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that a hero was in fact just another cheat rather than awesome and superhuman.
He was awesome. And superhuman. I still love him.
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Its the same stw characters. Do you shout at the sky sometimes?
So you are [both] left to keep returning to the thread to post ever more desperate ad hominems ......TRAGIC
Bumpty Glitch thingy
^^^^^ Oh the ironing..... 😆
Ah a third ad hominem poster
Brilliant a few more and the evidence will be overwhelming
It was a great story. A man that fought back from deaths door and beat cancer. A disease which affects so many. Not only did he come back from that, but he then went on to become One of the most successful sportsmen in history. A story that bought hope to many people who have suffered or had someone close to them suffer from cancer.
Unfortunately as we often hear on here. If something is too good to be true then it generally is.
Froomes comment says it all.
It would have been more helpful if you had said what his comments were 💡
That Paul Kimmage comes across as a bit of a fruit cake.
The man who would never give up ... gave up
Gotta be a t-shirt in there
Probably been said before on this rather long thread.
Surely this is a battle between UCI and USADA for control of the sport and Lance is just an easy target for an organisation that wants to **** over our sport.
Sad day, but I can understand his decision, USADA are obviously not going to give up until they've ruined him anyway and wrested control from UCI.
Lance is just an easy target
If that's your idea of an easy target then I'd like to see a tough nut.
Froomes comment says it all.
British Tour de France runner-up Chris Froome said the situation has added to cycling's "negative image".
How incredibly insightful.
Surely this is a battle between UCI and USADA for control of the sport and Lance is just an easy target for an organisation that wants to **** over our sport.Sad day, but I can understand his decision, USADA are obviously not going to give up until they've ruined him anyway and wrested control from UCI.
What a strange view - USADA (US Anti-Doping Agency) can not take over world cycling in the same way that the UK ADA could not take over the European Golf Tour.
Anti-doping agencies do a number of things but one thing they do not do is take over or run individual sports.
If only hora could apply himself to road racing with the commitment that he defends lance...7 TDFs no problem.
Surely this is a battle between UCI and USADA for control of the sport and Lance is just an easy target for an organisation that wants to **** over our sport.
So they both want to take over the sport and ruin it?
Sad day, but I can understand his decision, USADA are obviously not going to give up until they've ruined him anyway and wrested control from UCI
Is this the UCI who allegedly overlooked a positive test result?
USADA - there is a clue in the US bit is an American based Olympic and US Congress recognised authority enforcing doping regs/testing and eforcement. It does not run any sport and has no interest in doing so.
yes folk have made points like this to defend LA but there is not that much substance to them .
he cheated and some dont want to accept this due to what muggomagic described so eloquently
"USADA strives to preserve the integrity of clean sport in the U.S., and to diligently work toward creating a level playing field for all athletes. At all levels, and particularly the next generation, competitors must have the confidence that their natural ability and hard work are protected, and the conviction that it's possible to compete at the highest echelon without the use of performance-enhancing drugs." Travis Tygart, USADA Chief Executive Officer"While USADA concentrates on the primary focus areas of testing, results management, research and education, it understands that healthy and collaborative interactions with athletes, the USOC, national governing bodies, international federations, other national anti-doping agencies, and WADA are critical to our success in furthering the anti-doping movement." – Tygart
Hora [ cheers for link] it is negative to the sport to the casual observer as , the majority of, seasoned watchers have known for years that everyone cheated in those days. Yes the sport would look better if everyone was clean and no one had cheated it also looks better when it catches all the cheats.
This has been a long long time coming, but at last there seems to be progress on the doping (in cycling anyway)-- now there is less reason to dope and more to stay clean, the doper is going to be ever more noticeable, and so the incentive to dope will only be for the desperate, they will be marginalised, as opposed to being the mainstream only a few years ago.
Paul Kimmage has been a crusader against doping for nearly 20 years, he was ostracised from pro-cycling for his troubles, he called armstrong a doper when it was not fashionable, now at last the next generation of cyclists will be able to race without the pressure of doping.
Wonder if any other sports will be as rigorous in looking at their 'dark' side ? anyone for golf..........
This ^^, absolutely...
Has to be a very, very good day for cycling - in the long term.
Painful in the short term, for sure, but a good time to say "out with the old"
ETA, Froome has said nothing specific about LA. Deliberately vague, IMO. Bad day for cycling, because of the bad press; or bad day for cycling because of the way LA treated ? He just doesn't say ( in that quote)
Given that Froome is in a race now with a whole bunch of known dopers and cheats, in country that does as little as possible to stop doping in sport and that is supported politically, Froome's best actions would be to be less than specific. Also given that we are relying on others to report what he said I'll reserve judgement on what is reported from anyone about this issue.
Given that some here seem pleased that LA has got what he deserved, perhaps instead of acting the bully that was/is LA give those that are gutted, maybe deluded or still want to find a reason to believe a bit of slack. There is just loads of bad shit all around this so lets not add more negative stuff here. I really sort of knew he was not what he seemed but at times I wanted to believe. What a bloody mess.
USADA's ban is working well then, Armstrong came 2nd in a mountain bike race today and donations are up by 20% on Lance's website....brilliant, well done USADA you've turned the guy into a martyr.
I walked away from club cycling many years ago. My son wont do any club races. Its full of hypocrites and self serving pompous ****ers. Any sniff of organised mtb groups I bomb burst away.
Road cycling (to me) is politics/hierachy first, cycling second so it will always be corrupt.
There will top level dopers out there now. You know it.
Do you think MTBers don't dope?
Do you think MTBers don't dope?
I know a few who do.
They don't compete though.
Do you think MTBers don't dope?
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And then...
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Armstrong came 2nd in a mountain bike race today and donations are up by 20% on Lance's website
That makes me sad
USADA's ban is working well then, Armstrong came 2nd in a mountain bike race today and donations are up by 20% on Lance's website....brilliant
Sorry to selectivly quote you, but whatever you think of LA an increase in funds to a cancer charity wich has helped thousands is brilliant.
^^ was in the US, so don't be suprised in the land of the free.......
It is a cancer Awareness org-- note the name ---
stevewhyte - Member
That Paul Kimmage comes across as a bit of a fruit cake.
I would expect 20 years as a lone voice against some powerful groups has to make you a little dogmatic - from all I have read and heard, I like him,
Giving to cancer charities is fantastic. Didnt mean to sound flippant
rudebwoy - Member
It is a cancer Awareness org-- note the name ---POSTED 7 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
So that not a worthy cause then.
Taxi25....I genuinely do think it's great, no sarcasm implied. Finding it amusing that USADA are using testimony from dopers themselves in order to shorten their own punishments to get Armstrong....also think it's a massive waste of time due to the era this occurred in, probably the most doped era.
I'm left thinking "what's the point?"....and the wider public seem to think so too.
It is part of the LA spin that they are all liars and was covered above but to note not all of the witness names are know however the evidence includes
His ex masseuse during the cortisone saddle sore fail period- not a drug cheat
The current head of the Swiss doping who will testify he tested positive for EPO- not a drug cheat
His biological passport
It is inaccurate LA PR spin and it seems to be working.
[i]So that not a worthy cause then.
Livestrong-- is a front org for armstrong's PR machine, don't be fooled by its spiel, it gives very little to research, sufferers etc, the clue is in the name-- Awareness, delve a little into his track record, its all about HIM, the super hero, --- or arrogant,bullying, fraud- those seem to be the two options, he's had his time in the sun, the chickens are coming home, time to fess up
He was awesome. And superhuman.
...and never sold anybody a dodgy set of brakes. You can almost forgive the drug taking and hypocrisy for that.
So that not a worthy cause then.
There are far better causes to give your money to. If donations to charities which actually fund cancer research were up I might be a little more impressed.
I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours
I presume he's at least a little self-aware, his team-mates were the ones going to stand up in court and testify against him (and may well still do so in the Bruyneel case), everybody else in the peleton knew what was going on. To be fair, that's quite an accurate statement... except that we're all now really confused about who won those Tours - I think it's generally agreed that in 2005 it was probably Cuddles.
I've been away. What's been going on?
Livestrong-- is a front org for armstrong's PR machine, don't be fooled by its spiel, it gives very little to research, sufferers etc, the clue is in the name-- Awareness, delve a little into his track record, its all about HIM, the super hero, --- or arrogant,bullying, fraud- those seem to be the two options, he's had his time in the sun, the chickens are coming home, time to fess up
Is there actually any evidence that this is the case?
Sorry rudebwoy; I can't just take your word from it.
I'd like a link to more than just an article written by someone who plainly doesn't like LA please.
They are VERY strong accusations IMHO. Actually fraud.
The greatape - well so far it's 75% of this forum believe LA is a liar and a bully with no place in modern sport. 25% would walk over hot coals to spend a night with said lair and bully no matter what witnesses will say
If I broke into a car and 10 people saw me and gave evidence I would be convicted. This doesnt seem to the deity we call Lance Armstrong and his drug taking
There is a theory that a sports scientist has written that I dare not mention as its a very sensitive subject but it involves the cancer he beat. I won't post the link because it's a very sticky subject that I refuse to be associated with (in case I offend someone)
I'm obliged
There's a fair number of articles regarding livestrong and what it spends it's money on they freely admit that it doesn't include actual cancer research but instead is about empowerment,funding of some (external) support organisations and large amounts of positive PR. I prefer to give my money to Cancer Research, individual hospices and charities/ organisations that do things that have an impact on those I know (or knew).
aye, all the stuff about LA coming out does make him sound like a thoroughly nasty bloke but have you got any links to [i]reputable[/i] sources rubbishing livestrong?Sorry rudebwoy; I can't just take your word from it.
http://www.livestrong.org/What-We-Do/Our-Approach/Where-the-Money-Goes
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6570
http://blog.livestrong.org/2012/03/05/livestrong-celebrates-four-star-rating-by-charity-navigator/
The US charity rating peeps think its very kosher indeed.
A rubbish journo seems to disagree though;
http://www.livestrong.org/What-We-Do/Our-Approach/Where-the-Money-Goes
Seems to be focussed on support and guidance rather than pure research. All have a place where cancer is concerned imho.
[quote=International Richard ]If I broke into a car and 10 people saw me and gave evidence I would be convicted.
Or, perhaps more accurately...
If 10 suspected car thieves were told they'd be immune from prosecution if they testified that I was a car thief.....
pretty sure informing to the "feds" and helping gain convictions has always gotten you a better "deal", not unique to LA prosecutions.If 10 suspected car thieves were told they'd be immune from prosecution if they testified that I was a car thief.
Also see post above about other none drug takers also witnesses.
druidh - Or, perhaps more accurately...
If 10 suspected car thieves were told they'd be immune from prosecution if they testified that I was a car thief.....
Your either not aware of the full story
Also see post above about other none drug takers also witnesses.
or you are being biased with your opinions
> If 10 suspected car thieves were told they'd be immune from prosecution if they testified that I was a car thief.....
This just shows how well the Armstrong camp's spin is working. How would you apply this, for instance, to Emma O'Reilly?
As with all cheats, they get their comeuppance, this one seems to be burying his head in the sand at the moment, this is the beginning of the end for LA and also the UCI who have connived with him, Kimmage and walsh should be lauded,all power to their pens!
there are going to be a lot of people offering and selling news to those who want it over the next few months. I reckon lots of stuff is going to come out of the woodwork, although I reckon some will also get buried.
As America’s leading independent charity evaluator, Charity Navigator works to advance a [b]more efficient and responsive philanthropic marketplace [/b]by evaluating the financial health and accountability and transparency of America’s largest charities. Charity Navigator guides intelligent giving by helping people give to charity with confidence.For 15 years, the Lance Armstrong Foundation has worked to improve the lives of people affected by cancer. Today we celebrate an honor that recognizes not only the important work we do, but the open and transparent way in which we do it. We couldn’t be more proud.
Thank you to all of our donors, to those that will donate today and in the future. Know that your donations go where they should- to provide direct services to cancer survivors, take on the sigma that prevents people from getting the care they need and empower communities to take action against the world’s leading cause of death.
My bold only in the US could they talk about a philanthropic marketplace
It is quite unclear [to me at least] what it actually does tbh
WTF does empower communities to take action against actually mean
I do believe they pay rather large sums for perosnal appearnaces by someone ...anyone care to guess at who?
They had a confeerence in Europe somewhere to raise cancer awareness IN EUROPE FFS that is like trying to raise awareness for religion or footbal who has not heard of it? The travel costs and theorganisation took quite a lot of money...guess who the guest speaker was and how much his expenses were.
IMHO LA has blurred the line deliberatedly btween himself [ the yellow bands for example] and the charity.
TBH if he cured cancer it is no reason to ovberlook the fact he was a drugs cheat
Druid - Lazy lazy troll, what with this and on the Repack rider thread you really are after one of the vacant BH troll slots 🙄
I do believe they pay rather large sums for perosnal appearnaces by someone ...anyone care to guess at who?
Come on JY. Let's have some evidence mate.
There's plenty showing that his charity is not only above board but actually transparent and effective, very very little to the contrary.
.guess who the guest speaker was and how much his expenses were.
How much were his expenses?
TBH if he cured cancer it is no reason to ovberlook the fact he was a drugs cheat
Maybe not but raising even $1m for good causes goes further than 10, no 20 tour wins in my book.
I dunno, I reckon I'd let him keep one of his TdFsTBH if he cured cancer it is no reason to ovberlook the fact he was a drugs cheat
Ironically, with hindsight it would probably have been better for everyone, inc LA, if he had just let himself get popped by the USADA for bio passport irregularities (or actuall evidence of EPO/transfusions) when he came out of retirement.
LA could have kept his TDF titles and his legacy by claiming he was an old man who resorted to doping only to reclaim past glories. He could even have gained by becoming an anti drugs advocate/refored cheater a la Millar and Vaughters.
The USADA would have got their man.
The public at large would have been happy with that story as it allowed them to keep their hero.
Cycling would benefit as it would demonstrate they were catching the cheaters.
Only a few knowlegable but bitter haters would have wanted more blood and stripping of titles won when everyone was on drugs.
And best of all we could all move on.
But no LA had to f it all up for everyone with his massive ego.
Maybe not but raising even $1m for good causes goes further than 10, no 20 tour wins in my book
aye LA loves to raise the cancer shield whenever anyone says anything bad about him
It's interesting to read how much some on here hate LA. They seem as blind as the defenders (of the LA) to any other view. LA really does attract oppsites forces in human nature. At the moment some of the LA supporters are coming across as better people not least because some still think there is good in LA.
Someone once said "the person in the room you hate the most is the one that's most like you". Can't help thinking that there is truth to that on here. Come now chaps lets play nice, some of the info and liks in this thread have been very informative.
what I hate about the whole debacle is that it takes soooo long to get to a result - is that the fault of Armstrong trying to buy himself time? or the fault of all those queuing up to pin something on him?
I just wish it would go away and leave cycling to be the great sport that it is.
what like the end scene in star wars where Luke appeals to Darths good nature with Hora and RM as Luke and Leia 😉At the moment some of the LA supporters are coming across as better people not least because some still think there is good in LA.
aye LA loves to raise the cancer shield whenever anyone says anything bad about him
Junkie, you're letting it all get to you - calm down, sup a beer, here's one, just for you
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😀
Best save it for LA I would have thought.
Funny but i dont hate LA whatever you or other thinks
What I dislike is the way an obvious cheat has got away with it [ his first tour win he failed the drugs test- always was a cheat, bullied others for se****ng out, sued for libel [ suppressing others from speaking out], and managed to convince enough folk that even now they defend the indefensible or just mention his chairty achievements rather than his cheating, year of lies and profiting from the myth and the deceit.
It is a genuine LA tactic to change things round from drug controversy to mention his chaorty work as it does lok distatesful to question this.
It is not he best charity I can think of but clearly it is admirable.
Ps he raised the shield on his statement
Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.
yes it does not look nice to say this about him- its why he doe sit he sure does PR well. He cheats , issues stroppy statement when he knows he will loose in court/cannot defend his lies anymore and the donations go up...He sure knows PR
Let go of this I reckon 😀 Its not like any of us get to change anything. Opinions have been stated and the [i]evidence[/i] has been considered.
I think it will be the UCI who will get to write/re-write the history of [i]le tour[/i].
[url=At the moment some of the LA supporters are coming across as better people not least because some still think there is good in LA.
e's more machine than man now twisted and evil[/url]
There is good in everyone brother junkyard, even you and Lance.
Shall we put the chocolate digestives away now?
When the evidence really starts to come out from USADA, that when things will really start to be sad.
what's the difference between a philanthropist and a rich guy with a dodgy past in need of some good PR?aye LA loves to raise the cancer shield whenever anyone says anything bad about him
Is it 7 TdF victories? 😛
I dont think LA is evil and I can see why he did it- both take the drugs and deny it.
Agreed lets leave it for when the UCI , WADA abd USUDA are arguing/bun fighting and I am sure all opinions will have moved massively by then.
I think it will be the UCI who will get to write/re-write the history of le tour.
Oh god I hope not. I was hoping that the fall out from this may lead to a clear out of old rubbish from the UCI and a new more honest regime in place for the future, although now I have written it down it does seem a somewhat fanciful hope.
"Oh god I hope not. I was hoping that the fall out from this may lead to a clear out of old rubbish from the UCI and a new more honest regime in place for the future, although now I have written it down it does seem a somewhat fanciful hope."
What a nice thought, it's international sport there are no honest people just degree's of corruption.
It is not he best charity I can think of but clearly it is admirable
How unfortunate then that he didn't ask you before starting the charity. Would you be banging on less if it was a charity that met with your full approval?
Would you be banging on less if it was a charity that met with your full approval?
Well it might lend a little more weight to the claim that all the drug taking was OK because of the charity work.
Really what is your point? I was charitable [see what I did there] about his charity which "promotes cancer" [ serioulsy read the blurb its not even clear from their mission aims what they do] when most folk think it actually funds cancer research and still you seem to want to have digs each post.
The charity is a side line as i said I could not care whether he cured cancer or pissed all his money up the wall on cheap whores and cocaine. The issue is he cheated to win the TdF and he has made a big thing about how he did it clean. This would be why i would want him to be caught. The charity gets raised by his supporters as the "shield" rather than mentioned by those who think he is a drug cheating fraudster.
Are you going to deny that LA uses it for self promotion as well?
Whatever your view why not just say it without trying to get an argument going with your insults.
bumpty clithc thingy
plenty of organisations with charitable status who don't do much for the benefit of society/mankind and if LA is going to bring it out as a defence "I'm not going to challenge the doping case but hey look at my charity work" then he's devaluing it himselfWould you be banging on less if it was a charity that met with your full approval?
Junkyard, everytime I glance at this thread you're there, on the "Lance is a druggy" tip. Why do you feel the need to spend so much time on this?
Why not just wait until the proof is out?
Well it might lend a little more weight to the claim that all the drug taking was OK because of the charity work.
I've not seen one post; here or anywhere or news story etc which has claimed or even suggested that the charity stuff makes up for the cheating. Some, including me think that raising money for charity is far more impressive than winning a bike race (particularly when pretty much every single person in the race is cheating).
I was at a MTB event on Sunday, I wore my Livestrong baseball hat, its still the most comfortable one I have (see a few arguements about Lance ago)I did feel that I may as well have a target on my head saying "mug" on it though.
I am pleased for Paul Kimmage, David Walsh and the other whistleblowers however sorry for cycling in general.
In all honesty I don't think Armstrong should be stripped of his titles, whats the point? They really cannot be certain that whoever they pass the win to was clean, in fact its almost certain they weren't.
Either declare its not worth adjusting the results but the medals were basically meaningless or just say all those Tour de France tours were all null and void.
I am very interested in what happens with Bruyneel and the UCI etc now though
I will still keep wearing my hat, it fits my head & hopefully some of the money my wife paid for it went to some bit of the foundation that did some good for somebody who deserves it
@ dezB
You mean like the big report by the doping agency that charged him with doping that he did not contest. Is that the sor tof thing I should wait for ..he is as guilty as anyone else who chooses to not defend themselves from lawfull charges
Why the time possibly because people keep posting things at/about me and addressing me by name 💡
it would be rude not to reply 😉
Why not just wait until the proof is out?
It is. By not disputing the charges, Lance has effectively admitted to them. That's the sort of proof which is good enough in any courtroom, so it will do for me. Anybody who thinks otherwise is either a fanboi, or has been taken in by the Lance spin.
It's very hard to determine what Livestrong actually does - I've just been looking on their website. I would argue though that this statement is pretty damn misleading, given that they don't actually get involved in trying to find a cure for cancer.
Since our inception, we have raised more than $470 million dollars for [b]the fight against cancer[/b]
The whole Kony saga should show that charity does not automatically = the best use of people's money. I'm sure Livestrong do some good things - but it's not difficult to see it mainly as a PR exercise for Lance Armstrong. He does quite shamelessly bring it up whenever questioned about anything he doesn't like - even when it has no relevance whatsoever.
In all honesty I don't think Armstrong should be stripped of his titles, whats the point? They really cannot be certain that whoever they pass the win to was clean, in fact its almost certain they weren't.
I agree, I think the best plan would be as someone suggested taking the idea from baseball where the results have a little asterisk next to them and a key explaining they are marred by cheating.