[Closed] Lance, latest have we done it yet.

[url= http://www.velominati.com/the-lexicon/#COTHO ]Kimmage, Millar ..... for UCI takeover![/url]

🙄 😆

2001!

in another thread (and probably somewhere here too) someone posted a link to an article by [url=In the Panel’s opinion, on the basis of the evidence adduced the presence of clenbuterol was more likely caused by the ingestion of a contaminated food supplement.]nicholas roche[/url]

If you look at all the riders recently who have been caught and admitted doping, some people are saying it's great that these riders are helping the sport. But saying, 'I'm sorry, I was doping from this year to that year but I'm not going to do it again and I'm cleaner than clean... I'm helping anti-doping because I talk to kids about it,' or whatever, that's a load of bull. That's not helping anti-doping.

Helping anti-doping is saying. 'Okay I doped. I got it from this doctor. These are the riders that I met in the waiting room. This is how it's done. These are the new products that are in the peloton that are not yet detectable. These are the products that we use to mask the ones that are detectable. This product does this, this product does that. This is how we beat the test.' That's helping anti-doping.

Cenbuterol has been used in some protein shakes etc, as a 'cutting' agent, it is supposed to promote lean muscle mass. However, I am pretty damn certain that Contraband certainly did not take clen knowingly, I mean, why the hell would he? It's not like he's got a weight problem, and it doesn't have any benefits to the cyclist, none that I'm aware of - if it does please enlighten me.

If I remember correctly it is usually used by asthmatics as it helps breathing and as you said, promotes lean muscle mass. So basically he could have used it earlier in the season for training to build up his strength and "open" his lungs whilst training and climbing. Given the effects are over a longer period usually, it's odd he was caught with it on that day.

So there's two possibilities:

1, Contaminated cow or supplements
2, Blood doping with blood taken earlier in the season

The first seems to be a problem for me as it would mean that the team just let him do what he wants during a TdF where he's a GC contender.

The first seems to be a problem for me as it would mean that the team just let him do what he wants during a TdF where he's a GC contender.

And for that matter, why don't the doctors test the blood that they a re-infusing to make sure that its clean? Especially in the case of Landis. Something about these cases never really rung true for me. It s not like the riders were taking out their own blood, storing it, then putting back in, they had help, and you'd like to think that the team doctors knew what they were doing.

Another disturbing report about the 'hologram hero' and John Kerry/Obama

http://reader.roopstigo.com/view/roopster/story/595#/chapter/2/

alex - well that would presume that for Contador for example, the team were helping him dope. Not sure the rest of the team's performance really backed that up though. From the Hamilton book and interviews though, it sounds like the whole Fuentes transfusion service was a little unprofessional at times but at least Hamilton took responsibility for personally checking the blood was his own (even if he got a bad bag once).

alex - well that would presume that for Contador for example, the team were helping him dope. Not sure the rest of the team's performance really backed that up though. From the Hamilton book and interviews though, it sounds like the whole Fuentes transfusion service was a little unprofessional at times but at least Hamilton took responsibility for personally checking the blood was his own (even if he got a bad bag once).

That's true, I forgot about the gory findings in his fridge. The reason Hamilton was so adamant that he didn't dope (or at least the doping of someone else's blood) was that he always checked the name on the bags, and never had someone elses. It must be tough for these doctors, what are they going to write on their cv's when they are applying for jobs at the local hospitals, now that the are banned from working in sport, I hope that they put some cash away for a rainy day.

Supposedly the whole thing with Ferrari was worth 30M euros. Decent pocket money.

And how do you stop a DR working in sport?....very hard, you could ban Ferrari from UCI events, ban him from being employed by teams but unless you strip his license (which a sports governing body will find hard to do) then there is nothing to stop him having a practice in Italy and seeing private patients.....who just happen to be cyclists.

Scardeypants....spot on, until a repentant doper is prepared to come forward and say: this is what we use now....you (UCI/WADA) cant test for it successfully because we do this to cover it up....him, him and him should be tested because they're well known for it....etc etc....then all the guys like Millar are doing is simply 'fessing up and then smiling for the camera and saying "drugs are bad kids, dont dope"....its good PR for them but they are still keeping quiet about their doped up colleagues in the peleton!

There was information being circulated at the time (no, I can't find the source...) that non-verified tests had found traces of plasticizer (used in blood bags) in there as well but because the tests weren't legally valid, they couldn't be used to prove he'd had a blood transfusion.

That is what I heard and the ashenden thought his biological passport showed clear si=gns of doping
I fear we have this generations equivalent of the LA failed test in 99 for cortisone and they still turned a blind ish eye to it all. Some of the statements from Spain were just ridiculous about how he was innocent and just downright denial like we got/get still with LA
The spanish cycling reaction was terrible whereby they just ignored the rules and did not ban him and he compete deven though we all knew what would happen to his results.
Terrible for cycling that this can still happen in the present

then all the guys like Millar are doing is simply 'fessing up and then smiling for the camera and saying "drugs are bad kids, dont dope"....its good PR for them but they are still keeping quiet about their doped up colleagues in the peleton!

To be fair to Millar, when he returned from his ban to find that his new team were all doping, he wrote to the head of the UCI (was Macquaid in the job at that time?) personally. He says he never received a reply.

one of the points that is missing from the contador case is the appearance of plasticizers in his blood, which was ignored by CAS - the only way they could have got into his blood stream was by using an older style of blood bag, no ifs or buts.

And again this year at the vuelta he looked like a normal rider until the rest day before the mountains and then suddenly turned into an 'amazing' rider with continued accelerations, the like of which we havent seen since.... oh... erm

The UCI are embarassed by this whole matter - they had the same info from landis and hamilton, only they chose not to actually do anything about it, except take the same stance as Lance and try and spin them off as unstable liers, unfortunately 2 agencies in the US did their job for them and now theyre backpedalling like mad, but to say one thing in a press conference and then to say something else in a written release makes McQuaid look like a lying hypocrite, there are some countries governing cycling bodies already looking to place a vote of no conifidence in the UCI as a result.

makes McQuaid look like a lying hypocrite,

er.... 😉

After originally hammering them in the press when they first made their statements, Pat even called Hamilton and Landis scumbags in the press conference this week. Hard to imagine that it creates an environment where whistleblowers come forward, particularly as a lot of those whistleblowers may well be doping themselves.

"I hope that people remember that the events being uncovered mostly occurred seven or more years ago, amongst a minority of those involved in a sport which has already changed and moved on"

Oh, what a shame, I had high hopes for Cadel. I'll add him to the list.

I think the constant line from the peloton that the sport has changed is one of the most depressing (and predictable) things about all this. It's the same thing we heard in 1999, among other occasions.

Remind me who won the Vuelta? And who's hot favourite for the TdF next year? Oh, and who won the Olympic road race?

Quite.

Hi Lance,
First of all, I want you to know I love you. You are my favorite cyclist of all time. I say this because you have been an American hero not just for all the American cyclists, but for me. I know you have to be struggling through the obsession of the media right now - in this case, like attracts like. They are feeding on it. What I see is that you have touched everyone and in a good way. I am sorry for what has happened the way it has happened. It is what it is and no matter how angry folks are right now, they all need to see you rise above this, which you can do. My hope is that you will help repair. I just want you to know in my heart I appreciate what you have done for cycling and for every single person affected by cancer. Thank you Lance. And may peace be in your heart.
Tinker

that's a prize enabler right there.

[img] [/img]

Added to the list. Gosh, they make it easy, don't they? Forget retrospective testing, just wait for them to open their mouths

I appreciate what you have done for cycling

Jesus, who'd have thought Tinker Juarez hated cycling so much

What I see is that you have touched everyone

Not another Jimmy Saville is he? *sorry*

I appreciate what you have done for cycling and for every single person affected by cancer.

Every single person affected by cancer? 😕

I started listening to the 5live podcast [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/5lspecials ]Peddlers - Cycling's Dirty Truth[/url] well worth a listen.

(you need to scroll down a bit for the download link)

However, I am pretty damn certain that Contraband certainly did not take clen knowingly, I mean, why the hell would he? It's not like he's got a weight problem, and it doesn't have any benefits to the cyclist, none that I'm aware of - if it does please enlighten me.

Hasn't got a weight problem you say? Please remind me of the important measure of how fast you can ride up a hill - it's power to XXX ratio, now what is that XXX? Meanwhile, excuse me for not being a pharmacologist (no idea if you are - please tell me I'm talking a load of tosh if so) and just getting this info off the web, but you yourself mention it promoting lean muscle mass, apparently it also "causes an increase in aerobic capacity, central nervous system stimulation, and an increase in blood pressure and oxygen transportation", all of which you might think were handy for cyclists.

There is also a suggestion that it's more potent than salbutomol, now I accept that has no proven performance benefits for non-asthmatics, but that doesn't seem to have stopped an awful lot of cyclists being registered as asthmatic in order to be allowed to take it for therapeutic purposes...

At the time of Berties positive test, someone posted a link to tests of European beef for traces of clean (apparently in days gone by it was widespread) I can't remember exact figures, but we're talking hundreds of thousands of samples taken with zero showing any traces of clenbuterol. That coupled with Berties name (or at least CONT) being written on blood bags in Puerto tells me all that I need to know. Surprised at the cuddles statement, but its hardly surprising to see Bertie trying to play down the LA evidence-i bet his lapping his chamois at the thoughtt that witness testimony can now see you banned!

There's also a [url= http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden ]huge interview with Ashenden on NYVeloCity about the CAS hearing for Contador[/url]. The summary is that because Contador was never chased for doing blood bags, it was outside the remit of CAS to assess so they ignored most of it and also then didn't take into account blood bags as a source of contamination.

here is also a suggestion that it's more potent than salbutomol, now I accept that has no proven performance benefits for non-asthmatics, but that doesn't seem to have stopped an awful lot of cyclists being registered as asthmatic in order to be allowed to take it for therapeutic purposes...

I can confirm it has no benefits 😥 or could it be that I am even slower than I thought!

Does Ashenden have a view on whether the positive test could have come from a pork pie? A lot of them northerners can ride up big hills and they all eat those crusty porky portions.

I see Greg Lemond has been calling out the chuckle twins at the UCI, will he be in court with Kimmage? Pat and Hein must starting to really feel the heat, mind you the that other crook at the IOC backs them as leading the fight against drugs.

I don't believe there's any record of illicit flights from Madrid to Leeds for "preparation" by El Pistolero.

I appreciate what you have done for cycling

Jesus, who'd have thought Tinker Juarez hated cycling so much

I think its a US thing, I have US cycling friends and to them Lance can do no wrong and is still a national hero, no matter what he did. Bit like David Miller and STW.

Julich and SKY end relationship.

Come on now Tinker is a very nice guy and has many skills and talents. He is limited in some areas though above the shoulders, the hair is a give away.

The reason plasticizers in the blood are allowed is because there are legitimate ways for it too get there, it's not uncommon for a rider to be put on a drip at the end of a hard race.

The way national bodies assume a position of innocence for their own athletes is a big problem, its no good pointing the finger at the Spanish over the bertie affair, the same has been done for British athletes.

Brailsford starting to wriggle?

"People will be given an opportunity - if they represent a risk to the team going forward - to talk about it, to see if we can reconcile that and support people. It's actually been a very constructive process."

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20072758 ]Here.[/url]

And we wonder why cycling has a credibility problem regarding doping?

its no good pointing the finger at the Spanish over the bertie affair, the same has been done for British athletes.

None spring to mind
i dont recall the PM saying someone was innocent or anything like this here ever.

Can you cite any actual example for British athletes
I doubt you will find any for cycling which is more relevant on this thread

Re cycling we need truth and reconciliation. if they get an automatic sack and removed from cycling it is hardly likely to lead to truth from folk

Many riders and people will have cheated we need to make sure it has stopped not that every last one of them is forced out of cycling [ clearly some should be]

And we wonder why cycling has a credibility problem regarding doping?

I think we've already worked out that it's pretty much impossible to staff any team with crew who have never ever been involved in doping in any way. It was just too endemic, too entrenched and the tentacles went right through, from riders all the way up to team managers.

So Sky's initial response of "sign this piece of paper - if you don't you're fired and if you lie, and we find out about it, you're fired" isn't constructuve, it gives no incentive to own up.

The best response is to say "we realise this took place, Sky are committed to a 100% clean approach and, regardless of a crew member's past misdemeanors, we will give them the chance to talk openly about it, confess, help the anti-doping movement and give them an environment where they can work without the need or opportunity for doping, rehabilitate them (if you want to use that turn of phrase).

The best advocates for anti-doping are ex-dopers (like Millar) in the same way that the best thing for youth rehabilitation centres is to have an ex con/ex druggie talking to them, telling them how crime messed up their life, not to do it. The thing about ex dopers - they know how they did it so they can ensure that the riders never have the werewithall to dope in the first place, even if they want to.

footflaps - Member

I think its a US thing, I have US cycling friends and to them Lance can do no wrong and is still a national hero, no matter what he did. Bit like David Miller and STW.

Boring troll is boring.

I think we've already worked out that it's pretty much impossible to staff any team with crew who have never ever been involved in doping in any way. It was just too endemic, too entrenched and the tentacles went right through, from riders all the way up to team managers.

Aye, but that's not my point. Maybe the initial statement a week or so back wasn't practical to implement (though there was nothing really preventing a clean broom approach imo, but I accept that I'm no expert on building a sport from the ground up). However,Joe Public reads one week that Sky has a zero tolerance, past and present approach to doping, then sees the following week that the stance shows signs of softening.

Now while we are used to this sort of thing in most walks of life, in a sport that has such a high profile for it's problems, backpedaling, even in the name of pragmatism, would seem to me to suggest a less than serious approach to problem solving. Akin to those the sport has seen in the past.

The reason plasticizers in the blood are allowed is because there are legitimate ways for it too get there, it's not uncommon for a rider to be put on a drip at the end of a hard race.

Illegal in pro cycling unless medial treatment requires it and then they need to leave the race. The basic rule is "no needles"

@vinnyeh: yep, fair point and I'm amazed that Sky (being like, a media company and all), didn't actually think it through.
Usual classic knee jerk response to bad news then realise that oh, that's not really practical.

I think we've already worked out that it's pretty much impossible to staff any team with crew who have never ever been involved in doping in any way. It was just too endemic, too entrenched and the tentacles went right through, from riders all the way up to team managers.

Absolute nonsense, it may be impossible to get untainted folk with experience of particular roles. In that case though, if any credibility is to be expected you HAVE to just go with inexperienced but untainted folk and rebuild from scratch.

Sorry if this has been linked before but does Mark Cavendish really believe or understand what he has said in [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20049387 ]This interview[/url]

Which sports do you think are cleaner?

F1?
Moto GP?

The absolute latest

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/armstrong-now-taking-mushrooms-2012101144612

shocking stuff

Woody, a similar situation from my youth to illustrate.

I was at one of them posh schools, innit. The school had a drug problem, nothing "seriuous", and almost certainly in line with any other school of similar size. The headmaster wanted to deal with it, so he did. He found people. He expelled them. He made it very, very public.

Of course, there were then the headlines, "Rich toffs in drugs shockah!" and the school was tainted with that reputation for a while. Was the school dirtier than others? Hell no. It just [i]actually did something about it![/i]

I see cycling in the same light. It has a problem, as do many other sports. Cycling's gone very public about it's problem, and therefore gets far more than a fair share of negative press. Much like my school did, while other schools of similar type were just quietly expelling their drug busts.

Much like my school did, while other schools of similar type were just quietly expelling their drug busts.

In that case, I'll compare my school to the UCI! The Head flatly refused to believe that nice posh children in his school could possibly be doing anything like that.

That all changed when a new Head came along.

Wellington, CrazyLegs? 😉

F1?
Moto GP?

Both require physical endurance that is enhanced by EPO, plus low body mass so clenbuterol type drugs would certainly help. During a race betablockers would help keep a driver calm under pressure.

Is either sport signed up to wada rules? do they have random in and out of season testing, the whereabouts system, biological passports?

It#s the naive belief that cycling is the bad boy in world sport, that is starting to irritate.

that can be

Berties name (or at least [b]CONT[/b]) being written on blood bags in Puerto

Flashy: not *that* posh!

Absolute nonsense, it may be impossible to get untainted folk with experience of particular roles. In that case though, if any credibility is to be expected you HAVE to just go with inexperienced but untainted folk and rebuild from scratch.

But who is teaching these inexperienced people? Dopers or ex dopers. And besides, you simply can't run a pro cycling team with a bunch of people off the street. You don't learn this stuff by reading a book, it comes from years and years of being in the thick of it, being a pro racer, 'reading' races.

While you're rebuilding your team from scratch, you're not winning anything, the sponsors walk away, and bang goes your team. That's why the problem is so endemic and why it needs not some PR friendly "zero tolerance" bullshit (which always comes back to bite you on the arse) but a proper top-down clean out, "truth and amnesty", reconciliation. Accept that people used to do that kind of thing. Rebuild the sport together through support, and a proper independent body. The UCI has for too long been in a position where it has to promote the sport, make it interesting and exciting while also policing it.

But who is teaching these inexperienced people? Dopers or ex dopers. And besides, you simply can't run a pro cycling team with a bunch of people off the street. You don't learn this stuff by reading a book, it comes from years and years of being in the thick of it, being a pro racer, 'reading' races.

From the outside that just sends the message, "OK, you doped, but we'll still let you make a living from the sport, so doping is ok to get your fame, your reputation, your titles, even if you get caught, you've still got a career." It also says, "we're a team where dopers work, where dopers are rewarded, because although we could take non dopers and do less well, we must win at all costs", and when you are willing to go that far, why would you not be doping today too?

There are plenty of clean former riders to choose from I'm sure but the question is do men who've had their best years in cycling stolen from them (dramatic phrase I know) really want to go back to the sport where dopers were accepted as the norm and clean riders were considered to be somehow less valuable (look at Bassons who was offered 5-10 times the salary if he doped).

As an aside, on the subject of riders supporting Armstrong, Marcel Kittel had this to say on twitter:

[quote=@marcelkittel]I feel SICK when I read that Contador, Sanchez & Indurain still support Armstrong. How does someone want to be credible by saying that?!

Well done that man. People like him, Greipel, Phinney are all reasons to feel positive about the future. There's a wave of riders coming through that simply abhor the idea of doping.

I was surprissed by Contador given he is the current LA [ best and a doper] you would have thought he would have STFU- I took it as a sign their is still a problem if he can say that openly tbh

When an unrepentant doper comes out in support of another unrepentant doper and feels safe doing so, there's a sign that something is wrong. Sadly, given he rides for Riis, the team is hardly going to stamp down on him either.

It's quite revealing to see the few prominent names sticking up for Armstrong, when everyone else is trying to run away as quickly as possible. I think there will be a few squeaky bums wondering if they can still rely on omerta to keep things quiet, or whether someone is going to spill the beans on them as part of the current confessional tidal wave.
I think Sky are taking a tough road, but fair play to them. It's another deterrent if doping could mean the end of your nice post race career in team support or management. They just need to be consistent, because they have flip flopped a wee bit on whether they will use people associated with doping or not.
It would be difficult, but not impossible to run a team with clean staff. Wiggins' performance coach came from swimming, I believe, so you can look outside the traditional cycling world (of course you have to make sure you are not just getting dopers from a different sport!). As for sponsors leaving; that cuts both ways. Rabobank have taken a commercial decision that the current model is not a good deal, so failure to really clean up could hurt teams just as much as trying to be squeaky clean, in the current climate.

[quote=Jim Ochowicz, owner Team BMC]"There's been so much said I don't even know how to keep up with it anymore. It was a difficult decision by those that had to make them and one that's going to live with us for a while yet, but I'm looking forward to the future,"

"I feel bad for him, I do," he added.

So we add BMC to the teams you have to be suspicious about.

I think there will be a few squeaky bums wondering if they can still rely on omerta to keep things quiet, or whether someone is going to spill the beans on them as part of the current confessional tidal wave.

Part of me wonders if that's the key. By getting it out there that bans without positive tests are "wrong" you wonder if these riders are getting ready to have the whistle blown on them and getting the defence in early.

Good article here by Bradley McGee:
http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycling/how-dopers-stole-the-best-years-of-my-career-20121026-28aif.html

It's a good article but I can't believe he's talking about his team being one of the ones leading the way to a cleaner sport when it's run by Riis and their lead rider is supporting Armstrong publicly. Doesn't diminish his experiences and what he's trying to do though, I just can't help but wish he was doing it elsewhere.

I have one simple rule – no doping. It's really not that difficult.

Shame though he seems genuine but he is in the wrong team to achieve that never mind rule three

3. Know the people around you. Be sure they will support you in success or failure and will never support unethical choices.

Just shows how close to Fubbar cycling actually is if he believes all that and then works for them

No re-allocation of titles then.

The ASO already said as much so there was no chance the UCI could change that.

uci have announced no reallocation of titles, suspension of the paul kimmage case and an external investigation into themselves

oh and the operation puerto case is just around the corner - lets see if bertie can explain away blood bags mark 'cont' that were found in his fridge - quick blood / dna test should settle that...

uci have announced no reallocation of titles, suspension of the paul kimmage case and an external investigation into themselves

Do you know if suspension means it's been binned or just put on hold until after the external investigation?

Edit: and the answer appears to be that it is on hold during the investigation but it isn't clear whether or not it will be restarted - which is crap for Kimmage as he will just be left on hold for longer

Orff with their heads

on hold following the investigation, this link is expanding as its coming out, should be full story now:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-management-committee-will-not-reallocate-armstrongs-tours

Suspended pending the inquiry. Poor Paul, being dicked around for even longer.

Suspended pending the inquiry. Poor Paul, being dicked around for even longer.

Yep. A cynical person might think that they are trying to take the heat off themselves and sit it out while leaving pressure on Kimmage.

Yup. The momentum of the defence fund has been simply amazing this week. It went up something like ten thousand dollars yesterday.

that was due in no small part to LeMond I think. If the investigation is done properly (and a lot of people will be keeping their eyes on them) then Hes not got a problem - be interesting to read LeMonds file of evidence too!

Saw yesterday that the danish cycling fed effectively asked mcquaid to push off...

Just tweeted by Paul K:

Paul Kimmage ?@PaulKimmage
How do I feel? I feel like Maximus as he prepared for battle.

Paul Kimmage ?@PaulKimmage
"On my signal, unleash hell."

Paul Kimmage ?@PaulKimmage
Hope to deliver that signal very soon.

🙂

Yup. The momentum of the defence fund has been simply amazing this week. It went up something like ten thousand dollars yesterday.

I thought it was 10 times that.

It's a great indication that the fans want a clean sport, will be interesting to see how that money is now redirected (assuming the case is dropped) to do some good, wish I had chipped in, may yet do so if it looks like it will do some good.

i hope kimmage gets to keep it. I despise the way that big organisations can put individuals lives on hold by assigning a few lawyers to the case and getting on with their own business.

From his twitter feed: "This conflict with the UCI may seem like a game, and a game I'm enjoying, but the truth is that it's destroying my life."

I meant it increased by 10k yesterday. It's up well over $80k total.

Just topped it up a tiny bit more with a second small contribution. It's still important.

Only the UCI could describe waiting a bit before deciding whether to carry on suing Kimmage as 'decisive action'.

I assume there's no way the Kimmage case will go to court now

They need to decide how to spend the money - either donate to some CREDIBLE testing/enforcement programme if they can find one outside of USADA or share it out between deserving indiviuals like Kimmage, the 2 women who grassed-up Lance and I guess a few others, riders who've been forced out etc

I'd definitely still support that as an option