Not me - eldest daughter.
She is coming to the end of her 2 year grad job at a pretty large tech company. So far there has not been a permanent job forthcoming so has been looking around and has an offer of a 12 month contract at another large company in a position she reckons she will enjoy - other than the 12 month contract, which is not ideal, all fine.
The fly in the ointment is that she has waiting to hear on an application she has finished for a position with the original company - and it's more money and a permanent position.
She's going to hear if she's got it in less than a week (there's a good chance she will get it but nothing's guaranteed) but the new employer want her to start the new job in 10 days 😫
On one hand she wouldn't mind a change of company/role, but on the other she does like the original employer, feels comfortable and has friends there - plus more money and permanency. She's torn but it's not a decision she has to make unless she's offered the other position.
So - although she's signed the contract with the new company, can she change her mind without massive consequences if she decides she want to stay with her current employer?
The fly in the ointment is that she has waiting to hear on an application she has finished for a position with the original company - and it's more money and a permanent position.
Thats very ambiguous, has she submitted an application, or she has been interviewed and awaiting decision.
If the new employer wants her to start in 10 days time that would suggest that her current job finishes the end of next week? If thats the case she should have already spoke with current employ and asked them what is happening as because unless they sort within 8 days she will be unemployed.
Worst is she starts the new job and then resigns giving the relevant notice period and goes back to her old company.
I'd have thought the only consequence would be a black mark with company number 2 if she applied there again. But with GDPR now, chances are there would be nothing on file and it would only be the good memory of the recruitment team or dept head. And with the job only being a 12 month contract and possible other one being a perm, they'd probably be understanding anyway. Though obviously no job in the first 2 years is in anyway permanent.....
although she's signed the contract with the new company, can she change her mind without massive consequences if she decides she want to stay with her current employer?
In short, yes. The contract is pretty worthless until she starts, so there's no legal comeback if she decides not to start, it's something that happens surprisingly often.
What's worth being aware of is reputational damage, particularly if it's a small industry and/or if it's a company she might want to work for in the future. She could mitigate this by being professional and explaining why she has chosen not to start, citing the 12 month contract and the stability her current employer offers her. As a grad I'd not worry to much about this, but might if I was more senior.
I suspect you'll get responses here saying she should talk to both companies and explain the situation, but I'm not sure I'd suggest this at a grad level. Like above, it might be a conversation to have when you're more senior and have more leverage, but in entry level roles I'd not recommend that approach. A conversation could well lead to the new company withdrawing the offer and the old company not offering at all.
Her labour is a commodity in a market, feelings of loyalty/duty etc aren't really relevant. If theres no reputational risk, as lunge describes, then **** 'em, she got a better offer and that's that. (Assuming she gets the offer...)
This is one of those things about the modern world that I really struggle with. To my mind, if I accept a job with somebody I'm not going to let them down at the last minute just because I got a better offer. In fact, I'd immediately withdraw any other applications as soon as I accepted the job. But then I'm old. I've also mostly (although not exclusively) worked in academia where reputation matters and it probably would get round if you let somebody down like that.
But to be honest, these days, even in academia, there is hardly any loyalty from the employer to the employee and everybody is pretty much expected to just act in their own best interest. Maybe the company she lets down can reflect on the fact that a one year contract isn't going to inspire much loyalty.
Having seen the nightmare my eldest has had getting a big graduate employer to keep their word on roles and start dates, I'd have no problem with him blowing off another company for a better offer.
There would be a black mark, but only until she has skills they really want
I agree with the general consensus,
1) Badger the recruitment team at her current company to pull their finger out on the new job offer, running down the clock like that* doesn't reflect well on them although it does seem to be a depressingly common process these days. My employer did exactly the same, they by default now offer FTC's for 2 years (which give you the same rights anyway) before offering a permeant role. I can only assume they think it's easier from a an admin/guilt perspective when eliminating those first in redundancies.
2) Just write a nice professional e-mail to the other company explaining that on reflection the 12month contract didn't offer the security you wanted and you've pursued other options for permeant roles.
Corporate entities will shit on you and stiff you as soon as it's convenient and expedient for them. No one should consider that they owe them anything other than a transactional amount of labour in return for pay.
*I'm following the assumption her FTC expires in 10 days and she's not on a weeks notice that she's not yet given?
+1 on thisisaspoon.
perm role vs ftc a completely valid reason to change her mind and I don’t think that would even count as a black mark with that employer (as others have said, chance of any corporate memory is minimal in any case)
Theres no loyalty from employers any longer - I’ve heard of someone having a confirmed offer withdrawn (company reorg) after they’d accepted and turned down other jobs.
Also had people just not turn up on their first day. Or leave after a week.
Thats very ambiguous, has she submitted an application, or she has been interviewed and awaiting decision.
Sorry, done all the interviews and awaiting a decision.
If the new employer wants her to start in 10 days time that would suggest that her current job finishes the end of next week?
Current job runs until the end of August - The new employer is just very keen to get her there as the person she's replacing is leaving and they want a decent handover.
Not that it's important but apparently losing a grad is looked upon quite dimly by the current [global, well known] employer.
*I'm following the assumption her FTC expires in 10 days and she's not on a weeks notice that she's not yet given?
She's handed her [1 week] notice in today.
(I would like her to stay where she is but sods law dictates that if she turned down the other job she wouldn't get the position at company #1 and she needs to pay rent, etc!)
Current job runs until the end of August
They've taken on graduates on a fixed-term/temporary contract?? That's absolutely ****
Whatever she decides it'll be forgotten about in 20 years time.
Just do what feels right at this moment.
I've done it.
There is no loyality anymore. Happens all the time. People will be mildly annoyed and thats it.
The job would likely have a probation period with short notice either way anyway (often as little as a weeks notice)?
I know people who have pulled out of a job after ordering their company car and arranging hotels for their induction, even right up to the week before their start date.
There's no loyalty from most employers these days - they will quite happily get rid of their employees, so I'm quite happy to look out for myself with very little guilt.
She's handed her [1 week] notice in today.
(I would like her to stay where she is but sods law dictates that if she turned down the other job she wouldn't get the position at company #1 and she needs to pay rent, etc!)
Be interesting to see how they handle it and whether they try to retain her. I'd at least keep an open mind if the current company does come back with a better offer.
They've taken on graduates on a fixed-term/temporary contract?? That's absolutely ****depressingly normalized
FTFY
Theres no loyalty from employers any longer - I’ve heard of someone having a confirmed offer withdrawn (company reorg) after they’d accepted and turned down other jobs.
There have been whole cohorts on grad schemes get shafted like this in the last couple of years.
Employers won't have trouble filling entry level positions. Just take whichever offer is best.
I did this years ago. My old boss moved to a new company and shortly after he head-hunted me to do a similar role in his new company.
I accepted the offer as the salary was nearly 30% better than my current salary. When I handed in my notice, the (original) company owner unexpectedly offered to match the new salary I'd secured. So I stayed at the original company even though I'd signed the contract for the new company.🤷
It was a small industry in the same geographic location and I felt bad for my old boss but don't otherwise regret my action...
A job in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.
Current company needs to sort out its act now. If they eventually decide ‘yes, we want you’ and child has already started at new company then tough, negotiate a better better deal, serve notice, and rejoin current company with 1-3 months’ experience.
and child needs to decide what they want to do: hang on for the alleged job, or take up the job they’ve accepted.
Any hand wringing about loyalty and wotnot is fairly meaningless in today’s transactional jobs market. Any company will drop its employees like a hot potato if it will ‘increase shareholder value’ or meet some imminent target. As employees we need to seize the same power. It’s one of the reasons I’ve come around to some of the US ‘work at will’ values in recent years: mobility and dynamism in the labor market.
I’ve had someone turn up on day 2 and hand in their notice because the temp place they had been before had woken up to the fact he had left and was actually very good, and called him with a better offer. Bloody annoying, especially as we had turned down other candidates in a fast moving market etc. Nothing I can do about it and won’t show up on his CV.
Ive also fired someone within their first week of work, who despite being technically excellent, was a terrible fit.
my daughter is currently working two zero hours contracts and if she was offered stability and a job she wanted to do I’d tell her not to think twice about letting down the sort of people who call you an hour before your shift to say you are not needed. Somewhere slightly less chaotic I’d say work your notice - but if they wanted that to be longer it was in their gift to set it!
Also had people just not turn up on their first day.
This happened to my department in a 6th form college. A new HOD was appointed in May after the current one retired , she came once before the end of term for half a day to have a brief handover discussion. Heard nothing else and on the first day of term in late August she didn’t turn up or even contact the college. By lunchtime the SMT decided that they ought to call her- she was at her old school having decided that she didn’t want to move after all. As anyone who works in a School or college environment might appreciate this caused us a large problem. First, at very short notice we had to find another competent teacher who could take over her classes within a week and second we had to have someone to take over the HOD role to sort out the mess. The latter happened to be me.
Too late now. But when I got the job offer at Company 2, I'd have told Company 1 that I was off to Company 2 if they didnt make their minds up and decide to give me the permanent job before the point in time where I had to accept or reject Company 2's offer. Saying that the nature of only being on a contract meant she'd be risking being unemployed if she didnt take the Company2 offer by xx/xx/xxxx.
The fly in the ointment is that she has waiting to hear on an application she has finished for a position with the original company - and it's more money and a permanent position.
The key here is PERMANENT position. I don't think any competitor would not reasonably expect a young graduate to take such a position in lieu of a 12 month contract. She could be open with them after the offer arrives and see if they'll match it (unlikely). I presume her two years already counts? They won't get rid of her on Day 729 of her new permanent job?
It has happened to me (as an employer) twice before. We have gone through the recruitment process, the onboarding process - right to work etc and then the person has simply not turned up on the allotted start date.
As well as being a massive PITA and waste of money, you actually have a duty of care at that point. So you have to make sure they are not sick, not dead in a ditch on their way to work and that they have actually just changed their mind. I one case I actually had to drive to the person's house to do a welfare check, to be met with an angry boyfriend of my 'new employee' demanding to know why I was invading his privacy, denying he knew the person (the car she used to attend the interviews was on his driveway) and telling me in no uncertain terms to F off. We still had to write to her to formally terminate the employment. I still worry about her to this day, but ultimately it was a bullet dodged.
Leaglyy we could do nothing about it.
I guess what I am saying, is that if she doesn't take the role, she should at least do the decent thing and tell them she has changed her mind.
It might seem a bit disloyal, but remember that either company will dump your daughter the minute she is no further use to them - there are no longer any jobs for life.
She has to do what's best for her, simple as that.
It might seem a bit disloyal, but remember that either company will dump your daughter the minute she is no further use to them - there are no longer any jobs for life.
Never forget your only being employed because they can’t get a machine cheaper to do your job 🙂
As well as 2 weeks after you leave a job you will be forgotten.
I was chatting to a cousin of mine in the pub a week or two ago, and he found himself in that sort of situation, he’d applied for a job, and been accepted, at an engineering company, but he’d also applied, just in case, for a job with the MOD, at their big setup at Copenacre, Corsham, and got a call from them to come in and see them.
He got offered a job there, as well.
He took that job, after apologising profusely to the other company, and eventually found himself working on a variety of submersibles and submarines…
I haven’t read all the replies above, but I have had people do this to me as a manager (public sector) and whilst it’s an annoyance, I wouldn’t ever hold a grudge or think of blacklisting anyone (not that blacklisting is a thing in my line of work), especially if I’m not offering a permanent role. Shite happens and as an employee myself I just get on with it and phone the next person on the list and hope they are still interested.
Thought I'd update this.
As I suspected company 1 have now offered her a permanent position with more money than the [potentially more "exciting" ] lower paid 12 month contract at company 2.
She's now torn.
As a father I want her to take option 1 but she's always been adventurous 😩
May as well say who's involved:
Company 1 is eBay
Company 2 is a subsidiary company of Virgin Group.
I'm a senior research technician working at a large university and have been on fixed term contracts, some as short as 6 months, some as long as 5yrs, since I graduated (as a mature student), in 1998. I'm 5yrs away from retirement, but my current contract runs out in 2yrs time. Even now, at this late stage in the game. I would bite your arm off for a permanent post.
Car loans, mortgages, any sort of long term plans are a pain to organise when you know you could be out of a job at the end of your contract.
B.
Loyalty, schmoyalty, in this situation: 2 massive companies, one of which is really keen to keep grads ("poor form to lose one") but did nothing to active to ensure they kept her. The other one doesn't value her, or the bum on the seat they need to fill, past next summer.
I'd stick with ebay in her shoes: more money, security, the knowledge that she gets on with the set-up. Unless the Virgin job really is exciting enough to outweigh the pay gap and having to go through this again next year.
I'd take eBay but that's because I'm old and boring and have bills to pay. I may not have done if I was in my 20's with less responsibility. Could she ask Virgin if they'll change it to permanent? No harm in asking, worst case is they say no.
Could she ask Virgin if they'll change it to permanent? No harm in asking, worst case is they say no.
They could still sack her after a year with no repercussions.
If she has no ties or bills and is still living under your roof then tell her to go for excitement. She's only young once and you can't get that time back.
If she's got rent to pay then stick with eBay!
the-muffin-man
(fence sitting specialist! 😀)
They could still sack her after a year with no repercussions.
You could argue either company could sack her after 2 years with no repercussions...
Could she ask Virgin if they'll change it to permanent?
Tried that before.... It's not what they do ...which gives me co cern.
Company 1, she knows the company, has friends there and there is more money and they are behaving decently by offering a normal contract.
On principle I would not take Company 2 as I see this type of contract as taking advantage and that would put me off the company no matter how exciting the job sounds.
In theory a short term contract should pay more not less, but I know it doesn’t always work like that.
I am not in my 20s, so my thoughts will probably be different.
