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After having researched the conflict in libya and come to my own conclusions about the WAR.
I am quite baffled as to why the west has been so eager to believe what is being said, without it making any sense?
However rather than coming between western individuals and the GOD called TV / media or the commonly held perspective on this issue.
I have a simple suggestion and well way to judge this, yes you can put links to Al Gazeera the arab stoogies and US/UK media stoogies.
However they all have satellites and other expensive broad casting equipment which means at some point money men and banks are involved.
How about this, if the fighting, the unrest, the brutality, the sexism, the racism and ethnic cleansing which included the destruction of an entire city with upto 30,000 people being displaced and imprisoned in death camps, simply because they are dark skinned. If all of this continues and the country descends more into anarchy.
We can then say that Muammar Gaddafi did not oppress the people of Libya but in fact brought peace! to his country. Whilst the rest of Africa was ravaged by war! 42 years of tyranny or 42 years of peace and prosperity.
As is always the case time will tell!
'Freedom' fighter turned western world propped up dictator, due to the oil reserves though wasn't he?
*applauds*
Well done, chap. Usual standards maintained. Rambling, random caps, no obvious thread.
Thank you.
NO CAPITALS THOUGH 😉
I think it's the hot weather. 😳
Is there nothing on the tellybox?
As with most of these long running dictatorships (Hussein, Al Asad, Gadaffi et all) they may have ruled with an iron fist but the countries that they ruled over weren't really countries at all, just lines on a map that don't reflect the tribal/historical boundaries if they ever existed in the first place.
Long story short, ethnic minority dictator/government sells soul/resources/access to runways to west in exchange for a blind eye to human rights abuses, a decent load of cash, access to buy weapons with their oil wealth etc etc.
Okay, I've read the OP three times.
[i]I am quite baffled [/i]
You and me both fella, you and me both.
Thread title of the year Kaesae!
Have not really got a clue what the OP is on about but having worked here before, during and after the Revolution i can tell you in no uncertain terms the folk well 99.9% are happy Ali G got flat packed, there are some issues but considering it is less than one year since Tripoli was liberated they have not done too bad.
Only thing is booze is still illegal so i wont get a proper drink until i am on the BA flight out of here Tuesday.
Not sure I can answer about Libya - but I think the "why does it not make any sense" question may be a bit more general ?? Is Libya the only thing that doesn't make any sense ??
[i]Is Libya the only thing that doesn't make any sense ?? [/i]
Nope. There's the OP as well don't forget.
I see we are all busy heeding the Mods warning in the other thread wit gay abandon....
It makes more sense if you just follow the UChoob clips I ended up with newscaster outtakes..
Al Gazeera?
Gary's Dubai-based halal pizza joint?
wit gay abandon
Que?
zokes - Memberwit gay abandon
Que?
Don't you understand Libyan? *shakes head*
Sorry (no really) i just dont get what is being said, I think its something to do with evil banks and essentially it's better the devil you know....i think, but i often miss the point of what is being said here...
muslamic rayguns
Dangerous stuff that magic marine mushroom bearing grease
Halo, halousag, halousagenic
Makes you see things and ramble
Al Gazeera one of the all time great american method actors
The people of Libya have been liberated from a debt free existence and an active say in what is being done in their country!
Hooraa!
anokdale what exactly do you do in the country and what parts of it have you seen?
I work in the oil and gas industry in Risk Management but last year i jumped back in with the media and went to all the nice places, (not) been everywere here to be honest, the Nafusa Mountains are fantastic and the coastline is as you would expect for the Med. I am based in Tripoli and still enjoy the place, i know Brits who have been here 26/27 yrs so it cannot be too bad. In general the Libyans are great people and deserve better than the last 42 yrs under Ali G.
Hmm anokdale appears to have first hand experience...I wonder where this will lead us????
Al Gazeera? I thought he was a stand-up, worked the clubs in New Jersey!
Not too far, i am not biting and the games are on and i have work in the morning 🙂
Sounds interesting, mind if I ask you some questions about Libya I'm quite curious about the country at the moment.
Here's some of what I've discovered so far!
Before I started to research the events as best I could online, I first went off and researched Muammar Gaddafi. However due to the distorted nature of our TV / media, which if I'm honest I stopped believing after Iraq and a million other lies.
I decided to simply focus on facts about Libya, however to truly grasp the situation in Libya I first had to come to understand the current situation and also the history of the country.
So I look at the recent history of Africa as a continent and also Libya's history put into context of it's location in Africa.
I would also advise anyone that values the truth and our right to choose what we believe to do the same.
When you analyze the Geographical location of Libya and then factor in the constant wars, revolutions and political turmoil of the region you really do have to start asking questions about the logic behind this military action. Not only about our right to interfere in an armed conflict between two waring parties, but also to give one side a massive advantage over the other, especially when the other side is the legitimate government.
A government and regime that was to receive an award for human rights, an award that was put on hold until after the WAR! ❓
The UN have now officially reviewed and have adopted this award!
However I will be discussing the war later on with those who know much better than I do in the hope that I can learn something, for now I would like to simply focus on Gaddafi, the demon hell spawn of satan's left testical.
A man so heinous and revolting, he is actually responsible for one of the greatest feets of irrigation in the world. He could of course have spent the $33 billion on weapons and his army. However rather than being a war monger, he chose instead to go after a dream. A dream that at the time most people said was a madman's delusion. WTF is kaesae the nutjob speaking about and who the **** does he honestly think gives a shit?
The answer to that rambling questions is of course those who still have something shiny inside them, not the tarnished black pit that most of the capitalist world has lurking within.
So to those of you reading this I present to you,
THE GREAT MAN MADE RIVER PROJECT.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Manmade_River
Having researched this and been reasonably thorough I can infact indepentently confirm that it was in fact.
The brain child of Muammar Gaddafi, not only did he invest $33 billion and in so doing become one of the worlds truly great visionaries, he also ended up transforming baron desert into lush arable land.
Obviously I might be wrong about this. I am still researching, however Anokdale can you tell me if you have visited other African countries? and how they compare to Libya? Also what do you know about this project have you seen it?
I don't knkow why I am doing this......
A government and regime that was to receive an award for human rights, an award that was put on hold until after the WAR!
Have you even read the report that article links to? Look at the lost of recommendations it lists. Also - find in there where it says he is getting an award? Diplomacy with carrots instead of sticks - nothing more.
The Great Manmade River was nothing more than economic sense. In one of the driest countries in the world, water is worth more than oil to most of the population. Desalination was the answer before they found the (non-renewable) water. This water is 1/10 of the cost of desalinated water. It makes financial sense. It was not some wonderful philanthropic act - it was simple good sense - for a relatively short time. You cannot 'transform baron[sp] desert into lush arable land' for very long with a finite water source. Why does the desert need to be transformed anyway?
Actually the cost of building 6 of the highest tech desalination plants on the coast of Libya would have still been cheaper than the folly Ali G never completed, and the source of the man made river is reported to run out in 30 yrs or so. Waste of money and another example of the lunatics way he blew Libya wealth when not even providing health care or education to an acceptable level. What a tool and Libya if not the World is a better place for him getting the good news last Oct. Remember folks this guy sponsored World Terrorism for many years and hosted our own PIRA who were as we know a major pain in the butt to the UK.
The Libyans support Europe and align themsleves with that more than the Middle East so hopefully the good relationships will grow and we can see the place coming good. Mind you there was a prison riot here last night and another of Ali Gs former Generals was shot in Benghazi coming out of the Mosque yesterday but heyo we get prison riots in the UK and folk get shot so it cannot be too bad.
.....but heyo we get prison riots in the UK and folk get shot so it cannot be too bad.
It's interesting to hear you suggest that the level of violence in Libya is no different to that in the UK.
I have seen the project the pipes and excavations are all over the place, a scar on the terrain in all honesty and the beneficaries of the man made river were only going to be areas he supported or was supporting to ensure they followed him in time such as last year, the money spent was gigantic and the theory is most of it was embezzeled away into Swiss bank accounts and Mercedes dealerships just like most African countries Governments do with the peoples money. There are numerous unfinnished projects here, housing, schools, the new Airport etc but must stopped mid 2010 when most of us suspect the powers be realised their time was up and the money for the funds was put in the pension fund account for a rainny day.
Ernie to be honest there are places in London i would not walk through and the same applies to Tripoli, dont believe all you here in the Daily Fail and the like. The problem at the moment is in Tripoli for example there is no police force, he never trained them and his Internal Security was the police, they have gone now and the police force are not yet in a position to police in a manner you and i recognise, they will catch up as countries are training them but the local Militias are basically policing the areas they live in and they are not disciplined, trained and the like so you get problems but most are internal issues and not aimed at Ex Pats and as long as we are carefull and avoid hot spots we are fine, i wandered through the main square this AM from the hotel to the office, no problem, i would not do that at night just yet but we will get there. There are 1.5 million folk in Tripoli and i would suspect minor crime. muggings etc is no different from the UK and Libyan families are still strong on the whole so if a father says no most accept that but like anywhere you get the scallies in every society. I would rather be here working for a month at a time than Nigeria where the two years i had there were shocking.
Ernie to be honest there are places in London i would not walk through and the same applies to Tripoli, dont believe all you here in the Daily Fail and the like.
Well actually I had in mind the reports of violence in Libya by [i]all the news providers[/i], not just my Daily Mail, none seem to suggest that it is no worse than the UK.
And whilst I accept that there are areas in London which might be a little dodgy, unlike in Benghazi this week, the International Committee of the Red Cross has not suspended operations due to the level of violence here.
I presume that the International Committee of the Red Cross doesn't rely on the Daily Mail for an analysis of the situation on the ground ?
The ICRC had two attacks one in Misurata as well which surprised us all as the ICRC was at the front of helping the Misuratans in last years skirmish, the ICRC boat from Benghazi was a lifsaver for hundreds last year. The ICRC believe it is because someone in their ranks as gone around handing out Christian Literature though not an excuse for violence it does not help in such sensitive times, link that with the Iranian Red Crescent team getting lifted and still are captive the motives of some NGOs and i am pointing fingers at the Iranian team team do raise suspicions especially in a Sunni society. Complex issues but for the most the IOCs and International companies are starting to come back in. I will be in a public Gym later today, i will go out to a cafe for dinner, no lunch as its Ramadan so its fruit at the desk but tonight i will sit amongst Libayans without issue in a restaurant and nobody will give a toss mate. Like most of us they want to go to work earn a decent salary and not have issues, the results from the election here indicate that as well as no Right Wing party got any seats, it is just a few loons that exist in any society that are giving the place a bad name.
Here we go again, conspiracy theory central!
No conspiracy theory if you are on the ground and your living depends on delivering the correct analysis to your clients who pay your day rate coffeeking, and i know the Director of ICRC misson here and they have reported the same facts of which their current posture reflects the same. This has been reported in open sources on numerous occasions.
it is just a few loons that exist in any society that are giving the place a bad name.
Well that's a relief. All the news reports coming out of Libya have been suggesting that there are some very serious problems concerning lawlessness and violence. TF for STW and eventually hearing the actual truth eh ?
Wasn't aimed at you anokdale
Too tall you are looking at this as a British citizen and your skepticism for your own government and their constant lies, incompetence and blatant thievery from the UK public is clouding your judgement.
For anyone interested here is the report, if you would only like to read parts of it then skip to the bottom and look at the recommendations, several of which say continue doing what you are doing, others from countries such as Brazil and Mexico are to be questioned in the context of their current social situation and class structures.
Here is a list of my favourite recommendations
93.2. Adopt and implement a definition of torture consistent with its
obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, Degrading Treatment or Punishment (United States);
What about the Guantanamo Bay detention camp and the US treatment of it's own citizens?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp
93.3. Adopt domestic legislation to absolutely abolish practices of torture on its territory (United States);
Aah I now see the logic of the last 2 conclusions / recommendations from the United State of America, you can torture people all you like but not in your own country or where people can see you, Gaddafi you amatuer!
This from the Sudanese people
93.6. Continue its efforts to address the adverse effects of the sanctions imposed during the 1990s (Sudan)
The Libyan people accomplished all that they had even though the west opposed them as much as possible, even to the extent of sanctions and bombing the factory's that manufactured the materials for the great man made river project.
http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/
Having read through this report and paid particular attention to what is being said could be done, but also what has been done and what up until the NATO invasion was being done, it's hard for me to understand how so many people rather than researching the country and forming their own judgment on the matter, will simply believe what the politicians and media claim? Judging by our current global circumstances do you really think our politicians give a **** or are worth what we pay them?
Have we not come to understand as a people that the media being controlled by the rich and the governments also being controlled by the rich, powerful and influential will always seek to benefit themselves at our expense, is exploitation not one of the principles that our so called debt ridden, choice free, democracy is founded on?
Let's go back to the great man made river project, or as too tall refers to it the carrot, I prefer the great man made river project, however if you feel that life is about a carrot or a stick feel free to think of the project as the carrot.
At this point I would like to address tootall's questions about why does the desert need to be transformed, how many edible plants do you know of that grow in a desert without water tootall?
Have you even looked at how much water the great man made river project has tapped into? anything from 50 years upto 1000 years worth of water. Left in peace the Libyans would have been able to find out how long it would last and what could be done with it, however we very kindly brought war to their country!
Since we that is to say the west and their Arab allies are saying that Gaddafi was a dictator and not as the truth of the matter tells us an advocate of direct democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Book_%28Libya%29
We can then say that everything that happened in Libya was his doing and he was responsible for it!
So Gaddafi was responsible for the outlawing or sharia law and of course the practice of polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy
Too say that the Arab world was outraged by this is a bit of an understatement, still Gaddafi said **** you! these are my people and by law from now on women are not only the equals of men they will be allowed to speak in public. This may not sound like much to us in the west, however we are discussing Africa and if you research it you will see that Gaddafi was very unpopular as a result of this.
It's gets worse though, Gaddafi went even further than simply pissing of the Arabs with his liberal philosophies of mutual cooperation and sharing of wealth and benefits, he also majorly pissed the west off by saying **** you with a cactus and a jaggy one at that, when he denied them access to the oil and used it's revenues to create an infrastructure in Libya.
You want to learn about the real Muammar Gaddafi the man who Nelson Mandela called the greatest freedom fighter who has ever lived. Then first we must put what he and the people of Libya created by working together into perspective.
When I come back I will be discussing the state of Libya from 1951 to 1969 when Muammar took control in a coup d'état.
However if you are interested here is some information for now, if anyone wants to get involved in researching this feel free!
When Gaddafi came to power like all other African countries Libya was poor, as in shanty towns and lack if hygiene and of course hunger. Gaddafi swore to the people of Libya that he would house every single person in Libya.
Gaddafi raised the literacy rate from 23% to well over 75% for both Men and Women in Libya.
Through the creation of a free education system and free medical attention for the Libyan people.
Why not research the man and look at him through his peoples eyes, he saw the western powers as his enemies simply because they and as their power base we are the enemies of these people.
Our way of life is not fair, it is oppressive and it is exploitative, Muammar Gaddafi refused to allow his people to be treated the way those of us in the west are treated and the way he saw the rest of Africa being treated by western powers, he could have lived a life of ease and wealth / power.
He did not take the same road that so many other Arab or African nations have taken, he did not choose to ensure the safety of his loved ones or to abuse his power. He chose time and time again to do what was right for his people.
You mentioned a carrot too tall, perhaps you should mention it to western democracies they obviously have not heard of it! Stick, Stick, Stick, Stick, Stick!
Anokdale, can you tell us a bit more about what you do and what kind of training / qualifications you have to do it?
It's hard for me to reconcile your evaluation of the GMRP with what almost every other source is saying. The cost was $33 billion and it brought water to a large percentage of the country, also it is no secret that there was a lot of development in Libya still on going.
You yourself have said that there are unfinished projects, not surprising considering what has recently transpired. How exactly do you know when these projects were abandoned?
Some would say we are loons for working here but you have to make a living, it is not as it was before when Ali G was in the chair because as Ex Pats we were protected, his Internal Security thugs looked over us as he did not want us to leave as his revenue would have stopped flowing and he was also watching who we spoke to as they knew last year was on the cards from 2009 onwards when the Democratisation of Libya was failing and Saif Islam G was been found out for the knob he is, just like his dad really so now we have to be careful but no more IMO than working in Luanda or Lagos for example and in fact some South Africans here say it is safer then Cape Town and they should know as most of them live in gated compounds, that said i cannot ride a bike here, the roads and drivers are disasterous and i dont go out after dark but i know some NGOs who do, i am not an NGO so fall under corporate liability issues and HSE Regulation but i would be careful after dark especially driving out of the central business district and into the suburbs.
If you want a really good insight into daily news here hook up onto the LIBYAN HERALD site, very good reporting IMO and backs up what i get told by my local contacts.
The major projects stopped mid 2010 as i have said and none have really kicked off again although the Turkish are looking to get back in on some of the housing ones ASAP, i know the projects were stopping as most of the Project Managers and key players would pass through the hotel i live in and we would gossip, many pulled early once they were subject to late payments and visa restrictions that started in late 2009 early 2010.
As for figures and reports on the Man Made farce speak to Libyans and engineers, they giggle at the whole thing and some more technical and knowlegeable folk than i say the damage to the source has or will cause more issues to the area than the benefit it has given a few. A disasterous waste of money which was resented by Libyans who would drive to Tunisa for basic health care as the system under the old Regime was appalling and unfortunately it will take time to build any system as the Government has no experience of public finance management and the like so it is a difficult and important time in mapping out Libyas future.
anokdale when you say risk assessment what exactly does that mean, all endeavours in human life will come with risks, however do you mean health and safety, militay strikes or even investment wise?
What exactly is it that you do and did you have to leave during the war?
Kaesae i look after people and assets and mitigate against all risk factors which may compromise them, I left on the 21st of Feb 2011 with my clients but during the Revolution i hooked up with the press and came though Libya on my time off from my main clients who i am now back Consulting for. Oil and Gas 😉
anokdale - MemberKaesae i look after people and assets and mitigate against all risk factors which may compromise them, I left on the 21st of Feb 2011 with my clients but during the Revolution i hooked up with the press and came though Libya on my time off from my main clients who i am now back Consulting for. Oil and Gas
Can you tell me what kind of qualifications and training you need for the job you do?
No 😉
You are Captain John Price (and you can keep the £5, sir) 😀
unless your sources are either peer reviewed or the raw data, I would be very careful at what your 'research' tells you.
Eoro, never have i been so insulted, me an officer, i prefer to work for a living.
Bigrich, put me in the picture then mate, what am i missing ?
Anokdale, how much of the conflict did you see? and was there any risk from Gaddafi artillery such as tanks and missile launchers?
Nice one anokdale I don't know anyone who went for a holiday from work / trip through the Libyan war!
No doubt the media personnel you where with who were extensively filming the western backed Islamic extremist fighters to gain them support with the public and NATO forces which included CIA also SAS, would have found having someone with intricate knowledge of the country including the position of it's oil and gas facilities and their layouts very helpful.
In fact thinking about it just now what a stroke of jolly good luck that must have been old boy!
We can then say that Muammar Gaddafi did not oppress the people of Libya but in fact brought peace! to his country. Whilst the rest of Africa was ravaged by war! 42 years of tyranny or 42 years of peace and prosperity.
42 years of peace...well, apart from the slight inconvenience of a war with Chad that lasted more than twenty years and a failed war against Egypt and decades of vanity funding of terrorist groups.
our right to interfere in an armed conflict between two waring parties, but also to give one side a massive advantage over the other, especially when the other side is the legitimate government.
When you say "legitimate", what's your metric for legitimacy?
A government and regime that was to receive an award for human rights, an award that was put on hold until after the WAR!
I seem to remember that Menachem Begin, Barack Obama and Henry Kissinger have all won the Nobel Peace Prize. Forgive me if I am not too blown away.
The brain child of Muammar Gaddafi, not only did he invest $33 billion and in so doing become one of the worlds truly great visionaries, he also ended up transforming baron desert into lush arable land.
Hmm, an energy-intensive non-renewable $25bn project to interfere with nature. Are you familiar with the Aral Sea?
So Gaddafi was responsible for the outlawing or sharia law
Well, "outlawing" in the sense of "adopting"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Libya
What exactly did your search consist of? I think I liked you more when you talked nonsense about Asda and the Royal Mail.
Hahahahaha! very funny Konabunny! I thought people like you were programmed to like almost no one, that you are in fact programmed to fight and argue and to cause conflict at every oppertunity in vain attempts to gain control of situations or be perceived as some how the winner.
Gaddafi did outlaw Sharia, however he did it in such a way as not too provoke widespread unrest.
He kept the name of Sharia, however all forms of bias, sexism, racism and oppression were undermined by the system of law, some will understand that under Gaddafi socialism thrived and he did what was necessary for the good of his country and people!
If Sharia kona bunny was already being used in Libya, how can it now be reintroduced, are they reintroducing something that is already there? hahahahaha, how does that work?
The Green Book, Gaddafi's outline of his political and economic philosophy for Libya, officially accepts religion and customary law as sources of law for society.[14] In 1977, the Libyan government promulgated the Declaration of People's Power, which superseded the constitution; this also stated that the Qur'an was the source of legislation for Libya.
[15] However, throughout the late 1970s and 1980s, Gaddafi repeatedly emphasised in speeches that Islamic law was an insufficient basis for modern economic and social relations, and that the traditional Islamic guidelines for property and commerce had no legal standing.[16] In practise, secular policies overrode religion as a source of law.[14] Thus, by 1990, Ann Elizabeth Mayer of the University of Pennsylvania described Gaddafi's actual progress towards the Islamisation of Libyan law as "very modest", and largely aimed not at reviving specific sharia rules, but enforcing public morality consistent with Libyan values.[11]
One area in particular in which Libyan laws are inconsistent with sharia is in the penal law, where the punishments are lighter than those mandated by traditional hudud, especially in the case of needy offenders. Mayer analyses this as leniency inspired by the Libyan government's socialist principles.[17] The Libyan government also viewed sharia's protection of private property, along with principles of Islamic law regarding contracts and commerce, as incompatible with a socialist economic programme.
[19] The Maliki school continued to be used as the source of Islamic law; however, if Maliki sources do not cover a certain question, reference is made to the Libyan Penal Code and the Libyan Code of Penal Procedure, rather than other schools of sharia law. The practical aim of this procedure seems to have been to limit the number and scope of sharia laws applied.
So not outlawing in the sense of adopting, taking an ancient religion such as Islam and adapting it to the needs of a modern world.
It seems to me that apart from the always open-minded kaesae, everyone on STW is a programmed automata, only able to spout whatever the government controlled media tells us to think and speak. 🙄
So not outlawing in the sense of adopting, taking an ancient religion such as Islam and adapting it to the needs of a modern world.
So, err, yes - not outlawing, as you originally claimed.
Are you going to address any of the other factual howlers you made?
It seems to me that being the majority does not mean that you are in fact correct, through out history has it not been the case that the commonly held view was in fact wrong or at least illogical?
Is the history of western society, not in fact the history of widespread delusion and ignorance?
For example if we look back 100 years and analyze the world then, would we not shake our heads and say how wrong we were, if people 100 years ago looked back a further 100 years, would they not also say how wrong we were?
If we look back say to before homosexuals had rights and it was seen as a disease of the mind 😯 or further back before women had the right to vote and were seen as not the equals of men ❓ would we not say how wrong we were!
What about the treatment in western culture of minority groups and discrimination or exploitation, looking back they are crimes against humanity, however at the time they were the socially accepted norm.
So Countzero I ask you this, at all times as previously mentioned in the history of western culture and with those who were living and perpetrating acts that we can say today were simply wrong. How many new that what they did was wrong or irrational?
As for media it is not hard to see the affects it is having on our culture.
I am a freakin fracky googly eyes titacus, I am without a doubt the greatest failure and retard in relation to potential in the history of our race.
In fact I except that not only am I an idiot who doesn't have a clue but that even if I did have a clue and was reasonably intelligent or had something to contribute to society. That wouldn't count for shit when it came to getting a job or earning a living.
I except that there is no place in your society or culture for me 😀
That is why I avoid it like the plague, I do not wish to see the world as you see it, I do not wish to assume or not question everything.
The truth to me is that which cannot be disproven by all means of questioning and logical analysis, it is that which is constant and unchanging!
Where is the truth or respect for it, in your way of life?
Konabunny, here is how I can claim that Gaddafi outlawed Sharia.
The only place that the form of Sharia that Gaddafi advocated was found is in Libya, in fact the majority if the rest of the Islamic world for the most part consider that Gaddafi does not practice Sharia law.
So if those who practice Sharia and who are in charge of the Islamic faith do not consider what Gaddafi practiced to be Sharia, who would know better than them kona bunny? me? you? or them?
Gaddafi created a new form of Sharia law that is unrecognized, however it is also a form of Sharia law that is democratic and could be integrated into western cultures, if only the west had the good common sense to appreciate the fact!
Did I ever tell you about my old neighbour? Ran his fancy dress business into the ground.
Compared to destroying the planet and rendering it uninhabitable, that doesn't really worry me too much!
Most enlightening, this thread.
Carry on, keep up the good work everyone.
For 42 years Gaddafi kept a peace between countless, tribes, sects and factions.
He improved on the educational standard of his country and also the health care, before he came to power large parts of libya were shanty towns.
He encouraged migrant workers to come and live in the country and even publicly apologized for Libya's involvement in the slave trade.
One city of dark skinned libyans was of course Tawargha http://www.npr.org/2012/06/12/154763937/after-libyas-war-acts-of-vengeance
So a city of men women and children rose up marched to war and raped a far larger city?
Have a look at some of these people so that they are more than just statistics, you can find a photo below.
All of these facts can be easily varified, the report from the UN which was sidelined during the war confirms a lot of what has been said.
I do not know what happened in Libya I am however starting to form a much better picture, I will reiterate my stance on this, we cannot and do not have the right to tell someone in a completely different set of circumstances from us, how they must act in those circumstances.
We cannot at this point say if Muammar Gaddafi was right or wrong, all we can do is wait and see what transpires for the Libyan people from here on.
However because of the great amount of resources the US, UK also France as well as other governments stand to gain as a result of the changes in Libya, we must question the motives involved in our declaring war on a people and NATO's involvement.
If it is wrong to speak out and say that a lot of this makes no sense, then I am wrong, if it is wrong to say I would very much like to research this subject more and gain a better perspective, then I am wrong. If it is wrong to draw attention to the mans life's work considering the circumstances these works took place under, then I am wrong.
The next few months and years will tell us the true story of what happened, just as time has told us the truth about Iraq.
I knew I'd regret trying to communicate with kaesae. I do try to see the best in people.
a thousand hairy savages sitting down to lunch, gooble, gooble,gooble munch ,munch,munch.S Milligan
We cannot at this point say if Muammar Gaddafi was right or wrong, all we can do is wait and see what transpires for the Libyan people from here on.
No, we can quite clearly and easily say he was wrong. Whether he was less wrong than western backed regime change is another matter.
(Nature abhors a vacuum: this forum is keenly feeling the argumentative absence of the AngloScottish Messiah, but I am truly thankful for kaesae for stepping in to fill the hole.)
I knew I'd regret trying to communicate with kaesae. I do try to see the best in people.
I find it quite awe-inspiring that this is, quite possibly, the best of kaesae. It is entirely possible that things could actually get weirder and go downhill from here.
No we cannot at this point say if what he did was necessary to bring the peace and prosperity Libya had experienced.
In the middle of states at constant war and attrocities being commited in countries all around libya, the people there lived in relative peace and prosperity.
How many people starved to death under Gaddafi? how many people have starved to death under Barack Obama?
We see more and more unrest in the streets of America, with defenceless individuals being murdered in cold blood by American police and police brutality spiraling out of control.
How can we say Gaddafi is wrong? he vastly improved the country and the quality of life there, from what my research has shown.
If you have actual evidence to contradict this then present it for analysis
What we can say however is that western people or the majority of western people, will make up their minds without verifying the facts.
That western view points are not changeable regardless of the facts.
Not long ago most people believed that climate change was just a mith, that it was just scare mongering.
The experts for the most part agreed, there was and is nothing wrong, who at the time believed that? so time passes and we realize that had we acted then, we would not be in so much shit right now.
Decisions are being made on assumptions and assumptions are being made on common misperceptions and clear lies.
However Libya's HDI speaks for it's self!
Look at the video footage at the right of the screen, firther down you will see rallies in many major cities in support of Gaddafi, how do you explain this support?
http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/2011/11/09/the-standard-of-living-in-libya/
No matter what else is said this information and the figures speak volumes, here we see facts that can be verified, or am I mistaken about the information?
Kaesae, I seem to remember you flouncing off a while ago. Glad to see you back. The Lazer thread is still one of my all time favorites!
I'm astounded. All this typing and research, in an effort to argue with well, I think it's yourself.
Top work!
Once I have finished what I have to say I will be yet again on my way!
However let me tell you about something I recently realized, the emotions that each of us carry within us only have the power over us that we unwittingly give them.
Others peoples negative emotions are projected towards us and because we do not understand what is happening inside us, we automatically respond by directing more negativity out towards them. Thus the situation escalates and emotions run out of control, this can also lead to violence.
However once you not only realize but also analyze this response within yourself, it is possible to deny the process what it requires to occur. Too many people are unhappy, too many people are stressed, too many people are worrying about what they will need to face in the future. You cannot change what you will face, but you can decide how it affects you.
It is not only me that will be judged on what is said here, all of you will be judged as well. The difference is of course no matter what happens to me in life, my mind will stay calm and peaceful and I will act as I believe I should as defined by my beliefs.
I believe a great crime has been committed against the people of Libya, Gaddafi has gone some say good some say bad, that does not matter. Here is what I believe matters, the people of Libya are in grave danger and we put them there!
In this documentary it is claimed that Al Qaeda were responsible for the unrest and attacks on Libyan military installations
So if it was Al Qaeda forces that were the heart of the revolution, where did they end up?
The Answer is quite simple really, Mali! 3x Northern cities in Mali have been Captured by Al Qaeda using NATO weapons and Equipment that they also used in Libya.
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2909/stories/20120518290906100.htm
There are you revolutionaries, still armed with the weapons that they seized or NATO supplied them with!
Don't worry though as the story gets better, one of the main targets in THE DAY OF RAGE peaceful demonstrations was of course the banks.
Al Qaeda now have more than enough money to fund there newly formed state in Mali, so not only have we armed Al Qaeda and given them a huge base of operations, they also have massive funding!
GO NATO!
Saying that I might still be wrong about all of this, any actual evidence going to be presented for analysis?
Mad as a box of frogs. Priceless.
But superb entertainment. I imagine him typing furiously away in a Scottish dungeon with 'the truth will out' written across the wall in blood and faeces.
You have to admire his perseverance and sense of purpose. Can't help but think that all this effort directed towards a bunch of middle aged mountain bikers is unlikely to bring about a change in world foreign policy though.
How did the war in Libya actually start? by that I mean how did the UN and NATO get involved.
The answer is that several Humanitarian and Human rights groups rallied around one group of Human rights activists the LLHR
In this report there are some very interesting facts.
http://www.voltairenet.org/Lybia-Human-rights-impostors-used
Major LLHR members
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_League_for_Human_Rights
appear to also be member of the NTC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transitional_Council
Who is Soliman Bouchuiguir?
I find it quite awe-inspiring that this is, quite possibly, the best of kaesae. It is entirely possible that things could actually get weirder and go downhill from here.
You actually believe it could get weirder? Actually, yes you're right, things really could get very weird indeed.
Actually, if someone could précis all the stuff that kaesae has written, I'd appreciate it, I just couldn't bring myself to read it all, let alone all the links. I've reached a point in my life where I have to savour every moment, and slitting my wrists in a hot bath doesn't figure in that scenario. 😉
Those who embrace ignorance and self delusion have no need to read anything, they have no need to verify facts or feel any respect for the truth, you can make your decisions based on what ever you like to fit your warped perspectives on the world.
You can decide the truth behind and the righteousness of our involvement in the Libyan conflict by simply deciding that it was fair.
Here behold the greatness of your powers.
Every day average Libyan people taking up arms and fighting for their way of life, massively out matched in terms of technology and weaponry
Although I am ashamed to be from the western world and our participation in this and other crimes against humanity, looking at them refusing to surrender I am proud to be a decent human being!
Those who embrace ignorance and self delusion have no need to read anything, they have no need to verify facts or feel any respect for the truth, you can make your decisions based on what ever you like to fit your warped perspectives on the world.
Unfortunately, referencing Wikipedia and websites created by other loons does not pass muster as 'verify' or 'truth'. You go ahead and believe what you want to - aliens, secret lizard overlords, conspiracy - anything! Don't expect many people to buy your version by posting on here.
I'd recommend starting your own website and sharing your version of the truth with far more people.