I don't want to get old, amazed I made it past 40 really, and watching people you love go through it in a nasty and bad way is unbelievably painful and traumatising, brought to the fore by the papers saying that Esther Rantzen is going the Humane way that is not open to the vast majority of us. Hopefully the situation will change by the time I'm at that stage but if not I plan to send it off a stupidly big jump/drop Rampage-style, enjoy the fall down and get it over with quickly. Going the way dad did scares the crap out of me and it was the exact way he didn't want to go, the same happened to his mum.
Hard to put things in to coherent thoughts and sentences but hopefully you get the idea. Hopefully everyone else going through tough times can get through it with some semblance of sanity left for 2024.
I'll be honest..
I've not 'done christmas' for a number of years as all of my close family have gone, and I'd feel like it would be an insult to them to pretend to be happy and play along with the 'happy happy' vibe.
If I'm being really honest, it's probably why I come across like an arsehole on here sometimes. I don't mean to be, to anyone I have offended, and will offend again in the future!
As luck would have it, I do have a good friend whos wife and kids are going to the in-laws for the day, (he doent like his in-laws, hahah) so we're just going to have a few drinks and cook up some good food and just have a good ole' bro-sesh.
Dunno what the the hell I'm trying to say, but you're not alone, and don't feel bad if your are not all mariah carey.
I understand there is such a thing as a “lifespan” and a “healthspan” and they are different things. I guess it’s the healthspan we should be looking to increase.
I learned this week average life expectancy was 40 when Bismarck set the retirement age at 70. These days it would be 103.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001sczl?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
I haven't done Christmas since becoming an adult and feel much better for it as it seems to put a lot of what I see as completely unnecessary pressure on people mentally.
As to wanting to die, that is what my dad said to me around 12 weeks before he actually died. He had simply had enough and was in a bad way and only going to get worse until he eventually died. Another topic but one day we may get a progressive enough government to make it easier to allow people to decide what they want to do with their own lives when the time comes.
It's my Mams funeral on Friday the 22nd, the 23rd would have been her 79th birthday.
Its been 18 months since my dad passed away so it has been pretty shite recently.
Just trying to focus on next week, month, year.
Life is unfair mate, really is. I've suffered with depression a lot over the years stemming from multiple existential crisies but have been good for about 3 years now. One thing that made a difference is accepting that life is unfair and it's out of my control, but the good times wouldn't feel no where near as good if we didn't have the bad to balance it out. Like, if you were happy all of the time, after a while the perspective shift would mean that feeling happy is just a normal baseline and you would no longer feel happy if that makes sense? Now when I have a bad day instead of fighting it, I just accept it and try to reflect why I'm feeling that way and realise it's not permanent. Also mindful and positivity has been a massive game changer.<br /><br />If you're not a religious type the best purpose and meaning I've found you can find in life is helping others and making a positive impact on the world around you as you've tried to do with your neighbour, she will appreciate the offer and remember you for it, when she does lose her husband if things get really tough for her, knowing that she will have you there as a port of call will make a big difference for her coping so good on you.
Unfortunately we’re living longer lives, not better lives these days, medical science has allowed us to go on longer, but hasn’t nailed a few of the really challenging areas of growing older
I was under the impression that lifespan had stopped increasing, but for a big % of people, were able to continue healthy lives longer. But when you go, you go fast.
I will try to enjoy christmas as best I can. My kids will be here, and my mother is visiting for a month!
It’s my Mams funeral on Friday the 22nd, the 23rd would have been her 79th birthday.
Its been 18 months since my dad passed away so it has been pretty shite recently.
Yeah I went through a similar experience in 2009 – at the start of the new year (and a week after we had told mum and dad that we were expecting twins) I lost my dad aged 69. When my mum turned 70 a year and half later, I joked with my brothers that 'at least mum has made it into her 70s'. Six months later she died (lung cancer – I always told her that smoking would kill her and spent my childhood trying to make her stop). At least she got to spend some precious time with our little girls though – I regularly think about how my dad would have loved to have had time with them.
I think the desire to die and to stop all the pain should be a choice anybody can make, we should not be tortured unecessarily by the medical profession, courts or religion. I very much align with that approach.
Having been on the other side of the life/death boundary a couple of times in the last year I have no fears about death whatsoever. I am worried about years of unending and uncontrollable suffering and will ensure that doesn't happen to me if at all possible.
It’s amazing how from the pension age people i know seem to drop off so fast, you go from 65 to 75 and it’s like they’ve aged 30 years in some cases, and deteriorated as if that’s the case.
Iirc, when the pension age was set at 65, men only lived another 3 years on average.
I'm firmly in the quality not quantity camp, not sure if Esther Rantzens announcement yesterday will result in any progress on the options.
There is certainly movement towards assisted dying. Huge majority support it. The anti side are 90% religious fundamentalists inventing fake secular reasons to oppose it and grossly distorting what happens in other countries.
Write to your mp or msp or whomever you have . Join dignity in dying.
Personal stories that politcians read are making a difference
It’s amazing how from the pension age people i know seem to drop off so fast, you go from 65 to 75 and it’s like they’ve aged 30 years in some cases, and deteriorated as if that’s the case.
Yeah, six years ago my father-in-law (then 69) was fit as a fiddle and helped me (or rather I helped him) build a big decking area and patio area in our garden – putting in full days, doing some great work (just leaving me with the heavy lifting / mixing /digging etc). Fast forward to now and he's as deaf as a post, increasingly doddery, had a nasty garden tool accident that cost him the ends of two fingers, had a couple of falls and I often go to theirs to help him out with stuff (which I don't mind one bit as he has done so much for us over the years).
The anti side are 90% religious fundamentalists inventing fake secular reasons to oppose it and grossly distorting what happens in other countries.
This very much seems the to be the case TJ. They seem of the same ilk as the rabid anti-abortionists in that they just assume that they should be able to force their religious beliefs onto the rest of us and that the whole of society should be viewed through that particular narrow prism.
Sorry to hear about your mum @dirtyboy
Two very close mates have both lost their fathers in the last couple of weeks
One was so quick, it was terrifying. Apparently perfectly healthy and active, then started to get dizzy spells, went for tests and was diagnosed with a brain tumour and was then taken straight into palliative care, where he died peacefully a week later.
I suppose that given that or potentially years of ill health and pain, thats not such a bad way to go
There is certainly movement towards assisted dying. Huge majority support it. The anti side are 90% religious fundamentalists inventing fake secular reasons to oppose it and grossly distorting what happens in other countries.
I listened to Esther Rantzen on R4 yesterday morning as I drove to work. She was very well-reasoned and sensible about it. (And also didn't sound anything like an 83 year old!) The opposing view was just coming on as I pulled into work, and she had a series of randomly picked falsities about other countries, as you say. I'd been waiting for some sensibly thought out out argument but it was almost, 'A man in Australia went to his doctor for a better wheelchair and was given DEATH PILLS!!!!'
There was an informative Briefing Room episode last week:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001t9km?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
And for people who haven't heard the discussion with Esther Rantzen:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0h06yy5?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
Yet it is 'humane' to put down an sick animal rather than letting it suffer unnecessarily.
Binners
Care not killing are the main anti outfut. Theyhave a cross membership with SPUC and are funded by American evangelical churches and Brian Soutar the stagecoach boss
I learned this week average life expectancy was 40 when Bismarck set the retirement age at 70. These days it would be 103.
Word of caution on calculation and what average means - mean, mode, median? AIUI deaths from childhood illnesses and during / shortly after childbirth (mothers and babies) means that there was a big chunk of deaths of the young, but if you got past childhood then you were expected to have a reasonable lifespan thereafter.
Thanks for sharing TJ, had to do some digging, interesting stuff: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/rich-snp-donors-charity-funding-24472762
Christmas really is a hard time. Life doesn't seem to know about it so shit still comes in at the same rate regardless. I tend to like boxing day better as then I have a bunch of friends with lots of left over food who are now stress free as the big day is over and ready to get together in a much more relaxed way.
Word of caution on calculation and what average means – mean, mode, median? AIUI deaths from childhood illnesses and during / shortly after childbirth (mothers and babies) means that there was a big chunk of deaths of the young, but if you got past childhood then you were expected to have a reasonable lifespan thereafter.
Noted, and I kind of knew that. I think the point of the program was that at the nominal age of retirement, half of workers had already died.
jekkyl
Full Member
If you can’t afford dignitas what would be the best most peaceful to end your life that wouldn’t impact too greatly on others?
I just went to check, are you ok @jekkyl?
Something that means you go to sleep but never wake up is the best but that's just not really possible legally. If there was an 'Easy' way out then you wouldn't get the Jumpers on bridges etc. Strangely the quickest and least impactful way is to go in a big impact, I'll let you imagine scenarios.
^^ Best to wait to make sure jekkyl isn't wanting advice for more immediate reasons mate?
No doubt im overthinking things but...
Didn't strike me as that sort of post but yeah, you never know. Besides, there are plenty of places on the web that will have details of some very inventive and painless methods that none of us here would think of.
We’re one year into voluntary assisted dying in Queensland. I’m not personally involved in any way, however I had a long emotional discussion with a geriatrician about the processes recently. Despite considerable preparation it has been very difficult to manage the sheer number of people applying and it has been very hard to staff.
I'm great thank you 🙂 it's Michael. Sorry about that post, didn't mean to scare you and thank you for your concern. I cannot deny it isn't a subject I haven't considered greatly. I think I would rather off myself when the time came than become a shell. I was with both my parents when they passed and it isn't a moment that ever leaves you. My love and good thoughts for anyone going through it or who has recently gone through it.
^^ Sorry, it's just it's really hard to guage someones state of mind on the forum for obvious reasons.
Don't want you to think you come across "that way" on other posts, it was just that individual one that I obviously over thought far too much.
Apologies to @reluctantjumper too. Though I'd better not overthink his name too much from now on. 😉
You know that bit in fight club where he wishes a hole would open up in the side of the plane just because it would be something different that happens....
Instead of the day to day drudgery.
I've been struggling with sleep for the past few weeks. I think it's just an allergy or something to do with my sinuses. I'm going to the doctor about it.
What it has highlighted to me is that I'm only one small tweak in my life away from completely falling apart. This disruption to my sleep has caused issues that I thought I had more or less under control to come rushing back with a vengeance.
One of the things people like to say is, 'Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.'
I'm sure it's well intentioned, but it just makes me want to punch them in their smug, ignorant faces.
For some of us this is not a temporary state, it's a core part of our being. For us as individuals it's as permanent a thing as it's possible to be.
We can put structures in place and learn techniques but this is something that is always lurking in the background waiting for it's opportunity.
So yes, my sleep problems are (hopefully) temporary problem but they are merely exposing the permanent problem. And the problem is that no matter how long we live we are going to be fundamentally unhappy for most of that time. This is not a situational thing, this is just part of who we are.
Society as it exists today makes managing this unnecessarily hard.
By the way, please don't offer any advice. Not to sound harsh but I can pretty much 100% guarantee your advice will be useless and only serve to irritate even more.
The assisted dying route does seem to be gathering momentum and I see this as very positive. My father had the last few weeks/ couple of months dying of cancer shortened to hours by a brain aneurysm which all told, despite him having a horrific last conscious hour was a 'kinder' departure. The same without the pain would have been better still. He was in total denial though - I doubt he'd have taken it.
My two concerns are possibly unfounded. The first is the timing. I remember how hard it was judging the best time to put our beloved pets to sleep. You hope with the person able to make the decision rather than the third party owner in the case of pets that would be easier. I'd imagine slipping into alzheimer's would be the hardest with mental faculties gradually impaired to make an independent choice. Maybe some illnesses are just not appropriate. My other worry is up scaling. I'm just not convinced the expensive Dignitas model upscales well. Can you imagine an NHS model on current funding levels - a postcode lottery of availability followed by 6 month waiting list then a hurried call that they have a cancellation and can fit you in if you can get there by 4.30 that afternoon......
As far as "impact on others", I don't think the method itself has a massive bearing on things, though turning up home to find a corpse probably isn't much fun.
Long past time for a proper debate on assisted dying for people reaching the end of their lifespan, but it's very sad when people suffer through depression etc and also terrible for those left behind.
I don't see the timing issue as being a huge one. People die randomly before or after "their time" all the time. What would it really matter if a terminal cancer case could have soldiered on for another month or 6? My dad was 2y in a care home, waiting to die. He wasn't suffering greatly but wasn't happy either and had nothing to look forward to other than an increasingly undignified life. He had talked about ending his life for a while but of course didn't have the means...the most he could do was refuse a battery replacement in his pacemaker (he asked to get it taken out but they refused because "do no harm").
Whichever of my wife and I lasts longest will be dying alone anyway (probably in a care home or hospice), if it's me I'd rather manage that process according to my own preferences and timing
I think you got the wrong end of my stick. For most I'd imagine there is a balancing act of wanting to die for pain/dignity reasons but also wanting to eek out every quality moment with loved ones. For me the hindsight afterwards for the living of it was the right time is not the issue - it's the act of making the decision. Like having your finger hovering over a button knowing it's irreversible. The jumper clinging to the bridge syndrome if you will.
It’s amazing how from the pension age people i know seem to drop off so fast, you go from 65 to 75 and it’s like they’ve aged 30 years in some cases, and deteriorated as if that’s the case.
My mum and dad are a case in point. Same age, to within 6 months or so. Mum retired at 62 and 15 years later is all but immobile, doddery and spending a lot of time going back and forth to the doctors and various hospitals for her various ailments. I doubt she'll get much past 80.
Dad retired in his 50s for 4 years, then rejoined the workforce a few years later and did another 6 or 7 years. He's still getting out and walking 5 miles twice a day, all weathers with the dog, looks after the garden and house, does the cleaning, runs around and plays with his step grandkids (they live less than 10 miles from him.) still has his little DIY projects (but they take longer now!). Only major issue he has is he started going deaf about 15 years ago, and now has got some very early indicators for prostate cancer. He's 77. My step mum is 10 years younger and in a right state.
Noted, and I kind of knew that. I think the point of the program was that at the nominal age of retirement, half of workers had already died.
Except a huge number of them never even became workers. A lot never even got to the point where they could walk, let alone work! In 1900 the child mortality rate was still around 20%. Didn't drop below 10% until the 1930s.
A lady I work with has just been through the end of life cycle with her mum.
Tore her apart as the hospital discharged her as nothing else they could do .so she got sent home with pain meds and a twice a day health professional visit.
Leaving the family to cover the other 23hrs . She had dementia and was 84 but the strain of looking after her, trying to work and being summoned when she deteriorated was heart wrenching.
A kiss goodnight and a hug then a tablet or injection that you don't wake up from would have been much more humane than the clinging on for another day of just existing inside a barely functioning body not knowing what is going on.
It's one of the least humane things humans do.
One of the things people like to say is, ‘Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.’
I’m sure it’s well intentioned, but it just makes me want to punch them in their smug, ignorant faces.
For some of us this is not a temporary state, it’s a core part of our being. For us as individuals it’s as permanent a thing as it’s possible to be.
We can put structures in place and learn techniques but this is something that is always lurking in the background waiting for it’s opportunity.
Very few people understand this, partly through ignorance but also as they've never had to live with it. I've been 'lucky' in that my mum fully understood what I say about my struggles as she goes through them too but I've had to jettison a decent amount of 'friends' out of my life the last decade as they just could not understand that it wasn't a temporary thing that could be solved by a night or two down the pub etc. The struggles of dealing with the Pandemic, losing my job, struggling to find a permanent new one, trying to move in a bonkers rental market, dealing with my dad passing and the resultant struggles to get my mum set up to live comfortably afterwards has really brought home who my true friends are as only some have been in contact that while time. People who have known me for my whole adult life and that I struggle with mental health at the best of times haven't even been bothered to text, message or call me throughout all of that. A further round of cutting ties with some of them is called for in the New Year I think.
I don't know what's worse, the people who give bad advice or the people who just aren't there at all.