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It's also how our political parties are funded, until you come up with a better solution we're stuck with it. At least Labour have a relationship with Unions unlike the other major parties.
In the UK labour, snp, lib dems and greens clearly follow a social democratic path. Have the tories ( with their fellow travelers ukip) ever fallen below 30% in england?
Er, no, I just said as much in the comment you're replying to.
Threre is a clear political differnce in voting patterns between scotland and england
Uh huh, 55-70% vs 70-85% so on average a 15% split. But that's all noise, what we should be asking is why so many vote for SD but get Tories instead. It's not Scotland getting robbed, it's everyone. This is why I get so annoyed with nationalism, instead of engaging with the actual problem the blame gets laid at the door of the "English". You can say what you like about Civic nationalism but at the end of the day you are still blaming someone else for our collective systemic issues. If you think that will change just because our borders get smaller you're going to be sorely disappointed.
There are good reasons for independence but hanging your coat on some utopian dream of elections that leave everyone happy and corruption free politics isn't a good start.
You are saying tory support in England has been down to 30 %. I don't think it has.
I would prefer a proportional and federal UK government but its never going to happen . I also want to remain in the EU.
The only way I am going to get a representative government is in an independent Scotland
It’s also how our political parties are funded, until you come up with a better solution we’re stuck with it.
Sounds like the sort of thing an independent country should be able to decide.
At least Labour have a relationship with Unions unlike the other major parties.
I'm not convinced thats necessarily good. Did the Unions not have a big part in putting Corbyn in charge and making them unelectable. They'll vigorously deny it but the Unions and Momentum are indirectly to blame for Brexit, a hard-Brexit, and Borris.
The only way I am going to get a representative government is in an independent Scotland
Why? If the social democratic voters of Scotland decide they will vote for a party that has a reasonable change of power in Westminster they would be able to achieve their aim. I believe there are more than one or your self defined "social democratic" parties that stand in 600 plus seats
For the social democrats of Scotland the decision is about voting for a Piper or a bag of wind at Westminster
The problem with that approach is that it always depends on voters in England making the same choice and we're not really seeing any sign of that happening.. But let's suppose the Tories manage to fluff the next UKGE.How long before the win another? Do you think Starmer might manage two terms? Three? And in the meantime he is in thrall to the very folk that voted for Brexit and then elected a Tory Government to see it through. That will always play against the Labour Party in Scotland.
You are saying tory support in England has been down to 30 %. I don’t think it has.
Well feel free to look at the figures I linked to from exactly the same site you pulled yours from. In fairness that was 1997 (30.7%) however they only broke the 40% share in the last 3 years. (I'm just going by the last 30 years since that's a reasonable timescale)
Did the Unions not have a big part in putting Corbyn in charge and making them unelectable. They’ll vigorously deny it but the Unions and Momentum are indirectly to blame for Brexit, a hard-Brexit, and Borris.
I'm one of those union voters. Yeah I did and based on what I knew then I'd have done it again. In fact I did after the PLP didn't accept it the first time around. Maybe if the rest of the party hadn't done its damnest to discredit him he may have been more electable. Who knows? But that's ignoring my point entirely, good union bashing angle though.
Sounds like the sort of thing an independent country should be able to decide.
Indeed, or any country for that matter. But you haven't come up with a solution. What's the alternative? Fund any party from a central pot? That couldn't possibly go badly wrong could it? I rather like the thought that the likes of the BNP have to beg for money from a limited audience.
The problem with that approach is that it always depends on voters in England making the same choice and we’re not really seeing any sign of that happening.. But let’s suppose the Tories manage to fluff the next UKGE.How long before the win another? Do you think Starmer might manage two terms? Three? And in the meantime he is in thrall to the very folk that voted for Brexit and then elected a Tory Government to see it through. That will always play against the Labour Party in Scotland.
I'm not quoting this for any other reason than to say I completely agree. Of course if other parties were willing to engage in coalitions then it could work but since they won't...
I can't decide whether big_n_daft is being a troll or not
Why? If the social democratic voters of Scotland decide they will vote for a party that has a reasonable change of power in Westminster they would be able to achieve their aim. I believe there are more than one or your self defined “social democratic” parties that stand in 600 plus seats
By your very statement above, the Party would have to be supported by English voters - therefore Scots will only get who the English vote for.
The problem with that approach is that it always depends on voters in England making the same choice and we’re not really seeing any sign of that happening..
Well if the "social democratic" vote in Scotland is split and a good chunk going to a geographically limited party that essentially can't form a coalition with a Unionist party then your predicament is self sustaining
But let’s suppose the Tories manage to fluff the next UKGE.How long before the win another? Do you think Starmer might manage two terms? Three?
The party in power changes regularly in healthy democracies
And in the meantime he is in thrall to the very folk that voted for Brexit and then elected a Tory Government to see it through. That will always play against the Labour Party in Scotland.
Starmer the remainer in thrall to brexitiers, if you say so.....
By your very statement above, the Party would have to be supported by English voters – therefore Scots will only get who the English vote for.
Imagine cross UK support for the party in office at Westminster, led by the best talent across the UK, no-one really caring whether the seat held by the PM is in the Rhonda, Essex, or Lanarkshire even one day Belfast.
Anyway back to the ABE discussion
I really don't get how people can genuinely think the SNP can only ever be a "bag of wind" at Westminster. They're the third biggest party and with FPTP, gerrymandering, and the quiet death of the Lib Dems, the likelihood of them being part of the next government is higher than it's ever been. And it was only just missed before. Because of how broken the system is, it's extremely hard for Labour to form a government by themselves- and pretty much impossible that they could do a Johnston and be a "landslide majority" government with 42%, or a Cameron and be a "majority" with 36.9%, or a May, and form a government with 42% +.9% while Labour with 40% get treated like small fry and any two of the top 4 parties outpolled the "winner". The electoral science just means that the Tories can form governments with less votes.
Course, as soon as that starts to arise we'll get the whole "Scotland: Enemies of the People" schtick again but though I'm not too impressed with Starmer so far, I don't think he'd fall for that hook line and sinker like Miliband did, when he ended up ruling out forming a government with himself. Use it as a barometer though- if Johnston or whoever replaces him is on the campaign trail accusing Nicola Sturgeon of stealing OUR money, it means they've realised that a Labour/SNP partnership is a likely outcome.
Right now, some people seem to want to criticise the SNP but give Labour a pass for the exact same thing- simply being in opposition. But they've arguably achieved more in that position than Labour have, due to working the system. Unless you think Joanna Cherry's legal action was "wind". And hell, even if the SNP vanished overnight and every vote went to Labour it wouldn't change the sheer ****ery of a system that gives you an unassailable, abuse-it-how-you-like majority with a minority of votes
I really don’t get how people can genuinely think the SNP can only ever be a “bag of wind” at Westminster. They’re the third biggest party and with FPTP, gerrymandering, and the quiet death of the Lib Dems, the likelihood of them being part of the next government is higher than it’s ever been.
Turkey's don't vote for Christmas, any government that relies on SNP votes will need to agree to another referendum, that referendum could lead to the SNP MP's no longer having a seat at Westminster, oops you are no longer in government
I have no doubt that the SNP have some talented people and some no so talented or down right unsavoury characters (although they seem to then tend to occupy a weird "not SNP but still in the seat space") but all parties whether you like them or not are the same to some degree or other. The issue comes from the questioner starting with the answer "independence" and then framing a question on the issue to get to that.
As for gerrymandering...
The number of people able to vote (the electorate) differs by constituency. The Office for National Statistics gives the average electorate across constituencies of about:
72,200 in England
67,200 in Scotland
68,300 in Northern Ireland
56,000 in Wales
That well known Tory heartland of Wales needs sorting out