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Wow, the curtain has not just finally fallen it's been ripped to shreds!
Do you think he'll confess? I'd respect him if he'd come clean. It might help limit the damage.
Who knows, his ego is colossal, perhaps it depends on how much risk there is of a Federal case re opening against him.
His facebook page should be amusing
Piemonster's link (the USADA text) is well worth reading for those who remember all of those races. The backstory to what was going on is incredible.
I've absolutely no time for cheats and dopers and in the case of Armstrong, I've said all along that until they show some evidence that he's doped rather than statements and bits of Internet speculation, as its been up until now, I'd stick with the principle of innocent until proven otherwise.
It would be fair to say that with the news coming out today, there's absolutely no way he can really be found anything but guilty.
After reading the statements released today, it's fair to say I'm more disappointed in Hincapie as I kind of hoped that he was clean but it seems that it's a bit much to expect that of any of the top riders of that era.
If I understand Michael Barry's confession correctly he was doped when he won the 2003 (also 04/05) World TT title when David Millar was banned for the same thing!
Interestingly both Barry & Hincapie claim they have been clean since 2006 which was when LA retired for the first time.
Just realised that I've won as many TdF's as Lance.
He's got more testicles than TDF victories, I believe...
He will be Unrepentant and say its a witch hunt by losers.
If he keeps repeating that he's innocent he will start to believe himself despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's Hora, I guess it stands for lance too.
What does this mean for the TDF titles he won?
Are all those years now null and void? Cannot see how they can award elsewhere given the sweeping implications of the report.
Is it Barry Bond asterix time??
Guessing this was covered somehwere in the 1200 posts thus far but not sure I have the will so sift through it all 🙂
What does this mean for the TDF titles he won?Are all those years now null and void? Cannot see how they can award elsewhere given the sweeping implications of the report.
Depends a bit on what the UCI and ASO (the organsiers of the Tour) say about it. The easiest solution would just be to put an asterisk there and say "subsequently stripped due to doping" or some such. Can't re-award them - I know that in at least one of the years you need to go down to about 8th place before you come to a rider not tainted by doping scandals!
I can't see the UCI being happy about the bit that suggests they may have got in the way to delay a blood test to Postal. Still seems to be very heavily witness based though although the complete story is compelling
Nice to see the BBC slandering MTB by showing footage of Lance on a proper bike whilst talking about the charges.
Pages 51 and 52 might get the UCI a bit upset too, as it talks about the EPO test that never was at the Tour de Suisse and the meeting with the UCI that made it go away
What do I think? If true its sullied road cycling forever. If George was never caught what about our Olympic team? The current Tour?
If Lance did he needs to come clean. All of them are cheats and liars in my book.
Nice to see the BBC slandering MTB by showing footage of Lance on a proper bike whilst talking about the charges.
Heh...oh wait. You're being serious?
[i]What do I think? If true its sullied road cycling forever[/i]
Behave y'self, you sound like a kid who found out about Xmas..
Holy cow, that's some serious meatballs.
"He was not just a part of the doping culture on his team, he enforced and re-enforced it." and that's just p6 of 150ish!
This is a thread about Lancey, and those involved in his doping cycling career.
I'd suggest starting a relevant thread rather than bringing other doping topics into here
hora - Member
What do I think? If true its sullied road cycling forever. If George was never caught what about our Olympic team? The current Tour?If Lance did he needs to come clean. All of them are cheats and liars in my book.
Toys/pram.
Is that 'all' pro cyclists or just the ones who've been caught/admitted doping?All of them are cheats and liars in my book.
Sounds like a very good opportunity for the UCI to really get things clean - it's not like they, or pro cycling, have a good reputation to keep up!
Poor old Johan looks like he is a bit screwed too, surely he cannot hope to win his arbitration 😯
So you are saying everyones clean currently? If Lance and George never tested positive but cheated what about the current tour and Olympics or is this fingers in ears and lah lah lah.
Seriously.It makes an utter joke of the whole testing charade. A healthy activity where people use chemicals FFS.
If Lance did he needs to come clean
IF - do you still have doubts?
Lol at Hora....why are you using the word "if"....no ifs, not buts, he is guilty.
99 problems and a Glitch is one
my mistake 99 probles and a glitch is two
[i]So you are saying everyones clean currently? If Lance and George never tested positive but cheated what about the current tour and Olympics or is this fingers in ears and lah lah lah.
Seriously.
[/i]
Yup, Lance cheated. Seriously.
So you are saying everyones clean currently? If Lance and George never tested positive but cheated what about the current tour and Olympics or is this fingers in ears and lah lah lah.Seriously
I assume there are still drugs cheat in all sports but the systematic cheating that characterised pro road cycling at that time and LA and his team in particular are a thing of the past.
I think the biological passport is a more robust test that makes cheating much harder to hide.
Unless of course you have some evidence beyond look they are all passing tests which is not the reason LA is being condemned it is the fact there is actually some evidence.
do you think he is guilty now?
Bloddy hell! If even Hora thinks he is guilty Lance really is up S*** Creek!
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/10/lance-armstrong-doping-case-live ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/10/lance-armstrong-doping-case-live[/url]
the guardian covering the report 'live' some concise snippets for the Lance Enablers to chew on.
The testimony now available in detail is compelling – and sometimes almost comic. According to two witnesses, the USPS team doctor Pedro Celaya (who is charged by Usada and will face a CAS hearing later this year) was thrown into a panic at the 1998 Tour de France by the Festina scandal, in which the French team was caught red-handed with a vast medicine cabinet of illegal drugs. Celaya flushed tens of thousands of the USPS's stash of drugs down the toilet – though, this would not have been much help if the French police had raided the team, because the toilet was in a camper van.
Via the above link
That info above is also in Tyler Hamilton's book - well worth a read.
Twitter has suddenly got very entertaining this evening. Seems pretty much every pro cyclist out there is blogging about their statement to USADA/their past doping...
And this one from Michael Hutchinson:
[i]Well done to Lance fan who just me sent an email saying 'he's not as bad as Jimmy Savile'. New high watermark in damning with faint praise.[/i]
😉
Watershed moment in the pro peloton??
I've smeared clear of this until I got the facts of the report.
I'm shocked, disappointed and saddened.
Some of my fave riders whom I followed for years have been dishonoured.
It's both a good day and a bad day.
Should be collection Tylers book from the postie tomo
Watershed moment in the pro peloton??
Maybe, depends as much on the continental reaction as it does on the Anglophone section.
Seriously.It makes an utter joke of the whole testing charade. A healthy activity where people use chemicals FFS.
I think the report shows exactly the opposite. Once it was clear that testing had to improve dramatically the teams were constantly having to change their doping tactics to stay ahead, they were catching up fast and it may have taken a bit of intervention from insiders to allow Lance to just stay ahead. The statement from Hincapie and others also seems to imply that in reality they are happier not doping and maybe the era of mass doping is over
at least I hope so. I'm starting to really enjoy the TdF again now
So who has all came out and admitted doping?
GH, CVDV, MB anyone else?
These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.
did you get that from his opening post on his thread?
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/usada-releasing-armstrong-evidence-today
I think he may have meant has anyone else come clean on twitter tbh
I meant who has came out and released a statement or whatever today as JY said.
Ahh, I may have miss read that. Mine was from the USADA site, same thing though. Helluva read. Wonder whats in the other 800 odd pages?
The other 800 pages is the evidence, statements, etc (appendices & supporting evidence)
http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/
See the different tabs...
wouldn't fancy trying toget my bike through US customs [url= http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/US-Postal-Service-Pro-Cycling-Team-Bike-Bag-/320998092507?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4abcfa2edb ]in this[/url] 😆
As for the difference between Lance and the current winners there is one key difference. Evidence. There has always been suspicion about Lance due to bits of evidence but his "never failed a test" mantra and willingness to sue meant it never really got mainstream attention.
There isn't the same suspicion based on evidence of current winners. People who know more about these things than you or I give the view that these people, Evans, Heijerdal (sp?), Wiggins, are clean.
That doesn't mean we should be complacent and ignore evidence if it does appear but in my view it means we can enjoy the sport for what it is, without having it ruined by an assumption that any outstanding performance is drug fuelled.
hincapies testimony is worth a read
From GH's statement, Rider 4 - Bobby Julich or Andrea Peron.
After reading GH's statement and recently David Millar's book, I can almost empathise with these guys. To be at that level of fitness and still not be able to compete clean must be soul destroying.
It will be very interesting to see what tack LA takes after this, now that continuing denial is not a viable option. I can't see it in his personality to take any blame for what's gone on but I can see a definite PR machine rumbling to make him a hero once again and portray him as a 'victim' who only did what was necessary for the benefit his cancer charity!
he is still denying it as vociferously as always from his lawyer today
(The) statement confirms the alleged 'reasoned decision' from USADA will be a one-sided hatchet job - a taxpayer-funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories,"
Breen said the agency was "ignoring the 500-600 tests Lance Armstrong passed, ignoring all exculpatory evidence, and trying to justify the millions of dollars USADA has spent pursuing one, single athlete for years."
He added: "USADA has continued its government-funded witch hunt of only Mr. Armstrong, a retired cyclist, in violation of its own rules and due process, in spite of USADA's lack of jurisdiction, in blatant violation of the statute of limitations."
That statement is surely beyond spin and just untrue/inaccurate and a lie.
others were charged for example, it explain why the statute of limitations does not apply, it clearly has jurisdiction etc
Someone needs to have a word with him and explain the bubble is burst
It will be very interesting to see what tack LA takes after this, now that continuing denial is not a viable option
Is he not a bit stuck because of the next civil whistle blowing case being brought by Landis on behalf of the US government? Presumably if he actually admits to this he is in lots of trouble due to that, SCA, promises to sponsors on being clean etc. Simeoni must be smiling today
Like it Yunki 😀
For me the key parts of the statement Junkyard shared are where the proceedings are described as a "hatchet job" and a "witch hunt" He/they are now getting past trying to convince people who follow cycling as we are a lost cause (except Lance's road dog Hora) and are now aiming at the general public who will have little idea of the way doping/testing works in cycling,surely this is now a dangerous game? All going to turn into even more of a car crash than it already is,as he has backed himself into a real corner with the above press release.
As an aside,have you seen how cheap livestrong sunnies go on fleabay now?
I'm just as suspicisous of current winners and their team mates. The ability of two riders in particular to reel in breakaways of several strong riders day after day is uncanny. The current directeur sportive of one successful current team tested positive in 89 though was not punished. He rode with Lance for much of his career and was also dricteur sportive of one of Lance's teams.
As you mean Sky, why not just say it?
I assume there are still drugs cheat in all sports but the systematic cheating that characterised pro road cycling at that time and LA and his team in particular are a thing of the past.
I think they're probably very much still with us. I'm worried they might be very close to home.
He added: "USADA has continued its government-funded witch hunt of only Mr. Armstrong, a retired cyclist, in violation of its own rules and due process, in spite of USADA's lack of jurisdiction, in blatant violation of the statute of limitations."
Well they tried that in court, the judge said USADA did have jurisdiction, are they now calling the judge a liar? Isn't that statement sailing rather close to contempt or something similar, any legal eagles know?
[i]a retired cyclist[/i]
bless, gives the impression of some doddering old man looking around slightly bewildered at all the attention that is suddenly being focused upon him.
MSP - Member
Well they tried that in court, the judge said USADA did have jurisdiction, are they now calling the judge a liar? Isn't that statement sailing rather close to contempt or something similar, any legal eagles know?
No contempt - not said in court. Just makes them look like clowns.
Agree (and this isn't a troll), the reason why I was holding my support for Lance was I didn't think it was conceivable for Lance to be 'clean' this long without the assistance of the UCI, and/or incompetent doping controls, and/or corrupt doping testers etc.
Lance won't come clean as if he does he's going to jail for perjury.
Glitch...?
Lance won't come clean as if he does he's going to jail for perjury.
I don't think it matters if he comes clean or not, if the evidence points to him lying under oath, then he committed perjury. It will be interesting to see if this actually happens, and why the investigation was closed down when there is so much compelling evidence.
"Watershed moment in the pro peloton?? "
If the positives out of the below can be taken then yes I believe it's a watershed moment.
Read the riders' statements
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/danielson-vande-velde-and-zabriskie-accept-usada-bans
Ok, meant to say that Lance won't come clean voluntarily. Suspect he'll go down for this.
Also, I'm quite surprised by people saying how disappointed they are by riders like Hincapie and Barry. Are you following the same sport I've been following? This can't really come as a surprise to anyone. They were put in incredibly difficult situations during some dark times for cycling, and given the same alternatives I'm sure most of us would probably have made the same choices. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to read Millar and Hamiltons books for starters.
Let us say that you went to a party and on the way back home you were stopped by the police for speeding. Then the cop made you take an alcohol test. It showed that you were not drunk. He took another one and it showed the same thing. He took you to the hospital and their test showed you were not under the influence of Alcohol.
The cop then goes to the party and thay say "oh, he was drunk". So now you are pronounced GUILTY.
Armstong had hundreds of test and he passed them all, but now (just because some people who don't like him or have already been caught and are just determined to drag him down with them,) he's guilty?
It's a good job that at the end of the day it's just about riding a bicycle around the place, so pretty insignificant in the scheme of things.
Joao - are you still in denial about lala? After all the evidence published over the last few years?
Blimey.
Let us say that you went to a party and on the way back home you were stopped by the police for speeding. Then the cop made you take an alcohol test. It showed that you were not drunk. He took another one and it showed the same thing. He took you to the hospital and their test showed you were not under the influence of Alcohol.The cop then goes to the party and thay say "oh, he was drunk". So now you are pronounced GUILTY.
Armstong had hundreds of test and he passed them all, but now (just because some people who don't like him or have already been caught and are just determined to drag him down with them,) he's guilty?
You're joking, right?
And if they had records of bank transfers to the off licence?
Joao, if a load of others at the party were also tested and shown not to be drunk, then all admitted to having been boozing heavily all night... what conclusions would you come to?
Joao, if a load of others at the party were also tested and shown not to be drunk, then all admitted to having been boozing heavily all night... what conclusions would you come to?
That the testing system was dodgy?
That the other party goers were hacked off?
The whole saga is just very sordid and very sad.
[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nike-show-continued-support-for-armstrong-after-usada-report ]Nike still supporting Lance.[/url] Quite surprising really.
Joao - that's the shittest analogy I've ever heard.
Also check up what WADA accepts as evidence, sworn testimony is included, not just positive tests.
The UCI and ASO have signed up and accepts WADA regulations.
Take your head out the sand, it'll hurt your eyes.
Nike still supporting Lance. Quite surprising really.
I suppose with the "Just do it!" slogan their support is quite appropriate.
How about Oakley, Trek etc?
Joao - that's the shittest analogy I've ever heard
Sorry. I nicked it from elsewhere, so unfortunately can't claim any credit for it's shittiness.
Joao, if a load of others at the party were also tested and shown not to be drunk, then all admitted to having been boozing heavily all night... what conclusions would you come to?
I'd conclude their statement to be unreliable at best, blatant lying at worst.
If never failing a drugs test can be trumped by some blokes saying "he did it", then what's the point in all the drug testing.
Anyway, I'm clearly out of my depth amongst all the doping & legal experts here 😀
Joao - that's the shittest analogy I've ever heard
Sorry. I nicked it from elsewhere, so unfortunately can't claim any credit for it's shittiness.
Joao, if a load of others at the party were also tested and shown not to be drunk, then all admitted to having been boozing heavily all night... what conclusions would you come to?
I'd conclude their statement to be unreliable at best, blatant lying at worst.
If never failing a drugs test can be trumped by some blokes saying "he did it", then what's the point in all the drug testing.
Anyway, I'm clearly out of my depth amongst all the doping & legal experts here. I didn't realise STW was populated with so many globally-renowned lawyers & scientists 😀 ... unless we're all just repeating stuff we found on the internet & agree with?
That the testing system was dodgy?
That the other party goers were hacked off?
The whole saga is just very sordid and very sad.
1, Yes
2, Can't see how that is true. In this case all your mates have come forward and said that they were all shit-faced despite the fact if they'd kept their mouths shut nobody would have known
3, Agreed. It's a shocking period in professional sport in general and particularly for cycling. This hopefully will begin to really draw a line under it
If never failing a drugs test can be trumped by some blokes saying "he did it", then what's the point in all the drug testing.
Millar never failed a drugs test.
2, Can't see how that is true. In this case all your mates have come forward and said that they were all shit-faced despite the fact if they'd kept their mouths shut nobody would have known
The tests say one thing and the person says the opposite.
Lance, as one person, had the power to influence and oversee this structure of professional doping yet USADA doesn't have the same level of influence.
Just saying like. [/devil's advocate]