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FFS... the return of Hatton...!!!
This just gets worse and worse.
...and now gorgeous George G wants to rejoin. Hey ****ing ho.
fwiw I'm not happy with the 7 leaving, or the manner of it - danger of antisemitism etc diluting engagement in this moment of national crisis. I just think it shows the level of frustration. We're heading over the cliff steered by ERG. MPs need some leadership to stop this - which they mainly want to do. Nothing else matters a fraction.
"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right..."
Is this a bandwagon that needs jumping on, why yes, yes it is.
what a time to let these two jokers back in !
Very dark and depressing.
I'm sure the timing was a coincidence.
Right?
Is there an eighth*?
(*not a drugs reference)
There is now!
Isn't Independent Group an oxymoron?
Crikey, only just been announced and the machine has been cranked up to the max already on #JC4PM #GTTO twitter.
The response on twitter to MP #8 might have changed my mind on one aspect of all this. If it is only "a tiny minority" of JC supporters who are antisemitic, as I was still thinking even as I read what was happening to some Labour MPs at their hands, they are now very very good at spreading their bile on social media. Very troubling. Or just well organised noise?
OBEY THE PARTY
Well, I think MPs who resign from their party should be required to seek re-election.
They are. Oh, you mean immediately.
They are. Oh, you mean immediately.
Obviously.
Well, if we can't get a general election, then the next option* is by-elections.
*All options "on the table"
@DD it's amazing how polarising the Israel/Palestine conflict is given how little most people care about foreigners being killed all over the world.
I’ll say one thing for this split, it’s really highlighting how some MPs can stay completely under the radar.for decades whilst collecting a hefty salary. I’m a fairly close follower of politics and before this week had never heard of Joan Ryan, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes or Gavin Shuker.
Hmm… "fairly close", huh - there are hundreds of MPs - don't feel bad about your ignorance about a few of them. Most people only hear from front benchers and the most media savvy of stirrers - you are not alone.
dazh
I’m a fairly close follower of politics and before this week had never heard of Joan Ryan, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes or Gavin Shuker.
I'd heard of Angela Smith- she lost a vote of no confidence last year, partly over her support for fracking and support for privatisation, partly because of her constant criticism of the leadership, and declared that it was all just a cabal of hard left conspirators and ignored it. She was strongly defended by... oh yeah, Chris Leslie and Chukka Umanna. So I'm glad she's come out so strongly about listening to members.
to be fair dazh, there are 262 of the , or is it 25@, or 248 or Jeez, I dunno, it just keeps going down. It’s hard to keep track. Anyway, centrist scumbag splitters the lot of them!
What do we want?
A GENERAL ELECTION!
When do we want it?
NOW!
What do we want?
BY-ELECTIONS!
When do we want them?
DOWSNT MATTER AS LONG AS WE CAN KEP ALL OPTIONS ON THE TABLE!
I’d heard of Angela Smith- she lost a vote of no confidence last year…
She also tried to deliver a petition to Labour HQ recently for a referendum, and was turned away as a security risk.
There is no doubt that the MPs leaving have all been pushed to leave… it's not some selfless act… it is the act of people facing almost certain deselection. Much more of this to come from both of the main parties now… no one will jump without being pushed… but there is a lot of pushing going on.
Of course, when they are pushed out, the cries of "traitors" ring out… no, you told them to "go and join the Tories", or called them "saboteurs"… eventually they'll listen, and leave, as a last desperate resort.
kelvin
She also tried to deliver a petition to Labour HQ recently for a referendum, and was turned away as a security risk.
Nah. She was turned away as they don't accept petitions in person at all, due to security concerns, not because she was seen as a security risk.
Please tell me Diane was one!
Well, I think MPs who resign from their party should be required to seek re-election.
Yep, they are resigning as an MP and resigning from the party they stood for as an MP.
From the minute they resign they should be the standing Labour MP for x days until their resignation is over or by election held
Could they have just said they were changing to Tory and Tories got an extra seat?
Could they have just said they were changing to Tory and Tories got an extra seat?
I think so, yes.
I'm still waiting to see evidence of all this abuse and discrimination and whether it's worse than that received by others in the public eye. If the LP was institutionally racist then how come there are so many LP and so few Tory MPs from minority backgrounds? Even so, 85% of the jewish vote goes to the Tories (source: YouGov). I've have never seen Tories out campaigning against racism. We need a bit more evidence and a bit less harrumph.
Ransos - Labour appeared quite happy for Quentin Davies to cross the floor from the tories to join them without immediately standing in a by-election.
I think so, yes.
Wow, I really didn't realise that. So in theory I could stand as a Tory in a Tory safe seat and then switch to Labour the week after I was elected? That is just clearly wrong.
"Labour Friends of Israel chair Joan Ryan MP" is all you really need to know about her motives and her claims regarding antisemitism.
Kerley, The Absolute Boy* explains it here,
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/11763688769?s=19
*The value of nicknames can go up as well as down. Your party is at risk if you do not have competent leadership etc.
@DrJ: "You're not helping, Louise." 😀
There isn't a 'tory party problems' thread (well maybe the Brexit one). But.... https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1098129345166671872?s=19
How many mps do you need for your own thread?
If the exodus of Labour MPs results with the tories being torn apart as well, then let us all rejoice!!!
And on resign to have a by election the constituency can vote/petition and force one. So it's up to the people they represent. The local Labour Party could organise that but they seriously risk a vote split and losing the seat to a tory in many cases.
So you vote for a person as MP rather than a member of a political party? That seems rather screwed up and allows the situation described above, was not aware of this as I have always voted for the party rather than an individual, my future votes will now be cast differently and I suspect I am not the only one that was mistaken.
There isn’t a ‘tory party problems’ thread (well maybe the Brexit one).
As you hint, all current affairs threads, apart from those specifically about other parties are ‘tory party problems’ threads.
So you vote for a person as MP rather than a member of a political party? That seems rather screwed up and allows the situation described above, was not aware of this as I have always voted for the party rather than an individual, my future votes will now be cast differently and I suspect I am not the only one that was mistaken.
I've always said there should be an exam to be allowed to register to vote. The exam should have one question, "Are you voting for the Prime Minister or your Member of Parliament?"
You can take the exam as often as you like. The important thing is to consciously acknowledge you're not voting for the ****ing PM.
So you vote for a person as MP rather than a member of a political party?
Err, hello! Why do think there's an individuals name on the ballot? In Scotland, where a form of PR is in place for the Holyrood elections, there is a second ballot where you choose Party and MSPs are allocated from a list.
Most people only hear from front benchers and the most media savvy of stirrers – you are not alone.
Hmmm. Even if they're not on the front bench I think you could usually expect to come across most MPs through their activities in campaigns etc. Or maybe they are just massive underachievers who aren't really as active or interested in their constituents as they like to pretend? I feel a bit sorry for Chukka to be honest. Much as I disagree with his politics he does come across as one of the more genuine and competent MPs out there. Now he finds himself surrounded by and allied with the likes of Mike Gapes and Joan Ryan. If ever there was a case of being damned by the people you hang around with, this must be it.
The important thing is to consciously acknowledge you’re not voting for the **** PM.
True. However, party leadership is also important - and when for the first time in decades, MPs start walking out of parties, it’s not a strong look.
Wow, I really didn’t realise that. So in theory I could stand as a Tory in a Tory safe seat and then switch to Labour the week after I was elected? That is just clearly wrong.
What do you think your chances of being selected by the local Tory party would be?
Ransos – Labour appeared quite happy for Quentin Davies to cross the floor from the tories to join them without immediately standing in a by-election.
I sure they were but it doesn't make it right. People will trot out the usual "you vote for your MP, not the party" but that doesn't really wash: MPs campaign as the officially selected candidate of their party, make use of their party's resources, and usually campaign on their party's manifesto. Marginal constituencies are pretty much guaranteed a visit from the party leader. Where I live, a donkey with a red rosette would be elected so the idea that my local MP won because of her superb campaigning skills is utter cobblers.
Seems like Joan Ryan has form ...
Maybe Brown was too anti-Semitic as well?
So you vote for a person as MP rather than a member of a political party? That seems rather screwed up and allows the situation described above, was not aware of this as I have always voted for the party rather than an individual, my future votes will now be cast differently and I suspect I am not the only one that was mistaken.
Yes and No.
In theory it works like this - you vote for the person who you think is best suited to represent the interests of your local area in Westminster.
Whoever wins becomes an MP, goes to Westminster and looks after your interests.
Collectively MPs appoint a leader, the Prime Minister, the PM (I think) assigns the Government Ministers.
But, in reality, it's a Party System, I would guess few people know who their MP is, we mostly vote for a party / leader, it is almost unheard of for MPs to not appoint their party leader as PM (I believe the WW2 Labour / Con coalition government was set up in a time of national crisis in this fashion with a Con PM and Lab Deputy PM) and rare for a PM to appoint a non-party MP into the Government, although I believe Tony Blair did offer a role in Government to a Tory, but don't recall if they took the position or not.
Of course a lot of Corbynites are braying for the MPs who left the party to stand-down and force a by-election, some of them are probably in Labour strongholds and they'd lose, but they don't have to and Labour have called for the opposite when it suits them.
The Indies are, at this moment at least are trying to bring an end to the very party system that probably got them the job in the first place, they've taken one of the biggest risks a Politician can take, if they either don't form a new party, rejoin an existing one or don't change the face of UK politics they're gone in the next election (in which, as it stands they'll be fighting against incredibly well funded Labour candidates) but I think it's commendable.
We've become far too polarised in the UK, there are very few people who actually read or care about what a candidate at local level says or does, and especially not a national level one - you pick your tribe and try to dishearten people from the other side from voting.
If they can bring on centric minded Tories, Lib Dems, Greens and Centric Nationalists from Wales and Scotland to form a free thinking party, free from tribalism and party dogma - they could be a real and good change for the UK.
So you vote for a person as MP rather than a member of a political party? That seems rather screwed up and allows the situation described above, was not aware of this as I have always voted for the party rather than an individual, my future votes will now be cast differently and I suspect I am not the only one that was mistaken.
That's why we are in the situation we are now. You should always vote for the person not the party, that way we get a better chance of decent representatives in parliament, not just tossers putting party needs before their constituents all the time.
This development is certainly not free of tribalism or dogma. Shai Masot of the Israeli embassy was filmed saying how he was using Labour Friends of Israel to 'take down' certain politicians. It should come as no surprise that these LFI members are trying to do just that.
but I think it’s commendable.
They were quite happy to use the party's support, under Corbyn's leadership, to get themselves elected in 2017. Are you seriously suggesting that their reasons for leaving have occurred since then?
That’s why we are in the situation we are now. You should always vote for the person not the party
The government of your choice will have far more impact than a single constituency MP.
They were quite happy to use the party’s support, under Corbyn’s leadership, to get themselves elected in 2017. Are you seriously suggesting that their reasons for leaving have occurred since then?
I really doubt it one single reason that trumps everything else, the real world doesn't work like that, but I'm "seriously suggesting" that since then Corbyn has been utterly useless on Brexit, because he hates the EU as a form of Globalisation so is happy for us all to suffer to achieve his goals, whilst trying to avoid taking too much blame for it, and equally he has done little or nothing to address the anti-Semitism within his party, because he has become so anti-Israel (as am I) that he's become Anti-Jew (which I am not).
because he has become so anti-Israel (as am I) that he’s become Anti-Jew (which I am not)
Do you really believe that? Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong anti-racism campaigner who has done more than most other MPs put together to fight racism is suddenly a jew hater? Really?
So you vote for a person as MP rather than a member of a political party?
It does worry me that some people are allowed to vote, without the faintest idea of what they are actually voting for...
I mean, just imagine if we had a referendum on something important, say like leaving the EU and people like that were offered a vote.. it could all go so horribly wrong.
dazh
Do you really believe that? [b]Jeremy Corbyn[/b], a lifelong anti-racism campaigner who has done more than most other MPs put together to fight racism is suddenly a [b]jew hater[/b]? Really?
Wow, who on earth used that term?
It does worry me that some people are allowed to vote, without the faintest idea of what they are actually voting for
The problem is it is a fair assumption to make that you vote for the party not the person. Whilst the law says its the person over time the party side of things has got more and more prominence.
One of the many parts of our electoral system which could do with a rethink.
The government of your choice will have far more impact than a single constituency MP.
And that government will have a lot more impact and be more effective if it were made up of elected representatives who actually gave a shit about anything other than their own party.
Heidi Allen, Anna Soubry and Sarah Woolaston have all just resigned
So its now a cross-party 'problem'
Do you really believe that? Jeremy Corbyn, a lifelong anti-racism campaigner who has done more than most other MPs put together to fight racism is suddenly a jew hater? Really?
No sorry, got a bit ranty there. I meant he's allowing it within the party by not dealing with it.
Centric Nationalists from Wales and Scotland
I'd consider both Plaid Cymru and the SNP to be "centric" already.
And that government will have a lot more impact and be more effective if it were made up of elected representatives who actually gave a shit about anything other than their own party.
I have some time for that argument, but it doesn't work in the context of our FPTP electoral system. You only get the government you want to see by voting for that party's candidate in your constituency.
I’d consider both Plaid Cymru and the SNP to be “centric” already.
There's a few hard-lefties in both parties, but for the most party I was trying to avoid talking right wing nationalists, they're well, quite different of course 😉
You only get the government you want to see by voting for that party’s candidate in your constituency.
Exactly. I might have the best intentioned tory MP in the country but if he wins the seat it is another tory seat towards their majority and the polices and actions of the tory government are what the country have to suffer, not the one well intentioned tory mp.
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Satire is dead.
It now appears that Hatton has been suspended...!!! That didn’t take very long.
But this party quite happy to embrace these nasty old trotyites is ready to run the country, apparently
GO JEZZA!!
And gorgeous George putting in a star turn.
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1098167958571008006
"Full Livingstone." 😆
Look at these nasty bunch of antisemites denying the obvious antisemite issues and claiming that Corbyn is anti racist. Misguided fools; what could 200 prominent Jewish academics, professionals and scholars know about it anyway?
But this party quite happy to embrace these nasty old trotyites is ready to run the country, apparently
GO JEZZA!!
Whereas the TINGE party are off to a cracking start.
investigation into a tweet he posted in 2012 blaming Jews for Israeli government policy.
The tweet, which resurfaced after he was readmitted to the party on Monday, said: “Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”
Now, I'm no expert, but that looks like something that has been taken out of context purely to stir the pot. Would be interesting to see what it exactly was this tweet was referencing.
I think you could usually expect to come across most MPs through their activities in campaigns
Activities??? Don’t think you’ve met our local MP
Interesting character, this Hatton chap.
Apparently he has recently made a lot of money out of property development, which begs the question, why isn't he in the Tory party?