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Previously when we have negotiated our rates with World Pay we have agreed over the phone and then they send an email to which i respond that I agree.
We have been approached by Clear Business who will provide us with World Pay at rates a lot lower than they quoted.
There was to and fro with World Pay offering us rates to which i verbally agreed to that were then bettered by by Clear Business.
No email arrived asking us to agree to WP terms so we proceeded with CB.
Now WP are saying the verbal agreement is valid.
Who is right?
They will have it recorded.
What timescales did all this happen? will there be a cooling off period as done over the phone, which would allow you back out of 1st agreement and go with 2nd?
They will have it recorded.
Only if it was clear at the beginning of the call that it would be recorded.
I wasn't informed it was legally binding and surely the fact that weve always confirmed by email sets a precedent?
Were you told at the start of the call that is was recorded? Has that always happened?
If you weren't informed the call was recorded then I don't believe it is legal (although I'm no lawyer).
How di they communicate to you that they felt the phone call was binding - was it by email?
Only if it was clear at the beginning of the call that it would be recorded.
I can’t recall the last time I rang a call line and it there was no message to say it was recorded.
Seems highly irregular, but verbal contracts are still binding?
Yes, a verbal agreement is legally binding. There are exceptions where some MUST be in writing but in general verbal is good enough.
The difficulty is for the claiming side to prove that the agreement was made, if the disputing party says it wasn't. If it went to court they'd look at evidence including notes made at the time, and of course recordings. I'm not aware that a court would consider a recording inadmissable when it is essentially proof rather than some sort of covert trap. I'm not aware that you have to be told that a conversation is recorded, and in fact a google shows:
https://dma-law.co.uk/is-it-illegal-to-record-conversations/
Under the Telecommunications Regulations 2000, companies can only record calls without telling you if the recording is used for monitoring or keeping a record of communications for:
-
establishing the existence of facts
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ascertain compliance with regulatory or self-regulatory practices or procedures
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to demonstrate the standards which are achieved or ought to be achieved by persons using the system in the course of their duties
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in the interests of national security, or for preventing or detecting crime
and I'd suggest recording to establish that you did in fact agree to the deal (in your own post: "There was to and fro with World Pay offering us rates to which i verbally agreed to") falls into this.
The fact that verbal agreements are often followed up by written ones is good practice, but not an obligation, and in your case would only be confirming what you agreed to; not the point that agreement was made.
So to me your only chance would be to brazen it out, say that you didn't agree to it and hope they didn't record it? And brazen it even further by saying whenever we've made an agreement you then sent it to me by email to confirm so the absence of any email just proves the conversation / agreement didn't happen..... (in case of doubt, I don't think brazening it out is ethical or sound)
I can’t recall the last time I rang a call line and it there was no message to say it was recorded.
Interesting point here:
1/ I'm not reading that this was a call to a call centre, I'm reading it as a phone call with a 'sales rep' from the firm in which an agreement was made.
2/ If they do tell you in advance then often the phrasing seems to be 'the call is recorded for training purposes*' .... NWS my post just above that a recording can be evidential for establishing facts whether announced as recorded or not - if they tell you it's recorded 'for training purposes' does that insinuate they can't then use it for other
(* other times 'training and monitoring' which would cover it)
Luckily Mrs Zip has read all their bumf and at the bottom is "says you have a short time to terminate the contract
we will write to you to let you know how long that is".
No communication has been forthcoming, so they can whistle.
Every time we sign with them its for 18 months. Halfway through we get an email saying they are putting up the prices. We can leave at that point. Obviously the contract is only valid when it suits them.
During the to and fro I agreed a price.
The other people came at me with a better price that WP then matched.
They didn't say tough shit you agreed , they lowered.
Even better I've just had an email saying they've cancelled my contract.
Verbal contracts *can* be legally binding. One condition quickly found from a quick web search appears to be that *telephone* sales (as opposed to a face to face discussion) need to be confirmed in writing.
I am not a lawyer but I know how to do web searches.
"Under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, certain consumer contracts (e.g., online or telephone sales) must include key terms in writing or in a durable medium."
This advice is worth no more than you paid me for it.
Interesting point from other consumer trading questions, there are different (typically, lower) protections for businesses that conclude contracts with each other (came I think in the lost drone / distance selling discussion) than there are for private individuals
From the 2013 regs you cite
“Consumer” and “trader”
4. In these Regulations—
“consumer” means an individual acting for purposes which are wholly or mainly outside that individual's trade, business, craft or profession;
and I think pretty much by definition WorldPay etc are a B2B activity.
IANAL either , but other contract law would apply but not consumer contracts IMO
HMRC consider B2B verbal contracts as valid. We've had them used against us and for us.
(Obviously there will usually be other evidence to go with it in terms of who did what, usual practice etc)
For future reference:
Short answer, promises made verbally are generally considered legally binding. As a consumer this would be an easy answer - under CRA you have 14 days from agreement to cancel the service.
For B2B it gets messier. If the agreement meets the requirements for a legal contract - there has to be an offer and acceptance, both parties have to intend for it to be a legal contract, and the details of the contract are clear - then a verbal contract is as binding as a written one.
Where it may fall down is proof - ie, they didn't record the call or take notes, which seems unlikely - or the agreement was sufficiently vague / lacking in detail as to be unenforceable.
But if they've already offered to or actually cancelled, it's academic now. Good result.
but verbal contracts are still binding?
There was a case recently where a 'Thumbs Up' emoji was held up in court to be legally binding. A farmer Canada responded to grain contract - from a mass mailing - with a thumbs - intending that to mean 'I've received your message, thanks' - the sender took that to be an acceptance of the contract. Come harvest time the grain buyer was of the opinion they were due a harvest from him at an agreed price - the court sided with him and the thumbs up ended of costing $80k.
There are apparently now hundreds of court cases each year which hinge on peoples differing interpretations of an emoji 💀💀💀💀💀💀
I think.. In the UK at least... As a consumer buying a good or a service contract from a company.. It wouldn't stand up.. You have to be given the opportunity to fully read and agree to the terms.
Simply saying 'sounds good' on the phone I don't think would be deemed fair, or even an appropriate way for a consumer to agree to enter into a contract with a company if it went to court.
Have you read thread before that comment?
You have to be given the opportunity to fully read and agree to the terms.
Incredibly, not. That's one of the issues, in event of a dispute what were the terms / were they clear, can you prove it, etc., but absence of an equivalent written version is not absence of a contract.
And secondly, this isn't consumer buying goods or services, it's B2B
Have you read thread before that comment?
You have to be given the opportunity to fully read and agree to the terms.
Incredibly, not. That's one of the issues, in event of a dispute what were the terms / were they clear, can you prove it, etc., but absence of an equivalent written version is not absence of a contract.
And secondly, this isn't consumer buying goods or services, it's B2B
Maybe so, but my response would be 'see you in court dickhead'.
And that would have been the end of that.
and if they turned up with the recording of the call demonstrating your agreement?
and if they turned up with the recording of the call demonstrating your agreement?
Then I'd argue that they are misrepresenting the argument.. A flippant 'yeah' on a phone call does not equal a contract.
That's why when you phone up for car insurance they force you to listen to the t's & c's in order to proceed.
Then I'd argue that they are misrepresenting the argument.. A flippant 'yeah' on a phone call does not equal a contract.
Like I and various others have said, a yes - even a flippant 'yeah' - if that's an answer to an offer actually does equal a contract in law.
For a contract (whether verbal or written) to be legally binding, there are 4 elements that need to be present:
1. There needs to be an offer;
2. An acceptance of that offer;
3. Consideration;
4. An intention to create legal relations
That's why when you phone up for car insurance they force you to listen to the t's & c's in order to proceed.
No, the reason they do that is not necessarily* because they have to, it's so for the avoidance of any doubt if you break the contract they can pull out the recording and show where they told you the terms and you agreed to them. Good practice is not the same as minimum needed to be legal.
(*also to be completely correct, I think you *might* have to do it for car insurance because it's a financial product which has specific extra rules)
And also there is an important and material difference between consumer vs B2B.
There's also additional requirement for consumer telephone sales which is I *think* different to verbal agreements made over the telephone - AIUI telephone sales means 'cold call' types rather than eg: where you've had someone come round and price up a job for you and then you speak to them some time later on the phone and agree to go ahead.
IANAL, but I was in sales previously and did enough training to know that a verbal agreement made with someone over price was binding but should be followed up with a formal quote asap thereafter to avoid any complication.
IANAL, but I was in sales previously and did enough training to know that a verbal agreement made with someone over price was binding but should be followed up with a formal quote asap thereafter to avoid any complication.
Well, exactly... a court case would fall flat on its face if your only evidence of a contract is a muffled 'yeah sounds good' on a phone recording.
I'm not convinced, if something like that did go to court then it's not criminal style 'beyond doubt', the judge would rule on likelihood. If the party's arguments are he said/she said only, then who is more credible, can produce any evidence, etc., and contemporaneous notes, muffled recordings, etc., are all more than nothing. Which is why in most cases recording, notes, follow up emails etc. are made, but they are not essential for the contract to be in legal terms deemed to have been agreed and therefore binding.
I don't think we're really disagreeing - it is legally binding, the question is whether it's enforceable or whether someone that did agree to a contract verbally can get out of it afterwards essentially by saying 'prove it', and then whether the complainant can, or just shrugs and walks away on the basis of too much hassle.