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If you fabcy getting a measure of the true nature of a lot of Corbyn supporters then go and check out their twitter feeds and Facebook pages on groups like ‘Red Labour’. It always makes for interesting reading
What does "a lot" mean, how many are you talking about here? You really need to stop reading shit like that as it is not representative.
If you fabcy getting a measure of the true nature of a lot of Corbyn supporters then go and check out their twitter feeds and Facebook pages on groups like ‘Red Labour’. It always makes for interesting reading
And there are plenty on the other side like Labour First who bang on about hard left conspiracies. This isn't a one-sided problem. Maybe the idea of the labour party as a broad church has simply had it's day? If some MPs really can't bring themselves to support the wishes of members and the policies and leadership they support, then maybe they should leave and join Chukka's lot. It won't help to keep the tories out of power, but it will at least put an end to this ridiculous infighting.
If some MPs really can’t bring themselves to support the wishes of members and the policies and leadership they support, then maybe they should leave and join Chukka’s lot.
What about Labour MPs arguing against another referendum… they are still welcome to stay? Yes?
What about Labour MPs arguing against another referendum… they are still welcome to stay?
Why woudn't they be?
If some MPs really can’t bring themselves to support the wishes of members and the policies and leadership they support, then maybe they should leave…
Given that Labour lost its amendment yesterday, they are now therefore committed to their next step (as agreed by conference) of a second referendum. Are we all going to hold our collective breath until they actually do something concrete about putting that in motion?
Or will Jeremy suddenly remember thats there's lots to be done on the allotment at this time of year, with the weather warming up, and he'll sort something out when he gets back from sorting his courgettes and runner beans.? It'll take him a few weeks but he'll definitely get round to it by the 28th of March, or in the next few days after that. Honest.
Oh... the goalposts have moved already. That didn't take long, did it?
And they accuse May of can-kicking?
I think I'll call in at the bookies and put my house on Labour never tabling an amendment for a second referendum
Binners you've lost me. He said they'd put down an amendment at the first opportunity, or am I hearing things?
Yesterday, Labour put down an amendment that would give parliament a say on a Brexit deal the party could support, including a full customs union, stronger single market alignment and more robust protection for the environment and workers’ rights.
They said that if it was defeated (you'll be surprised to hear that it was) they would go for a second referendum. Immediately afterwards McDonnell now says that they'll now do it 'as soon as the meaningful vote comes back>
They simply aren't ever going to table an amendment calling for a second referendum. Thats been obvious for quite some time. Confirmed last night
It is the hope that kills you, isn't it?
Seems the right time to have a vote by MPs to me… if that amendment for a public vote on the withdrawal agreement is passed… then MPs can vote to accept the agreement on the understanding that it goes to the public before being enacted… it now needs the Leave date to be changed as well though, obviously, as this is happening so late in the day…
…I don't see MPs backing the ammendment though… far too many questions and too much planning to do for a referendum, and we Leave in one month. Recind A50 and stop the clock. Come back to talk about referendums, alternative deals, and elections, when there is time to do so.
[ is this the wrong thread ? ]
They said that if it was defeated (you’ll be surprised to hear that it was) they would go for a second referendum. Immediately afterwards McDonnell now says that they’ll now do it ‘as soon as the meaningful vote comes back
And that's exactly what they're doing. It's an amendment to the legislation enacting brexit. The form of that amendment is dependent on the result of the vote on May's deal. You can't amend something that doesn't exist yet.
And bringing this back to Labour, I suppose when the second referendum amendment fails (as it probably will), no doubt Corbyn will be at fault and it'll be the result of some far left revolutionary masterplan?
Corbyn has shown the same commitment to his members' call for another referendum that he did when campaigning for Remain in the last one. How much difference that has made to what has happened since 2015 is a long boring debate done to death in the other thread.
Corbyn has shown the same commitment to his members’ call for another referendum that he did when campaigning for Remain in the last one.
that is an abiguous statement !
I'll start with 'Sweet F/A'...
Binners you’ve lost me. He said they’d put down an amendment at the first opportunity, or am I hearing things?
Binners is in far too deep to ever admit that Corbyn is doing exactly what he wants. Apparently, his opponents are a cult, I guess that he is no student of irony.
Something for your third coffee of the morning, folks.
Guardian have this take on how Labour might secure a majority for a 2nd ref given a straight vote on a 2nd ref wouldn't pass especially if presented by Labour front bench
Since 2016 the labour leadership has done everything in its power to facilitate the Tory's Brexit. I don't see them doing anything differently now. They'll continue to play along so that we're out on 29th March, even if its a No Deal Brexit. Its what Corbyn wanted from day one, and its what he wants now. And as we know, he doesn't give a flying **** what anyone else thinks
There isn't going to be a second referendum. There isn't going to be anything from labour to delay or prevent Brexit, even if it end up, as looks increasingly likely, entirely on the terms of the ERG.
I think jezza is far more likely to try and 3 line whip his MPs to get Brexit through, than he is to table an amendment for a second referendum. If I'll give him credit for anything its his consistency. He's a hardcore brexiteer, has been from day one, and has done everything in his power to facilitate Brexit. Very effectively. Since he's not changed his mind on anything since 1973 and he's not about to start now. This will lead to the destruction of the labour party, obviously, but I can't see him being too arsed about that really. Nothing else seems to intrude on Planet Jezza.
His legacy will be of the Labour leader who destroyed the labour party by sitting back and nodding through a rightwing coup that destroys all the social progress the labour party ever made, and establishes the UK as a neoliberal wet dream. A deregulated sweatshop tax haven.
Yay for socialism!
Well this is an interesting take...
https://labourlist.o https://labourlist.org/2019/03/siobhain-mcdonagh-links-anti-capitalism-to-antisemitism-in-labour/
Much happening this week, then?
No comrade. Nothing to see here. We're just carrying on preparing for the revolution and generally being nice to everyone
Solidarity, comrade.
^beginning to sound like an Alexei Sayle script.
Speaking of which, whatever happened to Ernie? I miss him and his revolutionary fervour
[url= https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/KvKjku ]Ernie-iphone[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/14162682@N00/ ]bin lid[/url], on Flickr
Coo! Now over 35 years’ young...
More recently - Alexei Sayle's The Absence of Normal is on R4 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002rjl
Much happening this week, then?
Not sure it's new news but this just popped up on my BBC news page.
Possible equalities and hunan rights commission
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47482048
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47488047
Is Amber Rudd planning on a leap to the racist labour party 😉
Hah. If anyone's shocked by Amber Rudd saying "coloured" they can't have paid too much attention to her time as home secretary. Or maybe all that gets deleted when you resign to protect your equally racist boss and then return to the front bench 17 minutes later. Getting in a tizz because she said the wrong word, after Windrush... no, not after, because it's still happening
I don’t think any party that has Boris Johnson in it (as a potential leader, no less) can’t really make any claims about not being racist
Then again, the fact that both our main political parties are now openly racist is probably an appropriate comment on this shitty Brexit country
I don’t think any party that has Boris Johnson in it (as a potential leader, no less) can’t really make any claims about not being racist
They had an inquiry after his last outburst in the papers and found he was just being Boris, the majority of the press seem to have no issue letting him off his good ol plain speaking racism. Meanwhile the NI Minister is making sure her next visit is going to be "fun"
Anyone interested in what’s really going on with labour and supposed anti-semitism read on...
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/truth-about-seumas-milne-jeremy-corbyn-and-new-mccarthyism
An interesting choice of source.
What's interesting about it?
Edit: I see now after some quick googling. It's pretty irrelevant really. Given the bias of the rightwing press against Corbyn all this does is redress the balance. A quick glance at some of the other articles seems to indicate that the quality of journalism on display here is of an order of magnitude higher and more trustworthy than the likes of the Daily Mail. As an example, here's another one, by none other than rightwing commentator Peter Oborne.
I heard a rather disturbing story yesterday about a Labour MP. I'm not going into details, but I was told far more than I'm putting here from 3 of the Club members.
The MP was asked for support with a Sports Clubs application for a grant. The MP replied back ' sorry, I cannot support your Club as you do not represent the demographics of the area you are located.
What was inferred was that the Club was in an area that was predominantly populated by non-white people, yet the Club was mainly white, however, they are open to anyone who wants to take part. This isnt an elite golf / other club, it is a grass roots sport, where anyone, of any age / background are welcomed and can take part. What one Member thought was being brought up was their support for a Jewish Girls School, who hold regular sessions at the clubhouse, even though at all other times anyone can attend.
If it is true, and I have no reason to disbelieve the people who told me, it conforms what some of the red tops have been saying about this MP.
If you want to know whether there’s a problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party then just take even the most cursory glance at the hardcore Corbynite groups on Twitter
It’s not a product of the right-wing press, no matter what the typically paranoid bunker-mentality of the left would have you believe. It’s very real, and it’s disgusting
But these are the people Jezza has been waving placards with for decades so he’s happy to pretend it’s not happening. A bit like Brexit
I see climate change is his latest distraction technique. When he’s not on the allotment.
Can you share some examples binners? This is not a challenge for you to be proved wrong, I just want to see examples as I'm not on twitter.
I see climate change is his latest distraction technique. When he’s not on the allotment.
Well that guarantees my vote. He’d be the only politician apart from Caroline Lucas giving it the priority it deserves. Weird you describe it as a distraction though unless you think trade policy is more important.
Be careful proving binners wrong as he'll flounce like he did from the EU thread.
A good day to bury bad news, etc.
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1105881309099032576?s=19
Oh, and this,
https://twitter.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1105230303927373826?s=19
Would anyone be brave enough to forecast how Labour will perform in the EU elections today?
Will Jeremy's cunning fence sitting policy work? Or will the be humiliated by St Nige of Faarange and Bojo's political party's of hate?
Labour will do very poorly loosing seats and votes - but will outperform the tories significantly. tories around 1% of the vote quite possibly less. labour around 18%
Tories will lose most of their MSPs to brexit. labour will lose a few to greens and lib dems
tories 10% not 1%
With a remain Tom Watson at the helm I would have voted labour for the first time in my life.
I rejoiced when Corbyn was elected, sure it meant the Labour party was dead and buried. Guess I didn't reckon on the sheer number of fruit loops with voting cards out there.
.....Says the brexiter 😂😂😂😂
As I said on the other thread, anyone voting for the Brexit party no longer gets to criticize Corbyn over the IRA or anti-Semiticism!
Watson - I can't make my mind up. Some utterly disgraceful behaviour in the early days after Corbyn became leader but since then done a very good job of holding things together.
Watson couldn't do much worse, while I agree with most of Corbyn's beliefs he is an awful leader. He really is not the right man for the job.
Would anyone be brave enough to forecast how Labour will perform in the EU elections today?
Appallingly. A proper opposition, worthy of referring to as such without snorting with derision, would be looking at absolutely cleaning up as the Brexit party hoover up Tory votes.
But when Magic Grandad voiced his opinion that their absolutely terrible local election results were a sign that voters 'wanted us to get on and deliver Brexit', that sealed their fate today. They're going to haemorrhage votes to the Lib Dems and the Greens in every seat
Sadly, when they do, that clueless Brexity muppet will come to the same conclusion
But Labour have traditionally been against EU free movement of Labour, because it hits low paid British workers the hardest, you know, the people the Labour party are supposed to represent?
They’re going to haemorrhage votes to the Lib Dems and the Greens in every seat
Depends how many Labour supporters are pro-Brussels. Those that aren't will likely vote brexit party
Would anyone be brave enough to forecast how Labour will perform in the EU elections today?
I don't know, I always get the feeling that Pollsters attract the more engaged voters.
I've switched from Labour to the Libs, which took a lot.
My Wife thought about it, but when it came down to it, voted for Labour as she always has done, Labour and Corbyn's saving grace could be loyalty built up over a lifetime, not the last few years.
I watched a re-run of HIGNFY last night/this morning hosted by Alan Johnson (this current series). He mentioned that 66% of Labour voters nationally voted to remain in the EU. Assuming that is true, it does lend weight to the leadership ignoring the voter base.
I watched a re-run of HIGNFY last night/this morning hosted by Alan Johnson (this current series). He mentioned that 66% of Labour voters nationally voted to remain in the EU. Assuming that is true, it does lend weight to the leadership ignoring the voter base
I thought it was higher.
Labour is evolving, The old 'New Labour' of the Blair, Brown and Miliband. They aren't socialists, they're Social Democrats. It's a kind of individual socialism - the opportunity for individuals to try to better themselves - so elements of capitalism, but at the same time using taxation to protect and support those who cannot and removing barrier to social movement. So, under this style of government we had record numbers of University Students, Economic stimulus away from places already successfully and record NHS spending, but higher taxes and a more fluid and competitive jobs markets - more economic migrants etc.
Corbyn and others within the Party who support him are Socialists, they believe in Society working as a whole for the common good and fair policies like equal pay for equal work. So if you're a 21 year old female working next to a 40 year old male doing the same job, you should be paid the same. You further yourselves collectively bargaining with the employer for wages and terms etc. You protect jobs by limiting economic migration of people to the job and the job away from you through globalisation. Freedom of movement is a fundamental aspect of the EU and a form of Globalisation - move low-skilled work to developing countries and high-skilled work to developed countries with higher standards of education etc.
There are pros and cons to each, but they're incompatible in a lot of ways.
Corbyn is not stupid, he won't say to voters who voted for Labour because of their Social Democratic policies "you're not welcome anymore" but he equally cannot change his views to support them. He believes that the last 10 years of Austerity has created enough downtrodden workers who'll vote for Socialist policies, or he just doesn't care about 'winning' (Socialists aren't as a rule of thumb competitive people) and see his position as opposition leader as a chance to push socialist policy onto the government.
Given the history of the UK, a large proportion of people who voted for Labour as young adults (when we set out our own principles) aren't socialists, so it's a surprise they aren't happy with current policy, but equally during those years JC was very anti-Labour policy himself and there are lots of people who stopped voting labour because of it.
So if you’re a 21 year old female working next to a 40 year old male doing the same job, you should be paid the same.
Which has very little to do with socialism. Collectivism, protectionism yes but policies on discrimination (or lack thereof) doesn't link into most political schools of thought.
And to add to Jeremy's mounting issues to deal with.
The Equality watchdog looks to open an investigation into Labour and its handling of anti-Semitism complaints.
And now a member of the ruling NEC has been accused of anti semitic language (and not for the first time either).
Peter Willsman allegedly accused
Didn't it take Labour just a few hours to agree to expel Alastair Campbell?
I did think this was very apt...
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47971791743_03c35c043f.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47971791743_03c35c043f.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2g66YnD ]LibDems[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
Peter Willsman now suspended.
How on earth is Peter not expelled????
Why does no one in the media ask more questions about these ‘allegations’? I’m no Labour Party defender and they have behaved foolishly ref Alistair Campbell, but as far as I can see, this latest matter is about someone asking perfectly legitimate questions about the partiality of the Israeli state when it comes to its relationship with Labour. It’s nothing to do with anti-semitism.
He is accused of saying: "This is off the record. It's almost certain who is behind all this anti-Semitism against Jeremy [Corbyn], almost certainly it's the Israeli embassy."
He's been suspended for THAT????
Thank **** I'm not a member of the Labour Party!
Do people have any idea how much the Israeli government has to loose if Corbyn were ever to become UK Prime Minister? The UK is a very major arms to supplier to Israel, and Israel needs access to British weapons to maintain its relentless repression of the Palestinian people. The UK is also a Permanent Member of the UN Security Council, Corbyn being UK Prime Minister would be an absolute disaster for them.
The Israeli embassy is the permanent diplomatic mission of the Israeli government, that's the role of an embassy. It's there to serve the interests of the home country. To suggest that the Israeli embassy isn't briefing against Corbyn or actively engaging in undermining him, is as absurd as claiming that during the Apartheid era the South African embassy wasn't actively engaging in undermining the Anti-apartheid Movement in the UK - of course it was. And claiming that it was didn't make you an anti-white racist!
But let's be absolutely clear about one thing, which I have to admit tragically even some people on the left fail to fully grasp. THERE IS NO GLOBAL JEWISH CONSPIRACY! AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN! To suggest there is, is vile, disgusting, and racist.
What there is without doubt, however, is coordinated activity among Zionists. Zionism is a political ideology. It's NOT a race, nor a religion, it's just an ideology. A great deal of the most outspoken opponents of Zionism and Israel are Jews - never ever forget that.
A couple of weeks ago I attended a demonstration in Central London to mark Nakba Day (the Great Catastrophe). Among the thousands who attended were many Jews, proudly proclaiming their Jewishness with banners and placards. Were they anti-Semites???
Included among them were Orthodox Jews, as in this photo :
Along the route there were 3 or 4 pro-Israeli Jews waving the Israeli flag and shouting pro-Israeli slogans. I was walking along side the Orthodox Jews and when they saw the 3 or 4 pro-Israeli counter-demonstrators they turned towards them pointing their fingers and chanted "shame on you" and "down with Israel". It was truly heart-warming to see Jews standing up for Palestinians. It would be utterly ridiculous if only Jews were able to make a stand for Palestinians and anyone else was accused of being anti-Semitic. ffs
Antisemitism in the Labour Party is a plot by the Israeli Embassy. Hmmmmm....
Pete’s got nothing to worry about. He’s a mate of Magic Grandad. They’ll have a look into it for 4-5 years then conclude that there’s nothing to see here
It’s not like he committed the heinous crime of voting Lib Dem, or owt really serious like that
Yes blaming the Israeli embassy is a bit paranoid but not anti-semitic, just anti Israeli embassy.
Included among them were Orthodox Jews, as in this photo :
They're the Jewish equivalent of the Westboro Baptist loons, only possibly even more loony.
https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/who-are-the-neturei-karta-1.444090
They’re the Jewish equivalent of .........
I call racist!
Touché, old chap! Good to see you back, by the way.
He’s been suspended for THAT????
not quite, he also suggested that the Labour party had uncovered Israeli spies within the party, said that it was "obvious" and "certain" that UK Rabbis were controlled by the Israeli Govt, and then said that although he was sure, he wasn't bothered to find out about it.
The cognitive dissonance you need to go through to go from you're certain that British Jews are controlled by the Israeli Embassy (and by association the Govt) and that they have spies everywhere, but you cant be bothered to find out, but that's your guess, is a man telling himself a story that suits his narrative. And that narrative is a shadowy cabal of Jews controlling public opinion through willing agents (the British Rabbis that clearly can't be trusted) .
If that's not anti Semitic, I don't know what is TBH.
Willsman should've been thrown out by now
Edit, oh, and this is his second offence
Do people have any idea how much the Israeli government has to loose if Corbyn were ever to become UK Prime Minister? The UK is a very major arms to supplier to Israel, and Israel needs access to British weapons
How much to lose? I'd say nothing. Last time Labour were in power the "Ethical Foreign Policy" ended the second a few defence industry jobs in Labour seats were at risk. The policy was immediately shelved and a consignment of Aircraft dashboards were sold to Israel.
JC will listen to the Unions and even if he didn't he'd be under the same pressures as any other government of any other complexion. As Party Leader he simply doesn't have freedom to act as he'd wish (as we see over Brexit) and as PM he won't have freedom to have the Foreign Policy he might want.
Mind you, I'd agree some of the Anti Semetic accusations are ludicrous - what Ken Livingstone said wasn't remotely anti-semetic, for instance. Having said that anti semitisms costs Labour Zero votes. Brexit's costing them tens of thousands of votes in key seats so this media distraction from Brexit is good for Labour.
not quite, he also suggested that......
piha's link to the BBC article didn't claim any of that, just the allegation of Israeli embassy interference, why not - if there's more to the story than just that?
As I said above in big bold capital letters, I have absolutely no time at all for anyone who suggests a global Jewish conspiracy. It's not just a disgusting lie but also dangerous lie which was used to justify the Holocaust.
Unfortunately there are some people on the left who are lazy and sloppy in their thinking, and make the assumption that all Jews are Zionist and support Israel. In my experience when it is pointed out to them the dangerous and racist nature of their assumption they always accept the critism.
I have yet to meet anyone on left who actively promotes the "global Jewish conspiracy". Perhaps they exist but I have yet to meet them, my only experience of such people has been from the far-right.
Ironically, and very coincidentally, I was supposed to be watching this film this evening :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Broken_Cameras
I walked out after a while as I couldn't stomach watching heavily armed Israeli soldiers shooting at unarmed Palestinian children, and generally brutalising the population, bursting into homes, making arbitrary arrests, etc.
I know the shit that happens in Palestine, I don't need to watch it on a big screen to make myself feel sick and angry.
https://www.****/video/news/video-1387955/Al-Jazeera-Investigations-film-Shai-Masot-undercover.html
Fairly convincing evidence it seems to me.
He is accused of saying: “This is off the record. It’s almost certain who is behind all this anti-Semitism against Jeremy [Corbyn], almost certainly it’s the Israeli embassy.
Since there is video evidence of Mark Regev saying almost exactly that, it does seem a bit strange. But these stories get cranked up as soon as Labour start making progress in the polls so it's no big surprise.
Fairly convincing evidence it seems to me.
If you ask me; Do I think that the Israeli Int services try to infiltrate organisations that are critical of the Irsraeli Gvot, then the answer is; Yes absolutely that goes on, you'd be a fool to think otherwise frankly. That's a criticism you could easily lay at the feet of pretty much every spy organisation from Mossad through the CIA to MI5 to the GRU.
What you can't then do is accuse every Rabbi in the UK of being in the pay of Mossad because they criticise you. Which is what Willsman has done, for the second time now. Amazing how quickly they can move against Alistair Campbell, but when clear Antisemitism exists, then is suspension (for the second time) and an apology, and then business as usual. Which is why the EHRC are investigating the Labour Party for being Institutionally Anti Semitic.
Recently the German Interior minister warned German men to think twice about wearing a Kippah in public, and Angela Merkal has gone on record in a CNN interview to say that there is not a school or Schul in Germany that doesn't have a permanent police presence outside it. Drive past any of the orthodox Schuls in Northern Manchester and see for yourself the big lads on permanent duty outside...
There is genuine fear in the Jewish community in this country that something terrible will happen outside a synagogue or school. That the Labour party then do nothing about idiots like Willsman saying this sort of shit, speaks volumes to them.
And if any of it turned out to be true and the Israeli embassy was stirring up things in the Labour party (which would be understandable as they would hate to have Corbyn in power), what then?
What you can’t then do is accuse every Rabbi in the UK of being in the pay of Mossad because they criticise you. Which is what Willsman has done, for the second time now.
Can you provide the exact quote please? Since the only one I can see mentions a specific letter signed by a group of Rabbis and not "every Rabbi in the UK".
https://twitter.com/alleymb/status/1052304349345574912?s=21
I think this is the video I referred to...
what then?
then you can blame the Israeli Govt.
It is clear that the Israeli Govt has long used the shield of claims of antisemitism to protect itself from criticism. It is a well worn tactic, and one that is easily deflected. I can criticise the govt of Israel all day long without being antisemitic, lots of folk can, and that's absolutely fine. If Pete Willsman had just said that, then no one (apart from the Israelis govt presumably) would have an issue with it.
It becomes antisemitic when you link that claim to other Jews. His actual words about the Rabbis was that 68* of them were obviously organised by the Israeli embassy when they criticised the Labour Party in the Guardian newspaper.
Why is it "Obvious"? To Pete Wilsman it is obvious because he thinks there is doubt over where their loyalty lays. Or he would like you to think that. It is an old antisemitic trope that you can trust Jews because they are in a global conspiracy, that their loyalties lay elsewhere...It's as old as the hills.
* sorry dissonance i'll try to less casual when I'm defending people from victim blaming
It was truly heart-warming to see Jews standing up for Palestinians
I believe the behaviour of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews is primarily motivated by fundamentalist religious beliefs, not sympathy with the Palestinian cause. Their doctrine teaches that it is forbidden to have a Jewish state until the Messiah returns, so they view the existence of the Israeli state as a form of heresy.
Morning all.
Oh, and David Prescott, eh?
Right, back to my breakfast.
I believe the behaviour of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews is primarily motivated by fundamentalist religious beliefs, not sympathy with the Palestinian cause. Their doctrine teaches that it is forbidden to have a Jewish state until the Messiah returns, so they view the existence of the Israeli state as a form of heresy.
That's one of those comments which appears to be so confused and missing the point that you don't really know quite where to start from.
The whole primary reason for establishing Israel in the "Holy Land" ie Palestine, is based on religious belief. The belief that several thousands of years ago God promised the Jews Israel. Israel is the "Promise Land", a claim shared by Christian fundamentalist in the United States who use it to justify their total support for Israel.
If Jews were to be given their own special homeland (I consider a British Jew's homeland to be Britain, an Italian Jew's homeland to be Italy, etc, to suggest otherwise is racist imo) after World War 2, then it should have been, imo, a large chunk of Germany. Quite apart from anything else it would have provided a permanent reminder to arguably the greatest crime against humanity in human history.
The ONLY reason Palestine was chosen was a religious one.
Palestine was chosen in reparation for crimes committed by Europeans over many centuries against Jews, because of religious claims, not because they were already there - 80% of the Arab population had to be either driven out or expelled.
Palestinians who can quite honestly prove that their parents or grandparents owned land in Palestine have no rights, but Jews living the other side of the world who make rather dubious claims that their ancestors lived in Palestine thousands of years have their rights protected by the military and financial might of the West.
How the **** can that be, surely it's not possible? Well it is when you see it as a religious claim. The pro-Zionist Jew who was shouting at the Orthodox Jews at the demonstration "God is on our side" made that very clear.
So if you are going to dismiss the Orthodox Jews opposition to Israel because it is primarily motivated by religious beliefs then you must also dismiss all the support for Israel primarily motivated by religious beliefs.
Incidentally I think it is deeply insulting to suggest that Orthodox Jews "sympathy with the Palestinian cause" is only motived by religion and not genuine. It's like suggesting that Christians aren't really opposed to murder and that they only say it because it's one of the Ten Commandants.
I know that the Good Captain made the comparison between Orthodox Jews and the "Westboro Baptist loons" but this comparison is completely false. The Westboro Baptists represent basically an extended family of well under 100 individuals, out of a total US population of over 300 million. There are about 2.2 million Orthodox Jews in the world and they represent about 20% of the Jewish population of Israel.
Sure, there are indeed some Orthodox Jews who don't oppose Zionism, I wouldn't claim otherwise, but conversely there are also many liberal and secular Jews who don't support Zionism., some of whom were on the Palestinian Solidarity demo in Central London a couple of weeks ago.
The reason I gave the example of the Orthodox Jews was simply to emphasise the point that deeply religious Jews could be opposed to Israel, a rather important point when religion is being used to justify the case for Israel. It also amused me greatly to see Orthodox Jews chanting "shame on you" when a pro-Zionist Jew was shouting "God is on our side"
BTW I am acutely aware that if I was actually a high profile Labour Party member much of what I have posted on this thread could easily be taken out of context and I could now be facing expulsion from the party for anti-Semitism. It is one of several reasons why I have never joined the Labour Party.
Although do I agree with outofbreath that accusations of anti-Semitism probably don't really cost the Labour Party many votes. I think that if people are really concerned about racism then they would recognise that racism directed at Black and Asian people, in terms of discrimination and violence, is far worse.
What it does do though is sow divisions within the party and creates a perception of disunity, which is extremely important to the opponents of the Labour Party. It also very significantly stifles all criticism of Israel. It has been a very long time since I last heard Corbyn (or any other senior Labour politician) condemn Israel. He has remained silent even after the latest UN condemnation of Israel.
Because you probably won't bother reading it :
The panel said in a statement that it had found “reasonable grounds to believe that Israeli snipers shot at journalists, health workers, children and persons with disabilities, knowing they were clearly recognisable as such”.
Thirty-five of those killed were children, three were clearly identifiable paramedics and two were clearly marked journalists, the report said.
They said: “These serious human rights and humanitarian law violations may constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity.”
Although do I agree with outofbreath that accusations of anti-Semitism probably don’t really cost the Labour Party many votes. I think that if people are really concerned about racism then they wouil recognise that racism directed at Black and Asian people, in terms of discrimination and violence, is far worse.
They also wouldn't vote for the Brexit party or indeed the conservative party as racism is much deeper in those parties. Being a bit racist may actually help Labour get some votes...