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Away from cycling - Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Jason Giambi, Bill Romanowski and Barry Bonds.
All high profile US sports stars of the same era who were guilty of doping, yet returned no positive tests.
He has refused to let stored samples be tested for the drugs for some reason.
I'm not sure you can read anything into this really- why would he? He could argue that who knows what's happened to those samples or who's had access to them since he gave them?
Tom B - MemberWhich of Lance's teammates have ever tested positive then Hora?
I'm not Hora, but there was:
[b]Actual positive tests:[/b]
Tyler Hamilton
Floyd Landis
Roberto Heras
Peter Meinert Nielsen
Manuel Beltran
[b]Other incidents:[/b]
Pavel Padrnos (arrested in San Remo doping raids)
Benoit Joachim (nandralone - later aquitted on a technicality)
[b]Later admissions:[/b]
Frankie Andreu
Jonathan Vaughters
Let me get this straight. If he had to go to arbitration- The USADA can find Lance guilty on the basis of dopers giving evidence against him who are looking for a lesser sentance (but with an obvious personal axe to grind) with NO chemical proof at all?
You mean if i went to court and all they had was lots of witnesses [ some of whom had done a plea bargain] seeing me do the crime but no actual proof i could be found guily
HOW IS THAT FAIR 🙄
He could be stripped and classed as a doper even though he never failed a test? WTF.
HE has twice and why wont he let his stored samples be retested Sherlock.
One for cortisone with a backdated medical cert for saddle sores - not disputed by LA. Once and ot wa covered up and this is all allegged but LA did donate £100 K to UCI at the time the claim is made
How is that fair? First Cancer attacked him, then this. That man has had to fight most of his adult life and you wonder why he has an abrasive character to some?
OH FFS can we leave your bromance and hyperbole from the thread which was largely rational till you entered.
I cannot be asrsed diseecting the rest of you fanboy drivel. No one hates LA we just think he cheated.
I really wonder WTF you know about road racing as you only appear in threads to defend LA- not on TdF threads are you . As i say he has awesome appeal to non cyclists who put him on a pedestal due to his hype and their ignorance
Right, but the 10 men are his team mates.. So even if they are tainted by drug use (& are lying) then we are left with the situation with Lance's entire team, including his right hand man, are on drugs & he is the only one who isn't?
Well he hand picked them so not his fault and everyone knows that LA was not a control freak and quit elax about stuff so he could not possible have known. I think they had to cheat just to suck on his wheell ...that is it innit Hora?
He has refused to let stored samples be tested for the drugs for some reason.
I'm not sure you can read anything into this really- why would he? He could argue that who knows what's happened to those samples or who's had access to them since he gave them?
Well he could argue that but he could not prove it as they will have records of the storage. If you were clean and you knew a test existed for the drug everyone said you had taken why would you refuse as it would make all this go away for ever and leave some egg on many people’s faces including mine. Are you really suggesting LA is refusing the opportunity to have actual proof and is resisting the opportunity to smugly ram the evidence of his innocence down people throats ...You would need to be quite naive to think that he is refusing this opportunity.
FWIW he always says never failed a drug test not I ever cheated. As noted many athletes of that era cheated and were never caught both in other sports and in cycling - Pantani never failed a drug test in pro cycling either.
I think they had to cheat just to suck on his wheell ...that is it innit Hora?
Which comes back to that old argument....if they were ALL cheating - he was either on double-smack or ****ing better than everyone in those tours.
Wait what? Are you going from saying he didn't dope to he was the bestest of all the dopers?
If that's the case, he should admit it and we can all move on
They weren't all cheating though. Its pretty safe to say that Evans was clean back then...his 8th place one year would actually become first non subsequently banned rider if LA gets popped.
....and the old sage of 'they were all at it so he must have been better' is just a ridiculous arguement. Surely different people will react in different ways to doping, LA had the biggest budget in cycling so would have had the best program available too, plus some are willing to take more risks with their health with regards to doping than others.
he should admit it and we can all move on
To bitterly hating someone else?
I dont think 'smack' would enhance performance - except the rotting of the body from the inside - out.
Hora - you are arguing from ignorance again as your are assuming that everyone reacts the same to EPO. Unfortunately it has different affects on different people so he may have just be more enhanced by it that others.
It will remain an awesome achievement whether clean or dirty yes but that does not mean if everyone was clean he could still have done it.
I rather hope, like a monkey at a keyboard, if you keep it up you will get something right
EDIT:
To bitterly hating someone else?
Well i dont like drug cheats who have built an empire/cult of personality out of a life, is this a flaw? 🙄
I bow down to your cycling paperback semi-novel and cycling internet site Journalists reading.
On a more serious note, given the likely level of corruption that exists/ed within the UCI/US Cycling et al, surely News Corp were doing some of their own 'research' at the time? Has anyone asked Leveson?
Hora, am I meant to re order that post to make a coherent sentence?
To bitterly hating someone else?
Well, if that makes you feel better, all good. Because you have a polarised opinion that can't be shifted, don't assume the rest of us do. I don't hate him, I think that someone who has built his career on a lie deserves what comes to them and all the blame shifting, evasion and excuses in the world won't change that.
Landis and Hamilton doped, were caught and then went through increasingly lame attempts to avoid admitting what they did. They've now paid for what they did when they could have copped for it much earlier and possibly continued to have a career (like Millar for example). Lance has also avoided that opportunity so if there's proof, he's fair game.
Now, how about you answer my question about what a load of un-caught dopers would have to benefit from by confessing and implicating Lance?
You sir are a buffoon.
And you're a cockweasel. What of it?
Which of Lance's teammates have ever tested positive
Contador?
Which of Lance's teammates have ever tested positive
alex222 - Member
Contador?
Ha - good one. It's easy to forget.
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I think now would be good time to apologise for starting this thread.
It will remain an awesome achievement whether clean or dirty yes
No.
Mostly, you're speaking sense, mostly.
But I can't disagree more with this bit above. Being the best "cheat" is not an awesome achievement, more like the lowest of the low, representing everything that was wrong with the sport.
Take someone like Ben Johnson, the cheat.
OK, later it's discovered that he was far from the only one cheating in that race. He's still a cheat, no better.
But being the best cheat 7 times in a row is still impressive but of course I get your point and it is a good one. i suppose I was more trying to counter the point that i hate LA which I dont I just hate the way he has built an empire/legacy on this clean image which is unlikely to be true IMHO.
I feel sorry for Cadel - how many would he have won as he was clean.
None of Lance's teamates got caught.
A lot (almost all?) of Lance's ex team mates have either subsequently be caught, confessed or are rumoured to be witnesses in his trial.
His never tested positive BS is just that. A look back through the archives shows a lot of the people who have been caught have not been caught by positive tests. Operation Puerto, confesions, syringes found etc but not a whole heap of positive tests.
It seems naive to sugest he didn't dope.
But it isn't necessary to maintain this falacy to preserve his legacy. He was still the best bike rider of his generation. They were all doped up to the eyeballs and Lance still won, trying to claim he was clean is the only surefire way of destroying the legacy.
This argument is cyclic.
Why not wait for him to have been caught with actual evidence.
Post this. If he isn't found guilty - will the cynics put it to bed?
Which of Lance's teammates have ever tested positivealex222 - Member
Contador?Ha - good one. It's easy to forget.
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Probably depends why he is found not guilty. But probably not.If he isn't found guilty - will the cynics put it to bed?
Will the fanbois change their mantra if he is found guilty? Probably not.
But at least the rest of us will be able to move on with the cycling we can watch today.
eh alex222?
Will the fanbois change their mantra if he is found guilty
If he was found to have a positive test I will be crest-fallen.
He has a positive test Hora....at about the same time as he donated a lot of money to the UCI to help them to catch out dopers.
He has a positive test
I asked on a previous page for a source, no one has yet responded?
Personally, I'm more interested in the UCI's position in all this than I am in whether LA gets his comeuppance or not.
There are lots of rumours that if this gets to a hearing with witness testimony, the UCI is screwed. I'd like to see the back of the crony-ism and wheeler-dealer promotional tactics. Seeing that weasel give out the medals at the olympics was cringe-worthy.
Tyler Hamilton and apparently George Hincapie too have testified it (I'd guess that this will come out if LA decides to contest the doping charges) A link was posted to the source of the 100k Euro payment claim on Bike Radar a while back....I can't find it now if I'm honest-it may even have been a Livestrong fund transfer?
I'll admit that i've only skim read half this thread but those banging on about positive tests, have you heard of the biological passport? Positive tests are not needed to convict anyone of cheating, just ask Franco Pellozotti, and USADA say that the values they have from Lances BP from his 2010 come back are consistent with blood manipulation and they are that sure that it'll stand up that they are happy to go to arbitration, AND they have witnesses to testify to his doping in the TdF wining years.
If he was found to have a positive test I will be crest-fallen.
How about if a court finds that the evidence of the witnesses is compelling enough to find him guilty?
Oh and Lance paid 100k USD to the UCI so they could buy a blood testing machine. It was around the time when Hamilton says he tested positive.
That Telegraph piece gives an indication of what sort of storm is brewing for LA...
I cannot see any way he comes out of this "clean". Even if no personal use allegations stick, there is still the public money / use of drugs for the wider team that he led.
If accepted, I hope he goes to jail TBH. The drug tests / failures / use / denial is one thing. Some of the other aspects start to look very much like simple criminal corruption...
You gotta dance like Lance man, spinners are winners.
You gotta dance like Lance man, [u]spinners[/u] are winners.
love the irony - I presume you are not talking about "spin"
I can't believe Lance is doing Ironman.
eh alex222?
Sorry I thought you were suggesting that Contador can be forgotten as a fairly damming ex team mate.
For what is worth I think they should drop it the whole thing. Even if he did they never caught him at it so they were too slow; same goes for Contador's ban really.
I can believe you get an iron man about lance
Alex - obvious troll is obvious
I can't believe you wouldn't give a refund
Lance isn't doing Ironman, he's banned.
I can't believe that you've still got the nerve to post on this forum, but there we go.
same goes for Contador's ban really
They got a trace.
No matter how careful you are- competing for years you'll one day show a trace. Its a matter of timing/luck.
Lets just see how this pans out hey? If hes caught bang on, well his books are all going in the bin. Along with the photobook bought as a birthday present for me.
If hes found not guilty I'll just have to put up with topics appearing on STW for eternity calling him a cheat.
[url= http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/armstrong.htm ]The link Hora demanded with a positive test for Lance.[/url]
Plus facheux encore, il est contrôlé positif aux corticoïdes lors du Tour de France. Il aura probablement été surpris par la mise en place de la détection des corticoïdes, annoncée seulement quelques jours plus tôt. Présenté, a posteriori, un certificat médical établi par Luis Del Moral, le médecin de l'US Postal, lui permet d'échapper aux sanctions (en contradiction avec l'article 43 du règlement de l'UCI qui précise que le certificat médical doit être présenté au moment du contrôle). L'incident est facheux pour un coureur qui, interrogé sur le sujet quelques jours avant la révélation, soutenait mordicus ne bénéficier d'aucune prescription médicale particulière, ce qu'on n'appelait pas encore les AUT.
Alex - obvious troll is obvious
I genuinely think that if he hasn't been caught they should drop it. Its embarrassing. I also think the same with Contador caught red handed fair enough, caught retrospectively who gives a proverbial.
Edukator - Member
The link Hora demanded with a positive test for Lance.
That's the link that proves he's a doper? 🙄
I skim read that and lol'ed
IronMan - Member
I can't believe Lance is doing Realman.
Hora:
I think they had to cheat just to suck on his wheell ...that is it innit Hora?
Which comes back to that old argument....if they were ALL cheating - he was either on double-smack or **** better than everyone in those tours.
I'm not saying that he wasn't better. The pseudo-level playing field that widespread doping left us with suggests he was very good.
What I'd like to see is that[b] if he was cheating too[/b] then he should pay the price.
The whole legend built on the reputation as a clean rider, the disproportionate attacks on his accusers (many of whom appear to have had at least some merit), the endless legal processes, all seem to make people u happy to let the matter lie. Me included.
I'd like to see all cheats face the repercussions of their acts, and see clean racing.
Edukator - Member
The link Hora demanded with a positive test for Lance.
Is that an official body/agency/news of fact or someones homebrewed website then.
I'll say it again. Lets see if hes guilty or not.
and see [s]clean[/s] [b]boring[/b] racing.
I can't believe Lance is doing Ironman
My brother's done an ironman, he even did it clean (apart from a nasty shit in the woods 10m into the run)
Is that an official body/agency/news of fact or someones homebrewed website then.
That's the problem with all of this. There's half the internet filled with Armstrong chat - facts and reports mixed in with interpretations, rumours, heresay, opinions and PR. No-one knows what's fact and what's fiction anymore, the whole thing has become laughable.
Armstrong allegedly tested positive for minute traces of corticosteroids in 1999 (it's actually in his book) and produced a backdated TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption) certificate which allowed that substance. Of course, that's all mixed up in reports that he paid off the UCI, it's all a con, blah blah...
@ Hora
here is a link but it has over 9000 post on it but ive followed it from the start ,every thing is in there from Lance fanboys to haters and ex usa racers who rode against Lance , his cover up test's and how he got advance warning of test so he could shower frist and the reason for doing that and lots more.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17452
If you don't like that link then Google it, Hora. The cortisone positive has been reported widely including the [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/sports/othersports/12cycling.html?pagewanted=print ]New York Times[/url].
As an athlete I know the rules, you produce a medical certifate when they test you and Lance didn't. He produced a medical certificate from his team doctor after events and spouted some nonsense about bum cream. He tested positive and broke the rules, the UCI didn't apply their own rules and let him off.
I genuinely think that if he hasn't been caught they should drop it. Its embarrassing. I also think the same with Contador caught red handed fair enough, caught retrospectively who gives a proverbial.
Surley the issue is whether they have cheated not whether they avoided tests. there is a long list of drug cheats who never failed a test- it seems like you are saying its ok to cheat if you dont get caught as we will just ignore it.
well your french is better than mine but you are the master of the language of love, non 😉Is that an official body/agency/news of fact or someones homebrewed website then.
The moment I stopped believing all the hype about lance was the incident when he chased down Simeoni. That bothered me more than all the doping rumours. A nasty, pointless act which portrayed him in his true light.
For what is worth I think they should drop it the whole thing. Even if he did they never caught him at it so they were too slow; same goes for Contador's ban really.
I genuinely think that if he hasn't been caught they should drop it. Its embarrassing. I also think the same with Contador caught red handed fair enough, caught retrospectively who gives a proverbial.
No, because...
Surley the issue is whether they have cheated not whether they avoided tests.
No, this is not the (only) issue here.
If LA has cheated / failed tests, then there is a whole other, non-sporting world of criminal investigation that should be opened up to scrutiny.
This extends to a whole bigger arena than competition and sporting excellence...
... funding, sponsorship, reputation, charitable foundation, paying off officials - if such a thing happened
So this bloke Lance is a well known doper (according known druggies), does a bit for charity, is a serial litigant who was once rumoured to have ridden a bicycle in France.
No matter how careful you are- [s]competing[/s] doping for years you'll one day show a trace. Its a matter of timing/luck.
FTFY
and see [s]clean[/s] boring racing.
Well some have laid that accusation against this year's TdF. I could go on, but you must be trolling...
IronMan - Member
I can't believe Lance is doing Realman.
😆
So if they could somehow break out all the old samples and test them, would they then have to do the same for the 'promoted' to 1st place riders?
same for the 'promoted' to 1st place riders
That would be very depressing wouldn't it. Credibility of the whole sport 🙁
How is the credibility if the sport actually harmed by catching cheats
Only those who dont really follow it dont realise that period was nothing more than sustained drug cheating by a large proportion of those competing
You can make a credible case for arguing there has always been drug cheats from gin shots to amphetamines to catching buses since the start
See it's at this point Hora that you start contradicting yourself-why would it be depressing? You claim to want to wait and see over LA yet you seem to have made your mind up about the rest of the peloton.
Anyone got a timescale for this to play out over?
LA has to decide whether or not to contest USADA by tomorrow...
You can make a credible case for arguing there has always been drug cheats from gin shots to amphetamines to catching buses since the start....
Interviewer: ‘When do you take drugs?’
Fausto Coppi: ‘Whenever it is necessary.’
Interviewer: ‘And when is it necessary?’
Fausto Coppi: ‘Almost always.’
There are obviously loads of soping stories/quotes from history but I like the refreshing honesty of that one from Coppi, one of the true greats.
I believe Coppi raced in an era when taking drugs, " La bomba " didn't contravene the rules. I may be wrong.
Is this STILL running?
I'm not reading all that - did he or didn't he?
See it's at this point Hora that you start contradicting yourself-why would it be depressing? You claim to want to wait and see over LA yet you seem to have made your mind up about the rest of the peloton.
Well it'd just be what most of public/riders are starting to think. FFS- for all these accusers etc to come out and be caught/tainted is ridiculous.
on the failing drug tests story this is very interesting, long but worth reading:
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
I believe Coppi raced in an era when taking drugs, " La bomba " didn't contravene the rules. I may be wrong.
I believe they contravened the rules but weren't tested for.
Either way, they were certainly different times.
I'm not reading all that - did he or didn't he?
Well, apologies for the late thread resurrection, it has taken a few sittings to thoroughly read through the Ashenden interview linked above ^^^
I must say that is probably the best piece I have read about doping / anti doping in sport. Totally measured, very balanced and based on the man's considered interpretation of the available facts.
I started out as someone who admired Lance Armstrong's achievements, but was not a fan (that period of road racing didn't capture my imagination in the way the early 90s did). However, my opinion now is that the man is not only very likely a cheat, but also a fraud, bully and thoroughly unpleasant example of what is wrong, not only in sport, but in many walks of life where successful "look at me" types squash the ambition of others who also have the ability, dedication and desire to be successful.
The only area I disagree with Ashenden is the one about criminalisation of drug cheats. If there is no money involved, ie just sporting prestige, then I'd be inclined to agree. However, with the multi million sponsorship, media, and reputational industry riding on the back of sporting succes, anyone who gets chemical support to reach the top must surely be regarded as a fraudster and common criminal?
I'm constantly amazed that no one else who read the first LALA book noticed that LALA is a bully. I was a huge fan of LALA from the early 90s until I read that book in the late 90s (notwithstanding the cancer which I would t wish on anyone) but not since then. All the other stuff coming out now just seems to complete the opinion that I formed about the man 12/13 years ago.
Having a good read through this it doesn't seem biased/etc but it does raise a few questions on the agencies approach and motives
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/22/sport/lance-armstrong-usada-cycling/index.html
hora - have you read the Ashenden interview in it's entirety?
I'd be interested in your honest opinions - not whether LA doped or not, but of Ashenden's piece, how it comes across to a fan of LA.
To me it did not come across as vindictive or pursueing any kind of personal vendetta - just came across as an open discussion of the available evidence
I posted up a day or two ago that he has an abrasive character.
His character/ability to make friends and alienate people has nothing to do with 'has he failed a drugs test in the past decade does it.
I posted up a day or two ago that he has an abrasive character.His character/ability to make friends and alienate people has nothing to do with 'has he failed a drugs test in the past decade does it.
Agreed. Very interested in your views on how Ashenden presents his views though? Does Ashenden come across to you as a "stirrer" / trouble maker, or does his article seem thoughtful and considered?