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The conservatives, sorry moderates, in the party have always had an issue with Corbyn but what polices don't they like as don't hear them talking about them?
What policies do the moderates even want as presumably they don't like Corbyn's for some reason?
As a moderate, or Tory-lite, or ****ing Blairite or whatever this weeks insult of choice is, I don’t have a problem with any of Corbyns policies, other than on Brexit, obviously.
What I do have a problem with is his total ineptitude, complete absense of political nous, and i’m deeply Suspicious of the people around him.
Some of them are merely idiots (Dianne Abott FFS?) but some I see as dangerous. Corbyn is simply a puppet for the likes of John Macdonnel and some pretty dodgy bastards who I wouldn’t want anywhere near government, as Christ only knows what they’d get up to once in power.
But then, look at the shower who are nominally in charge of the country at the moment and it can’t possibly be worse, can it?
i guess that like a lot of people I’d just like the opportunity to vote for a political party that isn’t in the grip of people who appear to be completely unhinged, whether right or left, and I wouldn’t trust to run a bath
Political nous lol.
Go and chat to your sofa about Chuka and report back.
I’m despairing of the lot of them. It just seems they come in various flavours of uselessness.
Our political system is *ed! The biggest illustration of that is that so many people cling to hope in a figure so evidently hopeless as Corbyn, or on the other side, Boris *ing Johnson
Which could well be our choice at the next election. In which case, stop the world, I want to get off
Labour seem to be dissolving into a toxic nasty mess, the tories just stab each other publicly in the back whilst screwing things over for anybody who isn’t in their circle.
Those MP’s that are actually trying are just lost in the pile of excrement.
It’s like a black comedy, without the comedy.
Binners are you suggesting that the Shadow Sec for Business has been less than vocal in the Brexit process? That’s harsh on a potential new leader
Corbyn is simply a puppet for the likes of John Macdonnel
I went to see JMcD speak in Manc a couple of years ago as part of his roadshow about new ways of organising the economy. He had Paul Mason there as a guest speaking about post-capitalism. I knew very little about him at the time but he came across as being open to new ideas rather than fighting battles of the past and someone who truly wants to defend the working class and help the less well off. If that's not someone who a labour voter can support I don't know who is.
You can have Diane Abbot though, I'm really not a fan. But even then, she has suffered from a ridiculous amount of sneering abuse at the hands of a tory press and others who no doubt find her a very easy target due to her race, gender and background.
I'm not remotely Interested in her race, colour, or sex - I’m a fully paid up Guardian reader after all - I am bothered by the fact that she’s clearly as thick as mince.
JMcD is probably a bad illustration. I don’t actually mind him. But others behind Corbyn?
What intrigued me is that he doesn’t seem remotely interested in listening to his MP’s, or even the Unions, who are all massively anti-Brexit, for example, yet will happily parrot the words of someone like Seumas Milne who is just a left-wing Steve Bannon
I’m not remotely Interested in her race, colour, or sex
Yes I know that of course, but I do think the flak she gets from the RW press is largely driven by it. I do agree though that she often doesn't demonstrate the intelligence of someone who could hold high office, hence my dislike of her. Do you think though she would be where she is if many of her supposedly more competent colleagues (Yvette Cooper for example) hadn't thrown their dummies out the pram and excluded themselves from the shadow cabinet following their defeat?
I've said before about Corbyn, I think he's keeping his powder dry on brexit. Time will tell I guess. As for listening to his MPs, I have no doubt he despises most of them. Wouldn't you after everything that's happened in the last two years? First they called him a trot, then they called him a terrorist sympathiser, then they tried the russian spy angle, now they are calling him a racist and comparing him to Hitler. Would you listen to them?
This mandatory reselection thing, is it likely to be voted on at conference? Who votes?
This mandatory reselection thing, is it likely to be voted on at conference? Who votes?
It makes me think preference and lists will be better present a number of candidates for say 3 electorates and then the voters can choose who they prefer.
The easy solution to the deselection issue is primaries in advance of every election. Either open or limited to members or registered supporters. This idea that the incumbent should have an automatic right to stand again is stupid and a major cause of what Binners talks about above. It seems to work in the US.
I am bothered by the fact that she’s clearly as thick as mince.
Oh sure, a black working class girl who went to Cambridge in the 70s. They were ten a penny...
As for listening to his MPs, I have no doubt he despises most of them. Wouldn’t you after everything that’s happened in the last two years? First they called him a trot, then they called him a terrorist sympathiser, then they tried the russian spy angle, now they are calling him a racist and comparing him to Hitler. Would you listen to them?
I know this is intended as a bit of a defence of JC but i'm not sure it really comes across as such. In business, if you had a boss who hated his staff and whose staff all hated him, you wouldn't conclude that all the staff need replacing.
I do agree that JC gets an unreasonably hard time of it - which he could have predicted - but i'm pretty disappointed at his failure to get his MPs on side.
In business, if you had a boss who hated his staff and whose staff all hated him, you wouldn’t conclude that all the staff need replacing.
To continue your wonky analogy, if the shareholders want to keep the boss, they'll tell the staff to shape up or ship out.
Exactly. It’s not business, it’s democratic politics. The Labour Party is a democratic institution, the members voted for a leader. The MPs then challenged the legitimacy of this vote on the basis of the new supporter rule skewing the results. After trying and failing to prevent Corbyn from standing, and after changing the rules to prevent many of the previous supporters from voting for him, the members voted for him again in increased numbers. Now having exhausted the democratic route, they call him a racist. Anyone else wondering why these MPs still think they have the right to be taken seriously?
Just because you can calculate how many beans are in a tin, doesn’t mean you know how to open it.
thick as mince.
Just because you can calculate how many beans are in a tin, doesn’t mean you know how to open it.
thick as mince.
You're looking increasingly desperate.
So when you look to the people you’d want running the country then the first on the list would be Dianne Abbot?
Did you somehow miss her stellar performance in the last election campaign?
I wouldn't trust her to run a bath
So when you look to the people you’d want running the country then the first on the list would be Dianne Abbot?
No, I'd want Owen Smith.
Is it at all possible that she was just ill?
In any case, would you rather she was running the country (or rather a bit of it) as opposed to Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris grayling, Jeremy hunt, Andrea Leadsome, Liam Fox, Dominic Raab, Karen Bradley etc? I’d have Abbott over any of those lot, in any position.
I’d have Abbott over any of those lot, in any position.
Nah, I'd rather carry on like a petulant teenager who didn't get his own way.
As a moderate, or Tory-lite, or ****ing Blairite or whatever this weeks insult of choice is, I don’t have a problem with any of Corbyns policies, other than on Brexit, obviously.
🙂
Big problem with the Brexit thing is that most of Labour's traditional following voted for it.
What's a guy to do?
As regards to his policies, they're pretty bloody excellent.
Unfortunately, like most people I was dubious about some of his links to the worst of old school left wing ideology.
And the anti semitism charge is sadly justified when applied to some of the thick bastards who don't seem to be able to differentiate between a religion, a state, it's government and it's people.
And no, not keen on Dianne either, not because of her performance, but because of her hypocrisy regarding private schools.
But Blair didn't represent me or many of the people I know. Yep, better than the Tories, but a **** of the first water.
I'm a socialist.
And a Labour party member.
I feel JC is at least honest, if somewhat misguided and seemingly encumbered by his refusal to ditch the utter stupidity of the sixth form.
Your mate Andy Burnham? Nice bloke, absolutely no idea what he believes in, or why.
I'd vote for him if he stopped dying his hair, stopped wearing make up on TV and (in seriousness) convinced me that his beliefs are those of the Labour party I've fought for all my life.
If you genuinely believe in socialism, get involved and change things from within. You can come and help me heckle the Hattons at Rochdale Momentum meetings, they don't like me very much.
Otherwise, stop whining and go and join the Liberals 🙂 They need a new logo.
Otherwise, stop whining and go and join the Liberals
A lot of Labour MPs and supporters should be doing that as they clearly don't believe in a real Labour party. Nothing wrong with that and clearly better than staying in the wrong party and trying to bring it down/change it to a liberal party.
The trouble with FI or FO is that the current advocates did not follow their own advice.
Anyone watching the Corbyn interview on Andrew Marr? A couple of minutes on brexit and the conference. 20 minutes on whether JC is an anti-semite. Marr is making an idiot of himself.
You don't think that it is important to highlight racism and question it ?
You don’t think that it is important to highlight racism and question it ?
Yes, but as it's been discussed to death and I don't think JC is the best person to address Racist former foreign secretary and his racist colleagues 😉 so maybe addressing the relevant topics of the day such as the state of the EU deal and negotiations are important.
Next news if they debate and vote for a second referendum at conference it's going to be policy. Sounds sensible and democratic doesn't it.
Usual stuff from Marr - a clip from his lovey-dovey fireside chat with "death to Arabs" Sacks, and the laughable attempt to gloss over the Enoch Powell reference - talk about outing yourself! I suppose next week he will be asking Sajid Javed and TM to look at the camera and apologise for Windrush? Aah - no, I thought not!!
i thought in fact Corbyn handled it pretty well.
Reports are surfacing of a police investigation into online anti semitic hate crime within the Labour Party.
Hopefully it is nothing more than a campaign by disgruntled elements within the party......
Reports are surfacing of a police investigation into online anti semitic hate crime within the Labour Party.
Well according to police chiefs, hate crimes don't matter, so I can't see this taking off (even supposing it was real)
No link to these reports?
It's now being reported on the BBC.
Maybe it will be handily brushed under the carpet by Drj's police chiefs?
Well from the BBC
But she insisted the Met was "not investigating" the Labour Party itself.
Or a more accurate claim would be an investigation into somebody who is a member of the Labour party.
I wonder when we will take a serious look at the racism on the other side of the benches...
For my money Kier Starmer is a shoe-in for next Labour PM
Or a more accurate claim would be an investigation into somebody who is a member of the Labour party.
It had previously passed the material to ex-police officer Mak Chishty, who said that 17 instances should have been reported to the police for investigation, and another four were potential race hate crimes.
LBC said the allegations included threats against MPs, including a message on Facebook that a female Labour MP was a "zionist extremist...who hates civilised people" and is "about to get a good kicking".
So - police investigating 17 Labour hate crimes does not equal a problem with the party at all ?
It comes as a new <i>Populus/BICOM</i> poll found that 38% of Brits believe that Corbyn himself is anti-Semitic. Only 1 in 4 people agreed that he was a <i>“committed campaigner against racism of all kinds, including antisemitism”</i>, while as few as 19% believed that he had <i>“worked hard to deliver peace between Israel and the Palestinians”</i>. Almost double that number instead thought that he <i>“only seems interested in talking to those organisations which have been deemed terrorists by the British Government, the EU and the US State Department”</i>. <i>The fish rots from the head.</i>..
People are getting Woke.
I'm surprised it's only 38%, given the coverage.
For my money Kier Starmer is a shoe-in for next Labour PM
I'd vote for him, but that ship has sailed. He can't get the leadership job now Momentum have taken over:
Police investigation of Facebook posts? It's just a rerun of the Monty Python sketch about how the police were keeping tabs on the activities of the Piranha brothers by reading the colour supplement.
A cynic might point to the convenient timing of the police suddenly taking an interest in hate crimes. Anyone got any news about Brexit?
I’d vote for him, but that ship has sailed. He can’t get the leadership job now Momentum have taken over:
Indeed. The next leader will be, to all intents and purposes, appointed by Jeremy. Kier Starmer (or anyone else with a cat in hells chance of actually winning a general election) won't get a look in.
Oops. Someone rattled binners' cage. Luckily, in fact - it was several hours since he last posted a Life of Brian picture.
So – police investigating 17 Labour hate crimes does not equal a problem with the party at all ?
What is a "Labour hate crime".
Actually this is hardly a surprise. The BBC were busy linking the Pittsburgh shooting to Corbyn the other night. Why change a winning formula?
Its definitely all a conspiracy by 'The Establishment'
What is a “Labour hate crime”.
I'm pretty sure you understand the notion of a hate crime.
A Labour hate crime would be one committed by the type of people who were kept out of Labour for several decades due to their extremism and were welcomed back into positions of power within the party <span style="text-decoration: underline;">because of</span> their hateful, extremist views once Corbyn took power.
The party must be made to take responsibility for those that it selects to speak for it.
their hateful, extremist views once Corbyn took power.
The party must be made to take responsibility for those that it selects to speak for it.
Ah the tory spokesperson is back.... Better than a cartoon this time. Who are these people that were welcomed back
Drj
Police investigation of Facebook posts? It’s just a rerun of the Monty Python sketch....
With the tragic murder of Jo Cox in June 2016, I would think that any claims of violence towards our MPs should be investigated. Murder of public servants is not really a re-run of a popular TV comedy show I would like to see repeated on the streets of Britain.
Maybe you disagree?
Also to add, this is about 45 incedents, if these were all individuals then that is about 0.035% of the members of the labour party.
Does Labour have a problem or does society have a problem?
Are people reporting cases involving people who are not members of the labour party?
The party must be made to take responsibility for those that it selects to speak for it.
Too right
With the tragic murder of Jo Cox in June 2016, I would think that any claims of violence towards our MPs should be investigated
Indeed. Tory MPs talking about stabbing the prime minister are deplorable. But I don't see what that had to do with Labour?
Drj
Police investigation of Facebook posts? It’s just a rerun of the Monty Python sketch.......
With the tragic murder of Jo Cox in June 2016, I would think that any claims of violence towards our MPs should be investigated
Indeed. Tory MPs talking about stabbing the prime minister are deplorable. But I don’t see what that had to do with Labour?
So are you now saying threats against MPs should be investigated?
Of course. And the individuals responsible (and not some other members of an organisation to which they may or may not belong) held to account.
So are you now saying threats against MPs should be investigated?
No we are suggesting there is a shit load of hypocrisy going on here. Until you get more than 45 cases for about 125k members it's not really looking like correlation is it. More like the current labour party is making legitimate criticism of the state of Israel and there is some backlash from that.
It's more than clear to anyone that cares to read the BBC article that it isn't the Labour party that's is being investigated by the Met. According to the article the "Police have launched a criminal inquiry into allegations of anti-Semitic hate crimes <span style="text-decoration: underline;">within the Labour Party</span>."
Unless you know something that isn't being reported at the moment then the claims stand. Should article not be discussed? If that is what you believe, then I would be interested why you want to gag any discussion on the article?
Unless you know something that isn’t being reported at the moment then the claims stand.
What claims, do we know what other clubs the people were members of< Were they Londoners? Does London have a problem? What about the football team they supported. You know less than 0.04% of the Labour party
If people were found to have broken the law then prosecute them. No need to link them to any party they may be a member of. I am sure there are a fair few Labour party members who have broken the speed limit and been caught, does that mean the Labour party have a problem with speeding...
It was Jezza himself that said There is no place for antisemitism in the Labour Party. We must drive it out of our movement for good?
So if the leader comments on it, doesn't that mean it does indeed link to the labour party? If you haven't already seen it, go and watch Jezza's speech from 8th August on the subject and decide for yourself.
and with that we wait for all other political leaders to drive racism and sexism from their parties.
I know it's all exciting and a nice Labour bashing headline but what is your actual point here?
Rationally some people who were members of the Labour party typed some comments and are now being investigated by the police. By the number of things being reviewed it's a statistically insignificant number of people involved.
I'm sure following the outcome of the police inquiry appropriate action will be taken.
Labour party has 550,000 members.
You would think that a racist brexiteer would be a shoe in to be the next prime minister. surprised he hasn't had some wealthy backers swinging his way.
You would think that a racist brexiteer would be a shoe in to be the next prime minister. surprised he hasn’t had some wealthy backers swinging his way.
The fact he may take away some of their ill gotten gains may be a down side for them.
****ing idiots, quit because of the handling of brexit I understand, but bringing up the bullshit antisemitism charges just shows their real motivation is not about doing the right thing for the electorate.
Corbyn needs removing, but for the right reasons, not some blatantly false charges trumped up by the tories and the right wing press, the quiters are just supporting the erg and their cronies by the way they are handling this..
From Peston....
It looks as though the longest rumoured split in a major British political party since the creation of the SDP almost 40 years ago will happen this morning.
The reason I think this is because last light I texted the Labour MPs Chuka Umunna, Chris Leslie, Luciana Berger and Gavin Shuker asking them if they were holding a press conference at 10.30 this morning to announce the split, and none replied.
For what it is worth, I could also have texted Mike Gapes, Angela Smith or Ann Coffey among other critics of the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn.
The mystery is not why they are leaving Labour: they are all alienated from a Labour leadership that they see as being far too slow and lacklustre in cutting out the cancer of antisemitism, and they are furious that Corbyn has been (as they see it) ignoring the majority of Labour members and supporters who would like the party to back an EU referendum.
No. The mystery is why today, rather than in a fortnight or six weeks, when perhaps the UK’s EU destiny will be a bit clearer.
The point is that those running the People’s Vote campaign for a referendum have been desperately trying to persuade Ummuna and Leslie to delay their split - because they think if they were to leave the party now, that would entrench the reluctance of Corbyn and those close to him to back a referendum.
As and when Umunna and co formally leave Labour, the call for a referendum will be closely associated with those who have set themselves up as the enemies of Corbyn and his socialist project. So the referendum-sceptics around Corbyn will tell him that conceding a People’s Vote would be to capitulate to those who want to destroy him.
So the big question for Umunna and the Labour refuseniks today is whether in leaving Labour because they want a referendum they are not in practice undermining the prospect of a referendum.
@ MSP - do you remember the leadership saying that Labour did have problem with antisemitism? And you then go on and call it bullshit....!! You just provided a clear example of the antisemitism issue!!
And you then go on and call it bullshit….!! You just provided a clear example of the antisemitism issue!!
They have a problem in the same way the Tory party do on Islamophobia and general racism. It exists in a small minority. It's being exploited heavily by the RW press. If they felt that strongly about it what have they done so far about it?
The labour leadership made an error in how they thought they needed to deal with an unrelenting witch hunt. Sure there are racists and bigots in Labour, but there are a ****ing lot less than in the tories. But the right wing press only dwell on the problems within labour, and ignore the constant racist diatribe from the tories..
eg Corbyn invites a jewish concentration camp survivor to speak, in his speech (the jewish concentration camp survivor to be clear, not Corbyn) he is critical of Israels current policy, apparently that makes Corbyn an antisemite, and the press bang on about it unrelentingly for over 12 months (never mentioning that the person making the comments was a jewish concentration camp survivor and in fact actually and bizarrely labeling him as antisemite as well).
Bojo makes genuinely racist comments about Muslims, and it disappears in a single news cycle.
Twitter now saying there won't be a split - only a threat of one.
The antisemitism thing is a red herring. The issue is that you have a pro-EU party being led
(if you can call it that?) by a hardline brexiteer.
As we plough on towards a catastrophic no deal scenario, it seems that the leader of the labour party is more than happy to acquiesce wit the ERG to allow it to happen, in the (deluded) hope that the Tory's will the shoulder the blame for the resulting economic meltdown.
The split has been inevitable fora long time
@ MSP - the antisemitism issue within the Labour party isn't just about the leader. Look at what Luciana has had to put up with and what the local party has thrown at her. The apparent enablement of the ERG inspired Brexit is another massive problem for the MP's.
I hope they don't leave, Labour would be losing some good people.
I look forward to Chukka leading a new movement and saving us from brexit. I assume if he fails and we end up with a tory govt with a small majority at the next election that he will admit that he has enabled the continuance of tory rule and apologise to all the people he claims to represent.
So 'The Independent Group'. Hope they've put more thought into what they're saying/doing than they did into coming up with that name.
a tory government with the UK in the EU, would still be preferable to a Labour government on the outside, over the next couple of decades.
This is the real problem, you are putting party politics ahead of the big issue. The country needs saving from brexit, I don't care whether the charge comes from within labour or breakaway tories, someone needs to oppose this ****ing madness.
And before you try to label/insult me as a cenrist, I am ****ing not, I am a socialist through and through. And once this mess is sorted, that's is where my lifelong vote will continue. But there will be nothing but a wreckage to salvage if brexit goes through, a socialist post brexit government will be powerless to help those most in need with a collapsed economy.
We are already seeing billions wiped from revenue, as brexit champions flee to low tax exile.
I can't imagine that 7 MPs are really hoping to form an effective political force. The Independent Group name really doesn't suggest that.
Could this just be a way to get out of harm's way while they hope the current leadership explodes after Brexit so that they re-enter without being tarnished?
So the big question for Umunna and the Labour refuseniks today is whether in leaving Labour because they want a referendum they are not in practice undermining the prospect of a referendum.
Umunna in "not thinking things through" shocker!!
They look like a new bank...
Sounds like a lot of right-wing frustration bubbling out to me.
Also not much talk of of Brexit in the conference?
I look forward to Chukka leading a new movement and saving us from brexit. I assume if he fails and we end up with a tory govt with a small majority at the next election that he will admit that he has enabled the continuance of tory rule and apologise to all the people he claims to represent.
Yepo
Some of the rubbish coming out now - they've changed the face of the Labour party apparently - yeah back to where it should be.
a tory government with the UK in the EU, would still be preferable to a Labour government on the outside, over the next couple of decades.
Don't agree.
We need to change the ideology. Things haven't been good under the Tories whilst in the EU - so why would it be good for the next decade?
It's a downward trajectory.
So how do you predict a socialist government will improve things with a collapsed economy?
We have been on a down slope under the tories within the EU, but brexit is taking us over the cliff edge with no hope.
Even if there is a slim hope, the US will do anything to undermine socialism, and we will have rejected our only support. The US will win, and we will be well and truly ****ed.
So how do you predict a socialist government will improve things with a collapsed economy?
What is your measure of a collapsed economy? And when?
Don't forget the economy already went to junk in 2008.
eg Corbyn invites a jewish concentration camp survivor to speak, in his speech (the jewish concentration camp survivor to be clear, not Corbyn) he is critical of Israels current policy, apparently that makes Corbyn an antisemite, and the press bang on about it unrelentingly for over 12 months (never mentioning that the person making the comments was a jewish concentration camp survivor and in fact actually and bizarrely labeling him as antisemite as well).
And not mentioning that Corbyn left the meeting soon after it started, whereas Louise Ellman MP stayed for the whole thing and was among those jeering the Holocaust survivor.