[Closed] Lib Dems

All parties have made a U turn on something at some point......

Personally I think we send too many people to university to do pointless degrees which just wastes money, so it's not something I'd hold against them....

[i]Lib Dems[/i]

Ooo, Dat?

I'm sure their comment would be clearly you don't understand democracy.....

If you'd voted them in to a majority government then you could hold them to that promise.....

All parties have made a U turn on something at some point......

Never mind tuition fees; joining with the Tory attacks on the vulnerable is unforgivable. If there is any justice the LDs are dead men walking; but justice is a scarce commodity these days.

Personally I think we send too many people to university to do pointless degrees which just wastes money, so it's not something I'd hold against them....

True but the hike in fee's hasn't helped that.

[i]but justice is a scarce commodity these days. [/i]

[i]"It's the ecomony, stupid"[/i]
[img] [/img]

I used to vote Lib Dem, never again.

I sent Greg Mulholland (Lib Dem MP for North Leeds where I used to live) an email regarding the student fees fiasco and the general u-turn in all their policies and that they have basically lost a generation of their core voters because of their sellout to the Tories.

The only response I got was a cut and paste general reply from a staffer saying how Greg was committed to repairing pot holes in the Hyde Park student area, therefore somehow negating his responsibility for saddling the future generation with crippling debt.

I truly think that the future for British democracy lies in some sort of proportional representation / regional assembly model. No more false dichotomy of 3 different colours with the same centrist neoliberal policies.

Don't hold your breath...

Poor LD, they used to be the default protest party. Now they don't even fulfil that role.

And they are forced to wear nasty yellow ties. Must be a fun concference

I'd rather have these tuition fees/loans, than the ones I do have where the threshold for repayment is dropping in real terms.

That said I'd rather they were abolished.

However, I'm pretty much Lib Dem, and I will still voting for them. They haven't sold out, they have 'gone tory', they joined a coalition with a very different minded party (pretty ambitious) and have created a very different government to if the Tory's have called a second general election and scraped a majority. Now it wasn't the Lib dem dream land, but anyone who expected it to be devoid of compromise was deluding themselves.

They were handed a poison chalice, they could either drink, or die of thirst.

Better to do than not do IMO.*

Also yes to PR, we need more coalitions, not less.

*awaits the fire.

Or they could have reined in the Tories far more effectively by engaging in a 'confidence and supply' arrangement. But Clegg chose not to; instead being seduced by Cameron and the promise of power. The LDs in being Cameron's airbag or condom have caught political AIDS, and like HIV, once you've got it, it's for life.

You've made your grubby bed, now lie in it.

I look forward with great glee to Nick Cleggs inevitable 'Portillo Moment' as he witnesses his party (thoroughly deservedly) being cast into electoral oblivion. Hopefully he'll lose his seat into the bargain too. The oily little charlatan!

No point discovering your social conscience now Nick. 4 and a half years ago, and it might have been a bit more handy.

Someone better do something or we will have a con/ ukip coalition after the next election, which quite frankly would be the end days for the UK

Christ!! Imagine... Dave fails to win an overall majority, so is forced to resign. Mental Tories elect Bozza as their leader, with Nige as deputy PM

*shudders*

Maybe the labour party should just put that out there as a nightmare scenario, that would scare the living **** out of pretty much everyone!

[i]that would scare the living **** out of pretty much everyone! [/i]

Uummm, compared to, what!
[img] [/img]

Someone better do something or we will have a con/ ukip coalition after the next election, which quite frankly would be the end days for the UK

I think you'll find that the "Yes" voters in Scotland are preying for this to happen.

It was very clever timing by the Conservatives. If the Lib Dems had voted against then, given how early in the coalition this happened, it would likely have spelled the end of the coalition and forced a snap general election.

The Lib Dems didn't want to risk the consequences of that and the instability it would have caused at such a delicate moment in the economic crisis.

Further, I think the Lib Dems have prevented the very worst of Tory policy being implemented and are being hung out to dry when something unpopular is announced and ignored when something positive happens.

In respect of tuition fees specifically they were / are not in a position to implement their own manifesto and voting or not for something when you are in government and not in opposition are two different things.

In a choice between inept and evil its not a massive dilemma for me

As for the lib Dems I feel sorry for them as clearly they have reigned in the excess of the tory party and watered them down from evil to just nasty.

However the tuition fee pledge and the stuff they have enable means, as binners put its

No point discovering your social conscience now Nick. 4 and a half years ago, and it might have been a bit more handy.

Solo - indeed. Would you like you're huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread. Has parliamentary democracy ever looked so threadbare?

But its the least worst option. A tory majority is a truly terrifying prospect. An absolute disaster for everyone other than the rich. With or without Farage in tow. I seriously believe it would involve the end of both the NHS and the welfare state, and with those, any pretence to being a civilised society. Its every man for himself. Unemployed? tough! Disabled? Unlucky! Got cancer? Not interested! You're on your own. We'll be over here counting our money, that we won't be paying any tax on.

In respect of tuition fees specifically they were / are not in a position to implement their own manifesto and voting or not for something when you are in government and not in opposition are two different things.

“I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative

they never promised to implement anything they promised to vote against something that they then implemented and voted for

No good way to spin that and your attempt is as good as it gets

"What about tuition fees?"

How have they got any credibility anymore as that was there main focus for the last election

Well as they didn't actually win the election I really don't understand why people still insist on bringing it up, other than to advertise the fact they they don't understand how the political system works. They can't be held responsible for not fulfilling an manifesto pledge because, and this is the important bit, they didn't win the election! If you looked at the Tory manifesto from the last election I'm sure you'll find stuff in there that they have had to renage on. That's how coalitions work; you are held to the coalition agreement not your manifesto.

If you looked at the Tory manifesto from the last election I'm sure you'll find stuff in there that they have had to renage on.

[i]"There will be no top-down reorganisation of the NHS.”[/i]

David Cameron

Footflaps and T1000 have it spot on. And the new tuition fees system means fewer people have to pay it back anyway.

Given that whoever had won tbe last election would have had to make drastic cuts and wreck tbe economy one way or the other, I'd be disappointed if the dim witted electorate took it on the junior partners in the coalition.

I suspect life under the Tories would have been even bee worse without them.

[i]I seriously believe it would involve the end of both the NHS and the welfare state, and with those, any pretence to being a civilised society. Its every man for himself. Unemployed? tough! Disabled? Unlucky! Got cancer? Not interested! You're on your own. We'll be over here counting our money, that we won't be paying any tax on.[/i]

Very amusing. What is this? Today we have the caring Binners?

Bit rich you critisizing self interest, after your comments about leaving the victims of IS to their fate and how the UK should just pull up the draw bridge.
Nice one.
😆

@gonefishing you may wish to read what the pledge was - above in my previous post - before criticising others grasps of the meaning of it.

@JY-I think that pledge was made assuming they weren't in coalition and were in opposition. They ARE the government atm.

Imagine the anger if they had destroyed the government and brought on a complete collapse of the economy of they had voted no. As I say it was a clever move from the Tories to do it so early in the term. If they tried it now I am pretty sure the outcome would be different.

You're mind really does work in some very odd ways Solo. believe it or not, some people have more nuanced views than your ludicrously simplistic black/white view of the world 🙄

Have you actually got anything to say on this subject? Or did you just chip in to have your usual yawn-inducingly predictable pop at me? It got boring quite some time ago

I think that pledge was made assuming they weren't in coalition and were in opposition. They ARE the government atm.

Which bit of this statement makes you think those caveats apply?

“I pledge to vote against any increase in fees in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative

[i]Have you actually got anything to say on this subject? Or did you just chip in to have your usual yawn-inducingly predictable pop at me? [/i]

I'm amused at your contradictory comments, I guess you'll wear whatever hat suits you at any given tme. I think you look especially good in the pointey hat with the 'D' on it.

However, perhaps you're being selective about whom we care for. If so, what is the basis for your judgement / selection. regarding whom you care for?....

Riiiight... so you haven't actually got anything to say on the subject. you've just chipped in here to have a go at me. All very growed up of you. I didn't actually realise the schools were off at the moment. Hey ho.

[i]so you haven't actually got anything to say[/i]

And you? ^^ apparently not.
😉

Never mind tuition fees; joining with the Tory attacks on the vulnerable is unforgivable.

There is an argument that far from "joining in " they actually " reined in " the Tories in this area ( and others )

Also yes to PR, we need more coalitions, not less.

+1

the Lib Dems seem a pretty duplicitous bunch by all accounts.

Their general modus-operandi appears to be:

- blame all difficult decisions on the evil tories
- take all the credit for anything that's good
- regularly refer to their coalition "partners" as liars (the interview with Vince Cable on radio4 yesterday on this point was quite interesting)
- set out a set of vague policies underpinned by "red lines" that they can't confirm, but which will almost certainly flex to the left or the right if it means they can keep a seat at the cabinet table after the next election.

[i]"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get covered in shit, and besides, the pig likes it."[/i]

George Bernard Shaw

Anyway.... back on topic.... the Lib Dems do appear to be wanting to have their cake and eat it. Anything nasty? that was those evil Tories. Nothing to do with us. Any good stuff? Thats us, that is! Aren't we great.

The pinnacle of this was the recent discovery of a social conscience about the bedroom tax. All of a sudden its punishing the poor etc, and should be abolished! Well it never would have made it into legislation in the first place if it weren't for your support! Its just pathetic to indulge in such an 11th hour conversion, when its so transparent its just shameless electioneering. I think we can expect a lot of that between now and May from them

pwned with bombers!

I'm not sure there's much difference from the other perspective

Their general modus-operandi appears to be:

- blame all difficult decisions on the evil [s]tories[/s]lib dems
- take all the credit for anything that's good
- regularly refer to their coalition "partners" as liars (the interview with Vince Cable on radio4 yesterday on this point was quite interesting)
- set out a set of vague policies underpinned by "red lines" that they can't confirm, but which will almost certainly flex to the left or the right if it means they can keep a seat at the cabinet table after the next election.

As for calling politicians liars ........

[i]"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get covered in shit, and besides, the pig likes it."

[/i]

Can you tell, in your case, I've made an exception. You know the choices I gave you, neither were very nice, That's you then.
😉

Anything nasty? that was those evil Tories. Nothing to do with us. Any good stuff? Thats us, that is! Aren't we great.

Tories - UKIP ish policies

LIb Dem - actual lib dem policies

I do agree much of this is to little to late but they are all do this sort of stuff. the lib dems just have the hardest job as

1. they seem really bad at it
2. most of what t hey have done is not what they would have wanted to have done - at least for the tories the direction was correct if not the distance travelled.

I would not vote for them personally as what you get is unknown. At least with the others you know what flavour they are if not everything they will do /support.

I think you'll find that the "Yes" voters in Scotland are preying for this to happen.

Not really. But we don't see why we should vote Labour - the two-faced Labour that told us with a straight face that the NHS was safe with Westminster, then turned around and said we had to vote Labour to save the NHS.

Yet again Scots are being asked to vote Labour to save the UK from the Tories/UKIP.

Not just you Ben. They're telling the north to use their default labour vote too, and not flirt with other parties, and everything will be ok.

With every passing election, it just becomes more and more hollow, and meaningless

John Harris compared being a traditional labour voter to a women who stays in an abusive relationship. You''re ignored, at best, or actively abused, but then every 5 years he tells you that he really really cares, that he loves you really, that you'll be better off staying with him, that he'll change....

When all we end is more neo-liberal, London-centric Tory-lite policies. The same policies, on behalf of the same vested interests, they just wring their hands as they do it, and don't look like they're enjoying it as much as the Tories clearly are.

It can equally said about LD voters now. Their entire election strategy will revolve around' Yes it's been grim, but without us it would've been far worse...'

It won't wash of course, and Clegg should've realised the fact when he got into bed with the Tories. So now, rather than be seen as heroes who did their best under the circumstances to work in a confidence and supply arrangement with the Tories for the good of the nation, but the Cons just couldn't be kept under control... they find themselves skillfully manipulated into being the fall guy to take the brunt of the public's anger come Polling Day.

Yes, well done Nick! Now eat it up; you deserve all of what you'll get.

It can equally said about LD voters now. Their entire election strategy will revolve around' Yes it's been grim, but without us it would've been far worse...'

Pretty true.

NB I'll be voting LD at the next election.

Ill be going for the Lib Dems...probably.

Lets look at the options:

Labour- almost excluded becuase the leader looks like the kid that got bullied at school but even after that he seems to have surrounded himself with incompetent career yes men.
Conservative- Bunch of corrupt ****s.
UKIP- The bigot from the golf club.
Greens- Unfortunatly still unelectable.

Leaving Lib dems as the only ones making realistic noises about sustainable energy and with good intent on most issues. The last few years may even have given them some realism.

glad to see people have a view on this

I just find it incredible that their core manifesto promise was completely abandoned, and its when it is brought up its "like its all in the past, move on"
the thing is my eldest "child" who is in her third year on university is now saddled with a debt for most of her working life, and more embarrassingly I voted for them on this pledge.
Thank god her debt will be less than English students
Poor old Gordon B, who advised him with " I agree with Nick" on those debates. Mr Brown is a bear of aman and should have used this during his campaign
I believe that in the discussions after the election the Tories offered Mr Clegg deputies job whilst Labour offered nothing, no wonder they joined the tories
So back to a two party system, or three here in Wales

So what are the odds on a Sir Nick after the election then

I think anyone still supporting the LDs after the last five years is suffering a severe case of http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

yes but tuition fees is massive

Clearly, you haven't been able to afford any.

I can't see which bits of tory excess they have curbed ?

NHS still being privatised, Grayling privatisation of the social care sector, economy still unresolved (all parties sticking fingers in ears on that one), bent over on tuition fees, nothing to show for voting reforms etc, press regulation didn't happen and murdoch still a malevolent force, teachers conditions still not improving, bedroom tax and vilification of the poor..

so where have they had meaningful input ???

Labour offered nothing

and still do 🙂

Their entire election strategy will revolve around' Yes it's been grim, but without us it would've been far worse...'

I could not vote for them though as what you get is a roll of the dice in terms of who they prop up and what they will deliver.

The one thing you do know is it will have **** all to do with their manifesto or principle.

I voted for the Liberals (I like to call them that because they sound like they are above you) when Paddy the SAS bloke was the leader of the party but not after that.

They now want to play the King/Queen maker ... 😯

so where have they had meaningful input ???

If we'd have had a full blown Tory majority we'd have had slavery re-introduced, the poor house brought back and exemption from all criminal offences for anyone earning over £1m....

*possibly....

devash - Member
...responsibility for saddling the future generation with crippling debt.

the debt is far from crippling, and thanks to the Lib dems and their U-turn, it costs each graduate £50/month LESS than before.

IMO, people, are overly harsh in their judgement of the LDs. We have v little recent experience of coalition governments and two parties have had to make a fist of a difficulty task made harder by the fact that they differ widely on many policy issues. But on the whole, they have done a pretty good job. Yes they have made mistakes but on balance a 6 or 7/10. And that includes dealing with Uncle Vince in their midst - as destructive as KP but without the talent.

There is plenty to be cynical about - and they now have to ask themselves if the grab for power was worth it. But there is a massive difference between being a minority opposition party and one who had to actually make the tough decisions especially dealing with the slow emergence from recession and excessive levels of debt. In power, they have executed reasonably well given he awkward bedfellows. Perhaps they and others will learn the difference between being in government and in opposition. The latter is much easier than the former.

Dreadful ties and logos though! And they spent money on image consultants

Given that these are politicians we are talking about I really don't get why so many are so vexed about the Lib Dem "u-turns". It is a coalition govt and that tends to mean neither side gets to do all that they want. It may well be that the Lib Dems when in more detailed discussions about the tuition fees decided that on balance their preferred approach was unworkable. Who knows. But to throw your toys out of the pram over that seems rather small minded and perhaps the Lib Dems would be better off without your vote. In the same way that blanket statements such as the Tories being corrupt makes me remember that this is, of course, STW where the trolling never stops. That and the rather irrational frothing of the left leaning members. 😆

blanket statements such as the Tories being corrupt

You mean just not exclusively, other parties have dabbled as well.......

Always worth a chuckle:
http://whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com

Trying to dig an article out on politics.co.uk too that goes into a lot of the stuff the LDs have done to soften policies the Tories were pushing through.

I voted for the Liberals (I like to call them that because they sound like they are above you) when Paddy the SAS bloke was the leader of the party but not after that.

<pedant> Ashdown was SBS. </pedant>

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member

I voted for the Liberals (I like to call them that because they sound like they are above you) when Paddy the SAS bloke was the leader of the party but not after that.

<pedant> Ashdown was SBS. </pedant>

😳

I really don't get why so many are so vexed about the Lib Dem "u-turns

FWIW i agree they get more grieve but I also think they sold out way more than any other

where the trolling never stops. That and the rather irrational frothing of the left leaning members

IMHO that is so much more STW; moan about something then immediately do it

I thought 4.5 years ago that they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't think it has worked out nearly as good as they hoped. Completely bodged up electoral reform, which I suspect was what they held out on at the expense of other things such as tuition fees. Now there is a situation where the Tories claim credit for any possible good news and the libs are facing big losses. Still, hindsight is a wonderful thing, I suppose they can argue Clegg bent over and took one for the good of the country.

I guess we'll never know but even if they reigned in a small amount of May's authoritarian leanings or Gove's return to the 50's education policies then maybe it's worth it.

(a wavering lib dem supporter)

Gove's return to the 50's education policies

Don't make him sound like a modernist, his ideas are positively Victorian!

You are an example to us all of in how to avoid trolling

IMHO that is so much more STW; moan about something then immediately do it

I think you may have missed my smiley. I tried to use a bigger one so that it was obvious that the last part was tongue in cheek. Obviously not a big enough one. Lets try this 🙂 🙂

Labour Jack Straw Tony Blair up to their elbows in torture and military adventurism. Brown fiscal stupidity.
Conservatives privatisation of NHS assault on the liberty of the citizen, treating taxes as a cash cow for international non taxpaying corporations, total breakdown of the criminal justice system, mad authoritarian May and frankly dishonest Grayling.
UKIP racist and incompetent .
Green idealistic principled unelectable.

So still voting Lib Dem, they may well have moderated the Tories worst excesses and in an age when people are being financially penalised for having one two many rooms in the only house available for them and Dangerous offenders are being monitored by private companies cutting supervision to a minimum ,I can't get that worked up by students paying for their higher education .

I do think they blew it by not actually pulling out of the coalition and triggering an election earlier but that is the danger with modern career politicians they view it as a job not a public duty and so go for job security not points of principal .

I can't get that worked up by students paying for their higher education .

Same here. If you need a degree for your career then odds are you'll have higher lifetime earnings and be able to pay (some of it) back, if you don't need a degree for your career WTF are you going to University. The right to spend 3-4 years smoking dope and listening to The Doors for free is not one I'll be defending. Plus I hated The Doors.

Difficult to know what's trolling and what's not, on balance "the Tories are as honest as the day is long" is probably more inflammatory to more people than "the Tories are a bunch of corrupt ****s".

Either statement could perhaps be delivered with more subtility but that would require a university degree education beyond my means.
(And one statement correct).

Who do you reckon came up with the tag line "Winning here" on the LD posters? At least they have kept their sense of humour in all this.

footflaps - Member

All parties have made a U turn on something at some point......

In the case of election pledges that is simply not true.

I'm not completely certain about the Tories but I don't know of one single case in which Labour have made a firm election pledge, as the LibDems did on tuition fees, where they went on to preform a complete U-turn on the pledge, as the LibDems have.

Perhaps you can think of a few footflaps ? And btw we are talking about "pledges" ........ solemn and binding promises.

Of course not all pledges have been delivered on 100%, some despite best intentions haven't quite hit their target 100% but I cannot think of one single case where, the Labour Party at least, has made a firm election pledge and then [i]deliberately[/i] did the [i]complete[/i] opposite to what they pledged to do, as the LibDems have.

The LibDems as the result of their deliberate actions have further significantly discredited British politics.

And this btw is the party which produced this video before the last election.

footflaps - Member

Personally I think we send too many people to university to do pointless degrees which just wastes money, so it's not something I'd hold against them....

Whether the pledge was a good idea or not is completely irrelevant. It was made and some people will have voted on the basis of that pledge, that after all was the whole intention behind the high level publicity that the LibDems chose to attach to it.

All debate concerning whether the policy was a good one or not ceased at this point :

[img] [/img]

To happily accept the huge abuse of trust committed by the LibDems simply helps increase the disreputable character of British politics. It is only by people demanding higher integrity from politicians that we can expect less disreputable behaviour. Otherwise we only have ourselves blame.

If you want British politics to improve rather than deteriorate then don't reward dishonesty.

I'm not completely certain about the Tories but I don't know of one single case in which Labour have made a firm election pledge, as the LibDems did on tuition fees, where they went on to preform a complete U-turn on the pledge, as the LibDems have

10p tax rate?. Granted, it took a few years, but 'good old Gordon' brought it in, then whipped it away.

The 10p tax rate was not an election pledge.

Here are all the election pledges made by Labour 1997-2005 :

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+labours+election+pledge+cards/507807.html

Some provide a clear commitment to achieve specific targets while others are vague. I can't see a single example where Labour has deliberately done the complete opposite to what they pledged to do. As the LibDems have.

and yet, by breaking their promise, they reduced the amount graduates have to pay by £600/year.

the stinkers!

If you want British politics to improve rather than deteriorate then don't reward dishonesty.

Are you suggesting we don't vote?

To happily accept the huge abuse of trust committed by the LibDems simply helps increase the disreputable character of British politics.

Or you could just be pragmatic and vote for whichever party best fits your aims (as none will ever match them 100%) and accept that not everything goes to plan.

Although you are welcome to take this betrayal with you to the grave as that is your prerogative 😉

[img] [/img]

Does Cleggis GAF anymore? He gives all the impression of a guy who has come to terms with his position and is now in a slightly euphoric state. The LDs are going to get wiped in the next election. There is a vague idea that they could just hold the balance of power but even that looks tenuous. All this is known now.

So he has made it to a place that most LDs can only dream about, he has enjoyed (?) the trappings of power and from 2015, pastures new. He is in the acceptance phase and seemingly more relaxed as a result.

He'll do a Mandleson, and swan off back to Europe as the Commissioner for something-or-other. Brussels is his spiritual home anyway.

Of course he is unworried; he's got a seat in the Lords to look forward to.

Sure, next thing will be he won't even bother dressing up anymore. Oh, wait a sec......Cleggy in his jeans!!!!

I really don't understand why people still insist on bringing it up