[Closed] Legal eagles and Good Police of STW assemble; What should happen next?

he'd be up in front of the beak for GBH, shirley?
If he had any smarts, by the time he got there he would be booked into an AA class, and some other wiffly anger management bolleux to work his mitigation hard and get a suspended/community service sentence.

Unprovoked assault on the emergency services?

I thought they were highlighting this at the moment. Would assume a criminal record (IANALOP)

The paramedic is concussed; admitted to hospital and CT scanned. Nothing hugely serious is found, but he is probably going to need nasal septum surgery.

Consumption of Alcohol and thus the argument "[i]Im very sorry, I had too much to drink and was not aware/in control of my actions"[/i] should not be accepted as a mitigating factor for his conduct in front of the judge/cps, unfortunately it doesn't work like that - our society should not accept such a defense.

Nowt serious just in need of surgery?

influence of alcohol...

Unprovoked attack on member of emergency services resulting in hosp treatment for concussion, broken nose/septum? I'll go for a court appearance and criminal conviction. Possibly a jail sentence.

The CPS guidelines quote previous cases of assaults on public servants.

R v McNally 2000 1 Cr. App. R (S) 533 - the appellant was attending a hospital with his son when he became involved in an argument with a doctor and assaulted him with one punch. He had no previous convictions and was charged with ABH. The Court of Appeal held that 6 months' imprisonment was the appropriate sentence, and reiterated that such circumstances seriously aggravated the offence.

R v Eastwood [2002] 2 Cr. App. R. (S) 72 (at 318) - the appellant was drunk and in A&E when he assaulted a nurse during the course of an X-ray. The nurse suffered torn ligaments in her hand, and he was charged with ABH. The Court found that in such circumstances, the starting point after trial was between 21 - 24 months' imprisonment with a sentence of 15 months' imprisonment suitable after guilty plea.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/#a12

I'm not a lawyer though and every case is different.

When I say nowt serious, I mean not life threatening or in need of ongoing hospital in patient care, I suppose.

Okay. So can anybody tell me about such things as 'conditional cautions'. I've never heard of them before. But I'm fairly sure they don't class as a conviction of any kind.

I am not a policeman or lawyer, and that's why I would be waiting in the shadows with a baseball bat and a sense of self-righteous indignation.

Also your mate should probably be hypothetically on his way to see a real lawyer. Were they charged by the police?

Still awaiting a charging decision, with a strong indication that a 'conditional caution' will be the outcome. Apparently he's 'really sorry'.

Edit; hypothetically of course.

I'd say grab with both hands if offered. Appears it still shows on a criminal record check even though not a conviction but it is better than the alternative of being taken to court.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/#a12

But as suggested above speak to a real lawyer if this hasn't been done already. Too big a decision for anyone without a record to take without proper legal advice.

Irc; who should grab it with both hands? My hypothetical mate is the injured party, for clarification. I have zero interest in going easy on the assailant.

The assaulted paramedic has little say in what the police/CPS decide.

Your post made it sound like it was coming from the side of the guy swinging the fists . You have no input and probably wait and see?

I would be very surprised if a conditional caution was offered. If it was my job I would be throwing everything at getting the offender a custodial sentence. If he is really sorry and has something to use as mitigation; then he can tell his little sob-story to the court.
There is very little tolerance in the police for attacks on medics.
IANCPS.

PC Wheeler

Your post made it sound like it was coming from the side of the guy swinging the fists . You have no input and probably wait and see?

(Hypothetically)

I'm surprised it's a police decision, not CPS?

Either way, an unprovoked attack, leaving a paramedic requiring facial surgery... Unless the offender is a child, he needs to be charged.

Ah - finally a thread where I can help! (Police Custody Sergeant, so I make these sort of disposal decisions every day). Please note that the procedures I describe may not be national practice - your local Force may have different names and procedures may vary (although it'll be broadly similar).

CPS charging standards / level of injury table is over my right shoulder as I type - 'displaced broken nose' counts as Section 47 Offences Against the Person Act 1861 - ABH to you and I. Assaults are often downgraded - make sure you shout from the rooftops about the nature of injury, backed up with a medical statement - they should have obtained consent for access to medical records.

When determining disposal we have a crib sheet for every type of offence going (called the Police Visual Handbook). The first thing to do is to note that ABH is a CPS charging decision, which means that if the Police wish to charge the suspect to Magistrates Court, they have to obtain prior authorisation from the CPS. If the Police so wish, they can Caution (inc conditional) or NFA (no further action) in certain situations.

There is a whole ton of boring procedure (with which I won't bore the general audience) when determining disposal options - the short version is that I'd be staggered if this case was offered a Caution / conditional Caution. A previous respondent alluded to the particular conditions for assaults against emergency services workers, which I will shamelessly copy-and-paste;

Whilst separate offences exist in respect of assaults on prison officers and immigration officers, there are no specific offences for other emergency workers and public servants, including those working in the NHS and those working for transport undertakings.

However, the Code for Crown Prosecutors states that such assaults should tend towards prosecution and the Sentencing Council's Definitive Guidelines on Assault state that the fact that the victim comes from one of those groups should be treated as an aggravating factor.

Generally courts have given assailants in such cases custodial sentences:

6 months' imprisonment for someone who had no previous convictions, who punched a doctor in a hospital,
15 months' imprisonment for someone who pleaded guilty (21 to 24 months' otherwise), who assaulted a nurse in A&E,
15 months' imprisonment for someone who punched a member of an ambulance crew at an RTC.

If this case is as you describe (and the case is evidentially sound, with evidence in statement / CCTV form) then it should go to the CPS with the expectation of a Court Case. Find out who the Officer in Case is (call the Force and quote the crime number) and speak with them to find out what is going on - the sooner the better, as it is very hard to reverse a Caution decision after it has been issued. Make it VERY clear that you will not be satisfied with a Caution / Conditional Caution; if this is likely to be the disposal decision, tell them that you will challenge the decision and have it reviewed under the Victim's Right to Review [url= http://www.northyorkshire.police.uk/15262 ]http://www.northyorkshire.police.uk/15262[/url] - not my Force, but the best result that Google produced.

OP - feel free to email me (address in profile) if you need any more specific help that might not be appropriate for a public forum...

PS - your earlier question about a conditional caution is simple enough to explain; offender receives a Caution on the condition that he does something - apologises, writes a grovelling letter etc. Personally I'd not be happy with that as a disposal were I in your chum's position.

What's wrong with people? Whatever the outcome I just hope one of the bystanders got a good ****ing dig in whilst they dealt with him.

What's wrong with people? Whatever the outcome I just hope one of the bystanders got a good **** dig in whilst they dealt with him.

Alcohol. That's what's wrong with people like this.

If we criminalised alcohol and decriminalised cannabis, we'd have far fewer folk punched in the face and far fewer people locked up. An increase in psychosis cases for the NHS, mind, and a welcome boost to sales of pickled onion monster munch...

Too much to drink and previously being of good character should be absolutely no defence with something like this. B*****ds.

In an incident with one of our crews a patient who was threatening and abusive to them received a 12 week custodial sentence so I'd expect that as a minimum.
Whichever NHS Trust he works for should have someone who deals with this kind of incident who can push for prosecution.

Section 20 assault downgraded on guilty plea to a section 47? Hope the paramedic is OK 🙁

The paramedic could also bring a private prosecution (unlikely in real life unless eg the union wanted to fund it) or bring a civil claim for battery (possibly a bit more realistic).

No, alcohol shouldn't get the blame. The prick who thought it was ok to assault a paramedic should get the blame.
How many thousands of people drink but don't turn into arseholes? Doesn't matter what their previous is, they committed the assault and should be punished. You don't let people off murder charges because it was out of character, or they might have had a pint or two.
Whoever it was and whatever their relationship to you, op, they are a tosser.

I know a young lad who attacked the ambulance crew that were called out to help him after a fall following some unusual behaviour..
Police also attended and were attacked too..

He received a righteous pasting in the back of the jam sandwich on the way to the custody suite, and then did 8 months in a psychiatric unit

Should be getting the jail for that. I would seriously doubt it's the first time he's been a drunken, agressive prick. Dressing it up as jolly student japes and previously of good character don't mean a lot to me. A guy's been badly injured doing his job.

This is no doubt going to be controversial, but I can't see that you, or your friend gain anything other than satisfaction by the assailant ending up in prison? While a criminal record could have a seriously negative affect on the rest of his life. If he's taken out of university, where he is hopefully learning to be a productive member of society and put into prison where the opposite is likely to be the case I can hardly see it helping much.

I totally agree that it was an incredibly scummy thing to do, but we don't know his character. Undoubtedly he deserves a massive scare, but maybe the police/CPS have decided that he's already had one and is genuinely remorseful and intending to get his life on track? Some people do some incredibly out of character things under the influence of alcohol, and young people are pretty stupid at times. Or maybe he is a total twunt with no hope of redemption, hard to tell without knowing him personally.

Tomd +1

What should happen next?

Transportation to Australia.

Should be getting the jail for that. I would seriously doubt it's the first time he's been a drunken, agressive prick. Dressing it up as jolly student japes and previously of good character don't mean a lot to me. A guy's been badly injured doing his job.

+1

Our emergency services deserve the full backing of the police and courts in situations like this. The level of assaults on paramedics and A&E staff is ridiculously high.

[i]Undoubtedly he deserves a massive scare, but maybe the police/CPS have decided that he's already had one and is genuinely remorseful and intending to get his life on track? [/i]

No, that's not enough.

I'm usually a whiney liberal on such things but there's too many 'one punch' fatalities and serious injuries for someone to be able to say;

"Look, he's not dead and I'm, like, really sorry"

And get away with it.

What's happened is that the assailant has realised the implications of their actions for [i]their own[/i] life, not the impact on someone else's.

Yes they'll be on their knees pleading but as soon as it's disposed with it 'll be "Phew! Got away with that one. Let's go down the pub and celebrate!".

He received a righteous pasting in the back of the jam sandwich on the way to the custody suite

several of the hypothetical witnesses are at pains to point out that the gentleman was not slurring and well coordinated throughout.

While a criminal record could have a seriously negative affect on the rest of his life. If he's taken out of university, where he is hopefully learning to be a productive member of society and put into prison where the opposite is likely to be the case I can hardly see it helping much.

That's a much bigger question, possibly worthy of its own thread ("What's the point of prison?"). As it stands, going to university doesn't make you more moral in my view. Should we judicially reward people who are intellectually/financially able to go to uni rather than folk who go straight into regular jobs? If they're helping out with the Samaritans while they're at uni', then that's a different story. Doesn't sound like it though!

Zero tolerance.

There is absolutely no excuse for that behaviour.

[i]That's a much bigger question, possibly worthy of its own thread ("What's the point of prison?"). As it stands, going to university doesn't make you more moral in my view. Should we judicially reward people who are intellectually/financially able to go to uni rather than folk who go straight into regular jobs? If they're helping out with the Samaritans while they're at uni', then that's a different story. Doesn't sound like it though! [/i]

+1

Especially since 50% of school leavers are going to Uni, so it doesn't really mean anything anymore.

I'm not sure it needs a custodial sentence, but at least a trip to the magistrates court and a properly marked 'card' - minimum should be a week picking up litter wearing a dayglo jacket.

If he was a friend of mine I wouldn't have anything to do with him after doing that.

A total dickhead and should have the book thrown at him, at least a very hefty fine and proper compensation to the paramedic.

As it stands, going to university doesn't make you more moral in my view. Should we judicially reward people who are intellectually/financially able to go to uni rather than folk who go straight into regular jobs?

No, absolutely not. The point I was more trying to make is that whatever they're doing at 18/19/20, whether it's university, technical college, apprenticeship or first job, many people at that age are still confused, insecure and easily influenced and trying to make their way in the world. A lot will make mistakes. Some are also no doubt already beyond help. I don't think any of us can possibly know what the situation of this guy might be.

He received a righteous pasting in the back of the jam sandwich on the way to the custody suite, and then did 8 months in a psychiatric unit

[quote=mikewsmith ]Unprovoked assault on the emergency services?
I thought they were highlighting this at the moment. Would assume a criminal record (IANALOP)
The paramedic is concussed; admitted to hospital and CT scanned. Nothing hugely serious is found, but he is probably going to need nasal septum surgery.
Nowt serious just in need of surgery?

Jail the *

The * who attacked me at a job got 13 months in jail.

I am a criminal lawyer this is my day to day world . I cannot see this ending in a caution . Assaults on medics doing their jobs are viewed seriously , this is a bad ABH drink is an aggravating factor as is the unprovoked attack . I would say chummy is going to the magistrates but only briefly as he is likely to sent to the big boys court (crown ) then my best bet is a custodial sentence with the true argument being whether good character remorse and impact to future career allows that sentence to be suspended on condition no further offending and complete a community order.
The assault sentence guidelines are easily googleable.

On whether prison works this is the sort of case where it is easy to argue that the deterent effect of sloting first time offenders justifies custody to send a message to the wider comunity, to an extent that out weighs the detrimental impact of custody on the individual.

Is the Paramedics union representative hounding ambulance service legal services for full implementation of the zero tolerance policy on verbal and physical assaults against NHS staff?

Oh, and if we're talking legalities, it's [i]essential service[/i], not [i]emergency service[/i].

Well I hope we find out if prison works in this instance.

I hope that the scrote is charged and has his day in court. If not, he'll just assume that he's got away with it and won't change his behaviour.

I'm sure of I punched Mrs Z in the face while pissed I'd be up before the beak in double quick time. Mind you, the legal side of things would be the least of my worries. She is one to bear a grudge........

This is no different in my view.

On whether prison works this is the sort of case where it is easy to argue that the deterent effect of sloting first time offenders justifies custody to send a message to the wider comunity, to an extent that out weighs the detrimental impact of custody on the individual.

This +1

If he gets away with it then that's a green light to every other drunk person, among who'm there will always be one idiot, who will throw a punch.

I suppose it depends how mentally prepared for it you are and I'm no psychiatrist but I'd imagine an unprovoked punch to the face whilst doing your job is going to sit in the back of your mind for quite a long time and affect you.

And there was me thinking that the STW hive disliked prison as a punishment, and thought it should be for rehabilitation only.
How wrong was I?!?

If you punch a paramedic in the face without provocation, are you not in need of rehabilitation?

fin25 - Member

If you punch a paramedic in the face without provocation, are you not in need of rehabilitation?

rehab comes in many forms, a kicking Is one such.

The guideline suggests a starting point of 26 weeks in custody and range of community order to 51 weeks the aggravating features night, drink , medic etc would push up the range the mitigation good character remorse down the range then > 1/3 of for a guilty plea . I assume a broken/ displaced nose requiring surgery is greater harm and there are no factors indicating high culpability as defined in the guidelines.

IANAL but the fact he squared up to the female medic and the victim before assaulting him is to me premeditated or intent. And assault with intent is considered far more serious?.

Is busting someones nose really ABH? I would have guessed that was GBH?

There is a time and place for financial compensation, and this it it. The victims closure of this should be sealed with money.

On whether prison works this is the sort of case where it is easy to argue that the deterent effect of sloting first time offenders justifies custody to send a message to the wider comunity, to an extent that out weighs the detrimental impact of custody on the individual.

Agreed, easy to argue, but not sure it is correct. Is a coked and boozed-up angry 21 year old, who is prone to violence, really going to recollect at 2am what, at best, they may have glanced in a newspaper days before?

Anyhow, a bit off-thread. Apologies OP.

Prison does work.

It may not always or often rehabilitate, it might not even punish in some circumstances where life inside turns out to be better than outside for some, but it 100% protects the general public and ambulance crews from this **** for the 18 months or more that he's locked up, and that's good enough for me.

Decent sentencing might not deter the exact same incident, but it also sends out the message to the paramedic crews and A&E teams that receiving violence should not be an expected part of the role.

And it might have a slight deterrant effect on the people who spit, scratch and punch emergency workers even when they aren't completely pissed up.

I've been drunk on many occasions and never felt the need to punch any of the emergency services in the face. I therefore conclude that alcohol is not sufficient excuse.

I totally agree that it was an incredibly scummy thing to do, but we don't know his character.

But that is exactly what you do know . . . his character is one that can become an unpredictable, abusive and violent person. There is no other way looking at it. In the circumstances described, that was his character and behaviour at that time. Whilst alcohol may be a causal factor, its certainly not an excuse.

University degree or something else, doesn't matter. In fact, its right that that sort of behaviour should receive and later be shown on a criminal record and available for disclosure on job applications. Quite rightly, who would want an employee that could behave in that manner ???

I do hope that he gets some form of criminal justice result that is more that just a caution and that whilst being punitive does offer some restorative learning to the person so he doesn't do it again

Decent sentencing might not deter the exact same incident, but it also sends out the message to the paramedic crews and A&E teams that receiving violence should not be an expected part of the role.

And it might have a slight deterrant effect on the people who spit, scratch and punch emergency workers even when they aren't completely pissed up..

+100 . . . but it won't. people will still get pissed and punch emergency services.

I've been drunk on many occasions and never felt the need to punch any of the emergency services in the face. I therefore conclude that alcohol is not sufficient excuse.

There was a time in my life when my mental health was not what you would describe as stable. I was drunk all the time (not helped by working in a pub) and would regularly start fights, always with men bigger than me and I always got knocked out. Friends have described my behaviour at the time as a bit sad, and many pointed out that I wanted to get kicked in, rather than doing the kicking.
I now work with vulnerable young people, many of whom have quite acute mental illness and emotional instability. Many of these young people get into fights, but I have never witnessed any of them attack someone in such a way without provocation.
If this guy has started a fight with two paramedics, then broke one of their noses without provocation, he needs to be held accountable for his action and take some responsibility. Whatever his mental or emotional state was at the time bears little influence in my opinion, as his actions show a clear intent to hurt others and should be investigated and judged in court.

And there was me thinking that the STW hive disliked prison as a punishment, and thought it should be for rehabilitation only.

Now I do believe in needing much, much better rehabilitation and training rather than lock 'em up approach.

However we have what we have, and this type of incident requires us to apply the law and punishment as it stands.

Irc; who should grab it with both hands?

I was suggesting that if the assailant got offered a caution he should take it as it would be a massive let off. Personally I'd say either a prison sentence or at best conviction and some other disposal would be appropriate.

Prison does work. I was talking to a "client" at my work the other day. Done for murder as a teenager. Served 14 yrs. Was out for 3 years but now recalled to prison under the terms of his life licence after being charged with a serious assault. I'd guess a fair few members of the public have been saved from harm by him while he was inside. Expensive, but if 14 yrs jail doesn't rehabilitate someone at least the public are protected while that person is inside.

Should be getting the jail for that. I would seriously doubt it's the first time he's been a drunken, aggressive prick. Dressing it up as jolly student japes and previously of good character don't mean a lot to me. A guy's been badly injured doing his job.

This +1

Hooray for tough guys! Beating mentally ill people up makes things better! You can always rely on police officers' judgement on who deserves a kicking!

To be honest, the young fella in question is a fine upstanding member of the community now, and would still maintain to this day that he was treated very fairly in all of his dealings with the police

It still amazes me that people do this sort of thing. I have a healthy respect and admiration for our Emergency/Essential Service personnel. I cannot fathom any scenario where I would say a cross word, let alone assault one of their members in the line of duty. We are very quick to rely on them when our luck runs out.

Sorry, but this guy needs a wake up call, a short prison sentence would probably be a good way of administering that.

Oh, and if we're talking legalities, it's essential service, not emergency service.

I stand corrected. Though in Scotland it is emergency services. See Emergency Workers (Scotland) Act 2005 for assaults on police, fire, medical, ambulance etc staff.

What should happen next?

jekkyl - Member

What should happen next?

a good kicking in the back of the police van? [/1970'spolicing]

TBH,there is a pecking order in prison based on what you have done,so he may end up getting that.

Agree a short prison sentence is required.

Undoubtedly he deserves a massive scare

Yeah - Send him down and call it a gap year.

I've seen loads of these to-ing and fro-ing matey "I'm OK" tossers who's moods flip just like that. They're the worst - dangerous and unpredictable and I wouldn't want them anywhere near me.

what about compulsory six months sentence for any university student committing a criminal offence?
these establishments do seem to be breeding grounds for tossers

But that is exactly what you do know . . . his character is one that can become an unpredictable, abusive and violent person. There is no other way looking at it.

Absolutely what I was about to say.

A fine upstanding member of society does not have a couple of sherberts and then square up to a female paramedic who's trying to help his mate before launching a violent unprovoked attack on her colleague.

Alcohol lowers inhibitions; if he's the sort of person who does this sort of thing when drunk, he's the sort of person who really wants to do this but retains the composure not to when sober. To wit, he's a nasty, aggressive piece of work. And even if hypothetically that's not the case and it's a total reversal of character when drunk, a fine upstanding member of society would give up drinking.

^This.

Thanks for all the comments. All really appreciated, but actually some really useful stuff been said here, with special mentions to IRC, Siwhite and Crankboy for their useful links and knowledgable input. All will be used to push the ambo service 'Zero Tolerance' policy with a surprisingly reluctant Detective Sergeant, who was definitely minded to go with a conditional caution, with the condition being that the offender attend a 'victim impact' course. Personally I didn't feel that that fitted the crime, although I appreciate that views will differ.

(Hypothetically speaking, of course)

STW, pat yourselves on the back. You've been really helpful, yet again. 8) 8)

Edit;

Oh, and if we're talking legalities, it's essential service, not emergency service.

Anyone?

I hope this doesn't affect Mr Hypotheical too much in the long term. There's zero excuse for punching anyone when pissed, paramedic or not.

I know it's not sentencing guidelines, but can I suggest a lifetime ban from the use of NHS services should also be an appropriate answer. Medical insurance for private care should be the order of the day now, (assuming anyone would take him on).

Quite like that idea, difficult to administer though.

Punch someone in the face in the pub without provocation and you are banned from that pub, the same should apply here.

I'd be interested to know the origins of this 'essential service vs emergency service' thing

IIRC it was a jolly wease thought up during the last period the Tories were in power to de-couple ambulance pay from the formulas which were used to calculate pay rises used for the emergency services

ZERO TOLERANCE OF ATTACKS ON EMERGENCY SERVICES, Theres a clue in their name theyre there in an emergency,and sadly that thug put one of them out of action while getting treated also required ambulance and medical staff to treat the paramedic, all which could be helping people in real distress.

12 months in prison as a gap year, compo payment via small claims to paramedic.

. I'd be interested to know the origins of this 'essential service vs emergency service' thing, and whether it is a) still the case, and b) actually means anything at all.

Take a look at your retirement age and pension compared to the other services.

sounds like "actual bodily harm", Magistrates court, fine/suspended sentence, criminal record, bound over to keep the peace..hopefully