[Closed] laptops - microsoft vs apple

looks like you can get refurbed macbooks for around £600, id guess a small windows machine would be cheaper.

My brand new dell laptop with a spec light years ahead of what you need was about 400 from the outlet with a full warranty and its brand new. For what you need a mac is way over priced, if your getting a refurb one then it's probably fairly old too.

Win 10 is solid and stable, really easy to use too. If someone can't provide support you shouldn't be touching their software. If it's an email client (first Google hit) then I would hope to see zero issues or I'd be dropping them for something mainstream and stable anyway.

A Windows machine that meets those specs will actually be about £300.  Budget another £40 for a solid state drive and it'll fly along.

Buying a used Macbook is like buying a second-hand BMW 3-series.  It wasn't brilliant to begin with and you can get there's a damned good reason the owner got rid of it in the first place.

I used to own a Macbook Pro.  The battery swelled after 2 years and cracked the logic board.  Apple weren't interested in anything but selling me a new laptop.

Edit: Actually, this does everything you need.
https://www.ebuyer.com/819842-hp-250-g6-i5-laptop-3kx90es-3kx90es-abu

spot on, thank you very much.

Definitely more of a learning curve with Mac OS if you've always used Windows. I've been working on Linux and Mac OS for over 3 years, and it still makes me think when carrying out basic tasks. Feel right at home back on Windows.

More bang for your buck with a standard PC too. Especially when you factor in all the other peripherals (mouse will set you back £80 for your Macbook... Keyboard is even more)

I’ve got a Windows laptop and Mrs FD has a Mac Air

The laptop is slowing down, has regular annoying updates, gets hot etc.

The MAC just works as faultlessly now as it did when new 5 years ago

Double the price but just better

For just under your refurb macbook price

https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/laptops-notebooks-and-2-in-1-laptops/inspiron-13-5000/spd/inspiron-13-5378-2-in-1-laptop/cn53716

The laptop is slowing down, has regular annoying updates, gets hot etc.

The MAC just works as faultlessly now as it did when new 5 years ago

Double the price but just better

Some quick points - updates are good, they also happen only once a month unless something really serious comes out. You need to set them up on day 1 but that is it.

Longevity? Just replaced a 7 year old dell, I used it for work for 3 years, handed back another 3 year old dell when I left Oz, worked just fine.

Heat means some fans/vents are blocked.

If you spend MAC  prices on windows hardware you will get the same if not better build quality.

Writing this on a 2011 Macbook - new SSD, RAM upgrade and battery earlier this year and it just whizzes along. It has never blue-screened on me once and had a cup of coffee thrown over it. Previously had a succession of Windows laptops that would slow down to pedestrian speeds after 2-3 years, was always having to worry about keeping my virus checker updated and they'd still fall-over periodically. Had a MS Surface Pro for work for a number of years too - had three complete hardware failures in that time.  Looking to buy a second laptop for my new business - investigating refurbed Macbook because they simply work.

Small, and would fit your bill  - a 2nd hand Dell XPS 13 - they are lovely machines to use. The 4K screens on some of them are gorgeous, though overkill for your stated use.

I paid £900-ish for a 2nd hand one that had zero use - i7 processor, 4k screen, 16Gb of ram. You'll get far better value for £600 of XPS than you will with Apple.

and OP whats the spec of the £600 Macbook? What vintage is it?

The whole Mac vs PC debate - is one better than the other, etc..?

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence both ways. Much of the time it's comparing a £2,000 Mac with a £300 PC.

That said, for day to day stuff, I've honestly never noticed any real difference in performance between my £300 PC and my brand new Macbook Pro.

For me personally, none of my PCs have slowed down. If you're vigilant with viruses and malware, it's generally not an issue. Blue screens are really a thing of the past on Windows. My Macbook Pro however, died and refused to boot up until I did a disk repair, because of a failed update around 4 weeks into owning it... (Google told me it was a common problem)

They both work just fine, and they both have their moments. Neither is better. They're just different.

The whole Mac vs PC debate – is one better than the other, etc..?

There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence both ways. Much of the time it’s comparing a £2,000 Mac with a £300 PC.

This.  Or it's the opinion of someone who hasn't touched a PC since Windows XP days.  I can't remember the last time I had a PC bluescreen or had to manually update AV, for instance.  (Actually, tell a lie, I had a bluescreen a couple of months back due to a shonky third party driver for a cheap-ass peripheral - hardly the fault of the OS.)

It's probably worth making the distinction here between hardware and software.  At a hardware level a modern Mac is a PC in all but name, if you were to spend Apple money on a windows laptop / desktop PC you'd end up with hardware that's at least as good and potentially better than the Apple equivalent; comparing a Happy Shopper PC to a high-end Mac is silly, of course the Mac is going to be better in that situation.

Software wise we're looking at Windows vs OSX (vs Linux), and so long as your choice will actually run the software you want then it really boils down to personal preference.

My old late-2011 MacBook runs everything my new work MacBook Pro runs (mainly Adobe CC) with little noticeable speed difference. The RAM is max'd out and it has a new-ish SSD HD in it (which made a massive difference) but is otherwise stock. Battery still lasts a few hours too - nearly as much as the brand new Mac (sigh).

Screen's not quite as nice, but it has a CD drive, real USB ports and an SD card insert - genuinely useful. I'm guessing they won't cost the earth now. If you're thinking Mac it may be worth a look.

If you buy  Apple, it's almost guaranteed to run OS updates for 5+ years - in fact I'm writing this on a 2012 mac mini running the latest os. I suspect it won't get the next big update, but it's fine for now. My similar vintage MBP is also still going, but doesn't really get used much these days.

I've recently gone back to a Windows laptop. I had one of the small Dell laptops for work, and really liked it so I've bought a similar model for home use.

Windows 10 isn't the complete bag of shite it was initially and is now fairly pleasant to use. I even find myself missing the snap to corner features when I go back to a Mac.

If you've never used a Mac, I'd probably stick with a new windows machine. They aren't as crap as they used to be*

*(I should work in marketing).

if you were to spend Apple money on a windows laptop / desktop PC you’d end up with hardware that’s at least as good and potentially better than the Apple equivalent

I did exactly this in 2012 for a project I was working on that we needed to demonstrate to both Windows and Mac users. I ended up with a Macbook Pro with an i5 CPU, 8GB RAM, a 500GB HDD, and a low resolution screen, plus a Dell XPS12 with an i7 CPU, 8GB RAM, a 256 GB SSD, and an HD touchscreen that flips around for use as a tablet. The Macbook has a much nicer touchpad, absolute no question. The Mac keyboard is probably slightly better, but there's not much in it. The Dell boots up in about 20 seconds, the Mac takes a couple of minutes.

Because I use some specialized software for work that is Windows only, I tried installing Windows using Parallels, but it sucked so now I just use the Mac to run Windows using Bootcamp. The Mac keyboard is annoying for using Windows because it lacks a proper Start key.

After six years of use, the Dell is starting to look a bit tatty. I have probably used it 80% of the time because it's thinner and lighter and has a better screen, so that's the one I always haul around. The Mac just stays in my office for use when I leave the Dell at home if it's raining or I can't be bothered hauling it around. The Dell still functions perfectly, but it looks like it's had 6 years of hard use and the edge of the screen looks like it's starting to delaminate. I need to update the Mac OS because I think Apple are going to cut that model off from OS X updates, so I need to get it sorted with the most recent OS. Microsoft are far better at legacy support of Windows, the Dell should keep getting updates until it dies of old age. Big advantage for Windows there if you're planning on keeping the machine for a long time.

So, IME, if you buy a decent spec Windows machine, you'll get a better machine and you can expect it to last 5 years or more. If you want a really nice touch pad and don't mind paying a lot more, get a Macbook.

The Mac/PC debate on here is laughable. Every one of the "get a PC" crowd up there will have a bike that costs way more than they "need" and does about the same as a £300 Halfords job.

If you're price conscious and live by a UI get a PC

If you like a bit of quality with unix under the hood get a Mac

But seems like everyone forgot this "... all have them, so any problems may be easier if we all have the same software/OS" which would probably swing it for me if it was mission critical.

The Mac/PC debate on here is laughable. Every one of the “get a PC” crowd up there will have a bike that costs way more than they “need” and does about the same as a £300 Halfords job.

I have a £400 Halfords job 🙂

That's been my 'good' MTB for 10 years.

There are two advantages of Mac.

1) They are nicely made machines

2) Everything in Mac world is very well tested and works really well together.

However, there are flip-sides to both these.

1) They are expensive, and there are also similarly well made PCs around for less.

2) You have to pay for this privilege.  £80 for an Apple mouse anyone?  £120 for a bloody keyboard?  Yes, Apple monitors are nice, but there are plenty of other top notch monitors around for the price.

The Mac keyboard is annoying for using Windows because it lacks a proper Start key.

Ctrl-Esc predates keyboards with a Windows key, that should still work.

If you are half confident on a computer os x shouldn't be an issue. People that can't work either os x or windows interchangeably after a day or two are pretty much luddites. 😆 If they have a religious preference, then they are just fashion victims.

I don't really see any benefit to the argument they are all on OS X so I must be, it's software, it'll be fine on either.

Ultimately the question is do you want to pony up for a mac, if you do, go for it. Overpriced, yes, but they are good machines and it's a nice OS.

One thing people often forget is that Mac's have much better resale value. If you are the kind of person that takes care of things then you can often sell your Mac for a decent price when you next upgrade.

The Mac keyboard is annoying for using Windows because it lacks a proper Start key.

Been a while since I used bootcamp, but it used to be mapped to the left Cmd key.

eta:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202676

don't really understand the arguement of Apple Mice costing a lot of money - it's not as if they're the only ones you can use with a Mac.   No one is saying that Dell/MS mice are crap so don't bother buying one of their laptops - other than bespoke/niche industries, I don't know anyone who's making a computer based decision on periphials made by their computer manuacturer of choice

(actually - I do know of a couple of people who swear by the mac trackpads and cite this one of the reasons they got another mac but that doesn't fit the narrative does it)

One thing people often forget is that Mac’s have much better resale value. If you are the kind of person that

The op is looking at refurb for 600 quid he is just returning the previous owners deposit...  What's the resale on a mac with another 3 years on the clock?

As said not all things are equal as in the spec of the refurb machine is probably quite a long way back.

I don’t really see any benefit to the argument they are all on OS X so I must be, it’s software, it’ll be fine on either.

There are lots of subtle incompatibilities in various software.  Excel springs to mind.  Some stuff isn't supported on Macs IIRC.

Personally prefer W10 to OSX, having used both.

Been a while since I used bootcamp, but it used to be mapped to the left Cmd key.

Yes, that's what I mean. It's annoying.

Yes, that’s what I mean. It’s annoying.

You mean because it's in the wrong place (next to the space bar)? I agree, I think you might be able to swap it with some utility or other.

However as a coder, what's really annoying are the special keys like @, |, # and " being in the wrong place is more annoying for me. # especially, since it is something like option-4

However as a coder, what’s really annoying are the special keys like @, |, # and ” being in the wrong place is more annoying for me. # especially, since it is something like option-4

I'm not a programmer, but some of the (Windows specific) software I use for work uses plain text control files that need to be manually edited to specify the parameters of each job. The Mac keyboard handles carriage returns differently and can cause problems if they're edited in Notepad. Just too many annoying details to make it worth bothering with Macs. They are very pretty, but I need to get work done and proper Windows machines are better for that.

don’t really understand the arguement of Apple Mice costing a lot of money – it’s not as if they’re the only ones you can use with a Mac.

I meant that it's the Apple ones that have been tested to 'just work', so to speak. So with third party stuff it might have niggles. I have a nice Microsoft Bluetooth keyboard and mouse for example and they does drop in and out, whereas they are both fine with my Microsoft PC.

So the 'it just works' argument mostly applies to Macs using Apple stuff IME.

thanks, hadnt expected this to run quite so long 🙂

all good points, think id be leaning towards windows then, but just one thing that puzzled me within your replies.....

 Especially when you factor in all the other peripherals (mouse will set you back £80 for your Macbook… Keyboard is even more)

why would i need to pay for a mouse and keyboard?  arent they just laptops, the same as microsoft, so trackpad built in?

thanks

why would i need to pay for a mouse and keyboard?  arent they just laptops, the same as microsoft, so trackpad built in?

Personally a trackpad is a quick way to RSI bad posture for me but each to their own.

Basically to sum up if you need a logo get the apple, if not you can get a brand new dececnt spec windows laptop that should last 5 years for less than a refurb mac.

But just to check what is the postbox software? Only one I found was a mail client and really spending a few hundred because of that is madness (unless it's somebody elses cash)

my new dell just cost 4k

it does things a mac cant its that simple

I'd ****ing hope so for four grand.

@Cougar it's what the top end Macbook pro costs and that is before you have to buy things like an adaptor to connect it to an HDMI display....

The XPS is one of those machines that is very very good, got the I7 one for work and it's a blinding bit of tech (thinner and lighter than the mac I think too 😉 )

@Cougar it’s what the top end Macbook pro costs and that is before you have to buy things like an adaptor to connect it to an HDMI display….

Only if you want a 2TB SSD in it? It's a grand cheaper with a 256GB one!

Better to buy an XPS with the memory you want in it (at least for the XPS 13 ) and a small drive, then buy whatever Samsung 970 meets your needs.

Yeah but if your going to be doing anything other than posing down Costa then you will fill up 256gb fairly fast.... Shocker in top end machines costing a lot, like the mac chant goes if it lets me do my job well then....

Meh forget laptops.  An i3 desktop outperforms an i7 laptop by miles, even with the same ram, ssd etc.

For 600 squids you could get a cheap gaming pc and a 32 inch monitor.

Yeah but if your going to be doing anything other than posing down Costa then you will fill up 256gb fairly fast….

With what? I'm not arguing for macs here, I have a dell XPS 13 and it's brilliant (and stupidly powerful for a 13" laptop and still cheaper than a Macbook) but I'm still a way off having 256gb used on this. The thing (older) Macbooks have for them IMO is the keyboard, my work macbook is definitely the nicest laptop keyboard that I've used but that's not enough to make me want to pay for one.

my new dell just cost 4k

it does things a mac cant its that simple

My new MacBook Pro cost 2.5k and does things a PC can't it’s that simple.

My comment was more that buying the laptop and then buying the size of drive you want can be cheaper than getting Dell (and probably other manufacturers as well ) to provide it all in one hit.

That after seeing that a 1TB *fast* NVME drive can be had for €370.

My new MacBook Pro cost 2.5k and does things a PC can’t it’s that simple.

oooo go on what is it 😉

oooo go on what is it

(I’m loving the supersized emoji)

scrub through native 4K footage with a LUT/curve/tracked mask added without the need for proxies and with no dropped frames, rendering times are quicker than anything else.  Something you can’t do with premiere or resolve as they are so poorly optimised. FCPx flies because it is so well integrated with the hardwear, now you can add an external GPU via thunderbolt it will be even faster.

Also the cost cost thing is irrelevant for a lot of users, I flip mine every 3 years and what with a discount plus VAT off It costs about £350 a year to own. Considering I use it every day and it’s paid for very quickly by the first paid job of the year it would still be good value at twice the price. Bit of a vanity purchase though if all you do is spreadsheets or sit it cafes all day pretending to be creative.

as for the OP’s questions? Get a PC there must be price/feature combination to suit.

why would i need to pay for a mouse and keyboard?  arent they just laptops, the same as microsoft, so trackpad built in?

I often spend all day on mine at home so I have it connected to an external monitor, keyboard and mouse.  I'd like a Mac keyboard with the right keys drawn on the top but they are either cheap crap or £££ it seems.

MrSmith always comes on these threads to justify his Mac.. but most Mac owners are making vanity purchases.. or at least have been conned into thinking they are better.

or at least have been conned into thinking they are better.

*opens door, throws grenade*

Unix IS better

Unix IS better

For what?

Meh these threads are always the same, my OS and my hardware is betterer than yours. Good luck to ye all!  I like windows, I like Os X, I use both everyday, have done for 20 years! 🙂  It's all good.

I think the most interesting question regarding Macs is, how long will the keep making them and how long will they keep developing OS X? iOS and mobile devices profit dwarfs OS X and the desktops/laptop quite considerably and the mac sales are reducing at a fair rate(The general desktop/laptop market is shrinking too). I don't think it's inconceivable they'll just stop making them one day to fully concentrate on the mobile division.

Thoughts?

some stats.

Mac sales Q against Q down 13.8%, Overall PC sales (mac and windows)sales down 5.7%. So mac's are down quite considerably on comparison. And i think apple will probably be ruthless in letting it go at some point, there's only so long they'll let that kinda decline happen. PCs/Windows are a larger market and reducing less quickly, plus the diversity there means they'll be about a lot longer.

Guess there is also the question, will the newer models and future releases bolster these numbers? If not, I don't particularly see a long future for OS X.

https://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/3474218

I think the most interesting question regarding Macs is, how long will the keep making them and how long will they keep developing OS X?

Interesting question.  OSX feels hugely under-developed to me.  It doesn't appear much more than a fancy well polished Linux distro.

Apple sell 20million OS X computers a year, I’m sure I’ll be able to pick a couple of the outgoing models second hand as spares should they stop making them. Can’t think why they would though?

-13.9%. you do understand capitalism and the need for growth?

I'm suggesting PCs and Laptops, from all vendors will disappear eventually, I'm suggesting apple will jump first long before the rest.

I think the most interesting question regarding Macs is, how long will the keep making them and how long will they keep developing OS X?

man that would bugger the deposit/residual scene hopefully the VW scene doesn't fall over at the same time

I don't even understand that comment mike! 😆

lol the talk of Macs and VW's having residuals is a good deposit scheme, it only pays off when people are willing to overpay for a name/nrand if the arse falls out of the market (see recession) then the disposable income to buy a mac and a VW goes overnight and the deposit with it.

ahhh, cheers! Was the VW bit that threw me! 😆

OSX feels hugely under-developed to me.  It doesn’t appear much more than a fancy well polished Linux distro.

It essentially is, but that's never really been it's raison d'etre.

The whole point of the Apple infrastructure is interoperability.  Because Apple controls every aspect of the hardware and software, they're in a pretty unique position to ensure that it all Just Works.  Your Apple TV works with your Mac works with your iPhone works with your iPad because they've no concerns about third party shite breaking their ecosystem.  This is both their biggest strength and their biggest weakness; if your house is an Apple shop then you'll never go wrong, but you're tied into the Apple way.

The Windows world, the Linux world, the Android world all by contrast are heterogeneous.  They all have to cope with all manner of third party shite which might turn up.  Again, biggest strength and biggest weakness, you'd got a lot more flexibility and freedom of choice but at the cost that making things work together might be a bit of effort.  "IBM clones" are how PCs gained world dominance, but the price paid was high as anyone who remembers the early days of setting IRQ jumpers and ring zero printer drivers will tell you.  You're an Android developer you've got to worry about several hundred different devices, you're an iDevice developer you're concerned with about 6.

And as we've said, one is not necessarily better than the other, it's just different.  What's right for me might not be right for you (a concept alien to fanboys), but that's ok.  Choice is good.

-13.9%. you do understand capitalism and the need for growth?

I’m suggesting PCs and Laptops, from all vendors will disappear eventually, I’m suggesting apple will jump first long before the rest.

I think ill I’ll be dead by then, or global warming, WWIII or something will kill us all off first.

that or mobiles will be so powerful that I can work wirelessly with a large monitor and Wacom tablet and carry on without a laptop.

  Your Apple TV works with your Mac works with your iPhone works with your iPad because they’ve no concerns about third party shite breaking their ecosystem.  This is both their biggest strength and their biggest weakness; if your house is an Apple shop then you’ll never go wrong, but you’re tied into the Apple way.

Yeah the rest of the world is there, you just missed it, I can bounce my video files from windows to my £200 JVC tv, I can send any tab from a browser to a chromecast, google drive and dropbox mean we can have anything anywhere. While you can fawn over facetime everyone else released a product that worked on every platform. The sandbox is dead, they buy in is overrated, you can get is all from anyone who shares these days.

I think ill I’ll be dead by then, or global warming, WWIII or something will kill us all off first.

that or mobiles will be so powerful that I can work wirelessly with a large monitor and Wacom tablet and carry on without a laptop.

Well that is the question, is the "work" market important to apple long term?

I do get the vision about working differently too, that'll happen, dunno if apple will be interested though. The consumer market is much much larger.

Choice is good.

It is. Apple have occupied a big market niche and done it well, which is fine.

Fanbois on the other hand, they are annoying 🙂

Well that is the question, is the “work” market important to apple long term?

They seem to be giving large discounts to companies to get more Macs in the hands of more people.  So perhaps.

why would i need to pay for a mouse and keyboard?  arent they just laptops, the same as microsoft, so trackpad built in?

A laptop is designed for convenience. It's not very ergonomic or good for your health if working on one 8 hours a day.

Mouse and keyboard help you maintain a comfortable posture. Personally, I have my Macbook setup as a desktop with external monitors. It's only used as a laptop when I'm out and about.

MrSmith always comes on these threads to justify his Mac.. but most Mac owners are making vanity purchases.. or at least have been conned into thinking they are better.

And i I usually say to buy a PC.

What a lot of people on here seem to forget is that not everyone is an IT tech head or they have no interest in fiddling or trying to save a few £s by spending time doing that fiddling of building a computer.

I could probably save a few £s buying a pc but that would be wiped out by the time spent learning a whole new computer OS and it’s foibles.

That said I have still had to use terminal or delete drivers and go back to an earlier version because something is broken, I lose about a day’s productivity a year due mostly to adobe and their software updates.

Apple are smart because they know that if you buy one product then you are probably going to buy another phone/tablet to go with it and they have that integration thing sorted.

plus they are cool (well the yoot think they are), nobody ever willingly stuck a Dell or Microsoft sticker on anything unless they were a nerd with poor social skills.

The latest MacBook keyboards are mechanically suspect. The 'butterfly' thin ones are susceptible to thinks jamming under the keys and breaking. They are quite lightweight though compared to the last one I had.

The latest MacBook keyboards are mechanically suspect. The ‘butterfly’ thin ones are susceptible to thinks jamming under the keys and breaking. They are quite lightweight though compared to the last one I had.

They will fix it for free if it's broken. If you've already paid for a repair, they will give you your money back.

https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/

Personally, with the blurring of tablets and laptops, I'd go for a reconditioned MS Surface now. Nice hardware, well ahead of iPad pro, and smaller footprint than a laptop. As for Windows vs. Mac, I've had better longevity from Windows, but it's moot. W10 is a fine OS.

The latest MacBook keyboards are mechanically suspect

the keyboard on mine was fixed

dont get me wrong they're fantastic for web browsing but when the keyboard breaks they're not even a useful paperweight

the keyboard on mine was fixed

dont get me wrong they’re fantastic for web browsing but when the keyboard breaks they’re not even a useful paperweight

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Well it's nice they've acknowledged it, but let's hope they've actually fixed the underlying issue this time.

Unlike with my iBook and Macbook and my Dad's Macbook Pro where the design was fundamentally flawed, they replace the parts a couple of times then end the repair programme and you're left with an iBrick Pro