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Doesn't work that way silly goose coz we are on interweb ...
I disagree hugely on many levels with Jamba for example, but he will extend the courtesy of supporting his argument with citations.
It's a funny thing, although sites like 4chan might encourage the "anything goes" attitude to conversation, the rules here have been set out at the very top of the forum page. I'll quote:
[i]Respect for everyone is paramount. If we see evidence or have good reason to believe that you are looking to get a rise or to deliberately force a reaction from any other users (Trolling) then we will stop you.[/i]
You do understand it is such a joy to debate with you lot (reminders) don't you? Celebration can come in many forms so guess what I am referring to ...
Once again, the moderators have rules to ensure that debate is respectful without stifling lively conversation. I would suggest that repeatedly making an assertion in a thread without supporting evidence for that point of view merely to get a rise out of forum members is crossing that line.
[i]If you are here to chat, respectfully debate issues or ask genuine questions of the thousands of users who come here then you are welcome to stay and we have no doubts you will add positively to our huge community.[/i]
As I've said, there are a number of people on here who often hold a view that's contrary, but they seem to be able to support that view with citations. While there may be disagreement, at least there's the opportunity to understand another's point of view. With yourself, there's nothing aside from assertions. From my part, I'm trying to encourage positive discussion without resorting to repetition.
mikey74 - Member
I honestly think that if the referendum was re-run now, it would be quite a significant win for remain. I doubt anyone would be protesting if the government threw out Brexit.
I honestly think your talking nonsense. I doubt you have even considered your wrong.
Back to the discussion in hand.
The intractability of the Leave camp, this snippet from the Independent after the vote is telling:
[i]Whenever pollsters ask the public to name the most important issue facing the country, Europe and sovereignty never come anywhere near the top of the list, trailing well behind the likes of immigration, the condition of the NHS and the health of the economy. There was no mass popular clamour for last week’s referendum.[/i]
The Liberals are in grave danger of becoming a one policy party, a reverse UKIP if you like.
I'm finding it increasingly difficult to make a compelling argument to vote Liberal, however the tactical vote in my constituency dictates that this would be my only viable option. As before, I remain proudly pro-European, but I am hugely critical of the way successive British governments have treated an increasing number of people who've not enjoyed the economic successes so loudly crowed by the centre-right since 1979 (and I include the ones who wore red ties in parliament as well as those who preferred blue).
Well said pjm
I think the only thing that can stop brexit is Brexit,
once those that voted for it see that it's not going to make life better, infact worse then - if there's still time! it could be reversed.
Kimbers one point to bear in mind is that a large majority of voters are thick as pigshit. They'll believe what they are told by the daily mail, so it's a matter of what the DM tells them rather than any realisation on the part of the voters.
The electorate has largely bought in to false notions of "sovereignty" and opinion polls seem to suggest that the hardcore Leave camp would be happy to be 10% poorer if it means an end to immigration.
The sources are google-able.
We're seeing the right wing press make some quite astonishing volte-face manoeuvres, those once were all in favour of access to markets that will be closed to us. It's a fallacy that we'll simply swap a marketplace that exists twenty six miles from our shore for ones thousands of miles away, without migration being a hot topic.
But back to the liberals - they'd have an idea opportunity to present a radical manifesto and to go for broke, they'd win seats for certain, but Farron seems to lack that extra imagination and intellect to articulate how the party might exploit the current polarised political landscape.
"I honestly think that if the referendum was re-run now, it would be quite a significant win for remain"
😆
Not where I look.
"infact worse then"
One assumes that you are a multi lottery winner with your ability to read the tea leaves.
No one knows, its all best guesses.
Some guesses are better than others.
Brexit will hurt poor people.
Rich people will profit.
I'm probably just on the profit side of the line but not by much.
May really doesn't have to try as when she ****s it all up she can say " well you voted for it".
Yep, if it goes well (ahahah!) she can spout off about how good she is.
When it enevitably goes pear shaped she can say she's a public servant carrying out the will of the public, and the nasty Europeans wouldn't give her a good deal.
She's already rich and her career is safe in that respect, and that's all she cares about.. she's got no reason to give a damn how it pans out.
Look, the Tories are going for a snap election, divesting spending commitments (triple lock), allowing themselves the leeway to raise taxes and not quantifying much in there manifesto.
Doesn't take a genius to work out they think the economy is going to tank.
Figure out whether you believe economists, common sense and even the Tories' view of how badly the economy is going to do under the Tories' Brexit negotiations or the high priests of Brexit.
Me? Time to minimise outgoings and tighten belts I think.
they are not the ToriesI'm finding it increasingly difficult to make a compelling argument to vote Liberal
Only reason i voted for them as well...never when it mattered it wad during the Blair years
I think this is the real issue here and I said it when she announced it what it says is she thinks she has no way of winning after Brexit as it will be so bloody awful .Doesn't take a genius to work out they think the economy is going to tank.
TBH i doubt she even has the skill to hit the immigration target
mattsccm - Member
"infact worse then"
One assumes that you are a multi lottery winner with your ability to read the tea leaves.
nah just someone whos pissed off that im paying 5p a litre of petrol more than I would have been had the vote gone the other way
oh and someone whos industry receives 10% of its funding from the EU and knows how much more paperwork & cost is required to hire people from outside the EU vs inside
[quote=mattsccm ]"I honestly think that if the referendum was re-run now, it would be quite a significant win for remain"
Not where I look.
Well in my personal echo chamber it's 100% for remain.
Back in the real world, there was sufficient regret reported immediately after the vote that it seems likely if they'd held another one the following week remain would have won. I haven't seen any reports at all of people switching from remain to leave, though at least some of the leavers appear to have noticed the reality and come to their senses. Of course the hardcore brexiteers make a lot of noise which might be what you're hearing, but they're actually very much in a minority - the vote was swung by those who believed the promises, they made up a significant proportion of the leave vote, and they will change their minds if they haven't already.
[quote=igm ]Rich people will profit.
I'm probably just on the profit side of the line but not by much.
Either you're very rich, or you're in the happy position of benefitting because of things. The poor might be the worst hit, but a lot of people in the middle will also feel the squeeze - only a minority apart from the very rich and those in a position to exploit uncertainty will actually benefit.
also a number of them have shuffled off the mortal coil as the youth come of age so that helps sway the vote
I expect remain would win but it would still be relatively narrow - reversal of before type levels
TBH i am not sure remaining with a large number of pissed of RW loons is going to be that helpful either
aracer - l'm very lucky. But I'd be ok whichever way that vote had gone, so I'd prefer the greatest good for the greatest number - hence 100% remain here
[quote=Junkyard ]I expect remain would win but it would still be relatively narrow - reversal of before type levels
I tend to agree - the landslide in favour of remain would only come when it's way too late, because it's going to take a long time for most people to realise.
TBH i am not sure remaining with a large number of pissed of RW loons is going to be that helpful either
Snowflakes. They should accept the decision and make it work.
[quote=igm ]aracer - l'm very lucky. But I'd be ok whichever way that vote had gone, so I'd prefer the greatest good for the greatest number - hence 100% remain here
I wasn't being at all critical - mrs aracer's work is in a strange position, right now they're benefitting, because they get paid in Euros on some of their projects...
Unfortunately there's been lots of research showing that about half of remain voters now just want to get it over with, leaving only about 22% who still really want to remain. The idea that there is (yet) any groundswell towards remain is simply wishful thinking.
It might be different in a couple of years when the outcomes becomes more clear...but the same people might just double down on hating the germans.
Isn't it ironic? A Leave voting relative called me on the 24th June to tell me how happy he was that "no more bloody commissioners from Bombay can tell us what to do" and that "of course, there won't be any VAT anymore". I was treated to a eulogy about Nigel Farage too.
Thing is, that relative will be long dead before the economy recovers, much less the irreversible damage to our democracy bought by big money.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/13/millionaire-brexit-donor-targets-remain-mps ]This arsehole[/url]
Only the religious fanatics (yes Chewkw, ninfan, Jamba, I'm talking about those who would sacrifice Britain's future on the altar of xenophobic nationalism) still approve of Brexit.
nearly posted on the brexit subject on numerous occasions and decided not to, this post pretty much sums up the feeling i get from remainers on here, so i thought this time ill bite.
i voted to leave and im not racist. i also hate the conservatives. maybe i was ignorant of the implications of leaving, i still am, but then so will most of the population id say and we were all given a vote.
yes im sure therell be a proportion of bigots voting to leave, but i can tell you in my circle of friends we pretty much agreed on why to vote out. p1ssed of with the euro 'gravy train', ex bigwig politicians becoming MEPs and fiddling expenses, the seemingly absurd amount of money we had to give away to get less back. it seemed to me that it would be better just to bin all that 'euro sh1t' and trade as our own standalone country. whats wrong in just buying and selling as 'britain', rather than having to kowtow to 'europe'? in fact is it not more 'racist' to say we'll deal with europe on better terms than anyone else in the world?
you may find that argument flawed, it almost certainly is, but like i say, most of the population in this country arent au fait with the facts and figures yet we were allowed to vote so it is what it is.
main point is, we're not all racists. i wanted out of the euro deal, so did most of my mates so we voted out. if we were wrong we were wrong, but thats how we saw it, and tbh we still see it that way.
flame away.
Brexit will hurt poor people.Rich people will profit.
A very small number of very wealthy people will do well out of lower employment rights etc which will come from the Tories. Pretty much everyone else will be worse off, but esp the poor who will suffer far more from the increased austerity which will come from the inevitable decreased GDP as a result of a big drop in export of goods and services.
[quote=sadexpunk ]you may find that argument flawed, it almost certainly is
Unfortunately it's massively flawed, but it all gets quite complicated explaining it properly, so I'll leave that for now. But the main thing is that it's fundamentally bad for the economy and that's something which has the most direct impact on people's lives.
main point is, we're not all racists
I certainly haven't ever suggested you are - I also know people who voted leave, for perfectly valid, but flawed reasons. I don't think most people on here are suggesting that - not even the post you replied to.
But the main thing is that it's fundamentally bad for the economy and that's something which has the most direct impact on people's lives.
so it would seem, but is that 100% true? might it be better than people assume or are told? might we actually gain more strength from being an individual nation? might it not be as bad as people think?
might it not be as bad as people think?
It'll be worse.
so it would seem, but is that 100% true? might it be better than people assume or are told? might we actually gain more strength from being an individual nation? might it not be as bad as people think?
It's hard to see how imposing tariffs on trade between the UK and Europe will do anything other than - you guessed it - reduce that trade.
Beyond the money thing, we used to be part of an organization that did actually try (albeit badly, clumsily, ineptly) to make the world a better place.
To take one tiny example, Vodafone have finally got around to abolishing their obnoxious European roaming charges, but only after endless prodding by - you guessed it - the EU. No way would a UK government ever have contemplated going up against a big powerful international corporation to defend the interests of consumers.
(And too late, as I'm now with Three, as Vodafone's US roaming charges still suck; so much for competition driving down prices).
[quote=sadexpunk ]might we actually gain more strength from being an individual nation?
There's no obvious mechanism which will make up for the negative effects. There seems to be this optimistic idea that we will then be able to trade with lots of other countries, but it isn't really going to happen - certainly not on the same scale as what we lose.
brave of you to be so honest sadexpunk
in an increasingly global connected world, making ourselves smaller and less connected is not in our advantage
and we werent kowtowing to europe, we were one of the biggest drivers in shaping EU laws and standards, yes there was plenty wrong, but we cant change what we are not part of
working in the NHS, science and cancer research I see on a daily basis how much we gain from collaboration with the rest of the world and especially Europe (and how much we are losing already)
the problem is that the many benefits of being in the EU were not sold well by Remain and the costs in time, money and political dicking around(eg this election) will certainly outweigh any benefits and were hushed up by Leave
ultimately Im pissed off that myself and my children are having their benefits & rights as EU citizens stripped away, because 52% of the electorate believed the rubbish that farage, the xenephobic tories & the right wing press have been pumping out for decades
Its not just you im pissed at sadex its my own parents who Im still arguing with about it!
[quote=kimbers ]Its not just you im pissed at sadex its my own parents who Im still arguing with about it!
I'm not pissed at sadex at all - and likewise thanks for joining in the conversation. I'm pissed at the rich people like the one linked up there who funded the propaganda campaign.
You raise some very valid points - I can understand the sentiments expressed, even if I don't agree with them. But you glibly make an excellent point that the EU hadn't worked for everyone - something I whole heartedly agree with, even if I lay that blame closer to home.
On the flip side, the defence for remain has been overly simplistic and often patronising - you're absolutely right, not all Leave voters were motivated by racism, but it was a factor cleverly exploited by elements of the Leave campaign. Remain had absolutely no answer other than to resort to slanderous aspersions which alienated a great many skeptics.
The thing is, our presence on the world stage isn't what it was in 1973. We can't simply create a new trade bloc according to our own rules without some kind of supranational element for arbitration - I.e. If we create a pan commonwealth trading bloc, there has to be mutual benefit and a jurisdiction must be created to arbitrate upon trade disputes that's part of common law for all nations concerned. Unfortunately, the deal has to be better for the commonwealth than the one they currently access via the EU, which they'll still have access to once we're gone. Can we compete with the fifth, seventh and eighth largest economies in the world to create a trading bloc more beneficial to member states than one they already have access to?
The upshot is that in part for geographical reasons and for some time after we leave the EU, imported goods will be more expensive and that any supranational arbitration will be agreed with us bargaining from a position of weakness. we've sold and shuttered our manufacturing - for example until last October the likelihood that the chip in your mobile phone you're using to read this was British designed and profits generated from its sale went to a British business. Theresa May gave the green light to selling ARM to the Japanese. BAe sold its stake in Airbus which won't likely retain its U.K. manufacturing plant if tariffs become a factor. In any case, we're talking about low volume, highly specialised manufacturing with a tiny employment footprint - those aerospace workers will simply wither up sticks elsewhere or be replaced by European workers.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/18/tech-giant-arm-holdings-sold-to-japanese-firm-for-24bn ]ARM sale[/url]
Our banking sector is apparently off overseas, we're going to face enormous upheaval. There is a school of thought that near destruction of an economy will lead to inevitable diversification and rapid regrowth - the so called "shock doctrine" or "disaster capitalism" was the driver for the rapid post war recovery of West Germany and Japan for example:
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/11145801/This-Changes-Everything-Naomi-Klein.html ]Shock doctrine[/url]
I daresay that there's a suspicion amongst some on the political right that the current form of capitalism has reached its zenith, after years of weak growth. Maybe the concept is to be applied here. However, it's not without huge risk:
[url= https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2015/09/28/04/53/sp102309 ]The IMF (not to be confused with the EMF).[/url]
So there you have it. You can of course take this as a load of old shit from some biffer from the internet, or you can lobby to try to retain some access to a trading bloc just off our shores where we might continue to share prosperity, even if we no longer have a voice in a pan-national parliament.
might we actually gain more strength from being an individual nation?
How? Point me to the plan to make this happen…
The thing is, neither you nor I know enough to form this plan… but somone must have one, if you think it's possible. That idea came from somewhere, yes? As a Leave voter, you've at least checked that someone has a plan, yes? If not, what did you vote for? Burn down what we have and hope someone comes up with a plan within 24 months?
There was never a plan, I strongly suspect there still isn't one. The election has been called to stamp "the will of the people" on the mandate that will allow the UKIP-Conservatives to do as they please, under the protective caveat that they were merely following the instruction of the electorate, thus absolving ministers from retribution further down the line.
But to blame a self-confessed Leave voter for voting Leave is a fallacy - none of us had the full story, we all voted according to incomplete information.
might it be better than people assume or are told?
Not even May agrees hence the election now- ie those in charge know even if some us have still not seen it
being isolated [ and smaller]rarely makes one stronger. How do you think this may happen?might we actually gain more strength from being an individual nation?
I think the reality is it wont be as great as the brexiters hoped whether it is as bad as remainers said i think the lack of agreement means worse. Almost everyone agrees it will be worse and those who do not have political aspiration not matched by anything occurring in reality.might it not be as bad as people think?
WHAT?Leave voters were motivated by racism, but it was a factor cleverly exploited by elements of the Leave campaign. Remain had absolutely no answer other than to resort to slanderous aspersions which alienated a great many skeptics.
leave played the race card to appeal to racists and pointing this out was a "slanderous aspiration"?
Sorry Junkyard, to clarify my point I'm merely saying that the remain camp had no counter to the thorny issue of immigration and nationalism. Whilst I agree that a lot of Leave voters were motivated because they were told that 1.5m Turks would arrive any day, remain should have had the balls to admit that no-one gave a shit about those left behind by the London-centric relative prosperity for thirty five odd years, to the point that they were amazed that millions of people who'll never afford their own home working on zero hour contracts were cynically manipulated into a polarised protest vote.
As I said, not all Leave voters are racists, but those that were had no explaination as to why the status quo had failed them. I've no time or respect for racists, but I don't feel that attempts to shame them into silence was conducive to winning a polarised campaign.
Sadex - 'Twas my words you quoted, and therefore perhaps it was my ramblings that pushed you over the edge. So may I take opportunity to reply.
First almost all your comments about the EU could also be made about Westminster. Now I'm not saying you would like to remove your self from domination by the UK government too (maybe you would) but the arguments are identical. And there is far more bureaucracy in Westminster/Whitehall than the EU.
Second you make an interesting case for the EU in some ways. Everything you have said is what is wrong with the EU - there's nothing about what would be good about not-the-EU. And that is because the alternative is worse. You'd think after 11 months someone would have found something positive - instead of which we have a government minister (Fallon) telling us the Tories haven't quantified just how bad it's going to be because while they accept it is going to be bad they just haven't worked out how long the pain will last yet. That's them putting a positive spin on it.
Also we got about twice the tax take out of increased trade that we paid in membership fees by my calculations.
I accept that not all Brexies are racist. But please accept a lot of the Brexies I've met are.
And as for my characterisation of Brexit as a religion, that is simply because it is a not based on logic or reason but on faith and belief. You can't are argue against it logically because it was never based on logic in the first place.
But for now, inflation higher than wage growth, the economy slowing significantly (both driven by the fall in the pound), stock market making money to be fair (for the better off and driven by the pound's fall), unemployment set to leave the record lows we have enjoyed within the EU - and the real pain not yet started (as you can tell by the Tories' election stance).
And after all that, ignoring it all, I'd still have a soft spot for the EU on the back of its part in the fact that neither I nor my father had to fight in a Franco-Anglo-German war - unlike every generation for hundreds of years.
So the EU, on the downside a bit it red tape and expense fiddling (we can get that from the British Union parliament - we don't need foreign assistance), on the plus side peace, prosperity, greater freedom on an individual level and the opportunity to create something larger than ourselves.
Make sense?
Got friends in higher education saying student numbers are significantly down, far less foreign students applying. May mean some universities end up in massive financial trouble.
I agree I have discussed this with friends of the traditional working classes become a tiny bit racist / concerned with immigrationthe remain camp had no counter to the thorny issue of immigration and nationalism.
you are correct most of us have no way of pandering to this racism or spinning it in a positive way that will reengage them. The only message is the simple and incorrect one of blaming immigrants for all our economic woes. Clearly getting out the data is not going to convince them they are wrong. I have no idea what to do but I also dont really want to try and win over incorrect racist very much.
I dont think the left has an answer to their woes where as the right is happy to do a dog whistle campaign or make immigration a line in the sand - all be it one they have never even got close to achieving.
I wonder if elections should just be fought on simplistic untrue soundbites as they seem to win them..strong and stable being the latest example
Perhaps we should realise, as state earlier, that much of the electorate is thick as shit and wont really grasp complicated issues so give them a simplistic answer to a complicated problem
immigrants are a boon. they contribute more and take less out of the economy than the average brit
TJ +1
we know this but that answer is not convincing the traditional working classes who view them as people who have stolen their jobs and driven wages down.
The point is how to negate this and its not with a 10 page report and some charts.
You are going over the same ground as the EU thread. Been done to death, argument was won by Leave in 2016.
Lib Dem are the "Remain" party in this GE and they are an irrelevance electorally. People don't care about what they have to say.
Round 1 of the argument was won by the Brexies in 2016 Jamba. But not done to death - much as you'd like to claim it has been.
This isn't over for at least a generation. Actually I think the most likely thing to end the argument is the breakup of the UK. Not that I'm suggesting that is entirely imminent.
Junkyard - agreed. You can't use logic against religion.
Completely agree with Junkyard's points here.
Liberal Democrats, can they stop Brexit?
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/the-top-ten-questions-to-which-the-answer-is-no-8788687.html ]QTWTAIN[/url]
This isn't a question of whether they can win but a question of, if they did win, can they legally stop Brexit now?
From the OP.
That is not a QTWTAIN. That's a perhaps, in fact probably yes.
They are not of course going to win.
have you read about the[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game ] ultimatum game[/url]? Saw a few reference it around the referendum. A lot of us prospered from EU, everything suggests the UK as a whole did, but some prospered more than others. Poor people in poor communities didn't like the way "the elite" in london were making a fortune from it all. Place in wales, ex-mining town I think, got a lot of EU subsidy, overwhelmingly Leave-ers. Possibly lack of education (about eu issues not generally), possibly protest vote, but you got a bunch of people who are going to fair the worst from it voting for brexit.p1ssed of with the euro 'gravy train', ex bigwig politicians becoming MEPs and fiddling expenses, the seemingly absurd amount of money we had to give away to get less back.
of course a very select few are making a killing off leaving, wonder what the venn diagram of them, media owners and tory party donors looks like....
[quote=jambalaya ]argument was won by Leave in 2016
If by "argument won" you mean "lies believed" then that is indeed true.
The point is how to negate this and its not with a 10 page report and some charts.
For some generations this is now impossible.
Anything we do to argue this point will be shouted down by "are you calling us racist?" and, "stop snearing at us."
As shown by comments on this forum.
If you don't blame migration, you are both an out of touch lefty and a capitalist seeking to crush UK born workers.
LibDems can't win as they aren't prepared to pretend that migration is to blame.
Neither Conservative or Labour leaderships, current or previous, really think that reducing/controlling immigration would be positive for the UK, but they know that they have to push this line to stand any chance of winning. You can't change the mind of older generations on this, and they vote.
My suspicion is that often the correct answer to "are you calling us racist?" is yes.
We need to shy away from generalisations, but when we see it call it.
And when we see the suspicion of it, call that.
Zero tolerance of intolerance - if you no what I mean.
brave of you to be so honest sadexpunk
thanks, but it doesnt feel brave, i dont mind sticking my head above the parapet to be shot at here, i think its interesting to have a discussion on why i voted the way i did. if i made a booboo then should i have been allowed to have a vote? if we were in a position where we may make a change to the detriment of the country, then dont give us a vote! youre running the country (badly), not us.
making ourselves smaller and less connected is not in our advantage
why tho? can it not be that we're just smaller but with less people to have to worry about. does the size matter, do we need to be 'big'?
To take one tiny example, Vodafone have finally got around to abolishing their obnoxious European roaming charges, but only after endless prodding by - you guessed it - the EU. No way would a UK government ever have contemplated going up against a big powerful international corporation to defend the interests of consumers.
but if they hadnt, then just move to a different provider, free market and all that, hit em in the pocket. im on the three network in kefalonia at the minute, no roaming charges at all, it comes out of my normal data.
working in the NHS, science and cancer research I see on a daily basis how much we gain from collaboration with the rest of the world and especially Europe (and how much we are losing already)
why do we need to be joined to europe to collaborate on cancer research etc? can we not do the same research as a standalone country would? what constraints to research will there now be?
How? Point me to the plan to make this happen…
absolutely no idea, i dont have a plan why should i.
As a Leave voter, you've at least checked that someone has a plan, yes?
nope. i dont do politics, which brings me back to........should we have been allowed to vote then?
If not, what did you vote for?
i was asked to vote, same as the rest of the population, and i based my decision the same as most people, on conversations with workmates, friends, in pubs, bits of tv interviews, so your decision is generally based around your environment. you listen to peoples views and either agree or disagree with them. i also enjoy reading peoples views on here, but obviously i didnt read enough 'remain or we're stuffed' chitchat to register with me.
and thinking about it, even if i had i probably wouldnt understand it, much as the rest of this thread. i understand theres some clever, informed people who know what theyre talking about, but also theres the same with opposing views, so who's right? i tend to just switch off to things i dont understand and look at the big picture. to me, we paid in more than we got out. reverse that and we're richer.
First almost all your comments about the EU could also be made about Westminster. Now I'm not saying you would like to remove your self from domination by the UK government too (maybe you would) but the arguments are identical. And there is far more bureaucracy in Westminster/Whitehall than the EU.
youll be right there, im under no illusion that we've 'sorted them politicians out', but in my mind i was just removing one layer of sh1t.
Perhaps we should realise, as state earlier, that much of the electorate is thick as shit and wont really grasp complicated issues
exactly.
immigrants are a boon. they contribute more and take less out of the economy than the average brit
agreed. just to play devils advocate tho, i dont think its the immigrants putting into the system that some people are against (altho obviously yer actual racists are), its what they read in the sh1t tabloids about hordes of foreigners breaking into to the country in the back of lorries and parking themselves up at the nearest dole office saying can i have a house and benefits please. (FWIW i dont know if the papers still print that sh1te or not, i dont read em.)
spose to sum it up, im not clever enough to understand the implications of the vote, neither are most people. in very simplistic terms i voted to stop giving millions away to brussels and trade as a standalone country and to remove a layer of MEP sh1t and give a poke in the eye to our glorious leaders who wanted to stay. if they want you to stay in then youre probably better off doing the opposite.
see? dangerous isnt it. i was allowed to vote on that. please dont judge me too harshly.
EDIT: just re-read it and realised it makes me sound a little argumentative which isnt my intention. the points im 'arguing' are more questioning really as i dont understand.
why do we need to be joined to europe to collaborate on cancer research etc? can we not do the same research as a standalone country would? what constraints to research will there now be?
Collaboration allows the right people to work together from across a continent. Visa rules and penalties for employment of foreign workers will make it harder to host that collaboration in the UK. The UK could do its own research but it would risk duplication and wasting effort.
Among many things the advantages of being joined and linked for trade, science and much more easily outweigh the concerns.
in very simplistic terms i voted to stop giving millions away to brussels and trade as a standalone country and to remove a layer of MEP sh1t and give a poke in the eye to our glorious leaders who wanted to stay. if they want you to stay in then youre probably better off doing the opposite.
see? dangerous isnt it. i was allowed to vote on that. please dont judge me too harshly.
As. Is your want, now live with the consequences.
... to sum it up, im not clever enough to understand the implications of the vote, neither are most people.
That's the big point, for me - CMD's decision to call the referendum was criminal, way too big and important a decision to leave to the populace.
immigrants are a boon. they contribute more and take less out of the economy than the average brit
You miss out an important caveat
"On average"
The thing about relying on the average as a safe and comforting defence is that it becomes all too easy to ignore the all too real abuses and impacts that people at the lower end of society witness, and it is these that they were kicking against in the referendum.
People hear the politicians and comforted bourgeoise telling them that immigrants aren't being given council houses, while watching it happen in their street. They are told that immigration has no effect on jobs and wages, (relying once again on that pesky average caveat) but watch the vans full of immigrant workers driving through the factory gates.
Averages are the last resort of the dishonest man - its like claiming that a swimming pool is only three feet deep on average, well that's fine if you are standing in the shallow end.
Collaboration allows the right people to work together from across a continent. Visa rules and penalties for employment of foreign workers will make it harder to host that collaboration in the UK. The UK could do its own research but it
Why is a continent so important there? It would be far easier for us to have that relationship and collaboration with the highly advanced English speaking nations of the world - US, Canada, Australia etc than with Europe. In fact the travesty is that our relationship with Europe has prevented us doing that. Your argument falls apart when you realise that the collaboration you say is so important doesn't stop at the European border, so having that freedom only within Europe has no benefit
They are told that immigration has no effect on jobs and wages, (relying once again on that pesky average caveat) but watch the vans full of immigrant workers driving through the factory gates.
and people are also sick of the absence of any facts, making statements that rely on anecdote and somebodies experience somewhere.
Part of the problem was not addressing some of the concerns, the bigger problem were those exploiting the concerns in inflating the numbers and impacts.
It was also very evident that gaps in skills, training and job creation in some areas was firmly due to successive governments from both sides of the floor not giving a damm about those people.
and people are also sick of the absence of any facts
You mean the 'facts' that came out of studies that were carried out by the same borgeoise who wanted to keep us in Europe, and funded by EU research grants?
Ask a loaded question, get a loaded answer.
People hear the politicians and comforted bourgeoise telling them that immigrants aren't being given council houses, while watching it happen in their street. They are told that immigration has no effect on jobs and wages, (relying once again on that pesky average caveat) but watch the vans full of immigrant workers driving through the factory gates.
Ninfan is absolutely bang on.
So no I can see the Lib Dems making no gains whatsoever this election, they might even go backwards.
Ask a loaded question, get a loaded answer.
Sorry I forgot you don't like things that disagree with your opinions...
Sorry I forgot you don't like things that disagree with your opinions...
Strangely however, It seems like the majority of the electorate agree with me.
what makes you think that your understanding of the issues is better than theirs? That your opinion is right, and theirs wrong?
In the words of Shakespeare - "The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."
what makes you think that your understanding of the issues is better than theirs?
This is where you are getting things confused.
Firstly the areas with the least immigration were some of the bigger leave votes - whats their issues and experiences?
Next up you refuse to listen to facts or experts, what formed the opinions in people, what are their actual issues and how are they caused by immigration?
How did government policy help these people to move on with their lives, how did the government work to fix these problems over the last 10 years?
How much did leave play the race card in attempts to divide the population?
How much did leave play the race card in attempts to divide the population?
What race are polish people then? EU immigration has been almost exclusively white & catholic.
What race are polish people then? EU immigration has been almost exclusively white & catholic.
Apologies, you're going to evade it all by being pedantic again. Enjoy your day...
Sorry I forgot you don't like things that disagree with your opinions...
How much did leave play the race card in attempts to divide the population?
What race are polish people then? EU immigration has been almost exclusively white & catholic.
Why so much focus on Turkey joining the EU (despite it not happening and UK having a veto)?
What about the leaflets focusing on Turkey, and its non-EU neighbours?
How many white Catholics in that poster Farage stood in front of?
Anything we do to argue this point will be shouted down by "are you calling us racist?" and, "stop snearing at us."
can we not do the same research as a standalone country would?
How can anyone reply to this without appearing to be snearing…?
Do you really think research happens within a national bubble?
Snearing, snearing, snearing trump card in play.what makes you think that your understanding of the issues is better than theirs? That your opinion is right, and theirs wrong?
Farage wasn't part of the vote leave campaign
PS, kelvin, it's spelt 'sneering' (he said, condescendingly 😉 )
And what?
Ah, Turkey
UK government policy was to remain in the EU
UK government policy was to support The long term goal of Turkish EU accession
So what was your problem with it being an issue in the referendum?
Take a look at that Leave leaflet again… why the focus on Iraq and Syria?
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No more engagement with you from now on Ninfan, waste of my time.
Anyway… LibDems don't use these techniques, and they work, so no, they won't make much of an impact in the current political climate. This is a country of nationalists now, encouraged by papers owned by foreign interests.
ninfan - MemberAh, Turkey
UK government policy was to remain in the EU
UK government policy was to support The long term goal of Turkish EU accession
And which member of that government supported Turkish accession? Why, none other than our dear old Boris Johnson!
ninfan - Member
Farage wasn't part of the vote leave campaign
If you're going to be condescendingly pedantic, you need to understand the use of lowercase there old niffer.
😆
The leave campaign (note lowercase) happily recreated that old Nazi poster (probably coincidence) using people with non-white skins in the shot. Fronted by your old mate Farage.
But I'm sure it wasn't slightly racist or a wee bit fascist.
EU immigration has been almost exclusively white & catholic.
Which will be a huge disappointment to the Brexies banking on a reduction in the numbers of non-whites - when they realise it.