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I don’t suppose I will get much sympathy here, but I do hope to get a fellow landlord’s insight here.
I have given my tenants a 6 month notice (it was actually 8 with verbal warning and email) of end of tenancy, all in line with Scottish Government system and Covid related protections for tenants
With two weeks to go, and with a lack of social housing or private rented housing, they are facing ‘homelessness’*. Or, go with the council offer of a temporary house 30 miles away meaning a long commute to the child’s nursery and employment.
Note that local the authority has been moving in families from a different authority 60 miles south, into 3x homes my tenants had hoped they might occupy.
Last week I had sent one more ‘these folk might be homeless, they have agreed to leave by x date’ email to the council housing officer.
The housing officer response has been to tell my tenants to not leave on the specified date, and to trigger a legal process through the Covid Housing Tenancy Review Panel, which will take three months minimum. They also suggest they leave the day before eviction, so not being liable for any legal costs. This has been done twice in zoom calls.
The council have emailed me to say the tenants don’t have to leave on the specified date.
This buys the council three more months to find them a place.
Leaving me with three months unpaid rent, legal costs and a lost house sale.
Whilst factually and legally correct, surely a local authority cannot be advising housing tenants to rely on weaknesses in a process/emergency Covid system and basically defraud a landlord is rather immoral…?
I am tempted to go to local Councillor and MSP and ask if they are comfortable with the system being used this way.
I also need to work out a comprimise.
Yours MrB*st*rd Landlord
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*for the record, they won’t be on the street. I am not that heartless.
It's a difficult one, but for my sanity, I'd explain the situation to your buyer and agree an extension of paid rent with your tenants. The market is strong and will stay so until interest rates rise significantly, which isn't going to be any time soon IMHO.
Sounds shit.
I haven't really but if they're still living there surely you get the rent.
Can you flog them the house at all?
I suggest you watch a few episodes of "Evil Landlord, Nightmare Tenant" (or whatever it was called) on Channel five. There were lots of bits where the council won't put people on the list for emergency housing unless and until they are made homeless. Some people were all packed and waiting for the Bailiffs with a taxi booked to the housing office. This situation is not of your making and the council are delaying to save themselves work which will cost you more.
To me that feels like the tenants are crossing a line.
I'd wait for them to leave the house the day after their agreed exit date and change the locks.
Can you flog them the house at all?
Tried that first - they had both been furloughed and at the time no mortgage company would give them the time of day.
@hels - that sums it up. Mexican stand off between myself and council housing it feels.
@yourguitarhearo - the tenants are being ace and working with me and council as best they can. I really, really feel for them - one was in tears on Friday as she felt so upset by council suggestions of doing the dirty on me. At the end of the day I am kicking them out after two years, through no fault of theirs, it is the council that is now engaging in this stand off and underhanded advice...
@duncancallum - without saying it, council is basically telling them to not pay the rent. Phrases such as 'you can save up for three months' and 'that is extra money for you over the few months, without a contract'...
Sounds absurd, and when they want a reference they'll be bad payers
I'd re visit the mortgage as lenders have become more reasonable currently.
The rental market Is non existent
Wheres the house btw?
Flat is Aberfeldy.
The issue of shortage of long term rentals is acute in the area - everything has either been sold privately, has tenants in it who need it or it is air bnb.
As part of this process I spoke to two local hotel / accommodation bosses - both of whom are desperate for staff accommodation, and who have had to use caravan's and their guest accommodation this year, and that is with a shortage of staff. Perhaps not a bad thing long term, but tied housing can be problematical too...
does the situation resolve itself for the tenant at the end of the Covid Housing Review Panel period? Presumably they are still "homeless" and council will say - well here's a temporary house 30 miles away?
Whilst factually and legally correct, surely a local authority cannot be advising housing tenants to rely on weaknesses in a process/emergency Covid system and basically defraud a landlord is rather immoral…?
Alternatively - why would an overstretched council not do everything it can to minimise the burden on taxpayers by keeping people in existing accommodation as long as possible? I agree it's shit for you. The good news is if you have to pull out the sale and then relist once the tenants have finally gone you'll find it sells quick. How desperate are you for the cash. The win-win would be if the tenant kept paying for 6 months and then bought it from you once their personal finances were more stable to get a mortgage (assuming that is even remotely possible - I've got people working for me in good jobs who find it impossible to save and so will never get a deposit even if a lender is willing to offer 95%). You would need legal advice though as if you waiting that long and they still haven't gone you could be back to step 1.
(Actually, the logical solution is for the council to buy it off you - but I presume there is no scheme for that!)
The problem of losing the sale is it costs me legal and sale fees...
A genuine question; is there no sort of Landlord Insurance that might cover being out of pocket in this, and similar, circumstances?
The problem of losing the sale is it costs me legal and sale fees…
Would you not be able to sue the tenants for costs incurred due to collapse of the sale?
Stupid question probably but do you really need to sell?
Sounds like you've got good tenants and selling is going to be problematic.
Wait till they leave and you have vacant possession and then sell?
Or, let them stay and stick it on the market with tenants in residence.
@scotroutes - that is a thought, I do have it so well go see what it covers or otherwise. I'd only read it with dodgy tenants eviction or house fire in mind...
@ThePilot - yes I do. Reluctant landlord anyway, the property is over an hour away, is needing renovation in next few years, and I need my capital out and off my own mortgage. I've been wanting to sell since the week of the Brexshit vote, but wasn't prepared to walk away from any capital. It's really not made us much money ever.
The only solution to this is to offer the tenants a settlement.
Look at your legal costs and loss of rent and see if you can offer the tenants a proportion of this as a cash settlement for them to surrender their tenancy at your convenience. This may well give them the cash they need to solve their housing issues and be cheaper for you than 3 months lost rent, legals and loss of sale.
I can say this after making a large loss by foolishly not considering the settlement idea.
Boring rant and background below:
English private and commercial landlord. I think most English and Welsh councils have stopped doing this, as its barbaric to the tenant and LL. Effectively it was the case that if the tenant leaves when complying with legal notice, (ie on the 6 months) then the council deem them to have made themselves intentionally homeless, and would not re-home them. To me this is like saying if you pay your loan on time then you have made yourself intentionally skint.
Anyway, you are screwed, you may want to get the lawyers in early..
Your only recourse is to make sure when the same council call you in the future asking for help to home poeple in need you tell them to get stuffed and explain why.
This is one of the reasons why landlords are so picky about tenants and why lower income people find it so hard to get rental props. Once a landlord has been stung by 3 months no rent and a couple of grand legal costs they damn well make sure their tenants are not likely to need council support.
However despite my costly experience in Crawley well over 15 years ago, it is now the case that the council are more sympathetic and no longer penalise tenants for complying with legal notices.
I've been pondering overnight.
I will continue to pragmatically work with the tenants and they will be leaving on the date a agreed. We've a good option that were should hear about today or tomorrow.
I am however waiting until they have left and will be complaining to the council. Thier behaviour is to council advantage, but overall the loss is to public purse, stress to tenants and landlords and a spurious use of a process designed to protect tenants, not advantage council budgets through near fraud.
Sorry - have the tenants been paying rent up to this point but the council is telling them "don't bother paying rent cos he can't kick you out anyway"?
In England, that would sound a lot like procuring a breach of contract, which is a tort. The unpaid rent would be the loss for which you could sue the council. However, you would need a real Scottish lawyer to tell you if this stuff is relevant to your position - and it probably doesn't sort your problem in the next few months anyway.
All the same - the bloody government shouldn't be going around telling people to ignore their legal obligations (if that's what's happening).
Good call Matt
I will continue to pragmatically work with the tenants and they will be leaving on the date a agreed. We’ve a good option that were should hear about today or tomorrow.
Ahh I missed this, well done for keeping it sweet with them.
I am however waiting until they have left and will be complaining to the council. Thier behaviour is to council advantage, but overall the loss is to public purse, stress to tenants and landlords and a spurious use of a process designed to protect tenants, not advantage council budgets through near fraud.
I tried this tack and was told tough shit, we are the council and can do what we like.
I have a similar story but do have a suggestion in the middle of the story.
Thier behaviour is to council advantage, but overall the loss is to public purse, stress to tenants and landlords and a spurious use of a process designed to protect tenants, not advantage council budgets through near fraud.
Good luck with that. I had a similar situation to you in England. I was similar to yourself where by I wouldn't kick them out on the street. Some stress for me but orders of magnitude for the tenants. In the end the tenant went on a rant on a local facebook group and it turned out there was a landlord with a property about 500m away. Bigger house as well so better as the house was over occupied as their family grew.
My tenants issue was that despite having never missed a payment, being good at managing their money, they had 5 kids and one average paying job so where not appealing to letting agents. The only way they got another house was though personal recommendation in essence.
My suggestion would be see if you can do similar. Hunt around on facebook and local shops etc, maybe pace an advert in a few asking for landlord. Offer a reference and for them to inspect how the tenant kept the property.
Letting agents have such high requirements to rent though them its impossible for many foke. I understand why on one hand as there are plenty of chancers out there but plenty of people who won't pass the affordability checks. Non scientific but over the years I have had two tenants that technically failed letting agent checks who have been brilliant and two who had passed. The two who who "Failed" where much better to deal with, more reasonable reported issues better etc. Big failure in the system imo.
I am tempted to go to local Councillor and MSP and ask if they are comfortable with the system being used this way.
Most councils have neither any money or enough housing stock. It's shit for you, but I can see why they'd sail as close to their legal duties (and sometimes over them) as they can manage for as long as they can manage.
Some progress made here in England:
https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/housing-law/397-housing-news/46778-ombudsman-upholds-complaint-by-landlord-over-council-advising-tenants-to-stay-in-property-after-possession-order
Thank you, that is an interesting precedent.
Sadly English law...
An update.
My tenants moved out yesterday, I collect keys tonight. Good news.
Yesterday afternoon they received a council house offer, in the local village. Really good news.
Tenant also received more advice over the last two weeks about not moving out and maximising the time they could before I had to bring a appeals panel/legal case. This has been verbally to them on zoom meetings, and council staff refused the meeting to be recorded and didn't respond to email asking for clarification about thier advice.
I've now got two emails telling me that the tenant could stay longer, and that this would be then up to me to trigger the appeals panel/legal recourse.
I'm going to write a letter to council staff and councillors asking if they feel this advice over triggering appeals panel and legal process is fair and appropriate for a local authority. If the boot was on the other foot....
Glad its worked out for you and them and the council are behaving awfully here.
Another update:
Our sale goes through on Wednesday, missives exchanged though. *crosses fingers*
It transpires the new accommodation for my old tenants has been empty for 9 months. It is owned and managed by the council themselves. It now needs a refresh (paint and carpets) which will take a few more weeks. My tenant is a decorator for the council and has offered to paint it himself in an evening for free - but has been refused.
So, the council threw multiple people, meetings and resources, including charitable trusts staff time locally, into trying two thwart my tenants from leaving as was my right to request. Meanwhile the ideal property lies a couple of hundred metres away, un-occupied and no urgency to prepare it for tenants who really need it...My tenants are now faced with two moving costs and more stress as they wait in a borrowed caravan for a few weeks.
I couldn't make it up....
@matt_outandabout you have every right to be angry and fire off a load of strongly worded letters / emails, I'd advise you to just move on; you are not going to change behaviours within PKC or extract an explanation or apology.
Life is too short.
A fair point.
As of Wednesday and the place sold, i need to pour a nice drink and forget about landlording for ever...