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Ooo this should get us to 1000. It's definately a witchunt then.
Stunning open letter from Michael Ashenden to Phil Liggett:
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/filthy-business-indeed
rkk01 - MemberUsada has not had access, despite requests, to the evidence the Food and Drug Administration investigators gathered, and has built its own case.
Ooh, that's a twist isn't it. Wonder if they've got anything extra, to make up for the loss? Or if it all ends up coming down to making a weaker case, but relying on the lower burden of proof? (or, I guess option c is the "federal case dropped because of corruption" allegation, which I'd like to see more of too)
Stunning open letter from Michael Ashenden to Phil Liggett:http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/filthy-business-indeed
That is a great letter
Feel a bit sorry for Liggett after reading that, it was like watching him go 10 rounds with Tyson. Absolutely destroyed.
Brilliant letter!
I think the letter could have been better written with more precision and less bile. Othewise people might.....
Feel a bit sorry for Liggett after reading that
No argument with the content of the letter, just the style.
I think the letter could have been better written with more precision and less bile.
Yep. What a cock. Maybe he should stick to doctoring and leave the speaking to others?
Just to clarify, I didn't actually feel sorry for him and quite enjoyed the leter. Maybe Liggett should stick to commentating (badly) and leave the analysis of doping controls to others?
Well, actually Liggett was commentating (possibly badly) and was actually asked for his opinion, unlike Ashenden.
Ashenden has now lost his credability with that diatribe. He could have written it better and reinforced his postion the the arguments about the case, wonder if he was pissed. No wonder LA and the supporters can claim witchunt.
Yep. What a cock. Maybe he should stick to doctoring and leave the speaking to others?
He actually usually writes very well, he's obviously just tearing his hair out (OK he was already bald...) at the crap Liggett was spewing and ranted back in a STW forum-style manner which whilst entertaining I agree doesn't really make him come across in the best light
Thought his letter was ok
Phil you are talking out your rear
love Ashenden
he was not wrong and phil was
Hmmmmmm. Nah, I don't think he loses credibility. There's no lack of diatribes from the pro- side, so a bit of furious wrath from the other side hardly changes the tone. I think it'll put people off, and it's not particularily readable, but then there's no lack of more reasoned discussion to complement it.
I think the letter could have been better written with more precision and less bile. Othewise people might.....
Given the crass stupidity and hypocrisy of Ligett's comments I thought he was pretty restrained TBH.
A little off topic but can anyone explain how Riis is still allowed to have any involvement in the sport of cycling, let alone manage a professional cycling team? Latest [url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-i-do-not-know-fuentes ]allegation comes from Hamilton[/url].
+1 JY & Northwind
A mate of mine summed it up nicely with "weird how he uses 'Phil' to mean 'dickhead'"
A little off topic but can anyone explain how Riis is still allowed to have any involvement in the sport of cycling, let alone manage a professional cycling team?
It's why it's taking so many years to clean up cycling. A very high percentage of riders go into things like team management, coaching, commentary etc when they retire so they keep everything covered up nicely. They doped, they know how it was done, they introduced the younger riders (the ones who are still racing) to doping, those practices get a bit more refined then when they retire they've got their cushy little commentary number or a role as DS but if they speak out, suddenly all the sponsorship comes crashing down, the team fragments, the younger riders who looked up to these guys suddenly have their career ended - so they don't speak out.
That's part of the reason that a lot of the cycling press never questioned LA's results cos he'd simply deny them interviews and photos - this at a time when interviews with LA sold magazines and photos and got hits on websites. Hence everything published about him was always about how great he was...
The UCI is supposed to be introducing some sort of rule that prevents anyone with a doping conviction from working within the sport but that hasn't happened (yet).
Ashenden's reply (or more tellingly, the comments underneath it) show just how divided it is. The issue is no longer about LA doping. It's about different sides in a war sniping at each other, pot shots about who's got the biggest axe to grind, who knows "the truth", counterclaims to the other sides claims. What a total mess.
A mate of mine summed it up nicely with "weird how he uses 'Phil' to mean 'dickhead'"
ha ha, 🙂
Crawling up towards the 900 mark...
This is very interesting... Shows all the links LA has/had with cycling in general - some of this came as news to me as well but it shows how small and incestuous the world of cycling is and how LA was able to control the peloton and the media and even the governing bodies.
This isn't restricted to LA, this kind of stuff still goes on today but the flow chart surprised me. Full version available as a pdf download [url= http://www.cyclismas.com/ ]here[/url]
[img] 
[/img]
doping is like speeding....its against the law, but hey.
Nine hundred
More sh*te hitting the fan according to twitter. Usada have positive samples and the UCI threatening journalists if they say there was a cover up.
More sh*te hitting the fan according to twitter. Usada have positive samples and the UCI threatening journalists if they say there was a cover up.
I have a (largely unused) twitter account - I keep forgetting to look at it.
Can you suggest a few people/orgs I should be following?
Ny velocity, yohan vaughters and velonews
In the current climate TAHSP on Twitter is an interesting read. They have a graphic about those who are tainted by drugs and their finishing position in the Tour.
Edit [url= http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/sports/top-finishers-of-the-tour-de-france-tainted-by-doping.html?smid=tw-share ]link to graphic[/url]
[url= http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/08/lance-armstrong-confesses-i-did-it-for-the-alimony/ ]For the first hand revelations click here...[/url]
😉
Double post
If true... ouch!
sorry higgo - hard to read the 'crow' bit with sidebars that read "Hand Bras Should Be The Law" 🙂
glitchty bump
The "interview" with LA in the link I posted above is amusingly satirical...
Cyclismas Let’s delve into that subject. Why did you come back from retirement? Your return is being discussed as your Achilles heel, opening the door for USADA to move against you.Lance Honestly?
Cyclismas That would be nice for a change.
Lance Hang on. (dials cellular phone) Hi Mark? Can I spill the beans on why I came out of retirement? Is there any damage to the titles if I share the truth? Yes. Yes. Yes. No. No. He didn’t ask about that yet. It’s fine? Alright. I’ll go for it. (hangs up phone)
Cyclismas So you can tell us the truth on that one?
Lance Yes. I did it for the alimony.
Cyclismas Sorry? Alimony? Can you elaborate?
Lance Sure what the hell. All my ex-girlfriends receive a monthly payment in exchange for their signing of a non-disclosure agreement for keeping my activities private and quiet. I also make substantial payments to Kik for the kids and her lifestyle, not to mention taking care of my kids with Anna. Plus, I just can’t help but have extra helpings, if you know what I mean. Seriously, the number of blondies in Colorado for the US Pro is off the hook. The boys have done some good scouting for me the past two weeks.
is the interwebz broken?
Another bump
no. but i think Hora's resolve might be.
Some more bits and pieces from Hamilton's book:
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/media/books/Lance-Armstrong-Case-Closed.html?page=1
Little bit more info on Hamilton's new book:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9518947/Lance-Armstrong-book-to-be-amended-for-UK.html
Not sure whether to laugh or cry on this one... 🙄
[url= http://www.salemnews.com/opinion/x1011134793/Column-A-bogus-attack-on-Lance-Armstrong ]vitriolic bile[/url]
Just so we all understand what the USADA’s arbitration process is, it is a prosecutor (Tygart), a lead arbitrator (Tygart) and two (of Tygart’s) employees. If there’s a ruling by this board that gets appealed, then the appeal goes to Tygart. There are no internal or external controls on the USADA.
On Thursday, Aug. 23, Armstrong announced that he wasn’t going to play in Tygart’s sandbox. Tygart, the same day, in an excited, agitated manner, announced that he, personally, was stripping Armstrong of his seven Tour de France titles, his Olympic medal and all financial rewards from his cycling career. However, the International Cycling Union and the Amaury Sport Organization, which is in charge of the Tour de France, have not accepted mini-despot Tygart’s opinion, which is the USADA’s ruling, because they want to see the evidence to back it up. The bylaws of the World Anti-Doping agency says they have to back the USADA, but they have demurred, awaiting the evidence.
Gotta love the measured, objective reporting...
Im quite sure ive never actually read anything with so many inaccurate statements and lies in it before...
Armstrong has seven children,
Even Armstrong's statement said he had 5 children
I am not sure anything in that article was true
Even Armstrong's statement said he had 5 childrenI am not sure anything in that article was true
Maybe he doesn't realise he impregnated Hora with twins?
So - Hamilton's book is out in the US today...
Most of the online coverage goes straight for the "Motoman" EPO drop off courier allegations - ie LA's gardener popped in to the peloton with some EPO when required...
... seems quite a remarkable claim. I wonder who's trawling through their '99 TdF coverage at the mo to see if it is verifiable
Surely Motoman was popping to the team bus, hotel etc when required not into the peleton. The idea being so it wasn't stored on team premises.
Anyone who's ever ridden with me will confirm I have never taken EPO but isn't it taken by injection? I know the peleton was turning a blind eye to these things but I doubt anyone was injecting themselves while riding along.
Surely Motoman was popping to the team bus, hotel etc when required not into the peleton. The idea being so it wasn't stored on team premises.
Makes sense - my mis-read 😳
Post of the thread 😆
Is this Lance thing still on? Thought it would have gone away till next July.
people on drugs just don't know when to stop, they ramble on and on and on and
So - Hamilton's book is out in the US today...
So has anyone actually read it?
I know it's not out in the UK yet but we must have some colonials on here.
So is this the right place to say, " **** me Alberto that was unbelievable".
So basically Lance was using his Lance on hot blondes after riding 160 miles a day. Awesome.
By the way - Alberto is probably doped as well.
Anyone know what Contadors watts/kg were for today's final climb? Would tell us a lot.
You haters make me laugh. You hate because some drug users tell you to.
As much as I dislike Armstrong and am convinced he's guilty, I'm not sure I can believe anything Hamilton would write after his "I have a twin brother inside me" excuses for his blood results.
Never trust a word of a lier and cheat.
Common sense?!
Agreed, Hamilton is not the most reliable witness.
But the 'revelations' in his book (which I haven't read) seem to be consistent with the rest of the jigsaw.
I probably won't be around later when the time comes, so can I be the first to say:
"WunFaaahhzand!"
COME ON STW. MAKE LANCE PROUD !!
[quote=hora ]Never trust a word of a lier and cheat.
Common sense?!
Exactly. So we're full circle as to why you trust the word of a certain Lance Armstrong 😉
Some people are selective about which cheats and liars they believe.
I read a newspaper piece this week that said that Armstrong's fans were going through the [url= http://www.businessballs.com/elisabeth_kubler_ross_five_stages_of_grief.htm#elisabeth_kubler-ross_five_stages_of_grief ]five stages of grief[/url] right now. I don't think Hora has got much beyond the denial phase.
Some people on some of the US message boards are quite clearly into the 'anger' phase now, many of them taking it out on Sheryl Crow who, [i]it is said[/i], gave testimony to the invetsigators because she [u]had[/u] to i.e. would have wound up in court if she'd refused to speak.
The most disturbing thing about this whole farrago is what has Hamilton done to his hair
[img] 
[/img]
mefty, I think that's Cheryl Crow
jfletch - Member
Anyone know what Contadors watts/kg were for today's final climb? Would tell us a lot.
It's well worth reading this thread at cyclingnews:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18436
(or a summary though it misses some interesting posts, here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vaughters-confirms-past-doping-by-danielson-others-at-garmin )
Vaughters (JV1973) has posted quite a lot to say the least.
This post answers the VAM w/kg question on yesterday's stage:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1012723#post1012723
Andrew Talansky finished approx 1 minute down on the top guys. This over a 40+ minute climb. Talansky's VAM was sub-1600, or around 5.9 w/kg, this would put the leaders at perhaps 1650 VAM and 6.1 w/kg. This is not exceptional. 6.1 w/kg gets you around 15th place in 2001 Tour de France.
though keep reading and there are some quite funny comments about Heras and Vino ref the 15th place in 2001 🙂
That thread is very strange. I am quite amazed that JV bothers to go to CyclingNews at all but given how derisive they are towards him, doubly so.
Me too but it's interesting to say the least. He is quite engaging with normal fans though - I've had a couple of twitter discussions on pro cycling with him. I guess that's the power of social media/the internet - the ability to go straight to the source (if they choose to play ball)
As an aside, a website I found on that thread (or maybe another) is pretty good:
[url= http://www.dopeology.org/ ]www.dopeology.org[/url]
Never trust a word of a lier and cheat.Common sense?!
The problem here is your assumption [leap of faith] that everyone else but LA is lying, you are in complete denial.
You really have your head in the clouds regarding this and your man crush seems to have clouded your vision /powers of reasoning.
Nothing will convince you beyond an LA admission and that is highly unlikely as even when convicted he wont admit it ...bit like Tyler eh
History repeats itself first as tragedy then as farce.
And here comes one of the denials from an accusation levelled in Hamilton's book:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9524663/Drug-accusations-made-by-Tyler-Hamilton-labelled-absurd-by-former-US-Postal-director.html
glitchy thread bump
Glitchbump?
An admission or black and white proof.
Some people don't believe Armstrong walked on the moon. Do you believe or do you doubt without concrete proof?
mefty, I think that's Cheryl Crow
Lol, just had coffee on keyboard moment!
Gosh, a rider we'd all pretty much forgotten about chooses this particular moment to write a book about doping. What a coincidence!
*wonders why Lance is getting so much heat given that doping was so widespread, for so long, so widely denied by so many*
And why is Contador allowed to race? - he tested positive, recently, and I read somewhere that his ban period was adjusted so it was partly retrospective and so he didn't miss too many races. For goodness sake - what message does that send?
Some people don't believe Armstrong walked on the moon. Do you believe or do you doubt without concrete proof?
As if winning 7 Tours wasn't enough, he went to the moon as well?!
Or do you mean he was wired to the moon while winning 7 Tours?
😉
[yes, I know it's two different Armstrongs, it's not an irony fail...]
That is wierd - Contador.
Genuine LOL, I walked into that one 😆
*wonders why Lance is getting so much heat given that doping was so widespread, for so long, so widely denied by so many*
Because, IMO and as stated by USADA, he was part of a conspiracy that many would argue perpetuated doping in cycling and made it harder to get rid of the culture of it.
Contador was banned but had already been suspended/not raced for a period of time that was then take off the two year ban - a bit like being in remand.
Some people don't believe Armstrong walked on the moon. Do you believe or do you doubt withoout concrete proof?
and some people think he walks on water
wonders why Lance is getting so much heat given that doping was so widespread, for so long, so widely denied by so many*
Well they caught many of the others [ and LA but it was brushed under the carpet or he was allowed a back dated medical cert despite saying on his forms he was not taking any medication at the time of entry ]and he was the winer and highest profile rider of the time ...who do you think they should target instead then?
I imagine winners do get more suspicion of drug cheating than loosers...why would you find that odd?
crazy-legs - Member
And here comes one of the denials from an accusation levelled in Hamilton's book:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9524663/Drug-accusations-made-by-Tyler-Hamilton-labelled-absurd-by-former-US-Postal-director.html
Have a read of what JV has commented about that (since Weltz now works for JV...)
And Contador lost a yellow jersey - not like he got off scott free.
A yellow jersey AND a pink one.
And Contador lost a yellow jersey - not like he got off scott free.
Still sends the wrong message. As soon as Contador tested positive, he should have been suspended from all racing pending the outcome of the case. As it was, he went off, won the Tour, won the 2011 Giro then finally had a ban slapped on him that was backdated to when he tested. So in other words, he still got all the racing in with the added mess and bad publicity of stripping him of his wins.
The whole system needs reworking inside out. Proper procedures, less of the legal back and forths, absolutely no leaks whatsoever from the labs that seem to give data out to random journalists and a complete ban on convicted dopers working as team managers, doctors, etc.
And the UCI could probably do with a good clean as well - lift up all the carpets and clean out everything that was swept underneath them...
Lance, latest have we done it yet.
Yep. To death.