[Closed] Learners on motorways

Texting, shaving, applying makeup and eating cornflakes.

All at the same time.

Snoozing safely

Fitting contact lenses/eye drops

Approaching M-may, 40mph in outside lane on slip road, braking hard cos er, you can't filter into 70mph traffic while going that slow. Multiple looks over shoulder cos your mirrors aren't adjusted to see what is coming.

Signalling your demand for the driver in front to pull in as you are much more important than them by driving <6 inches from their rear bumper.

Oh and, every young driver needs to know that the ONLY place you indicate is the right indicator to get onto the M-way. Otherwise that stalk is surplus to requirements.

Going by my trip around the M25 on Saturday, the ability to drive three lanes deep at 50mph with not quite enough space to get another car in.

Oh and, every young driver needs to know that the ONLY place you indicate is the right indicator to get onto the M-way. Otherwise that stalk is surplus to requirements.

...unless you're in the outside lane, six inches behind the car in front , in which case it's permissible to indicate right to really drive home the point that you wish to overtake.

See also: Full beam.

tailgating (but that's more important for the HGV test)

also practice how close you can get to 70 in an average speed camera 50 zone thru roadworks (again, especially for the commercial drivers whose licence is a critical requirement for their job)

Indicate, wait for bulb to flash once and then pull straight into non-existent gap causing car to brake

Turning round in your chair to administer a couple of judicious slaps to the  two kids fighting on the back  seat.

Plenty of learner drivers already “driving” on Motorways...

At least this initiative does give learners some “guidance” ..

Which I’m all in favour of.

Pissing* into an empty Red Bull** can at 80mph.

*Male learners only

**Other caffeine based, tinned beverages are available.

Pissing* into an empty Red Bull** can at 80mph.

That's impressive. I don't think I could maintain that amount of pressure.

Usually slow to a sedate 5mph dribble towards the end.

You must not pee a lot. I'd struggle not to overflow a monster energy can never mind a tiny red bull one.

Pro tip : Lucozade or Oasis bottles have a much wider neck.

ooh get you Bertie Bigballs

Not me..... 2 sons with poor aim.

..and that's why your car smells like a care home 😉

Pro tip : Lucozade or Oasis bottles have a much wider neck.

Ah, but training isn't required. Cans take proper skill. Especially the switch between to prevent overflow, as pointed out by km79.

Pure amateurs...

Everyone knows these are what you need for the discerning driver on a longer journey ...

Always thought it was crazy that you could pass your test without ever having driven on  motorway, at night or in the pee'ing rain.. ...

Always thought it was crazy that you could pass your test without ever having driven on motorway

but there are no real unique skills required for the motorway - there's plenty of slip roads onto dual carriageways and they are often shorter so more of a test.

What else is there, the driving lane is on the left, just the same ?

Apparently the vehicle has to have dual controls and the learner very close to sitting their driving test ..but yep ..long overdue .

TurnerGuy..

An extra lane for starters and generally  vehicles travelling a lot faster ..

Hope they teach them what the three lanes are for

Left - slow

Middle - Fast

Right - Fasterer

Edit - Not serious.

Approaching M-may, 40mph in outside lane on slip road, braking hard cos er, you can’t filter into 70mph traffic while going that slow. Multiple looks over shoulder cos your mirrors aren’t adjusted to see what is coming.

I thought it was de rigeur to barge on expecting those already on the motorway to leap out of the way into the path of faster moving traffic.

There are only two rules:

1) Whoever is in front of you is a target.

2) Whoever is behind you is a threat.

True story, I actually said that to a Driving Standards Evaluator (or some equally joyless job title) who you had to spend half a day with before you could have your company car back in the day. It was clearly a joke, I laughed, he... actually I don't know what you call whatever he did to react, but it was clear he knew it was meant to be humorous and then I drove like an absolute saint, I didn't drive that well on my test. Mirror-signal-manoeuvre, ten to bloody two on the wheel at all times. Didn't speed, I was gracious and graceful behind the wheel.

The prick wrote it down and told my boss that he thought I had aggressive tendencies behind the wheel and was only behaving myself because he was there.

An extra lane for starters and generally vehicles travelling a lot faster ..

serously ?

An extra lane presents a problem ?

It is just one extra overtaking lane, nothing special, if you can cope with the driving lane being on the left and there being an overtaking lane, you can surely cope with there being two overtaking lanes?

And not much faster as most dual carriageways are NSL so just as fast and probably more crowded to get onto.

If you have problems with those two things then perhaps you are not ready for a driving test.

And dual-controls - if your instructor is not confident enough in your abilities that he needs dual-controls then you are really not near ready for a driving test.

I think motorways are different, not saying half the lessons need to be on there, but at least clock a couple of hours on the motorway to get used to changing lanes confidently, average speed sections, changing speeds of cars between the lanes etc, i have met a number of adults that drive, yet won't travel on motorways as they find it different.

Again, as above, i think that some of your lessons should be at night and there should be bad weather training at a skid-pan or similar. Think how many accidents involving younger drivers are where they get their first independence and are driving at night, and/ or where they have lost control of the vehicle and spun or left the road?

In the same way, they should teach them to deal with cyclists and horses and other vulnerable road users correctly from the off.

those already on the motorway to leap out of the way into the path of faster moving traffic.

Oh yes, there is that other skill of moving into the middle lane 5 miles before the next on-ramp, just in case someone might want to join the m-way.

serously ?

An extra lane presents a problem ?

Er, why else have they just decided to allow "Learners on motorways"??

there should be bad weather training at a skid-pan or similar

that would be a very good suggestion.

Er, why else have they just decided to allow “Learners on motorways”??

to get a headline ? divert from other news ?

the main problem with motorways for those who dislike them seems to be getting on to them from the slip road, probably not enough spacial awareness to make them feel comfortable turning their head to look out the side/rear windows and instead rely on their side mirrors.

Why don't learners have to go over to Europe to learn to drive on the other side of the road - that's more of a challenge than another lane, surely?

They could do that here. As long as they have dual control.

As long as they have dual control.

if they are close to be able to taking their test, and therefore supposedly somewhat competent, why do they need a car with dual controls ?

I can't believe they still don't go near a skid pan & getting learner drivers to feel what it's like when the car moves in unexpected directions. The first time a car skids the usual result is panic then bang. Even if you know the theory it all goes out the window

why do they need a car with dual controls ?

Er, fergidaboudit.

These days, thanks to ABS / DSC and other safety net electronics, luckily the classic 'PANIC' reaction when the car "unexpectedly" starts skidding of braking is actually not a bad one!

(ive put unexpectedly in quotes because ime, it's most often not the least bit unexpected, it's just the driver hasn't spotted the blatantly obvious warning signs.)

I'd also say that an a skid pan test is practically useless, as the average driver will have not intrinsically (ie muscle memory,not conscious thought) learn't the necessary response, esp. in a panic situation.   IME, doing high speed driver training, something that does work is putting the driver into a car that can be caused to suddenly spin (we used a modified ABS system to lock a front wheel and pitch the car into a spin), getting them to cruise up to 70 mph on a wide ex airforce base runway, and then without warning spinning the car!

Call it shock tactics, but it tends to be a lesson that is remembered, as the average driver really doesn't like going backwards at 70mph, especially when you after you've stopped you get out, look at the skid marks, generally covering pretty much all the width of the runway, and say "fancy that happening on the M1 in rush hour??

Leaving a service station and joining the A1 using the tiny slip road is far more dangerous than any motorway I've ever been on.

Er, fergidaboudit.

is that because you can't explain why someone who is suppossed to be pretty close to a competant driver already would need to be nursemaided to this degree ?

Twice in the last year I have worked with people who have admitted they "didn't know" that they could drive in Lane 1. They thought it was for trucks.

One of them had literally found out the week prior; the other was completely oblivious.

Even yesterday we attended a party about 45 mins away from home by motorway. A lady there had chosen to get there by A-roads as she doesn't do motorways and never has. Someone else had refused the invitation (kid's 8th birthday) because of the drive.

This new rule/idea is A Good Thing.

When I'm in power mandatory 5 year relicensing will be in force.

TurnerGuy - are you being deliberately obstinate?  Nobody is insisting learners MUST do the training, what they are doing is giving them the option.  They have always had the option to go for a lesson after passing their test but uptake of that is relatively low (possibly because it costs extra - by making it seem like it is part of the pre test cost it doesn't seem like an extra, and possibly because nobody* likes to think they are not an automatic driving god).

Research suggested that a significant number of newly qualified drivers were intentionally avoiding M-ways, which was part of the motivation to allow pre-test training.  The fact people are highlighting the issues they see with driving behaviour on motorways seems to suggest there is a need for training.

In some parts of the country you can clearly gain similar experiences to simple motorways from dual c/way but not every DC is comparable, and certainly some m/ways are very different.  How many learners live close to such "pseudo motorways" though compared to motorways.

*obviously some admit this, and e.g. I did go for a motorway lesson after passing my test - I'm not sure I had ever properly had to overtake anyone to pass my test, city test centre (like most people) and certainly no DC > 50 mph that I can think of.

is that because you can’t explain why someone who is suppossed to be pretty close to a competant driver already would need to be nursemaided to this degree ?

Well its a moot point because there is no actual requirement for the driving instructor to determine they are of a particular standard before heading for a Mway - it would just obviously be a stupid thing to do on lesson 1!

However dual controls seems like a wise choice for what is likely to be the first time someone has driven at 70 mph who has yet to independently verify their driving skills even at lower speeds.  At those speeds reacting to any hazards needs to be swift.  Insurance stats show that plenty of newly qualified drivers are likely to get their judgement wrong so I don't see why you wouldn't want an extra defence for the not yet qualified, why do you think it is stupid?

Actually no. Its because you... ah fergedaboudit

Does anybody else prefer motorway driving to other roads? I do. No traffic coming the other way, side roads, horses, pedestrians etc. It’s just a bit monotonous compared to standard roads. If we could shoot all the dickheads that travel in lanes two and three and explode those who brake for no reason and don’t leave safe distance between vehicles it would be brilliant.

I agree with the idea - why wouldn't you want as much experience of the type of driving you'll almost certainly have to do?  I got lost on the day I passed my test (I'd had a car sitting on the driveway for a month or so) and accidentally ended up on the M62.  I only stayed on for 1 junction but It properly scared me at 17.

why do you think it is stupid?

because I tried an instructor who felt the need to have dual controls in his car, and I tried an instructor that had enough confidence in his own ability to teach to not have dual-controls and the difference was stark, the dual-control guy was a lot more nervous and I wouldn't fancy him panicing on the motorway.

For example with dual controls the nervous instructor would panic and stop me feet from a junction so I then had to crawl back up to see the oncoming traffic, whereas the none-dual controls instructor was confident enough in my driving abilities to look at stuff we were passing out of the side window, and I think I only had about 6 lessons with him before my test, that I passed.

Perhaps one instructor was more confident because he was that kind of guy.

Sample of 2 instructors. Good stuff. Love it 😆

Funnily enough all the suggestions like Mway training and skid pan training are all part of the German driving test system. Doing first aid training, too. My 16 yo son who is nearly 17 is starting his long road to having a driving license. He has six months of theoretical training 2 times a week then he has to do first aid training and pass the test before he is even allowed behind the wheel of a car.

Mway training is part of the Spanish test, too - my daughter had her first go on a local autovía and said it was pretty scary - practising this and getting over the fear with an instructor next to you sounds like an excellent addition to the UK test.

Perhaps one instructor was more confident because he was that kind of guy.

precisely, which type of guy would you prefer as an instructor ? The one confident in his teaching abilities or the one unsure enough to feel he needs to buy a dual-control vehicle?

Sample of 2 instructors. Good stuff. Love it 😆

I have the feeling that dual-control vehicles will appeal to the more nervous instructor, and I'd rather not have that type of instructor thanks.

I thought you said you had passed your test.

(Oh god I've done it again havent I)

The government is due to announce that drivers of cars beginning A and B are all due to be retested, so thats all AUDI AND BMW drivers to start with, who basicly dont understand the inside and middle lane are available to drive in even when empty..

TurnerGuy..are you really so dense as to not realise why instructors have a dual control vehicle ?

It's not because they are nervous ..its to instil confidence in their pupils who know that if they **** up there is back up in the form of their teacher ..

As a 17 year old driver who passed his test at that age 44years ago ..it definitely felt like a benefit to me .

Turning round in your chair to administer a couple of judicious slaps to the  two kids fighting on the back  seat.

Much more likely to happen during the school run, which is highly unlikely to be on a motorway. It’s what killed a mother locally when she did exactly that, veered across the road into the front of a truck. Neither was doing more than 30mph...

Approaching M-may, 40mph in outside lane on slip road, braking hard cos er, you can’t filter into 70mph traffic while going that slow. Multiple looks over shoulder cos your mirrors aren’t adjusted to see what is coming.

I thought it was de rigeur to barge on expecting those already on the motorway to leap out of the way into the path of faster moving traffic.

Motorway etiquette seems to be that when approaching an on-ramp drivers move into the middle lane to allow joining traffic a clear run into lane 1, then, if clear, a move out to lane 2 to pass any slower traffic, usually trucks, before going back into 1. At least, this is how it seems to work while I’ve been driving thousands of miles over the last two years or so. Of course, not everyone moves across, or can, because of traffic in the middle lane, so judging your speed and approach while coming down the ramp is still crucial, and anything that helps has got to be a good thing.

because I tried an instructor who felt the need to have dual controls in his car, and I tried an instructor that had enough confidence in his own ability to teach to not have dual-controls and the difference was stark, the dual-control guy was a lot more nervous and I wouldn’t fancy him panicing on the motorway.

For example with dual controls the nervous instructor would panic and stop me feet from a junction so I then had to crawl back up to see the oncoming traffic, whereas the none-dual controls instructor was confident enough in my driving abilities to look at stuff we were passing out of the side window, and I think I only had about 6 lessons with him before my test, that I passed.

when was this?  There can’t be many professional instructors around in 2018 that don’t have dual controls.  I’d imagine getting insurance for that would be more expensive too.

it sounds like the first instructor thought you were approaching the junctions too confidently/aggressively.  My experience of people who boast about how few lessons they need is they usually believe they are superior drivers, with some inate natural ability.  It’s refreshing to see you attribute that to the instructor 😉

Turning round in your chair to administer a couple of judicious slaps to the  two kids fighting on the back  seat.

Much more likely to happen during the school run, which is highly unlikely to be on a motorway

Clearly, you've never had to drive 600 miles to Cornwall with 3 bored children, who are super excited about going on holiday but have no available outlet for that excitement because they've been in the back of the car for the last 9 hours and they're getting a bit  tired and cranky.

If my children ever "go missing"  start the search along the hard shoulder of the M5.

Motorway etiquette

I think you mean thick people's driving etiquette. (Plus, what you've quoted from me and what you've gone on to (ahem) [i]explain[/i] are unrelated)

it sounds like the first instructor thought you were approaching the junctions too confidently/aggressively. My experience of people who boast about how few lessons they need is they usually believe they are superior drivers, with some inate natural ability. It’s refreshing to see you attribute that to the instructor 😉

I'd already driven hundreds of miles with my mother and father instructing me, on a Sunbeam Alpine with heavy steering and clutch, a Hilman Imp, an Alfa 1750 GTV and the VW Polo I had just bought. I didn't want to take my test before Uni as I didn't want the gap of Uni before I started driving my own car - I was just pointing out that I was pretty close to test standard already.

If my braking before a junction was good enough to satisfy my mother when instructing me, then it would surely be good enough for an actual instructor to not take over and stop me abruptly several feet before it.

I see a lot of instructors around in cars without dual controls - there's no requirements that it should have them and you can use your own car for lessons - but it seems that will be no good for this motorway training.

The point was that if the driver did not feel confident enough in their pupil that they could handle driving on a motorway without the safety net of dual-controls, then maybe they were not ready to go on a motorway at all, and therefore they are not close to test standard.

TurnerGuy..are you really so dense as to not realise why instructors have a dual control vehicle ?

It’s not because they are nervous ..its to instil confidence in their pupils

didn't instill confidence in me, that's why I moved on to another instructor, someone called Tony Turner !

I choose him as he was using a VW Polo like the one I had just bought, then he turned up in a new car that was different, so we used my car to learn on.

=AWESOME?

=AWESOME?

Bit bizarre really. I've been driving since 1983 and not really thought about dual-control until now (I can't even remember if old Bill, my instructor had it in his Vauxhall Viva or not). To be so obsessed with it... well, bizarre.

=AWESOME?

where did I ever say that ?

the requirement for motorway training demands a dual-control car, but if you are of the standard required to be almost ready to take your test then you shouldn't need to be nursemaided to that extent, as very soon you are going to be in a car on your own without the comfort of someone ready to grab the dual controls if you screw up.

that requirement also means that your choice of driving instructor is now restricted to those with dual-control cars, and in my case I much preferred to have the instructor that was confident enough in his instruction abilities to not need dual-controls.

Surely the point about needing dual controls is so you don't get any old ****wit with an L plate driving their mum and dad home from the pub down the bloody motorway and it has to a proper lesson!

Surely the point about needing dual controls is so you don’t get any old **** with an L plate driving their mum and dad home from the pub down the bloody motorway and it has to a proper lesson!

but why do you need dual-controls for a lesson ?

Sure - make the requirement for an actual instructor but not an instructor that has to have a car with dual controls as their pupil should not need them, they are suppossed to be of near test standard, and therefore reasonably competant already.

[i]but why do you need dual-controls for a lesson ?[/i]

So the instructor can brake or steer if necessary. Obvious innit.

So the instructor can brake or steer if necessary. Obvious innit.

but why would he need to if the pupil is of a competant enough standard to about to take their driving test ?

Remember, possibly in a couple of weeks this learner driver is going to be driving around on their own without anyone ready to brake or steer for them if they screw up.

but why would he need to if the pupil is of a competant enough standard to about to take their driving test ?

Because that's the law they've just brought in. Look, it says it here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/learner-drivers-will-be-allowed-on-motorways-from-2018

Because that’s the law they’ve just brought in. Look, it says it here: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/learner-drivers-will-be-allowed-on-motorways-from-2018/a >

is this the start of the thread again, FFS ?

that doesn't explain the rationale for requiring dual-controls, but it does restrict your choice of instructor to those who are not very confident in their ability to teach another person to drive.

I see your arguments about dual-control, but you state that is when the learner is already pretty competent, what about those that are starting from new? Never been in a car before, i think dual-control has a lot to offer then?

Insurance is a big thing too, if the learner crashes, it is on the instructors insurance, try explaining to an insurers why the learner drove into the back of the car in front because the instructor did not believe in dual-control.

Or should there be some sort of pre-test test, to make sure the learner is competent enough to go without the dual control and some part during the process?

those who are not very confident in their ability to teach another person to drive.

Thats purely what you believe rather than fact. Maybe you should phone up a few driving schools and ask them about it.

There are people out there who have actually passed their test and can't drive well on motorways. I know people who have passed their driving test and daren't drive on motorways. Just because someone has taken x amount of previous lessons and therefore should be competent doesn't mean they are, and the consequences of an accident on a motorway is magnified due to the speeds involved so dual controls will help to mitigate against this.

It all seems very simple to me.

I see your arguments about dual-control, but you state that is when the learner is already pretty competent, what about those that are starting from new? Never been in a car before, i think dual-control has a lot to offer then?

Maybe, but having someone take the controls away from you because they don't trust you isn't very confidence inspiring.

But starting out is a long way from being competant enough for your test, where it would be fairly shocking if someone needed to grab the controls from you.

Sunday trading removes a lot of good practise opportunities where you could go learn clutch control in a big open space, which was pretty useful. You could get up early on a Sunday and still find those empty car parks.

It has to be a good idea - expose the inexperienced to the truly intergalactic levels of aggression, stupidity and recklessness experienced on motorways whilst in the company of someone who could theoretically help them out.

Motorways are different - it's quite simple really:

Three lanes versus a two-lane dual carriageway = +50% more idiots.

Here's an idea - make dashcams mandatory in these cars too - and give the qualified driving instructor powers of arrest. Might reverse the trend of being able to get away with whatever you want because we can't afford to pay any coppers nowadays.

is this the start of the thread again, FFS ?

Well, you keep repeating the same bollocks, so I thought I might as well start it again.
You keep asking [i]the forum[/i] why the car should have dual controls. It's all quite irrational.

Oh, and the reason no-one is arguing the point with you is because [i]nobody else cares[/i] 😆

You are correct DezB ..like a stuck record he keeps churning out the same line..

Why don't we just let the lad believe what he wants ..clearly no one else agrees with him and if we don't respond he might just get tired of repeating himself and go away ..