[Closed] Liberal Democrats, can they stop Brexit?

There is no precedent; if they got voted in on a manifesto of brexin then I'd assume that the R27 nations would be relatively happy to tear the letter up and consider the last year a bad dream.

No

the ref wasn't legally binding, so technically yes they can. The treaties say nothing about changing your mind one A50 triggers. So technically they could.

in reality, englandshire has gone full tory and full brexit, so not a hope in hell.

Legally probably doesn't matter.

Like tojv says if we say sorry about that as you were the rest of the EU would probably say ok just don't do it again.

Of course a few more weeks of May-isms, Fox-yous, deviant-Davis and Boris Johnson and they might think twice about calling off Brexit - there's only so much aggression the other 27 will take.

in reality, englandshire has gone full tory and full brexit, so not a hope in hell.

Their tactic of negotiating and taking us to the very edge may be the best plan.

Yeh, wot he said

Lib Dems never gonna come close to being in power.

Edited to say, just read again about it being hypothetical.

So in theory, yes they could stop it I think.

The best chance of avoiding Brexit now is a Labour lib-dem / SNP coalition. Maybe even Plaid.

To win power Labour would have no problem jumping in with SNP and would accept a 2nd referendum to avoid a 2nd Scottish referendum. My prospective Labour MP *promised* me the night before last when she came knocking for votes that if Labour win they will propose a version of Brexit that's materially the same as the relationship we have now, bar the fact we won't have any MEPs which seems sad, but as most of the things the hardcore Brexit crowd damand we already have, why not.

Lib-dem would have to send in the storm troopers to hammer the population if they want to do a U-turn and have it their way ... 😆

I honestly think that if the referendum was re-run now, it would be quite a significant win for remain. I doubt anyone would be protesting if the government threw out Brexit.

I believe it could be stopped if the other member states were happy to along with it.

mikey74 - Member
I honestly think that if the referendum was re-run now, it would be quite a significant win for remain. I doubt anyone would be protesting if the government threw out Brexit.

You will never get that chance again. 😆

slowoldman - Member
I believe it could be stopped if the other member states were happy to along with it.

From the BBC news website

But European Council President Donald Tusk has said that he believes Article 50 can be reversed.

When asked if the UK could unilaterally withdraw its Article 50 notification during the next two years, he said, "Formally, legally, yes."

Lord Kerr - the former British ambassador to the EU, who helped draft Article 50 - agreed.

"You can change your mind while the process is going on," he said.

He acknowledged that this might annoy the rest of the EU, and be seen as a huge waste of time

Yes, why not?

And the Tories are shitting bricks because the majority is fed up of their lies.

The only wasted vote is voting for more of the same again. 😉

[img] [/img]

My prospective Labour MP *promised* me the night before last when she came knocking for votes that if Labour win they will propose a version of Brexit that's materially the same as the relationship we have now, bar the fact we won't have any MEPs which seems sad

I think this is the best option to avert total economic and constitutional catastrophe.

The Lib Dems are an irrelevance, I wasted votes on them all my life not realising they were just a haven for PPE graduates looking for a job, with no convictions other than getting on the political gravy train, culminating in that total waste of space Clegg.

As to could they? Unlikely and if any of the thinking I hear, if they re ran the referendum, 68% now want out as a result of all the threats and coercion coming from Brussels.

So no, my opinion is not, they are just a wasted vote more now than ever before.

I'm sure Europe would allow a UTurn, but 50% of the British electorate wouldn't.

The libs are being quite intelligent and sensitive about it.
They've said that the UK voted for a departure and not a destination.

Basically another referendum will be held on the final proposal, if it's Really damaging which it probably will be, there will be an opportunity to vote 'well that was all a bit silly wasn't it'.

Then that would open the door to say to Europe, yeh we thought about this properly and don't want to do that anymore'.

I'm pretty sure the response from the EU would be, cool, glad you came to your senses.

The lib dems seem to have rulled out any coalition though, I guess they are still burned from the university fees fiasco, which was a tory policy and they were a minority in the lib tory coalition, and they seemed to take all the flack for it, even from thier own supporters.

In my view that's very narrow minded, they kept the torys in check for the most part and did an incredible job, but something had to give, given thier secondary status in the coalition.

Through violence and force?

now that inflation caused by brexit is outstripping wage growth
5p a litre a petrol thanks to the referendum etc

youd think that yes itd be possible

lib/lab coalition , could pull it off

with a tory win looking likely the only chance is that we crash out with a hard brexit and it goes tits up sooner rather than later

of course the ardcore brexies wouldnt be happy but importantly by 2019 1.5 million of the older ones wouldve popped their cloggs by then.

I know a lot of them, including some on here, are bitterly dissapointed that the GREAT Britain leaving the EU hasnt caused everyone else to jump ship after all

P-Jay can't see your idea of a coalition working firstly I think Tories and media have managed to make the SNP toxic for a lot of people in England. Second the one thing that the SNP would insist on as part of any deal would be a referendum on independence.

mattyfez - Member
I'm sure Europe would allow a UTurn, ...

I doubt anyone would be protesting if the government threw out Brexit.

i think a re run vote would be close either way but legally yes the govt could do it.

To win power Labour would have no problem jumping in with SNP

Labour would never join a coalition with the SNP. They wouldn't even consider it, not for a second, such is their hatred for the SNP.

doubt the SNP would go into "official" coalition either. Not to say that some other arrangement couldn't work, but i doubt you'll be seeing alex salmond or angus robertson as vice pm.

i think a re run vote would be close either way but legally yes the govt could do it.

I hear, if they re ran the referendum, 68% now want out as a result of all the [s]threats and coercion coming from Brussels.[/s] bullshit being pedaled by the press

pretty sure a lot would -UKIP, jamby and chewkw to name a few - boris who knows

One things for sure, May would change her stance to reflect popular opinion as she does not seem to have one of her own.

That's what disturbs me most about her, she's a career politician interested in enriching herself before anything else, and that's the worst kind of person to have as a prime minister.

5p a litre a petrol thanks to the referendum etc

Fuel cost issues are short termism.

That's the problem with UK politics, they seem to be snowblind to anything that might happen in 10, 20 or 50 years which is still short term in my book.

It's a big concern for me, they are supposed to be running a country, and looking after peoples future's.

I'm not seeing any strategy from the Conservatives.

A lot of people who voted out are at the bottom end of society anyway, they've never had any money so an promise of "things will be better if we change our minds and stay in" wont be enough to counter the incandescent rage a change of mind would provoke.

Change the decision and you'd better be ready for that sector to take to the streets. They don't care about your multinational trade, tariff free zones, open borders and skills transfers, they just want their decision to be honoured. Sick of being talked down to, neglected and forgotten about, they'll not back down this time.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

I think some people have actually woken up, however there are die hards who hate Europe for reasons that don't exist or they cannot explain.

If we do leave with theresea, they'll still blame Europe even though they voted to remove thier own rights and working regulations.

I'm not sure how that can be remedied.. Horse to water and all that.

It's very sad.

mattyfez - Member

pretty sure a lot would -UKIP, jamby and chewkw to name a few - boris who knows

One things for sure, May would change her stance to reflect popular opinion as she does not seem to have one of her own.

You might as well say you are the govt now going by the reasoning provided by you lot.

You might as well claim to be the master of the universe ... 😆

That's what disturbs me most about her, she's a career politician interested in enriching herself before anything else, and that's the worst kind of person to have as a prime minister.

Have you just convinced yourself? 😆

Define 'you lot'?

Are you referring to approximately 50% of people, the one's that actually think critically as opposed to forming opinions based on reading tabloid headlines?

You will never get that chance again.

This country is supposedly a democracy, so the chance will come again and again.

Make no mistake we will return.

mattyfez - Member
Define 'you lot'?

Are you referring to approximately 50% of people, the one's that actually think critically as opposed to reading tabloid headlines?

The ones that are opposing the govt.

You (EU bureaucrats supporters) can think critically? That's new coz I thought you (EU bureaucrats supporters) follow everything EU bureaucrats dictate to you (supporters). Yes? 😆

You "wasted" your vote on Lib/Dems?

Is it because you are betting on who will win with your vote or supporting their policies but you actually disagree with them.. 😕

Voting for the side you think is likely to have the best chance of winning is ridiculous. What can you possibly gain?

Vote for the policies you think are best, otherwise you may as well not bother using your vote...

El-bent - Member

You will never get that chance again.

This country is supposedly a democracy, so the chance will come again and again.
Make no mistake we will return.

But in the meantime can you (EU bureaucrats supporters) not let us celebrate, enjoy and savor the moment for few generations to come ... 😆

You are even invited to the joyous celebration and happiness for all.

I don't think anyone is claiming the EU system is perfect.

But it's a God damn utopia compared to the alternative.

The ones that are opposing the govt.

The government should always be opposed, it's what keeps them on thier toes, competent opposition is healthy and should be encouraged.

But in the meantime can you (EU bureaucrats supporters) not let us celebrate, enjoy and savor the moment for few generations to come ...

You can have your moment, your victory, I'm quite relaxed about it...these next few years will be all about giving you brexiters just enough rope to hang yourselves with.

gordimhor - Member
P-Jay can't see your idea of a coalition working firstly I think Tories and media have managed to make the SNP toxic for a lot of people in England. Second the one thing that the SNP would insist on as part of any deal would be a referendum on independence.

I reckon it could work, the SNPs justification for the second vote on Scotland is based on Brexit, reverse A50, devolve some more power to Scotland and they'll make unhappy bedfellows.

It's a bit moot though, I know the polls can't be trusted these days, but it looks like a Tory majority at the moment, I think the best left wing thinkers can hope for is the utter destruction of UKIP which is more than likely and a more centralist May who might do as she promised (there's an idea) come up with a deal that everyone (well almost everyone) can live with.

*news flash *

UKIP are redundant now. They were a one trick pony, The Conservatives have moved slightly to the right and authitaian position and pinched all thier voters.

Define 'you lot'?

I think by "you lot", he just means the British.

That's my translation, anyway,

mattyfez - Member
*news flash *

UKIP are redundant now. They were a one trick pony, The Conservatives have moved slightly to the right and authitaian position and pinched all thier voters.

kelvin - Member

Define 'you lot'?

I think by "you lot", he just means the British.

That's my translation, anyway,

There are British and there are British EU bureaucrats apologists, but guess which one I am referring to ... 😆

British - you certainly seem to want to hurt Britain

@kimbers
Some folks, like hospital doctors, have had inflation outstripping wage growth for a while. 0.28% in 2014. 1% for 2017. And that might well be 1% awarded in 2 parts over the year like past years.

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/DDRB_recommends_pay_rise_of_1%2525_for_doctors

Legally/theoretically yes, it would require the approval of the other 27 EU members. The Lib Dems may have to agree to other new conditions, eg abolish budget rebate, full Schengen, join the euro ?

The Lib Dems are targetting in increase from 9 to 18 seats. They are going to fail. They could get less than 9, senior party figures are speaking up that the anti-Brexit message is not working

That legality Jamba is still being tested is it not?

The reality is that legality wouldn't matter. The law is a minimum standard that you can go beyond.

igm - Member
British - you certainly seem to want to hurt Britain

You (remainders) are trying to pawn/sell UK/British to the EU bureaucrats for your own interest.

Silly goose. 😆

The Lib Dems are targetting in increase from 9 to 18 seats. They are going to fail. They could get less than 9, senior party figures are speaking up that the anti-Brexit message is not working

I find myself agreeing with Jamba yet again.

I fully expect Lib Dems to lose as many seats as they gain as the UKIP/Tory vote merges in the seats they're defending and targeting.

The message isn't working because people genuinely believe that Brexit is a done deal, because most papers and the leadership of the two main parties have kept pushing home the message that it is. It isn't.

Most surveys show that a very large majority now think that Brexit now has to happen, even though the same surveys show that a small majority think it's a mistake.[b] A mistake that has to happen. [/b]That's how easily led we Brits are.

but guess which one I am referring to ...

Guessing what on earth you're on about is rarely worth the effort.

The main jist this time seems to be that you think [b]we[/b] Brits shouldn't get to vote on [b]our[/b] future.

Of course it's a mistake.

Only the religious fanatics (yes Chewkw, ninfan, Jamba, I'm talking about those who would sacrifice Britain's future on the altar of xenophobic nationalism) still approve of Brexit.

Edit: just been walking back in the sunshine with my German neighbour.

The meaningful vote thing is actually a good policy, just a shame nobody had the balls to force it through with the A50 bill as it would have at least made who was negotiating/flouncing have to think a little harder.
At this stage they probably do need a leaders debate, one to show all May really has is pointing at JC and going full pantomime.

kelvin - Member
The main jist this time seems to be that you think we Brits shouldn't get to vote on our future.

igm - Member
Only the religious fanatics (yes Chewkw, ninfan, Jamba, I'm talking about those who would sacrifice Britain's future on the altar of xenophobic nationalism) still approve of Brexit.

Second the one thing that the SNP would insist on as part of any deal would be a referendum on independence.

Of course Labour could never enter a coalition with them as they stole all their Scottish seats and there is way too much resentment for that.

I'm not seeing any strategy from the Conservatives.

Eh? Does "lining their own pockets" not count as a strategy?

You can have your moment, your victory, I'm quite relaxed about it...these next few years will be all about giving you brexiters just enough rope to hang yourselves with.

If only they would (hang themselves) literally or metaphorically. However, instead they'll just blame someone else when the UK doesn't miraculously return to a 1950s empire ruling, white only, dystopian fantasy....

I'm pretty sure a lot of them wouldn't be able to tie the knot properly either.

Death by strangulation isn't pretty.

And we get to yet add another subject to the (very) long list of things that Chewkw doesn't understand.

When they find out that Muslamia isn't actually a country and isn't actually in europe and they won't actually be affected by any extra immigration barriers the old people in this country might changet their minds.

And we get to yet add another subject to the (very) long list of things that Chewkw doesn't understand.

What, cycling?

I'm not seeing any strategy from the Conservatives.

It's called business as usual ie continue to minise taxation for non-doms, corporations and the rich in general. All of whom will benefit, from reduced labour costs, as the UK continues it's transition to a low skill, low wage, zero job security economy.

Simple answer is 'No,' sadly I don't think they'll get enough seats to make a differnece. I'm somewhat torn by what to do with my vote, always voted lib dem but a) I'm not convinced by Tim Farron and b) last time the conservatives won by me with a handful of votes (well three handfulls actually) so might actually make a difference voting labour. But I don't believe Corbyn will do anything useful to moderate Brexit anyway.

I honestly think that if the referendum was re-run now, it would be quite a significant win for remain. I doubt anyone would be protesting if the government threw out Brexit.

Re tactical voting I always used to say it was cobblers, vote for who you want, this time around I'm thinking it might actually be a good idea.

@chewkw:

Once again, fact confused with personal assertion without any citation to support your point.

You (remainders) sold out to EU bureaucrats in the name of whatever you think suits you

Celebrate what exactly?

But in the meantime can you (EU bureaucrats supporters) not let us celebrate, enjoy and savor the moment for few generations to come ...

Seriously, what's there to celebrate? I hear a great deal about "taking back control" but no-one has been able to articulate exactly what that means.

ghostlymachine - Member
And we get to yet add another subject to the (very) long list of things that Chewkw doesn't understand.

Other than simply saying something I am sure you are incapable of listing them ... 😆

oldnpastit - Member
What, cycling?

PJM1974 - Member
@chewkw:

Once again, fact confused with personal assertion without any citation to support your point.

Seriously, what's there to celebrate? I hear a great deal about "taking back control" but no-one has been able to articulate exactly what that means.

Celebration can come in many forms so guess what I am referring to ...

mikewsmith - Member

Celebration can come in many forms so guess what I am referring to ...

I can only assume we really don't want to to be looking at your web cam right now.

I guess your celebrating paying more taxes or your employer paying more to employ you? Well done have a cookie.

There is zero chance of the SNP going into coaltion with anyone at westminster. what they would do is a supply and confidence deal

There is zero chance of

Nope - on this one itws as cear and certain as anything can be.

1) the tribalism of scttish labour means they will not accept a coalition with the SNP - look at the situation in Scotland where most of the councils have no overall control and labour are doing deals with the tories to keep the SNP out and 2) the SNP would not want to be hamstrung in the way the lib dems were.

Supply and confidence deal is possible. Coalition is simply not politically possible nor desirable for anyone

I'll still wait to see the question asked. It's about delivering the best you can and how you do that. Anyone setting out rules before is an idiot.

realpolitik is the reason

there is no advantage to either labour or the snp in a formal coalition. Supply and confidence deal is the only possible answer

[quote=mattyfez ]The lib dems seem to have rulled out any coalition though, I guess they are still burned from the university fees fiasco, which was a tory policy and they were a minority in the lib tory coalition, and they seemed to take all the flack for it, even from thier own supporters.
In my view that's very narrow minded, they kept the torys in check for the most part and did an incredible job, but something had to give, given thier secondary status in the coalition.

There does still seem to be a lot of stupidity over this. The LibDems played realpolitik, got a new student loans arrangement which made it a far more progressive "tax" with only those graduates in highly paid jobs worse off, yet apparently this is bad because they broke a promise and that outweighs all the good things they did.

Thing is Aracer - by entering coalition and declaring they were in it for 5 years the lib dems gave away all their power. S&D does not commit you to voting for all tory policies - just those in the manifesto. If the lib dems had done this we would not have seen the selloff of the post office cheap and a lot of other things

et apparently this is bad because they broke a promise and that outweighs all the good things they did.

The level to which they betrayed their supporters is going to take a long time to recover from by the looks of it. With them being the only UK party that are clearly anti-Brexit I thought they'd be able to recover at least some of the ground they lost when it became clear they were turncoat scum that'd do anything for a sniff of power and a couple of ministerial cars, however that's not looking to be the case.

If the lib dems had done this we would not have seen the selloff of the post office cheap and a lot of other things

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

I said this before they went into coalition. It was obvious then they were doing the wrong thing and it was a very close decision in the lib demns with many senior figures saying coalition ws wrong.