[Closed] Labour want's you to log your travel plans!!

This is very, very scary. I heard about it a while ago and can't believe that there isn't a HUGE stink about it. Apathy is the government's ally here.

The proposals that I heard include collecting details (address, phone number etc) of all the places that you are staying. Not sure how this is going to work as we tend to just take off to France and stay where the mood takes us. Is this now to be illegal?

The information that I should like to be able to give is

Destination: Greece [insert country of your choice]
Departure Date: 16/03/2009
Duration of Stay: indefinite
Return Date: N/A

It really does bother me that it would be quite easy to stop us travelling abroad at all, although that would clearly be bad for trade etc.

Let's get this bunch of totalitarian b*st*rds out before they introduce any more dangerous curtailments of our so-called liberties.

Yes, but we'll only get another bunch of totalitarian bastards in their place.

Not just travel details, they also want to store the payment methods you used for up to 7 years on their databases. That means any card you use (or intend to use) overseas will need to be registered with them, I'm assuming if you don't supply the details they'll just get it from your Bank or card provider.

Previously it's been the US who were at the forefront of invasive information gathering but their new system collects all the info they need without going to the (quite terrifying) lengths that this lot have in mind.

Why do you think there's been no fuss made about this? It certainly isn't an accident or an oversight.

And I swear to God that if one smartass appears on TV saying "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" I'll find them and do nasty things to them.

[i]They will be expected to use the internet to send their details each time they leave the country and would face a fine of up to £5,000 should they fail to do so[/i]

so what happens if you don't have access to the internet? How are you supposed to do that?

And how are you supposed to [i]know[/i] that you have to do this? Are we all suddenly Telegraph readers?

yet another nanny-state "we know best" erosion of our civil liberties.

RudeBoy - Member
Yes, but we'll only get another bunch of totalitarian bastards in their place.

Sometimes you say some sensible things, RB, but this ain't one of them.

I am guessing that you don't vote, as a mate of mine who doesn't vote says similar things to what you've just said.

This kind of dangerous ignorance is EXACTLY what allows governments to introduce whatever they like virtually unopposed.

Perhaps, given the seriousness of the threat to our (so-called) civil liberties, it would be more intelligent to find out which, if any, party or parties are opposed to this legislation, and ID cards, and any other oppressive legislation, and see whether they would scrap it or not introduce it in the first place if elected.

As I said in my first post, apathy is the government's friend. I'll add ignorance to the list of allies.

*puts tin foil hat on*

absolutely batty. The only reason that I cna think of to try and push tosh like this through is to create legislation so extreme that the watered down version that you may finally get passed contains the stuff that the government really wanted in the first place.

Hell, even the travel information that the US gathers is targetted at visitors to the country, not at it's citizens travelling overseas. Seems we assume that the bad 'uns are already here. Maybe sorting out the border issue for inbound passengers first would be a sensible idea.

Your as bad as RB, winstonsmith.

It's not a matter of 'tin-foil hats', it's about our civil liberties being even further curtailed and an(other) extension of the surveliiance society in which we live.

Wake up and smell the coffee (if it's not too late): it's been brewing for a long time now.

"so what happens if you don't have access to the internet? How are you supposed to do that?"

There is free Internet access at all public libraries.

I take it then, barca, that you have no problems with the proposed legislation? Oh, I really hope that your comment was tongue in cheek...

lets start with the small things and work up...

[wishes quietly for correct punctuation. want's: wtf?]

i'd be amazed if much of this makes it to the front line - how many things get 'announced' never to come to pass.

that said, it does seem as if it wold be a PITA. also, as said above, what if you change plans/didn't really have plans to start with?

well, i tried to see exactly what information they are wanting to collect in the way of 'travel plans', but i haven't quite managed yet. can you tell me more JulianA? hotels you'll stay at? visits to local museums? any coach tours you plan?

can you tell me what they'll do with this information?

i'd just assumed this had always been done

oh, and you need to read the para above it to understand the register on the internet bit:

[i]Yachtsmen, leisure boaters, trawlermen and private pilots will be given until 2014 to comply with the programme.

They will be expected to use the internet to send their details each time they leave the country and would face a fine of up to £5,000 should they fail to do so. [/i]

No, my comment was a long way from being tongue in cheek. I'll say it again with the sternest expression I can muster.

There is free Internet access at all public libraries.

I'm still digesting the personal implications of the proposal. I don't have any major objections as yet, maybe a few questions but I'm still reading through it.

OK, winstonsmith, try this one:

[url] http://www.****/news/article-493912/Terror-crackdown-Passengers-forced-answer-53-questions-BEFORE-travel.html [/url].

Granted, it's the Daily Hate, but there is this one as well:

[url] http://networksecurityip.wordpress.com/2007/11/15/90-facts-travellers-must-tell-officials/ [/url]

Don't know quite how they are proposing to use the information or whether current IT is up to processing, archiving and retrieving the information but I'd rather not find out too late.

What made you think that this is done already? Have you ever handed over information like this in the past?

Just realised the irony of your questions in the light of your moniker!

ok I'll start....
In August I intend to go to [url= http://www.bigbikebash.co.uk/ ] The Big Bike Bash [/url]with the rest of my family.

My PA is not going to be at all happy. Yet more work when I travel.

Barca, I don't care if there is free internet access in public libraries (or even at home): it seems to me a clear breach of such civil liberties as we supposedly enjoy to wish to collect all this information.

I suppose that people who never want to travel again might not have a problem with this legislation...

On a different tack, if the information has been collected, you have left the country and someone leaves a CD of this information on a train, anyone with an inclination towards breaking into your house is going to have a pretty clear run... But that's getting away from the original point: this is a(nother) gross infringement of our civil liberties.

Like to know how they intend to store it all as they cannot get any of their data storage systems to work, then it will all fall over and it will cost billions to put right.Do i think the cons or the libs will put a stop to it if they get in power no they will not, they will not have time what with how much they are going to scam the tax payers for their houses and free flights flower pots ect and that lovable pension they are all on. Oh and they also want the information from your sat navs if you use a call center to supply your routes but with all the little cameras appearing on motorways towns and major roads that take your numberplate details big brother is here and unless the people rebel it will never go away

What are the symptoms or consequences of having your civil liberties breached?

I intend to go on a camping holliday in the northern mountains of ****stan next year, whilst there i may join a group of friends on an excursion into Afganistan.

I intend to travel in a large crowded aeroplane over several large cities, contained withing my hand luggae wil be several 3ltr bottles of cheep coke and a packet of inegestion tablets.

My toaster tells me to overdo the toast:
Glory be to the toaster; Praise be to the toaster; there is no kitchen utensil but the toaster; and the toaster is most great, is dearer to me than everything on which the toast rises.

barca - Member
What are the symptoms or consequences of having your civil liberties breached?

If you have to ask the question you wouldn't understand the answer.

don't get me wrong JulianA, i have a deep loathing and mistrust of labour and their need for information and control. if i'm forced to have an id card, it's likely to get accidently microwaved.

but frankly i think this will be too big and unwieldy to do anything useful/sinister with

checking the ons: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=4783

in 2002 there were 175,377,000 arrivals and departures from uk airports and ports. i'd imagine it's a bit higher now. that's rather a large data set for a government that employs numpties like eds for their it solutions to manage and data mine for anything other than checking a small list of 'undesirables' (who are likely to use false id anyway) or to find out what happened after the fact.

Benjamin Franklin:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Paraphrased many times:

They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.
If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both.
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.
Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.
Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.

From Wikipedia (not my favourite source)

[url] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin [/url]

Winstonsmith

In the US in the run up to the war with Iraq, peace protestors (and often highly visible spokes people in organisations such as Greenpeace) found their names on the US terrorists "watch list". These people would get stopped at airports and would be unable to fly, meaning that they missed media appointments and other speaking engagements.

You could say I am reading too much into this, but that is one very obvious way the government can hinder people who are battling against what they perceive as injustices and wrongs.

The other thing that this could potentially be tied into is the electronic banking system that some people are predicting is going to be put into place should the current global banking system collapse. It will not just be an ID card you will need, but you will not be able to use cash anymore for transactions.

So yeah, the government will have ways not only to monitor us, but heavily restrict many people too by a variety of mechanisms.

There now follows two or three posts with references to tin foil hats......

Fair comment, winstonsmith, but I refer back to a part of my previous post...

Don't know quite how they are proposing to use the information or whether current IT is up to processing, archiving and retrieving the information but I'd rather not find out too late.

If these new measures were aimed at muslims or people with foreign sounding names, then fair enough - it would makes sense.

After all, most people accept that these types sometimes have to be locked up without charge - which law abiding Daily Mail reader would disagree with that ?

But to treat a free-born Englishman in such a way is an outrage 🙁

barca

Civil liberties are freedoms that protect the individual from the government and set limits for government so that it cannot abuse its power and interfere with the lives of its citizens.

Common civil liberties include the rights of people, freedom from religion, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech, and additionally, the right to due process, to a fair trial, to own property, and to privacy.

[Copied from Wikipedia]

If these values are compromised the quality of your life will be severely compromised. Trust between the individual and the state will be damaged. A coherent, healthy society is based on mutual trust. The effectiveness of law and order to promote fairness will also vanish.

These are the consequences.

Well said WWJR. And thank you.

WWJR, a good post, but the wrong tense. You used the future.....

What a joke, this is rediculous.

I wondered when CFH would be back around - welcome, sir, and well observed.

The thing I like about this thread is that there has been measured debate and no-one has descended into abuse.

A possible first for STW? Seems as though many people are happy to discuss this one. Could it translate into votes at the next election?

[i]There is free Internet access at all public libraries[/i]

is there really? well every day's a school day.

But what if you don't have access to t'internet at home and,(1) like me, you don't (didn't) know that "There is free Internet access at all public libraries*" and (2) you don't know about this fantastic new rule.

imagine the scenario, you've just checked in for your holiday-in-a-lifetime, and when doing so your details are automatically passed to the e-border people.
"hello hello hello, what have we here? Mr Smith hasn't told us his travel plans, yet it appears that he's about to get on a flight to Australia/California/Jersey/etc. Right lads, bring him in. I reckon it'll take us about, oo, 2 & half hours to get the truth out of him.
What's that you say, Jones, 'but that will make him miss his flight'? Well he should have told us where he was going, then, shouldn't he?"

* disclaimer - I haven't felt the need to go into a public library for a few years now.
Borrow some books? Why borrow, you cheapskate? buy em!
Free Internet Access? Really? I didn't know you could... etc etc
** and yes I'm sure there are hundreds of other reasons to go to a library, but I haven't found them yet

winstonsmith do you work for eds or the other big company doing government IT projects. Just wondered as I know a few people working on them in Newcastle (DWP, HMRC?)

CFH

I used the Audacity of Hope!

What once was may yet come again!

The question I'd really like answered is exactly what they aim to gain by collecting this information. Seriously, do they not think those that ARE up to know good won't be able to come by false documents?

Ah, perhaps this is another way for them to worm in the national DNA database as well as the biometric ID card...

Paranoid? Perhaps but you've got to admit it's a possibility.

So the idea of this is to catch criminals? so if this was implemented surly criminals would then just not leave the country in a conventional way through fear of getting caught? We are still going to have criminals just wiser ones...

This is a waste of effort and money.

And i find it outrageous that they expect everyone to now use a computer/internet! what about people with no need to use a computer, what about people with disabilites, do they have go travel 50 miles and stand in a long que or something if they want to travel at short notice?

IWH

Totally agree with you.

Paranoia is just awareness ramped up.

Mr Smith hasn't told us his travel plans, yet it appears that he's about to get on a flight to Australia/California/Jersey/etc.

IIRC you'd have had to fill in details online for the US & Australian part of your trip [ETAs] so even if you had slipped past the storm troopers the Yanks or the Aussies would get you

Spain has similar rules too

I'll never vote Conservative but I've also now completely lost faith in Labour. Seems every other week something like this comes out, CCTV, monitoring your internet, police and council officer anti terrorism powers, detention without charge, DNA, photographing us but not them, hasseling protesters and press, billions set-aside for new databases, the list goes on and a lot of it is pushed through so called environmental bills. At least when Miliband was in charge.

Still not sure if it's the Ministry of Information or Police empire building or some other hidden agenda, either way the Gov has clearly got impaired judgement when it comes to measures against potential terrorist threats.

Talk of practicalities or effectiveness or data leaks are red herrings, the issue here is the Government has failed in their responsibility to protect our liberties. And lost our trust, well mine anyway.

If you've got the time, have a listen to this fella - not sure what to make of it myself

http://www.tpuc.org/node/558

tinribz - Member
I'll never vote Conservative but I've also now completely lost faith in Labour.

Which way will you vote then (and why not Conservative?)

Just please don't stop voting: that way Labour WILL get back in!

Is there a real & viable alternative to the Conservatives? As far as I'm concerned the Libs are still a wasted vote, Labour will end up taking away what 'rights' we have left and the Conservatives will do what they always do and protect themselves and those of their 'class'.

Three party politics isn't working. But what's the alternative?

I'd never vote Tory

After what they did to my & other families in this part of the world in the early 80s will remain unforgivable for me & many others for a long time yet.

[i]Spain has similar rules too [/i]

really? last time I went (2005) - to Menorca - I don't recall anything like that.
It was a "package" holiday - the tour operator did everything in exchange for money and name/address details.

Does that mean the tour operator fills in all that stuff? without asking your permission?

Or do you sign it away when you accept the Ts & Cs? I mean, how many of us really really read the the Terms & Conditions, apart from the bits about cancellations, refunds (or lack of), etc

right that's it. after this summer's trip to Canada, I'm not ever ever ever going out of Yorkshire again. except to visit the in-laws.

Spain has similar rules too

Similar rules to the US & Oz that is - where you must supply advanced travel information in an electronic format before you travel there - not similar to what the UK gov wants to do in recording who leaves

Spain only brought the rule in last year

will remain unforgivable for me & many others for a long time yet.

This doesnt make sense to me - the past is the past, if they currently offer a better alternative to Labour then why not vote for the better alternative? That, to me, is senseless. Cutting off your nose to spite your face etc. I dont care how you vote but to choose based on past policy is very odd in my mind.

Back to the original point, what happens if you change your plans mid travel (i.e. backpackers etc?)

but to choose based on past policy is very odd in my mind.

Yes, it's always best not to learn lessons from the past.

How otherwise, could history ever repeat itself ?

Both parties have issues that have been learned from, assuming that voting for one of them will cause a repeat of it is rediculous. Using that mentality you must really distrust Germans.

Gosh, am I wrong to mistrust Nazis and fascists ?

Best give them another chance then - they might be a bit nicer next time .....

[i]Using that mentality you must really distrust Germans[/i]

well if Chamberlain had distrusted them a bit more...

however, not all Germans are Nazis & fascists. We have plenty of those of our own 🙁

Dunno if this is UK's implementation of pan-EU rules being implemented for all air (and ferry?) travel, that got blown out of all proportion?

Am i right in thinking there's no border check between NI and Ireland? If so I'll gladly travel via Dublin+Belfast between UK and Elsewhere.

Glad I live in Schengen area now. Can travel by road from the Gib-Spain border all the way to Estonia through half of what was behind iron curtain or a war zone not so many years ago, with border controls about as strict as between England and Scotland. But going to/from my own home country I feel I have to justify/prove my reasons for returning.

Never voted Labour. Never will.

I watched a repeat of Top Gear earlier today where Clarkson compared Brown to Stalin, seems he was right, one of Stalin's policies was restrict movement of Russias population.
This government has damaged MY country so badly I'm afraid for my childrens future. Its frightening that I could get into trouble to the tune of 5k for not filling out a form before I go on holiday FFS!!!!
Anybody who votes Labour after this lot is a complete ****in kent, end of chat. I mean whats going on? this isnt what New Labour was sold to us as is it????

Maybe Clarkson should stand for Parliament, that would save us!

Cue civil service job adverts for'Travel Plan Co-ordinators',@ £80k plus bonus....

I watched a repeat of Top Gear earlier today where Clarkson compared Brown to Stalin

So I'm not the only one who watches repeats of Top Gear to get an in-depth political analyses of the current situation in Britain today - Cool 8)

Gosh, am I wrong to mistrust Nazis and fascists ?

Best give them another chance then - they might be a bit nicer next time .....

Bad analogy, but same essential point. There's plenty of stupid things been done by labour, just as the conservatives, so why stick by one and not the other?

There's plenty of stupid things been done by labour, just as the conservatives, so why stick by one and not the other?

I think you need to put that question to Uplink - he's the one who said, quote :

[i]"After what they did to my & other families in this part of the world in the early 80s will remain unforgivable for me & many others for a long time yet.[/i]"

Personally I don't see a problem with his statement but apparently you coffeeking, are under some bizarre impression that the Tories have said, "We are sorry for what we did in the early 80s, we should never have done those things, we made mistakes, and we will never pursue those sorts of policies again".

The question was essentially to Uplink, but you jumped in with a similar comment...

I'm not under any impressions, but I've yet to see Labour apologise for any of its mistakes either. Political parties rarely apologise for their mistakes, usually trying to hand off the blame to the previous government. Thats normal. The point is that the only things that they (the current leadership and members) can be held accountable for, should they get into power, would be their policies in any preceeding election campaign. Previous form, decades ago, could be held well and truly against both parties.

Labour is so yesterday so I am voting for other party in the next election. Not sure who yet as I am a swing voter.

So some terrorists are trying to blow us up and now we are all being "quarantined" WTF! Shouldn't that be the other way round?

Just like the present economy climate ... the rich mess it up and the ordinary folks pay for it. WTF!

I think the world has gone mad again.

🙄

[i]winstonsmith do you work for eds or the other big company doing government IT projects. Just wondered as I know a few people working on them in Newcastle (DWP, HMRC?)[/i]

christ no! i work very much on the other side, giving benefit advice to individuals. i'm scared of my privacy being eroded and worried about the infringement of personal rights and freedoms. i just don't see this as being that big (aside from collecting credit card details). saying it's 53 pieces of information collected each time sounds a lot, but it's probably just 53 fields in a database: ie, mr winston smith is 3 data fields/pieces of info, not 1

lots of countries' immigration procedures collect info on you and the purpose of visit. i just don't think this is that sinister

Yes winstonsmith, mr, winston and smith are indeed three columns in a database, but it would appear that you didn't bother to read the other fifty or so column names...

If you can't see how this is sinister, I really don't think you can be intelligent enough to hand out advice to anybody about anything.

You appear to have learned to love Big Brother just as your namesake did.

I've been doing quite a bit of reading on this over the weekend and the powers that they have to collect and store information and the potential uses for what they now want to collect in addition to their existing record keeping are bloody scary.

If this goes unchecked we're no more than 2 - 3 years away from the logical next step in the expansion of the scheme which is adding DNA to the travel database 'in the interests of increased security'.

From there it's a very short leap to profiling of travellers and then we'll see the restrictions come into force "I'm terribly sorry Sir, your profile suggests that you aren't of the right socio-economic class to be allowed overseas travel. Might I recommend Skegness"?

We're seeing the early stages of the removal of our right to free travel which is a very early stage of them putting up internal checkpoints and borders. The scary thing to my mind is that they snuck the early groundwork for these laws and restrictions through with the anti-terror bills after September 11th (and those they implemented before hand) - the London 'Ring of Steel' for example - you can expect them popping up all over the Country.

I know this sounds like the paranoid rantings of a conspiracy theorist but think about it - it's all happening! 10 years ago if you'd been told that your surfing habits and emails were going to be monitored and stored for 'security purposes' you'd have laughed - and now it's happening. Same with text messages and IM sessions, the technology is in place (and in some cases being used) to monitor phonecalls.

Any freedoms we still have are an illusion, and are rapidly fading.

*polishes tin foil window screen*

And another thing:

"The e-Borders scheme has already screened over 82m passengers [i]travelling to Britain[/i], leading to more than 2,900 arrests, for crimes including murder, drug dealing and sex offences. e-borders helps the police catch criminals attempt to escape justice."

Travelling TO Britain. Not from it.

Do we now meet the requirements to claim political asylum I wonder? Surely this is a valid fear of harrassment and persecution by the Government.

Your having a laugh. How can Labour even manage/filter all the information? Impossible, sounds like a Think-tank/consultancy sold them the idea and is now planning a huge IT project to manage this....

Labour really are absolutely incompetent. Nick Leeson should become a Government advisor.

As far as I'm concerned the Libs are still a wasted vote

I never understand this point of view. I for example have a LibDem MP and a LibDem local council. If you like their policies, vote for them.

The e-Borders scheme has already screened over 82m passengers travelling to Britain, leading to more than 2,900 arrests, for crimes including murder, drug dealing and sex offences. e-borders helps the police catch criminals attempt to escape justice.

So, what's the betting that the vast majority of those 2900 arrests where people who hadn't paid parking tickets...

With 82 million people screened only 2900 arrests is a shocking clear up rate. Doesn't justify the expense or the time they'll need to invest in the scheme.

If they want to make the borders secure then expand the IRIS scheme they've got at Heathrow but make it for outgoing as well as incoming. I'd happily have my retina scanned and attached to my passport file so there could be no doubt it was me using my documents. Of course, if they did that then they wouldn't be able to collect all the sneaky bits of information they want for the Police databases.

I'm beginning to wonder who's in charge of who - the Police running the Government or the other way around. Aren't they supposed to serve US?