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Nice selective quoting there aracer.
Wrecker - sure;y you a re either having a laugh, or haven't read the story at all.
Vilifying fellow riders. Threatening to ruin people's lives. Invoking his own life-threatening cancer as a defence against the very idea that he would put something dodgy into his body… He's done plenty to put him far and above (well, below) other riders.
apart from being a dickhead he's not done much that a great number of cyclists haven't, before and since.
We're not just talking about 'being a dickhead' though. I mean to me 'being a dickhead' is someone who, say, is a bit mouthy or full of themselves, or who never buys a round despite being minted, that kind of thing.
Systematic cheating to win millions of dollars, bullying and threatening and using your considerable power to ruin the careers/businesses of those who oppose you, raising the 'cancer shield' at every opportunity - goes a bit beyond 'being a dickhead' imo. You can choose not to believe that stuff of course.
Nice selective quoting there aracer.
I'm sorry - which bits of what you wrote should I have included in to change the context? I'll try again if you like...
Once more. I have no dog in this race, I don't care about Lance Armstrong, Bradley Wiggins, Contador or any other rider. I just find the sudden popularity of the LA hatefest unpalatable, when from what I can tell; apart from being a dickhead he's not done much that a great number of cyclists haven't, before and since.
Well if you ignore the hounding of Simeoni and Bassons (and Betsy Andreu etc.), being very much in charge of his team's doping programme, encouraging team-mates to dope and disenfranchising those who weren't willing to get with the programme, then yes you're probably right. All very unfair on poor old Lance.
[i]While Mr. Weisel and company have been consolidating their control of USA Cycling and shaping it to suit their interests, he has been less successful in fending off federal investigations of crooked dealings by his investment firm, Thomas Weisel Partners, which has now been forced to pay a $12.5 million fine following a lengthy investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission. So the world continues to turn and USAC members continue to allow Weisel to run their sport to suit his interests. At least for now.[/i]
http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/06/lance-armstrongs-business-links-a-flowchart-by-dimspace/
It's really, really, really not about the bike.
Systematic cheating to win millions of dollars, bullying and threatening and using your considerable power to ruin the careers/businesses of those who oppose you, raising the 'cancer shield' at every opportunity - goes a bit beyond 'being a dickhead' imo. You can choose not to believe that stuff of course.
Good points and the cheating is a given although that falls into this basket rather than the dickhead one;
he's not done much that a great number of cyclists haven't, before and since.
There's no doubt he's an aggressive bully but I find the rest of it a bit, well...word-of-mouth-ey.
[i]but I find the rest of it a bit, well...word-of-mouth-ey[/i].
Or as the rest of the world tends to call it, [i]eye-witness testimony[/i]...
Don't forget, a considerable amount of the evidence given to USADA was also proferred, seperately, to the Jeff Novitsky federal inquiry. This means the very real possibility of [i]going to jail for lying[/i], or as we call it, perjury.
There's no doubt he's an aggressive bully but I find the rest of it a bit, well...word-of-mouth-ey.
But short of him confessing (which he's shown no indication of wanting to do) how can you get away from eye witnesses blowing the whistle?
There's no doubt he's an aggressive bully but I find the rest of it a bit, well...word-of-mouth-ey.
Betsy Andreu had an answerphone message left saying 'I hope someone breaks a baseball bat over your head' after she revealed the infamous hospital story. This isn't word of mouth, the actual recording was handed over to investigators apparently. Her honesty has also cost her thousands in legal fees.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-10-11/news/34393425_1_betsy-andreu-usada-journalist-david-walsh
What evidence would convince you?
word-of-mouth-ey
"Word of mouthy" would be some bloke down the pub telling you that their mate's cousin is a water bottle holder for a pro cycling team and there are rumours LA is on the fiddle.
However for LA we have the highest available level of authority using 26 eyewitnesses each giving sworn testomony, under penalty of purjury, and significant physical evidence, including evidence of syntheic EPO in LAs blood using a sample taken from before the was a test available, that LA was a dirty doping cheat.
So in short its a little bit more robust that "word-of-mouth-ey".
So in short its a little bit more robust that "word-of-mouth-ey".
You need to read the thread buddy. Nobody is suggesting that LA is not a cheat.
Betsy Andreu had an answerphone message left saying 'I hope someone breaks a baseball bat over your head' after she revealed the infamous hospital story. This isn't word of mouth, the actual recording was handed over to investigators apparently. Her honesty has also cost her thousands in legal fees.
Not trying to make light of this but isn't this the behaviour of an aggressive bully or even a dickhead?
I call troll.
It's clear that wrecker either has no understanding of the issues, or has an understanding but is yanking the chain.
Live strong dude.
You need to read the thread buddy
Pot, this is kettle calling, what colour would you describe this text as?
Nobody is suggesting that LA is not a cheat.
But [b]you[/b] appear to be suggesting that some of the allegations made against him aren't true. Or if that's not the case, maybe you could explain to us exactly what you do mean by "I find the rest of it a bit, well...word-of-mouth-ey."
Not trying to make light of this but isn't this the behaviour of an aggressive bully or even a dickhead?
So what you're saying here is that all the facets of Armstrong's behaviour which makes him so much worse than the rest is covered by "dickhead"?
From the Oakley press release
When Lance joined our family many years ago, he was a symbol of possibility. We are deeply saddened by the outcome, but look forward with hope to athletes and teams of the future who will rekindle that inspiration by racing clean, fair and honest.
Ouch. Good luck with that
Well. You [u]are[/u] trying to make light of it!
It is clearly different to other riders, and rightly gets more attention. He has singlehandedly invalidated 7 years of TdF history, and tainted the sport forever. Millions of people bought the great story and took him to be the saviour of cycling following the absolutely dire Festina days. Turns out he was the opposite.
Not trying to make light of this but isn't this the behaviour of an aggressive bully or even a dickhead?
Well it's bit more than that I'd say, more criminal intimidation/gangster type behaviour.
So you're saying you believe that he's an arsehole (stronger word than dickhead?) but you don't believe he bullied other people into taking drugs? Why?
Well it's bit more than that I'd say, more criminal intimidation/gangster type behaviour.
Yeah, you're probably right there.
So you're saying you believe that he's an arsehole (stronger word than dickhead?) but you don't believe he bullied other people into taking drugs? Why?
Please correct me if I'm wrong Grum, but isn't everyone who's accused him of pushing drugs a convicted drugs cheat? Have most/all not been given a favorable deal from USADA?
If LArmstrong et al were doing something significant, rather than just pedalling a bike around different countries, all this might be worth arguing about.
😀
[i]Please correct me if I'm wrong Grum, but isn't everyone who's accused him of pushing drugs a convicted drugs cheat?[/i]
No they are not.
As you would know if you had read any of the evidence against him.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Grum, but isn't everyone who's accused him of pushing drugs a convicted drugs cheat? Have most/all not been given a favorable deal from USADA?
You are wrong of the 26 witnesses who testified against him, only 11 were riders.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Grum, but isn't everyone who's accused him of pushing drugs a convicted drugs cheat? Have most/all not been given a favorable deal from USADA?
Consider yourself corrected. 🙂
He has singlehandedly invalidated 7 years of TdF history
To be fair I have to find him not guilty of that charge. Not when they're having that much difficulty deciding who to award the wins to. Not when there was only one rider who stood on the podium with him who is generally acknowledged to be clean (well I suppose Andy Schleck also stood on a TdF podium with him, and I don't think he's been tainted yet).
OK, I take back singlehandedly.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Grum, but isn't everyone who's accused him of pushing drugs a convicted drugs cheat? Have most/all not been given a favorable deal from USADA?
Well if you didn't know that was incorrect, then clearly you've not actually read any of the reports about the USADA findings. Maybe you should go away and do a bit of reading before posting any more twaddle.
Consider yourself corrected.
Cheers, I didn't know which is why I asked.
Ah, well as I said I don't follow the cycling press only mainstream. I'm not a follower of road riding, and to be perfectly honest after the latest non-surprising cheating saga won't bother watching any TDF or televised stuff again. We could well be going through all this in 5 years time with the current crop! Is 5 years about how long it takes the tests to catch up with the cheats? longer?
Maybe you should go away and do a bit of reading before posting any more twaddle.
ah bugger off
glenp - MemberHe has singlehandedly invalidated 7 years of TdF history, and tainted the sport forever.
Now that has to be a joke, you will be telling me that LA is responsible for global warming and re runs of top gear on dave too.
Ask yourself if LA was not there would there still have been doping. It's hardly all his fault.
My guess is tennis and footie will be next, then distance running.
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/
Tennis even has the same doctors!
Ask yourself if LA was not there would there still have been doping. It's hardly all his fault.
Are you trolling? Really? Nobody is saying that is the case but when the bloke who wins it 7 times in a row is doping, it hardly says to everyone else that they should be racing for 2nd does it?
Of course Tennis has a steroid problem, look at how Martina Navratolova changed shape...
Please correct me if I'm wrong Grum, but isn't everyone who's accused him of pushing drugs a convicted drugs cheat? Have most/all not been given a favorable deal from USADA?
Another one correcting you on all the points you make in that statement.
You have got to be trolling or very ill informed.
All you say is what LA says in a press release it is no more persuavise and just as misleading, ill informed and distorted.
Can you just suggest they all take lie detector tests now?
Ah, well as I said I don't follow the cycling press only mainstream.
Well here's a mainstream media report which includes direct first-hand testimony from somebody who wasn't a rider, isn't a convicted drugs cheat and hasn't been offered a deal by USADA.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19957246
ah bugger off
😆 - the question you have to ask yourself is are you actually improving the signal to noise ratio of this thread?
stevewhyte - I already took that over-reach back. But you only read the posts that you want to read I guess.
Still - even if I phrased it in an ott fashion, I do believe he has tainted a long phase of TdF history, not only by doping, but by conspiring, bullying, threatening, arrogance and greed.
Some of the regular posters making utter fools of themselves on this thread is eyeopening. Reminds me of the residents of Springfield with pitchforks and torches.
Wrecker I agree with every word you have written.
Que a load of silly abuse 😆
Glenep forgive me not reading every one of the 52 pages of posts, you might understand why, appologies if I caused you any distress.
Well here's a mainstream media report which includes direct first-hand testimony from somebody who wasn't a rider, isn't a convicted drugs cheat and hasn't been offered a deal by USADA.
There's a few testimonies there. The only one which could be interpreted as remotely, possibly, slightly considerable is the masseuse IMHO. Even that's a bit coded.
And she's not even accused him of being a scarface type character.
No worries stevewhyte - odd that you managed to read one but not the other. I was only concerned about your twisted knickers.
[quote> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Lance_Armstrong
This got short, fast.
😆 Surely some of those remaining '08 onwards results are for events which come under USADA jurisdiction and should also be removed?
Emma O'Reilly was subject to the full legal force of Sir Lance, I'd be wary too.
Have you bothered to look up the Betsy Andreu story yet, or are you still idly trolling?
[quote=crikey > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Lance_Armstrong
This got short, fast.
Just looking at the Leadville 100 results. Dave Wiens won it 5 times in a row. The next two winners? Lance then Levi. Bet Dave is a bit pissed off 🙂
Some of the regular posters making utter fools of themselves on this thread is eyeopening. Reminds me of the residents of Springfield with pitchforks and torches.Wrecker I agree with every word you have written.
Would you describe yourself as a regular poster?
(well I suppose Andy Schleck also stood on a TdF podium with him, and I don't think he's been tainted yet).
The Schlecks have been caught making payments to one of the dodgy doctors, Fuentes I think but could have been Ferarri or something to do with Operation Puerto. Anyway they claimed they just paid for "training advice", who knows whether they were dropping off some blood while they received their advice.
Some of the regular posters making utter fools of themselves on this thread is eyeopening. Reminds me of the residents of Springfield with pitchforks and torches.Wrecker I agree with every word you have written
No need for abuse from us when you play the fool so well unaided
It looks like wrecker does not even agree with every word he has written. He accepts he writes from a position of ignorance as he neither follows road cycling nor has he read the actual report he is discussing. I cant see why you would praise this and criticise those providing the actual facts
Yes I would whats your point?
Jeez Junky you are obsessed, I thought TJ was the king of tenacity but it looks like you have taken his mantle. 😆
The only one which could be interpreted as remotely, possibly, slightly considerable is the masseuse IMHO. Even that's a bit coded.
That was just the first thing I found when I checked links from the current BBC story - you could always try doing a bit of your own research to find out more about her testimony, but I'm feeling generous today, so [url= http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Emma+O%27Reilly ]here's more about Emma O'Reilly[/url]
Have you considered deductive logic?
I was alaways TJ light but I have more shades of grey than just black and white
On a more positive note, Jimmy Engoulevent is now 137th in the 2004 Tour de France.
Deductive logic? You will have to explain that to me.
On this thread you are coming over as TJ heavy, that is in no way intended as an insult just my opinion which you have already called foolish.
Well, as someone here already pointed out (I think) it's interesting to see that times for Alpe d'Huez the are getting longer. That pretty much shows the effect that doping can have
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_ d'Huez#Fastest_Alpe_d.27Huez_ascents
Interestingly, the times are about 4% longer in the last couple of years, which is about the % increase in performance that they reckon doping gives.
Of course this is all internet based amateur research!
If you want to see the nuts & bolts of the case it's all laid out here:
[url= http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/ ]USADA [/url]
Can't see that this has been mentioned but the BBC live text says that SCA have said that they're pursuing him for the bonuses relating to 2004.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/20025271 (15.22 update)
On this thread you are coming over as TJ heavy
Is that a euphemism for "correct and not afraid of saying so in the face of lots of fools arguing with him"?
No its not aracer
Is that a euphemism for "correct and not afraid of saying so in the face of lots of fools arguing with him"?
That's a good one....
[quote=jfletch]The Schlecks have been caught making payments to one of the dodgy doctors, Fuentes I think but could have been Ferarri or something to do with Operation Puerto. Anyway they claimed they just paid for "training advice", who knows whether they were dropping off some blood while they received their advice.
There are two of them you know. What you mean is what follows:
[s]The[/s] Frank Schleck has[s]ve[/s] been caught making payments to one of the dodgy doctors, Fuentes I think but could have been Ferarri or something to do with Operation Puerto. Anyway [s]they[/s] he claimed [s]they[/s] he just paid for "training advice", who knows whether [s]they were[/s] he was dropping off some blood while [s]they[/s] he received [s]their[/s] his advice.
Much better. Also much more correct. I don't think anyone has ever come up with anything on Andy Schleck despite the fact his older brother seemed to have got away with the whole Fuentes thing. There's enough dopers around to drag extra people into it.
Can't see that this has been mentioned but the BBC live text says that SCA have said that they're pursuing him for the bonuses relating to 2004.
More here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20029617
No surprises there - this was the company who Lance took legal action against because they refused to pay his bonus. $2.5 million of the $7.5 million they're after is in legal fees etc. (a significant proportion is presumably Lance's own legal fees they paid previously)!
My mum has won as many Tours as Lance. Who'd a thought it?
My mum has won as many Tours as Lance. Who'd a thought it?
Blimey! your mum too??!!!!!
Small world
I don't think anyone has ever come up with anything on Andy Schleck despite the fact his older brother seemed to have got away with the whole Fuentes thing.
Oh good - I hadn't bothered to check, but did think he was the only other "clean" rider to have stood on a TdF podium with Lance (the other is mentioned above and is of course Fernando Escartin).
I would say that this is no longer about LA - this could be the biggest eye-opener in sport ever... So many people hate LA that their focus is just on him, but get your heads out of the sand.. Does anyone REALLY believe that Merckx, Indurain, etc. were 'clean' - you've got to be kidding me if you do... and you think cycling is in a bad way? This is well ingrained in sport as a whole... everyone wants the edge, the science of sport will always look for those 'edges' - even Joe Bloggs down the street is willing to take any kind of supplement so he just looks better than his mate at the gym - it will never end - there will always be a new 'drug' and substances that are legal now could well become illegal, but what's the point. Stop focusing on LA and take a long hard look at sport as a whole, things will come out that will make this look like a third rate news story when they start taking the lid off football etc. Cycling teams will come out with all sorts of claims about being anti drug, but at the end of the day a domestique, scared of losing his place in the team is always going to chance that 'edge'. As far as LA is concerned, he has a winning mentality and still maintains fitness... I can respect that, much more than some winners who then go on the piss for 6 months!
...also from that BBC sports news feed, David Millar is to speak to 5live at 17:15 - should be interesting.
I would enjoy seeing Carlos Sastre get more recognition if he was clean; I liked his attitude and approach.
Wow this is ridiculous, even when Pat 'USADA has no juristiction' McQuaid and Phil 'USADA bribed witnesses' Liggett have both agreed with the decision there are still people arguing? Fantastic.
Does anyone REALLY believe that Merckx, Indurain, etc. were 'clean' - you've got to be kidding me if you do
Well, no. They were both known dopers.
Anyhoo, I've read some of the links put up (thank you aracer) and it's confirmed that LA is a cheat (I knew this), a bit of a bastard (I knew this too).
It's not in any way confirmed that he was Mr Big in the doping world.
David Millar is to speak to 5live at 17:15
Oh good. Another drugs cheat.
spxxky - Member
Does anyone REALLY believe that Merckx, Indurain, etc. were 'clean'
If you're going to choose someone as a 'do you really believe xxxx was clean' then try and pick someone who didn't test positive!
I would enjoy seeing Carlos Sastre get more recognition if he was clean; I liked his attitude and approach.
3 time TdF winner apparently
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/if-not-armstrong-who-won-the-tour-de-france-or-tour-dutopia-from-1999-to-2005/
Oh christ are we going to go over the MILLAR GOOD - MILLAR BAD stuff again?
A[s]nother[/s] reformed drugs cheat.
🙄
Oh christ are we going to go over the MILLAR GOOD - MILLAR BAD stuff again?
Looks like it 😉
Haha... good one Lifer! The number of clean riders winning anything I believe you could count on the fingers of one hand
reformed? is that like cheap burgers?
Drug cheat is drug cheat surely 🙂
The number of clean riders winning anything I believe you could count on the fingers of one hand
Yeah, because the dopers were winning most of the races. Did you think that post through? 🙂
Has this been confirmed as yet or just Lance's wins voided?
at the risk of interrupting an interminable p1ssing contest and answering a post, Christian Prudhomme (Pres of ASO, organisers of TdeF) said last week that the tour wins would not be handed to another rider due to the taint on the era, and it is effectively a lost decade of the tour. Not sure Pat McQ can spare any time from back-covering and not explaining what Verbruggen did with Nike's $500K and LA's $100K donation to disagree with Prudhomme's decision.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/12/tour-de-france-lance-armstrong-prudhomme
Greg Lemond
http://media.newstalk.ie/podcast/67851/popup
On Lance Armstrong:
“At one point, I didn’t have a choice. I knew too much, let’s just say, from 2000 on. At first, after the Festina affair, the story that Armstrong had lost weight and come back, I bought into the story. But then I started hearing rumors. And the rumors were observations from people within the sport. In 2000 I heard some very disturbing stuff from somebody within the team. And I kind of backed away from cycling at that point. I knew I was in a zero, no-win situation.”
“In the months or years to come there will be a lot of stuff, probably, revealed. It’s not going to be just a black period for doping. … He’s destroyed people. If you go against him he tries to destroy you. He’s been trying that for 10 years with me.”
On reduced sanctions for riders who give up their suppliers:
“I’d much rather have a Floyd (Landis) come out and admit it, but give up his source, because somebody’s giving those drugs to somebody. And it’s usually a doctor, a team manager, somebody. And if they do that and it leads to an outing of those guys, I’m all for them racing within six months. Second time, you’re out. All these doctors — they’re the same ones that were doping riders in the Eighties and Nineties. They’re still there. So it’s those guys, and the people who aren’t willing to change that, who need to go.”
Atlaz, No, the best dopers were winning the races - everyone was doping!
I presume some of you lads will be chipping in a few quid?
Christian Prudhomme (Pres of ASO, organisers of TdeF) said last week that the tour wins would not be handed to another rider due to the taint on the era, and it is effectively a lost decade of the tour.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/prudhomme-this-era-must-be-remembered-as-an-era-without-winners
Although the UCI say it's up to them not ASO, and they'll decide on Friday (another example of the UCI never failing to miss an opportunity to do things in the wrong order)
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-confirms-lance-armstrongs-life-ban
I think the UCI can say what they want but if the ASO refuse to hand the jersey to whoever it is the UCI decides won, what can they do. I can't see how McQuaid could force Prudhomme to give Ulrich a yellow jersey, it's not like they can stop the race taking place.
All the UCI is doing is setting up another stupid argument they can't win (like the spat with USADA) and they'll eventually back down from.
Wait a minute! Maybe Pat is trying to bring the UCI down from the inside, it's the only rational way to look at it, after all could one person be this incompetent?
[quote http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20029617
I presume some of you lads will be chipping in a few quid?
What has amazed me is that the level of drug taking in not just cycling but ALL sports has taken so long to be properly brought into the open.I would say that this is no longer about LA - this could be the biggest eye-opener in sport ever
I was involved in a legal performance supplement developed by a former olympic champion (who shall remain nameless but has admitted use of drugs throughout his career) and it was a non-starter due to not being anywhere near 'strong' enough to interest anyone at a reasonable level, never mind 'professional' and this was 15 years ago!