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What is your measure of a collapsed economy? And when?
10-20% less tax revenue within 2 years of brexit.
So what's your plan?
well having just seen the breaking news it's a masterpiece, all weekend and they failed to come up with a coherent message, what they stand for and what they will be doing differently.
So one of them just stood up and said labour is a racist party. And they want people to take them seriously? The party that has fought racism and prejudice for a century, is now suddenly racist because 7 MP have just realised that they are in the wrong party. I'd have a lot more respect for this lot if they just admitted that they misunderstood what the labour party represents and that they don't agree with it. But no, they have to brand old colleagues and thousands of activists as racists and bigots. They should resign their seats and let the voters decide. They won't of course, because they're cowards.
@ Mike - Are you truly expecting a new manifesto on day 1?
It isn't day one, unless you have been in a coma for the past 2 years.
Are you truly expecting a new manifesto on day 1?
I'd expect a little more that a whinge, do they have a collective belief or are they 7 individuals who agree on nothing?
If you have the plan to resign on the same day the least you could do is get a proper press release ready to go.
I suspect these seven have just signed the death warrant on their political careers. And in a few cases, it won’t be any great loss. But this is a very bad moment for the Labour Party. Parties do not split under competent leadership.
For me, their mistake is in doing this too early. They should have waited until after Brexit happens (which is looking ever more likely).
Bit early to set out their stall if they're planning on expanding their membership with non-nutter Tories.
I’d expect a little more that a whinge, do they have a collective belief or are they 7 individuals who agree on nothing?
They've called themselves a group of independent MPs. That would imply they're all standing with no party allegiance, not even to each other. So the group has no manifesto, because then they wouldn't be independent.
@ deadlydarcy - And who is standing against Brexit at the moment? Surely someone should be shouting at Jeremy and the tories with their ERG inspired Brexit now? If not now, when?
I applaud their move. They are a group of politicians that believe in something and have made a stand. Maybe more will follow, who knows? Somebody had to do something surely?
I don't blame them for leaving and they're being very reasonable in what they're saying. Who knows what, if anything happens next.
Certainly with chaos in Parliament and both major parties plus voter dissatisfaction across the board there has never been a better time to try to kick start a new party *if* that's where this leads.
I applaud their move. They are a group of politicians that believe in something and have made a stand.
Which is what?
They should have waited until after Brexit happens
If you want to stop Brexit happening, waiting until after it's happened is a poor strategy.
I suspect these seven have just signed the death warrant on their political careers.
Their careers were already dead. Anyone ever heard of Angela Smith and Mike Gapes before? We all know about Leslie and Umunna throwing their dummies out of the pram after the centrists lost their stranglehold on the party. Berger will be booted out by liverpool voters at the first opportunity. No doubt because all scousers are anti-semites. What they won't admit is that they are where they are because the centrist politics they advocate completely failed to address the issues important to normal working people who the labour party are supposed to represent. I'll say again, if they really do believe they are right, then they should resign their seats and let the voters decide.
If I worked for an incompetent old man who was helping my main competitor at my company’s expense I’d be tempted to look for another job too.
And who is standing against Brexit at the moment?
Not these clowns, they have muddled their supposed "anti-brexit" message, if they were genuinly anti-brexit they would have my full support, but they are just using it as an excuse to take down Corbyn and make labour tory lite again.
If you want to stop Brexit happening, waiting until after it’s happened is a poor strategy.
If they want to stop Brexit they need to convince a lot of Labour MPs to vote with them. As in the Peston quote above, this doesn't look like a very good way of doing that!
Have they been bribed by May? Is this where some of the extra money she was going to find for some Labour constituencies has gone?
(I don't have an opinion on this, and don't know the MPs involved, but it would be a classic British Establishment divide and conquer move)
Not these clowns, they have muddled their supposed “anti-brexit” message
I'm listening to the conference right now. They are very clearly Anti-Brexit, there's no muddle whatsoever.
@ Mike – HTH’s
The one I'd already read, not really, nothing positive, nothing about what they hoop to achieve, just they are all going to do it on their own. It's not the start of something new, it's just a wandering off into the bushes.
Mike Gapes said: "I am sickened that Labour is now perceived by many as a racist, anti-Semitic party."
And why exactly is that..... Do many people actually believe that - most I've read or seen don't at all.
I enjoyed the bit where Umunna was banging on about the importance of sticking together. He did well to keep a straight face.
With rumours of a snap election before long it's going to be hilarious to see this mob booted out and then quickly forgotten about.
**** idiots, quit because of the handling of brexit I understand, but bringing up the bullshit antisemitism charges just shows their real motivation is not about doing the right thing for the electorate.
so you know better than John McDonnell then, as he seems to think that there is a problem ? :
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/john-mcdonnell-rebukes-labour-anti-semitism-smears/
You anti-semitism deniers remind me of the lance armstrong deniers 🙂
be intersting to see how Labour leadership respond, double down or try & find a solution?
I cant see any Tory Mps seriously thinking about joining them. AT least not until the Brexit final destination is clear, Soubry, Grieve etc would only do it if the ERG get their way & force a hard brexit.
The flip side to that would be Mays deal or an even softer Brexit prompting the ERG to go over to UKIP
Looking at the SDP split even the Tories unhappy with their leadership didnt join (1 did?)
After the SDP split tho, Foot resigned & LAbour dropped their anti EEC & nuclear dissarmamnet policies, but the SDP MPs never returned.
If Corbyn were to go I can see most of these MPs coming back, thered be a momentum backlash though. compared to Tory MPs, where its much easier to flip between UKIP & Con.
Tory policy is still deporting the windrush generation over the governments own paperwork mishap, but look a squirel...
In salford this weekend the police were unable to investigate hate crimes because of cuts, but look a squirel...
These clowns aren't about opposing brexit or racism, they want to be leaders in a tory lite party, they are in it for themselves. Which is, of course, very tory. They don't care about racism, or brexit or social justice, they want power, and they don't care about the consequences of their actions.
David lammy has shown far more opposition to brexit and racism than these clueless ****ers, if any of them had made just one of the speeches he has over the past couple of years, they might have some credibility, but they have none.
You anti-semitism deniers remind me of the lance armstrong deniers 🙂
their not denying it, theyre saying that unlike in the Tories were xenophobia, racism, islamaphobia win you support rather than cause crisis (see Borris Johnson's entire career at the telegraph) its used as a cosh by the rw press
so you know better than John McDonnell then, as he seems to think that there is a problem ? :
A problem, a massive problem, a small problem? are the majority of Labour party members anti Semitic? Is the reaction proportional to the size of the problem? Is the story proportional to it?
Many of the claims against Corbyn himself which are repeated extensively don't even hold up when you read them objectively.
In a similar way how racist is the Labour party? Is it endemic?
TurnerGuy
You anti-semitism deniers remind me of the lance armstrong deniers
When the label of anti-semite is applied to people who oppose the way the Israeli state oppresses the Palestinians whose land they stole, then I'll proudly wear that label.
We have seen an Orwellian change of definition of anti-semitism.
thered be a momentum backlash though.
Momentum is as much a mess as the labour party as a whole, it's leadership trying to drive policies unwanted by its membership. IMO if the labour leadership actually started to oppose brexit, momentum's leadership would be bypassed as that is what the membership support.
some in Labour just proving the splitters right, however
https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1097439224310231042
some in Labour just proving the splitters right, however
Whilst a pretty shit song it is the Labour party anthem.
After the SDP split tho, Foot resigned & LAbour dropped their anti EEC & nuclear dissarmamnet policies, but the SDP MPs never returned.
Agree, this is far more about resigning and encouraging Corbyn to back remain/second refferendum. It's not really about a new party and there weren't really saying that it was about starting a new party.
If Corbyn were to go I can see most of these MPs coming back, thered be a momentum backlash though
Not so sure about this. I suspect many of their careers were already over and they were probably about to get deselected anyway. Momentum has an iron grip on the party now. When Corbyn goes the rule changes have ensured he will be replaced with a momentum candidate. The only thing that can stop that is if there literally was no Momentum candidate to replace Corbyn which incredibly seems quite possible. MacDonnel/Abbot/Corbyn/Skinner really were the last of the line, there just doesn't seem to be an heir apparent.
Anyway, I'm happy. 7 people shouting 'REMAIN' in the HoC is a very good thing IMHO no matter how short lived it is before the next election.
anthem it maybe, but calling them cowards & traitors is just silly
you could get away with traitirs but considering the ton of abuse they are already receiving on social media, its hardly cowardly.
I think they are probably all well aware that they could lose their seats over this too, misguided, foolhardy you could definitely say that, but cowardly is wrong.
some in Labour just proving the splitters right, however
+1
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we’ll keep the red flag flying here.
John, Chapter 11, Verse 35.
I think they are probably all well aware that they could lose their seats over this too, misguided, foolhardy you could definitely say that, but cowardly is wrong.
Considering several of them were already getting a tad worried about their local party deselecting them (not as the fruitcakes claim Corbyn doing so) I am not sure it is that great to jump first.
What is cowardly though is not putting themselves up for a byelection.
A better anthem is
" blind acceptance is a sign of stupid fools who stand in line "
What is cowardly though is not putting themselves up for a byelection.
dont worry Corbyns going to get a GE any day now.........
What is cowardly though is not putting themselves up for a byelection.
They should probably have offered it post March - there is no way any MP should be removing themselves from the votes coming up.
What is cowardly though is not putting themselves up for a byelection.
The accuracy of the label isn't the point. The point is that if a party is accused of being abusive then responding to that accusation with abuse confirms the point.
If the tweet had said "We respect these MPs but we dispute what they said" then people will think "Labour doesn't seem that abusive to me, maybe the accusation is false.".
You don't need to be some cunning Blairite spin doctor to work this stuff out.
Lammy is on LBC today, handling this very well, as he so often seems to be able to do.
Goodness me!
https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1097474345381912577
and to think, they chose the very day that a Commons Committee report into Cambridge Analytica and Facebook was published... 🤔
https://twitter.com/profcarroll/status/1097292753476698112
Registering is optional. ...and unless you plan to fight an election as a party there's no point anyway. Plenty of time to register if this "thing" takes off and it might not/probably won't take off.
Registration of a political party is not compulsory and you can
only apply to register a party if you have an intention to contest
elections. Independent candidates can contest elections
without a party being registered.
The main benefit of registering is that your party name,
description and emblem can appear on the ballot papers.
I do hope they'll demonstrate the courage of their convictions by standing for election, seeing as they're so keen on a second referendum.
Why is JC calling on them to submit to by-elections?
Surely he is on the verge of forcing a GE?
I'm not sure how many Labour MPs are facing deselection, I don't really believe the reports of 100, but say it were fifty. You'd have to assume that all of them would jump before pushed and join the "independent group". The party would want to avoid having 50 odd mps on the sidelines and voting with a 'Remain' agenda. So a disgruntled remain MPs club might help some moderates avoid deselection...
Why is JC calling on them to submit to by-elections?
So he can replace them with Leavers. They'd be mad to do that their votes are important in the next month or so.
After the SDP split tho, Foot resigned & LAbour dropped their anti EEC & nuclear dissarmamnet policies, but the SDP MPs never returned.
That's not quite what happened: The Limehouse Declaration was January 1981. Foot resigned (and Labour dropped their anti-EU stance) following their disastrous showing in the 1983 General Election. They still had unilateral nuclear disarmament as policy when they fought the 1987 election. While you could argue that the dismal Labour performance in 1983 was in part due to the SDP, the dropping of those policies (and leader) were very much not a direct response to the split itself.
At least 5 of the 28 Labour MPs who defected to the SDP eventually rejoined the Labour Party, although not as MPs, just as party members.
For me this is the inevitable result of having a totalitarian Leader like Corbyn in charge of Labour, he's already shown that he will attempt to purge anyone who doesn't sing his Hard-Left, Protectionist hymn sheet.
There's a huge vacuum in politics for someone to represent, the now, majority of people who want to remain in the EU, the Lib Dems are still tainted by their time in Government.
Centrist Labour voters like me don't want a return to 70s by "rebalancing" our economy to that of an emerging nation under the myth that you can have a weak currency and "strong wages" because history and basic economic understanding tells you, you can't.
My local Labour MP is often at odds with Labour over Brexit and is calling for a 2nd vote, I hope she'll jump ship too.
For me this is the inevitable result of having a totalitarian Leader like Corbyn
First a terrorist supporter, then a racist, now a totalitarian. Have you been reading the sun recently?
@jivehoneyjive - Gavin Shuker was on the radio and was asked about the "private company". His answer: "Yes, the one director is me. You have to have something along those lines under electoral rules and in the time available that was the easiest option."
File under "Nothing to see here".
First a terrorist supporter, then a racist, now a totalitarian. Have you been reading the sun recently?
Not a terrorist supporter, but y'know, happy to hang out with whoever fitted when it was lefty chique to say we should talk with freedom fighters, but then happy to watch a peace negotiated and enabled (chiefly) by his own party be endangered by a Brexit that very few of its members (appear to) support. So, terrorist supporter? No. Complacent and hypocritical when it suits, yes.
Mostly though, the labour party leadership is being shown up again as incompetent. Parties do not fall apart under competent leadership.
And if you can find a word to describe Corbyn, Milne and MacDonnell's leadership that works better than "totalitarian", I feel that that's a bit strong too, what would it be?
You're right Daz. Theres nothing remotely totalitarian about making all your MP's sign a 'Loyalty Pledge' to the glorious leader, is there?
Jeremy Corbyn demanding Loyalty? in writing?! You really couldn't make it up?
It did scupper another thing often said about him though... that he hasn't got a sense of humour
This must make running a GE very tempting to May.
She could end up with a proper majority.
with depressing predicatblity the likes of Len McCklusky have come out & attacked them personally.
Youd hope that somewhere in the labour leadership, thered be a bit of soul searching & reflection to wonder whether there are problems with the way the party has handled some key issues.
The abuse machine is up and running.
Theres nothing remotely totalitarian about making all your MP’s sign a ‘Loyalty Pledge’ to the glorious leader, is there?
Sorry you will need to help me here.
Why is an (admittedly stupid) loyalty oath proposed by a random activist website and not pushed by the whips a sign of a totalitarian leader?
What is a tad more totalitarian is tactics such as parachuting candidates into areas and blocking the local constituencies from choosing their own candidates. Or trying to force existing MPs to be deselected via the NEC.
Bit of a damp squib- The way its been hyped I was expecting Blair to gallop into the commons on a white horse draped in EU colours (conveniently blue) And for him to collect front bench heads on the end of his lance whilst the all the back benchers cheered.
Also why dont they join the lib dems? Its got all they want.
Why is an (admittedly stupid) loyalty oath proposed by a random activist website and not pushed by the whips a sign of a totalitarian leader?
Because it allows people who have never accepted Corbyn as leader to abuse him while complaining about abuse when it's aimed elsewhere. I suppose that if you can't get the result you want via democratic means, then the next step is to support the sabotage of the party you claimed to care about.
Evidently, rank hypocrisy doesn't bother them.
You’re right Daz. Theres nothing remotely totalitarian about making all your MP’s sign a ‘Loyalty Pledge’ to the glorious leader, is there?
Or deciding that a vote of no-confidence lost 174-40 doesn't count, because it doesn't. He'd rather force 23 of his shadow cabinet 'resign' (out of 31) for not being loyal enough to the cause.
In reality they should have left many years ago. Anybody that thinks Corbyn is hard left is not someone who should be a Labour MP. Why are they not already in the Liberal party as would seem a better fit?
Hard-Left, Protectionist hymn sheet.
Can you provide some examples of "Hard-Left" so I can try and understand what leads to people thinking this?
Evidently, rank hypocrisy doesn’t bother them.
Like the rank hypocrisy of claiming to democratise a party, while ignoring the parties wishes. Or are there still some deluded followers who believe that St Jeremy will throw his weight behind a second referendum if they can't secure a GE, because in case you haven't noticed he has failed to secure a GE.
Of course outmanouvering the party at conference has been perhaps his smartest bit of politicking, but is is also as you say "rank hypocrisy" and treacherous.
Why are they not already in the Liberal party as would seem a better fit?
The libs are too left wing for Chuka.
Theres nothing remotely totalitarian about making all your MP’s sign a ‘Loyalty Pledge’ to the glorious leader, is there?
"I pledge to work for the achievement of a Labour led Government under whatever leadership members elect. And I accept a Labour led government is infinitely better than any other election outcome."
How is the above either a personal pledge of loyalty to Corbyn, or in any way controversial to a labour MP? I would have though that it's the absolute bare minimum of what should be expected of them? If they don't like it they can easily stand as independents. What is sad is that some feel a pledge like this is necessary because the actions of their colleagues are casting doubt in the minds of the voters as to what a labour MP should be doing.
First a terrorist supporter, then a racist, now a totalitarian. Have you been reading the sun recently?
Yeah but - Tesco beans.
You’re right Daz. Theres nothing remotely totalitarian about making all your MP’s sign a ‘Loyalty Pledge’ to the glorious leader, is there?
Fake news. There was no such "oath". It was a pledge to support Labour, not Corbyn.
Why didn't Corbyn leave throughout the Blair/Brown years? Why didn't Skinner leave? When the party wasn't left enough for them?
Surely the Socialist Workers Party would have been a better fit?
Like the rank hypocrisy of claiming to democratise a party, while ignoring the parties wishes. Or are there still some deluded followers who believe that St Jeremy will throw his weight behind a second referendum if they can’t secure a GE, because in case you haven’t noticed he has failed to secure a GE.
I see. So your accusation is based upon what Corbyn may do or not do, rather than what he has done, i.e. follow party policy. Thanks for clearing that up.
Or deciding that a vote of no-confidence lost 174-40 doesn’t count
So what you are saying is the general party members should have been ignored in favour of the party elite. Starting to sound a tad totalitarian here.
He’d rather force 23 of his shadow cabinet ‘resign’
what? Seriously why dont you just claim he bites the heads of kittens or something?
You don't think that the very existence of 'Loyalty oaths' are a bit....you know.....
Why didn’t Corbyn leave throughout the Blair/Brown years? Why didn’t Skinner leave? When the party wasn’t left enough for them?
You'd have to ask them. It's possible that they didn't wish to give up a life-long commitment to the Labour movement because they happened to disagree with the then leader.
Surely the Socialist Workers Party would have been a better fit?
On what basis?
You don’t think that the very existence of ‘Loyalty oaths’ are a bit….you know….
Absolutely, but seeing as the labour leadership never asked for one it's a moot issue. I do however see working for the achievement of a labour government as opposed to a tory one a simple basic requirement of being a labour MP. It's amazing some think this is an unacceptable ask.
You don’t think that the very existence of ‘Loyalty oaths’ are a bit
Good to see you going for an inane photo rather than addressing the couple of minor flaws in your claim. Lets quote you again.
Theres nothing remotely totalitarian about making all your MP’s sign a ‘Loyalty Pledge’ to the glorious leader, is there?
So rather than just using a photo and hope people will forget do you or do not stand by it.
Bearing in mind the flaws in it including:
It references the party not the "glorious leader".
There is no requirement to sign it
It was done by a third party website and not central office.
It references the party not the “glorious leader”.
There is no requirement to sign it
It was done by a third party website and not central office.
Yes, but apart from that, binners was 100% correct.
Anyway, the 7 Dwarves didn't last long. Angela Smith will have to be expelled following her reference to people "with a funny tinge" this lunchtime. Or is that JC's fault as well?
It’s possible that they didn’t wish to give up a life-long commitment to the Labour movement because they happened to disagree with the then leader.
Yes, I suppose that's possible. It's easy putting one's principles to bed for a few years isn't it - it's a commitment by some and hypocrisy by others.
It’s easy putting one’s principles to bed for a few years isn’t it – it’s a commitment by some and hypocrisy by others.
Yes, that's why Corbyn fell into line and voted for the Iraq war.
Reg demands your loyalty!
Yep. Another dumb picture.
Yes, but apart from that, binners was 100% correct.
You will note that being completely undone by the facts hasn't got in the way of binnersbot posting one of his small stock of pictures.
Gramps has emailed the membership (I think it was the membership, and not just MPs):
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1097506830526357507