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Just seen latest on Roadcc.
Controversial opinion there.
erm thanks for sharing
Lance is in the shit up to his ears and he knows it.
If I were him I'd just tell USADA (very pubicly) to go and * themselves. He's got the money and had the glory. * 'em.
then what? he can't just wash his hands of it.
Why not? What does he need from them?
I'd hazard a guess that he's a very wealthy man. I wouldn't waste another penny on the legal team nor another thought for USADA. Move somewhere nice and enjoy what's left. Bye bye USA (and USA taxes).
because his legacy means nothing to him 😕
His colossal ego wont let him do that- Livestrong is just an extension of that
If he just tries to walk away he'll be banned from competing - pretty much everywhere, including the triathlons he was doing to try and race in Hawaii...
Fair point Junky.
Personally I'd enthusiastically swap any legacy/reputation for happiness in paradise. Couldn't give a flyer what peoples opinions were.
I suppose it's not exactly a surprise that Lance is somewhat different to me/us.
tbh I think he has built up this persona as being the awesome cancer survivor who was unbeatable on a bike and he did it without cheating.
I think very few people with knowledge of cycling believes that but it is what defines him to everyone else.
he would go from coveted ubber celeb with life affirming story to just another drug cheat who won by cheating.
I dont think he will actually accept any decision that says he was guilty or ever admit it even if found guilty.
My opinion : He is still an awesome achievement but no way was he beating drug cheats and having them within his team without being one himself ...I think they all were at the time tbh and it is what he had to do to win. if one thing defines LA it is his desire to win at all costs
if one thing defines LA it is his desire to win at all costs
Well I suppose it worked for him.
We all pretty much think he cheated so none of this is really going to change our opinions of him is it?
I'd rather see the money spent dragging him through the courts/whatever spent on something more positive(!).
I'd rather see the money spent dragging him through the courts/whatever spent on something more positive(!).
Given that Armstrong used public money to do some of it I doubt that's going to happen.
I hope he gets exposed for what he is
If / when he is found guilty he won't be able to move somewhere nice and forget about it, as a lot of companies, government agencies etc etc will be after their money back.
If he is found guilty I can see him spending the rest of his life in court fighting various lawsuits...
Whole thing seems very political, whether you think he took drugs or not.
“There are troubling aspects of this case,” maintained Judge Sparks, “not least of which is USADA's apparent single-minded determination to force Armstrong to arbitrate the charges against him, in direct conflict with UCI's equally evident desire not to proceed against him."
So....as we know that pretty much everyone in the TDF in that era was cheating, is there going to be a period of time where there were no winners? No TDF? Should the results just be scrubbed from the record?
If he is found guilty I can see him spending the rest of his life in court fighting various lawsuits...
Sod that. I'd just ask some ropey government for asylum in their nice country. Plenty about.
Move somewhere nice and enjoy what's left. Bye bye USA (and USA taxes).
Watch the extradition orders and trumped up rape accusations roll in. 😉
UCI looking increasingly compromised in this matter
There could well be a case to answer the alleged fraudulent use of public money, however... It does also smack of vendetta's both personal and organisational.
I hope he gets exposed for what he is
An interesting comment which I take to mean you don't approve of his receipt of public money and how/where it was used?
He still beat all the other dopers (seven times - consecutively), so a relatively level playing field.
I would like to read his autobiog's at some stage, does he talk of 'marginal gains' anywhere?
If I read that right - The Judge has said he has to face his accusers in court, where they will wheel out all his druggie team mates (sore losers, who were caught) and they'll fling the mud hoping it'll stick with no evidence / failed drug tests, unless the USADA have tests that the UCI, TdF didn't release?
What if he proves he didn't take drugs, the Dunking Stool to prove he isn't a witch? 😕
Surely you want all of the cyclists of the era to also be exposed for what they are?
I mean, this isn't personal right?
UCI looking increasingly compromised in this matter
McQuaid and Verbruggen are crooks, plain and simple. Until they have no involvement in the sport it won't get any better.
So....as we know that pretty much everyone in the TDF in that era was cheating, is there going to be a period of time where there were no winners? No TDF? Should the results just be scrubbed from the record?
Not a bad idea you know.
where they will wheel out all his druggie team mates (sore losers, who were caught)
oh dear, do a bit of research will you. Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vaughters. Sore losers? were they ever caught?
Though my Lance bubble was burst some time ago it does seem to be a sort of get him at any costs process now. He should be sanctioned in some way but I can't help thinking that there is now a bit of the ducking stool going on and thats just the witnesses. That Jonathon Vaughters chappy has really gone down in my estimation. They should all be punished in the same way if they were in it together. Wonder what the job prospects are for the guy(s) that got Lance. The US seems to have a history of politically (with a small p) motivated prosecutions that undermines there justice system. For the Lance haters not saying he should not held accountable, just suggesting the ends do not justify the means.
were they ever caught?
Was Lance?
[i]What if he proves he didn't [/i]
You expect him to prove a negative?
Is a failed drugs test the only acceptable proof of doping to you?
What about Marion Jones?
Surely drug tests most days of his cycling life are proof enough? What's the point otherwise?
Surely you want all of the cyclists of the era to also be exposed for what they are?
I mean, this isn't personal right?
Most of them have been. No, it's not personal. I'm ambivalent about him.
So....as we know that pretty much everyone in the TDF in that era was cheating, is there going to be a period of time where there were no winners? No TDF? Should the results just be scrubbed from the record?
Exactly - what does it solve? Nothing. Where do you end up cos with most years of the TdF, you'd need to go way down the list before you found someone who hadn't doped (or at least, someone who had no proven connection to doping).
Pointless vendetta by an agency desperate to prove it's worth. Let it go, it's not doing cycling, USADA, the UCI or Lance any favours to keep it going. The actual question of "did he cheat by using performance enhancing drugs?" has long ago been lost.
It's just a mess of claim, counter claim, allegation and rumour and I doubt anyone (except probably Lance) knows or ever will know the full truth behind any of it.
Say all of his results were removed from the history of the sport. How would the results sheets look then?
Wiggins would have a 3rd place to go with his 1st place.
Taking it to the logical conclusion and remove all of the results of all of the people who have had drugs related bans and what are we left with?
Would Wiggins have been 1st or 2nd in that earlier TdF?
Expect this has been posted before but he raced in an era when virtually everyone was dirty. Even if he was doping he was still a great rider. I think he probably did but would prefer all the effort prosecuting him was put into stopping future doping instead
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So we think Wiggins has never taken drugs?
Is there evidence of any of the people he's beaten having taken drugs?
That argument is one used against Lance (^^up there)
Surely you want all of the cyclists of the era to also be exposed for what they are?
I mean, this isn't personal right?
The USADA have no interest in other [non US] TDF competitors or what will happen if he's retrospectively excluded from any results
If they manage to convict Armstrong of doping whilst on Uncle Sam's payroll, he'll be doing jail time
The US has always used plea bargaining as a matter of course in order to convict all and severely punish those that won't roll over. It often not advisable to plead not guilty [even if you are] given the severity of sentencing.
My knowledge, both current and historical, of the organisations involved is next to **** all, however I just wonder if this has more to do with people within USADA, the UCI and US Cycling really not liking each other, or certainly trying to right a wrong they feel they may have been dealt by another and Lance is a mere scapegoat.
"yossarian - Member
Surely you want all of the cyclists of the era to also be exposed for what they are?
I mean, this isn't personal right?
Most of them have been. No, it's not personal. I'm ambivalent about him."
I would suggest that you'll find that most of them have not been exposed, even domestic's were at it. Lots of noise in the press and very few people actually sanctioned from the Lance era. Indurain worked with Ferrari, no sanctions there. There are suspected to be many more who understood what was required for a level playing field, shame of it in a sport I love.
What is interesting is the blood doping thing and how far it goes back, even that there are rumours of family generational involvement. Then I supose it's just a reflection of society, some people(s) will do anything to win.
Steve - need to update F.Schlek
Lance did test positive for cortisone in 99 but the UCI acccepted a backdated medical certificate against its own rules. Lance has lied about not testing positive ever since. The UCI also accepted a backdated medical certificate against its own rules when Brochard won the world champs and tested positive. Indurain too. The UCI has a history of conspiring with teams and riders to cover up positive tests that would be bad for the sport's image.
Surely drug tests most days of his cycling life are proof enough?
Except for the fact that the drugs he is alleged to take had no drug test at the time and subsequent tests [ which can test for EPO] suggests he was positive. He has refused to let stored samples be tested for the drugs for some reason.
As for witch hunt - there is too some degree but it because he is seen as the most high profile one who got away and the vast amounts of circumstantial and other evidence to implicate him.
bad for the sport's image.
😀
Yeah, a few [i]more[/i] drugs cheats would totally ruin that.
I just wonder if this has more to do with people within USADA, the UCI and US Cycling really not liking each other, or certainly trying to right a wrong they feel they may have been dealt by another and Lance is a mere scapegoat.
He's a scapegoat that really set back cycling some way in the doping fight. He punished people who spoke out either on the road or off it. He has put himself out there as a clean rider and has made his fortune from that image and if (as lots of people suspect), it's a lie, the "biggest name in cycling" needs to be shown to not be above the consequences of the lying and doping.
I'm also someone who follows baseball and agree totally with the approach where "juiced" records get an asterisk explaining that it was during the steroid era from an admitted doper. I don't think you can strike the records completely but I think we will need to make a footnote that those years were not clean.
I'm also someone who follows baseball and agree totally with the approach where "juiced" records get an asterisk explaining that it was during the steroid era from an admitted doper. I don't think you can strike the records completely but I think we will need to make a footnote that those years were not clean.
This is what they did with Riis's '96 win - given that Ullrich was 2nd and Virenque was 3rd there'd not be much point reordering that one anyway. Perhaps they'd do the same for Armstrong if the ultimate outcome of all this is against him.
Though my Lance bubble was burst some time ago it does seem to be a sort of get him at any costs process now
He has kind made himself a target for what you describe by trying to build a reputation as Mr Clean.
If there is one thing that gets most peoples backs up it's someone who seems to have cheated and got away with it. Add in the boasts about not cheating and the massive fortune built on potentially tainted wins and you're going to have a string of indignant individuals lining up to knock you off your perch.
It wasn't just Lance that was drugged up all his team were if they wanted to be on the tour team they had to be on the same programme or they were replaced with someone who would.
Lance would have you believe he passed over 500 drug tests and passed everyone , that is rubbish he has never took that many and failed at least 2 which his mate Pat at the UCI made sure never came to light at the time.
Can forums be used in court as libel evidence? Just a thought as I'm sure Mr McQuaid will be pleased to know what you think of him.
Can forums be used in court as libel evidence? Just a thought as I'm sure Mr McQuaid will be pleased to know what you think of him.
A dangerous road for Mr McQuaid to tread, it's what did for Oscar Wilde.
Pretty sure McQuaid has far more to worry about when the details come out about this case, to be concerned about a couple of posts on a mtb forum.. payments made to the UCI, alleged covered up test results etc.
Be interesting to see who Armstrong tries to throw under the bus, the UCI, Bruyneel etc.
Personally I think he won't actually contest it, just so the details don't come out, but will continue to deny everything until the grave.
given the cost of a court case I would suggest it'd a dangerous road for anyone. McQuaid would possibly have the UCI funds to play with and is some what wealthier than most of us.
And therin lies the problem with Lance. He has won cases againt the likes of his Irish kiné because he could pay a better legal team even though we have no reason to doubt the honesty of the poor woman he so spitefully attacked with his legal might. Same for the Andreus.
Ulrich won against Werner Frank which was very obviously a miscarriage of German justice at the time, but Frank was later vindicated and I hope got far more back than the 50 000e losing the first case cost him. Ulrich is another dispicable pile of justice abusing... .
He's a scapegoat that really set back cycling some way in the doping fight. He punished people who spoke out either on the road or off it. He has put himself out there as a clean rider and has made his fortune from that image and if (as lots of people suspect), it's a lie, the "biggest name in cycling" needs to be shown to not be above the consequences of the lying and doping.
Yep, I can see your point, thanks, I hadn't considered that.
I'm also someone who follows baseball and agree totally with the approach where "juiced" records get an asterisk explaining that it was during the steroid era from an admitted doper. I don't think you can strike the records completely but I think we will need to make a footnote that those years were not clean.
Gets my vote too. 🙂
A dangerous road for Mr McQuaid to tread, it's what did for Oscar Wilde.
Has McQuaid been bumming the aristocracy? How did I miss that?
Can forums be used in court as libel evidence? Just a thought as I'm sure Mr McQuaid will be pleased to know what you think of him.
I'm fairly sure you can't sue for libel if the alleged libellous comments are true.
this everyone was attiude does no one any favors and its far far from the truth. i raced through out the 90's and was never offered drugs never saw drugs never heard of anyone using drugs and yet when i was ill visited my GP, upon learning i was racing his first words were.. what drugs do you use and how often.. i said id never seen them he refused to believe me saying i had typical symtoms.. that'd be the steroids you gave me for 10 yrs for excema says I.. no chance he said..
everyone believes every rider takes drugs and it simply isnt/ wasnt true.
7 wins that's all I'm sayin
"dodgy seller"
( that's all I'm sayin')
Lol. There was no drug problem in cycling in the 90s? 😆
There's drug problems in cycling [i]Now[/i]
Some dude was using epo recently for strava wasn't he?
So....as we know that pretty much everyone in the TDF in that era was cheating, is there going to be a period of time where there were no winners? No TDF? Should the results just be scrubbed from the record?
Not a bad idea you know.
You sir are a buffoon.
Can forums be used in court as libel evidence? Just a thought as I'm sure Mr McQuaid will be pleased to know what you think of him.
LOL , you should vist cyclingnews forum and go onto the clinc sub section it will open your eyes about the UCI and Lance cover up .But if you belive Lance is cleaner than clean I would give it a miss.
2 pages in and nothing new. Can we wait until something actually happens or do we have to run the whole thing again every week. Do people just cut & paste or have we learnt what we are going to say and how the thread plays out by now.
Cyclist May or May not (nothing proven IN LAW yet) have taken Drugs
Governing Body doesn't want to pursue
USADA Does
Still nothing actually happened
10 Pages by breakfast or my money back!
2 pages in and nothing new. Can we wait until something actually happens or do we have to run the whole thing again every week.
Reading and posting here is optional - just in case you thought it was mandatory 😉
Let me get this straight. If he had to go to arbitration- The USADA can find Lance guilty on the basis of dopers giving evidence against him who are looking for a lesser sentance (but with an obvious personal axe to grind) with NO chemical proof at all?
So he could be stripped of his titles with no actual physical proof just the word of tainted competitors?
That is absolutely ****ing madness.
He could be stripped and classed as a doper even though he never failed a test? WTF.
How is that fair? First Cancer attacked him, then this. That man has had to fight most of his adult life and you wonder why he has an abrasive character to some?
Hincapie has an axe to grind against Lance? How come?
No he has failed drug tests in the tour they were covered up
Also some people righty or wrongly have suggested his cancer was due to all his drug taking it is said he was on the drugs long before he turned to pro cycling .
So he could be stripped of his titles with no actual physical proof just the word of tainted competitors?
They are called witnesses. If I murder someone and 10 people stand up in court and say they saw me do it, that would usually be enough to convict even if there is no physical evidence. It would probably only fail if the witnesses could be proven to be lying - e.g. if the witness could be proven to be not there at the time.
Maybe he is abrasive and aggressive because of all the drugs he has (allegedly) taken?
If I murder someone and 10 people stand up in court and say they saw me do it
If convicted drug dealers, murders and a rapist stood up in court would they make viable and credible witnesses to the specific crime?
As they lay their hand on the bible to give the oath could you look at them and say 'oh yes of course they are honest citizens giving an oath with no ulterior motives at play?
No he has failed drug tests in the tour they were covered up
Also some people righty or wrongly have suggested his cancer was due to all his drug taking it is said he was on the drugs long before he turned to pro cycling .
Wow. Thank you. Could you also tell me is Elvis is still alive?
hora, we get you're a fanboi but I would LOVE to hear how Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, Vande Velde and Vaughters have an axe to grind. In fact, Hincapie has nothing to gain from coming forward as his career is over anyway. You have the floor, don't disappoint
First Cancer attacked him, then this.
Cancer is a bastard and nobody deserves it. He deserves the USADA case against him. Don't equate the two, it trivialises cancer and makes you look like a nutter.
Hincapie has an axe to grind against Lance? How come?
Lance got all his team to work to bring back time on Hincaple who was in a break and would have got the leaders jersey in the Tour de France if they had not chased hard, is just one reason.
Cancer is a bastard and nobody deserves it. He deserves the USADA case against him. Don't equate the two, it trivialises cancer and makes you look like a nutter.
Hes been attacked pretty much since his first tour win on his comeback. The whisperers started.
How does this fact make me a nutter?
The floors mine but the walls, ceiling and sky belong to the smackheads and their supporters.
No he has failed drug tests in the tour they were covered up
This gets mentioned a lot, do you have a source for it?
Right, but the 10 men are his team mates.. So even if they are tainted by drug use (& are lying) then we are left with the situation with Lance's entire team, including his right hand man, are on drugs & he is the only one who isn't?
hora - so, tell us about how the current and former riders have an axe to grind and how they're perjuring themselves for some perceived gain. I don't trust Landis or Hamilton but I don't see any benefit to that lot confessing to doping and implicating Lance unless it was true.
Lol @ Higgo!
Hora if his entire team admits to systematic doping being carried out by US Postal/Discovery etc then why shouldn't Lance be charged? Are we to believe that everybody on the team but him were doping?
I don't really care about his legacy etc-I've got cancer survivors in my family whom will always be much bigger 'heros' to me. At the end of the day, his cycling career needs to be judged solely on what he did as a cyclist and not take into account his cancer. You can't go giving his victories to other riders because in most years the majority of the top 10 have already been popped. Just stick a load of asterix by his wins and move on-he needs to be brought to justice to ensure a cleaner future for the sport though.
I'm thinking that he will just accept the ban without challenging it, say that it was pointless contesting as everyone was out to get him, and continue to spout the 'most tested athlete in history and never a positive test' line to the grave...
The same people who subsequently failed drugs tests and he didn't?
I'm a firm believer in if you are found guilty beyond reasonable doubt then you are guilty.
In a court you wouldn't be found guilty because we think you probably did it we think and then ruined for life would you?
Who on US Postal failed a drug test Hora? Other than Landis.....
this case - despite armstrong's spin - is not just about armstrong - 5 people are accused here including doctors, the hog and armstrong - they are accused of using & supplying drugs up to and including 2008, its not just a witchunt to strip armstrong of his titles.
The only reason its gone on this long is that armstrong is doing everything in his power not to stand up and have to face his accusers, this finally has failed, he has to decide by tomorrow what his next course of action is. The other reason its gone on so long is he has the deepest pockets, his attorneys have represented Bush in the past, the judge (Sparks) was actually appointed by Bush - this was LA's last stand.
As I understand it now if it goes to arbitration LA chooses his attorney, USADA choose theirs and then they both have to agree on an independent.
Re the witnesses there are 10 who have already given their statements these include ex teammates, employees of USPS and non cycling related witnesses. As has been said the likes of hincappe arent sore losers - LA has been trying all sorts of tactics to confirm who the witnesses are - hence McQuaids embarassing interlude in the last coupel of weeks, shouting about jurisdiction - the UCI have had the same evidence just didnt bother doing anything about it until last week oddly..?!
And if the rumours are correct Tyler Hamiltons forthcoming book should make interesting reading, if only for the fact its being published depsite LA's attorney's best efforts (again!)
Who on US Postal failed a drug test Hora? Other than Landis.....
I said subsequently.
Most of his ex team mates only admitted they and lance took drugs and did blood transfusion when they were interview by the Feds and they faced jail if they lied .
Which of Lance's teammates have ever tested positive then Hora?
Non Stop Nun - MemberLance got all his team to work to bring back time on Hincaple who was in a break and would have got the leaders jersey in the Tour de France if they had not chased hard, is just one reason.
I'm no lance fan, but isn't that the exact opposite of what happened that day?
Lance was hugely critical of the other teams who were chasing (Garmin, Lotto). It was a mess of a stage. Cav was disqualified to make it an even worse day for HTC.
Hincapie - Never confessed publicly, no positive tests
Leipheimer - One positive test in 96 before he went to US Postal. No other admissions/positives
Zabriskie - Never confessed publicly, no positive tests
Vande Velde - Never confessed publicly, no positive tests
Vaughters - Only confessed publicly a week or so ago, no positive tests
So, if all of them admit to doping and say Lance was doping too, I can see how you would see them as tainted 🙄
Who would you need to testify in order to believe them