[Closed] Labour in Scotland - whats the way back?

Independence from Labour in England would be top of my list

I’m pro union so not inclined to vote SNP
I’m an actual human so not inclined to vote Tory

Currently that leaves me with Lib Dem or Greens. Seems to me to be a space there for Labour if they sort themselves out

Lib dems are almost dead in Scotland.

I think that's a reasonably fair analysis from the OP - and the answer is there are no easy answers for Labour in Scotland. The reversal of their fortunes have been swift and significant.

My own feeling is that they need to wait it out for independence, and then watch the SNP rightly implode after that. After all, the SNP should be a single issue party.

An independent country offers Labour, the Tories (perhaps) and the Lib Dems a shot at redemption that they simply don't deserve while tied to the London machines.

I have sympathy for Frank Sinatra, but I have shift from a 2014 No to a 2021 Hell Yeah. The genie ain't going back in the bottle, so we might as well rip the bandaid off sooner rather than later. There is no repairing the festering sore of the Union IMHO these days. That saddens me in some ways, but also, better to accept it and move on quickly to start building something new and hopefully better.

Labour's challenge there is to offer a vision of what new and better can be - and it needs to be more than simply 'not Tory'. I think Brexit has changed things, but also the SNP have gained traction because the vision (such as it is) they are spelling out now is trying to move toward something, rather than simply being about moving away from London and all that entails.

Positive, credible visions to move towards are a good thing.

Start a thread Labour in England - what's the way back? cos I think that's the issue too. The hope of a UK wide Labour government is the only thing keeping some folk hanging on in Scotland and the increased probability of it would hit the SNP vote. Realistically I don't expect to see such a thing for the next couple of UKGEs.

Maybe Baron Robertson of Port Erroll and Baron Foulkes of Cumnock can come up with a plan.

Do you think Labour supporting some kind of federalised system for the UK nations would get support in Scotland? Or has that ship already sailed?

I think labour in England are on the way back and have never hit the depths that they have in Scotland. I think labour in Scotland is now down to its die hard core voters and no way back is in sight.

I am pragmatic on independence - as it stands now my judgement is that independence would improve quality of life in Scotland but I am not ideologically wedded to it. Some aspects of the snp I loathe ( too centralising and too close to the hunting shooting fishing criminals)

I would like to see a scottish labour that I could vote for again

They have a really basic problem in that anything that's good for Scotland is perceived as a threat to their Britishness.

It's really stifling. So they should change their position on independence.

Can't say I've studied it much, but looking at the timeline of their problems, does anyone think that Magic Grandpa going back to the back benches and Labour moving to the centre again will at least help them with the Unionists in Scotland?

I think a more conciliatory approach is needed on both sides. I'm not an advocate of separation, see Brexit, however I don't think than an England-centric so called UK government is the right way. Leave "United Kingdom" and "Great Britain" in the past. Go forward with a coalition of governments representing the four nations equally and start working together like adults rather than bickering like children. Just a thought.

Do you think Labour supporting some kind of federalised system for the UK nations would get support in Scotland? Or has that ship already sailed?

ywes. How much I do not know but if they could pursuade on "the best of both worlds" Of vcourse Brexit really has scuppered this and its hard to see what the federal solution could be given the relative size of the 4 countries but a decent federal solution would answer some questions.

PJay - not really. the issues are Scottish ones. the behaviour of scottish labour over the last decade+ has been a real turn off to the voters. Opposing everything the SNP want to do regardless of its merits and carping from the back benches along with the disastrous NO campaign.

tjagain

ywes. How much I do not know but if they could pursuade on “the best of both worlds” Of vcourse Brexit really has scuppered this and its hard to see what the federal solution could be given the relative size of the 4 countries but a decent federal solution would answer some questions.

I would hope that England be split into smaller regions. That could be beneficial for the areas of England currently forgotten about, such as anything outside London, and make it an easier sell to NI, Wales and Scotland.

Keir did raise discussion around federalism before Covid struck so I would think it's still a possibility he will run with.

Not interested, just get independence done so we can have honest and fair debates and elections where we get who we vote for.

along with the disastrous NO campaign.

Err NO won...

It may have been a pyrrhic one but they won

Not interested, just get independence done so we can have honest and fair debates and elections where we get who we vote for.

Electoral nirvana, or a fairy tale to everyone else

Perhaps the SNP and Labour need to look to how the CSU/CDU work in Germany. Bavaria is the one state that is always harping on about breaking away form the rest of the country so the parallels are quite strong.

EDIT: I am working on the (perhaps) naive assumption, that Labour and the SNP share many core values and, ap[art form the union/Independence thing could complement one another quite well.

From wiki

"The Christian Social Union in Bavaria (CSU) is a Christian-democratic and conservative political party in Germany. Having a regionalist identity, the CSU operates only in Bavaria while its larger counterpart, the Christian Democratic Union (CDU), operates in the other fifteen states of Germany. It differs from the CDU by being somewhat more conservative in social matters, following the Catholic social teaching. The CSU is considered the de facto successor of the Weimar-era Catholic Bavarian People's Party.

At the federal level, the CSU forms a common faction in the Bundestag with the CDU which is frequently referred to as the Union Faction (die Unionsfraktion) or simply CDU/CSU. The CSU has had 46 seats in the Bundestag since the 2017 federal election, making currently it the smallest of the seven parties represented. The CSU is a member of the European People's Party and the International Democrat Union.

The CSU currently has three ministers in the cabinet of Germany of the federal government in Berlin, including former party leader Horst Seehofer who is Federal Minister of the Interior while party leader Markus Söder serves as Minister-President of Bavaria, a position that CSU representatives have held from 1946 to 1954 and again since 1957."

big_n_daft
Electoral nirvana, or a fairy tale to everyone else

Like the electoral nirvana and fairy tale enjoyed by the Irish? or the Maltese? or the Canadians? or the USA? etc etc etc

Yes please.

My own feeling is that they need to wait it out for independence, and then watch the SNP rightly implode after that. After all, the SNP should be a single issue party.

Tbh I used to think like that, once the SNP achieved their goal, they were spent, but they've grown to become much more than just a separation movement.

An independent country offers Labour, the Tories (perhaps) and the Lib Dems a shot at redemption that they simply don’t deserve while tied to the London machines.

I hope that post-independence the political landscape will change immeasurably, and the left, right and centre ground will be subsequently taken up by newly founded parties, with no ties to these traditional dinosaurs and their previous baggage.

Do you think Labour supporting some kind of federalised system for the UK nations would get support in Scotland? Or has that ship already sailed?

Purely my own thoughts, Federalism isn't something I'd be particularly interested in.

Like the electoral nirvana and fairy tale enjoyed by the Irish? or the Maltese? or the Canadians? or the USA? etc etc etc

Yes please.

Honest and fair debates?

Malta essentially a front for organised crime

Canada, https://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/42187/20200823/scandal-and-leadership-changes-influencing-the-course-of-canadian-politics

US!!!!!!

Scotland historically has had more representation in the UK parliament than most other parts of the country. Your argument is the same as arguing that London doesn't get who it votes for.

If the SNP is your gold standard for honest and fair then you have set a low bar

The current conservative government is fast tracking it's implosion, they are very unlikely to win again

to become much more than just a separation movement.

Is that code for kleptocracy?

Independence from Labour in England would be top of my list

Agree. SNP and Labour are fairly close in their intentions with one obvious exception!. The SNP is pretty much a Scottish led Labour party and is who I would vote for if I was in Scotland as they care more about Scotland than a party that has the whole of the UK to deal with.

The current conservative government is fast tracking it’s implosion, they are very unlikely to win again

Currently ahead in the polls I thought?

Currently ahead in the polls I thought?

But not out of sight, Starmer has to rebuild a party before he can shift the polls, libdems may suddenly refresh etc etc

The current government has to avoid a new "harrying of the North" through Covid lockdowns, if it waits to London is hit before helping then they will not recover, the shires are in revolt of the daft planning changes etc etc

along with the disastrous NO campaign.

Err NO won…

It may have been a pyrrhic one but they won

Disastrous for the labour party

Labour and the SNP keep on swapping places as to which is further left but basically there is only a fag papaer between them on most policy. Thats why the labour / tory non aggression pact so enraged me. labour in Scotland have forgotton who the enemy is.|

Murry Scotlands sole labour MP was the architect of this.

I was a lifelong labour voter and member. It will take me a long time to forgive them for better together and that bungle-c Murphy. So from that point of view the no campaign was a disaster for them,they have paid for it is subsequent Holyrood and Westminster elections.

Can’t say I’ve studied it much, but looking at the timeline of their problems, does anyone think that Magic Grandpa going back to the back benches and Labour moving to the centre again will at least help them with the Unionists in Scotland?

It will certainly help to some extent, because the "anti-tory" vote has choices as does the "anti-SNP" vote. BUT in a FPTP world the winners aren't necessarily as simple as that anyway. The irony is that both conservatives and labour would be winning seats in Scotland if they backed reform to a STV or other reform like that.

I think labour in England are on the way back...

Are they? or is the current cabinet just such a shambles.

An end to the Bain principle of automatically opposing everything the SNP does. Instead of SNP baaaaaaaaad

Thats a consequence of majority governments thought isn't it? When minority governments need consensus everyone has to play sensibly - when the policy is likely to get voted through anyway you get yah boo politics.

Poly - they have done it consistently since losing power. ( labour). other parties engaged constructively and nudged the direction even the tories did so well. labour acted destructively and paid the price.

SNP have needed others votes most of the time. labour simply refused to play and sulked

A Labour government at Westminster may help to raise their profile in Scotland. Not sure enough to unseat the entrenched current incumbents though. No point in hoping for a fresh start due to independence as there will be no referendum. They have a long hard slog ahead of them to be even seen as worthy and credible opposition.

big_n_daft
Scotland historically has had more representation in the UK parliament than most other parts of the country. Your argument is the same as arguing that London doesn’t get who it votes for.

That's an amazing statement.

Which country are you talking about? England, Wales, NI?

Because it really doesn't matter what Scotland votes for, we get what England wants. It's 70 years since we voted Tory for example, we voted 62% against Brexit.

. No point in hoping for a fresh start due to independence as there will be no referendum.

Assuming as seems likely pro independence parties have a large holyrood majority on a ticket of "independence now" as seems likely then IMO independence will take a couple of years ( plus transition). A section 30 order is not the only way.

Can’t say I’ve studied it much, but looking at the timeline of their problems, does anyone think that Magic Grandpa going back to the back benches and Labour moving to the centre again will at least help them with the Unionists in Scotland?

Labour has exactly the same number of Scottish seats now that it had in 2015, so it's difficult to see what difference Corbyn's departure would make. I suspect the answer is as some posters have outlined above: acceptance that a Labour government would require SNP support.

Labour will come back in Scotland, eventually as a party of government, only after more autonomy is gained by Scotland, not before. I fear that means full on independence, as politicians south of the border are too focussed on their own constituencies and careers to do any of the work towards a federal UK, or enshrining even the current levels of autonomy in law that can not be revoked by English MPs playing to their own bases and interests.

Scottish Labour's main problem is being the northern branch of UK Labour. Party before country is essential for them as UK Labour will struggle to win a UK GE without reclaiming a significant proportion of Scottish and Northern English seats back from the SNP and Tories. Scottish Labour have had a succession of halfwit leaders, lay with the Tories in 2014 and are currently irrelevant in Scotland. Scottish Unionists from the landed gentry to working class Sevco true blue loyal defenders of the faith, find common ground in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party, despite that not being in the latter's interests. The SNP have struck a chord with many ordinary (previously Labour) voters and, despite some unwelcome centralisation and a few scandals, don't look like losing their base anytime soon. Indeed, Westminster's handling of Brexit and Covid are a gift to the SNP. Labour will struggle to become relevant again in Scotland for many years to come. Losing their Red Wall in Northern England further confounds their hopes for power. SKS may be their best shot at turning the wall back to red but but I doubt he'll turn many voters in Scotland.

iirc there is only one election since WW2 where taking out the scottish seats make a difference to who has the majority in westminster

There is no way back, look forwards. Scotland will gain independence, so the SNP and other parties north of the current border shall evolve into a new party system for Holyrood. Don't know what happens to Westminster, but I also reckon Northern Ireland and eventually Wales shall leave the union. I think demographically the Tories are in trouble, and what we are seeing now in the USA and UK is a right wing flare up to counteract these pressures - migration caused by climate change and unregulated markets, resistance by the rich status quo to the death of the carbon economy, resistance by the status quo to the appalling distribution of wealth across society.

The right will lose all these battles and there will be a shift to the left, but I hope the settled position of society becomes slightly left of centre, because extremities are bad.

Where labour ends up in Holyrood or Westminster depends how the party/parties evolve relative to these forces. They're better placed for long term survival than the tories. Unregulated capitalism, that the Tories can't let go of, shall die under the three pronged attack of anthropogenic climate change, the unsustainability of eternal economic growth, and proletariat intolerance of wealth distribution. The only thing that shall prolong the dominance of current economic models and the right is substantial depopulation (say from a pandemic) enabling growth to reoccur with reduced negative ramifications.

50m of Bacofoil only £4.99 at Asda btw.

Scottish Labour’s main problem is being the northern branch of UK Labour

And a string of charmless, clueless, soulless leaders....

Gray, Dugdale and the current whippet. Dreadful.

The poor leaderships seems to be endemic in Scots labour. I was no fan of Dewar but since him?

No mention of Baron McConnell of Glenscorrodale?

Another fine Socialist. Look, he's even wearing red.

I had flushed him from memory Colin!. See him fairly regularly on Arran, small man syndrome tastic.

Jack Mcconnel! a prime west coast apparatchik. they even tried the " anyone but Mcconnel" candidates first but they were even worse.

A shining example of all that is wrong in Scottish labour

iirc there is only one election since WW2 where taking out the scottish seats make a difference to who has the majority in westminster

Historically, yes when it was a two horse race and the SNP were nowhere for much of the post war era. They are now very strong, largely at Labour's expense. The SNP surpassed the 1987 'magnificent 50' Scottish Labour MPs of 1987 with 56 SNP MPs in 2015. Clearly the 1987 Labour total was a reaction to Maggie / Miners Strike etc and the 2015 SNP total was a reaction to being duped by 'Better Together' and the 'Vow', not to mention EVEL etc after the Indyref. The problem SKS has is exactly the same Kinnock had in 1987 and 1992; working class people voting for another left / centrist party. Splitting the centre left vote will always hand victory to the Tories. Doesn't matter why, but SDP / Liberal Alliance and SNP votes are largely made up of ex-labour voters. He'll struggle to get them back while Scottish Labour continue to attack the SNP rather than the Tories. Of course, if Scottish Labour do support another Indyref, what purpose does Scottish Labour then serve that isn't served by the SNP? Federalism / Devo Max? The broken 'Vow' suggests that won't happen. They should have cornered the working class unionist vote years ago but their leaders didn't have the calibre to persuade the electorate.

Look at the numbers. Take out all scots MPs and it makes no difference to who has a majority in Westminster and also the SNP will support a minority labour government but never a tory one

I used to think as you do as well but on closer analysis it does not hold up.

Edit - SNP taking all the scots seats means less for both labourr and tories - but more for the anti tory parties and the SNP are more anti tory than the labour party.

UK Labour are running scared of the "In Sturgeons pocket" line when they should be pointing out the relationship with the Tories and the likes of the DUP.

Indeed. Mind you given how Sturgeons popularity has increased it might not be too damaging anyway

I'm not sure her popularity has increased. The recent lockdown confusion restrictions ( is it a cafe/restaurant) served as a diversion from when it was made knowledgeable that she "forgot" about a meeting in which she believes she was told about harassment complaints against Alex Salmond. Basically amounts to misleading parliament. There seems to be a growing feeling that there is a lid being kept on the Salmond issues and nurse it along until after next year's elections. Ex labour representative George Galloway may become a thorn in their side now too.

Galloway is a __________

Self aggrandising...

Indefatigable person

Because it really doesn’t matter what Scotland votes for, we get what England wants.

To be honest you are just going down the identity rabbithole with a myopia that excludes everything you don't want to see. The UK parliament is for the UK, we have had plenty of Scots sat in the great offices of state. Your premise that "England" is a single cultural identity that drives UK politics is patent bollocks. The current state of UK politics isn't brilliant but it could be a lot worse and it needs to improve. The Scottish nationalist exceptionalism about the future nirvana of iS politics is a fairytale based on any real world experience of the past and current behaviours.

Getting back to the original point, Labour has the problem that it needs to inspire the centre that it has a plan and gain people's confidence it can deliver it. Some of this is a policy issue, but announcing anything near the centre risks having it stolen and adopted by the incumbents, the next is attracting talent there are too many grifters working their identity niche, they need people who can catch the imagination and draw people to them, finally they need to focus on taking apart the incumbents in Hollywood and Westminster and exposing issues that needs brains and a focus.

I saw Murphy the day after the 2015 election, he was sat in his car. He had the look of a man who was going to run a hosepipe from the exhaust...

For me if you support the Union that means you accept whichever party the majority of the English voters elect, and I can't see it not been right-wing for a seriously long time so you have to accept that you're voting Tory (no matter what YOU put on the ballot).

The current state of UK politics isn’t brilliant but it could be a lot worse and it needs to improve. The Scottish nationalist exceptionalism about the future nirvana of iS politics is a fairytale based on any real world experience of the past and current behaviours.

Its not exceptionalism to want the government you vote for, the government that will institute policies you want. The real world experience is that the scottish governments govern better and have the interests of the scots people at heart. Westminster does neither

Remeber 80% of scots voters vote for social democratic parties.

Well, you're going to get Tory or a Labour Govt that is only there because it is Tory-lite, having adopted whatever Tory policies it has to in order to be elected.

Its not exceptionalism to want the government you vote for,

I think it's pretty fair to say that the vast majority of people who cast a vote in a GE want a Westminster government by the party they vote for. But in the UK if you vote for a party that isn't standing in most of the 650 seats then it's fair to say you already recognise you aren't going to get that. That's your choice, it's no different to electing an independent MP, you should accept that to demand government by that person is unreasonable.

the government that will institute policies you want.

People often vote on a "least worst basis", plenty of people have rather shocking views on a number of issues, I'm personally glad they don't get what they want and have to vote for what are essentially mainstream policies

The real world experience is that the scottish governments govern better and have the interests of the scots people at heart.

Are you sure? Have you drunk the Kool-aid? I would suggest that the Scottish government and it's policies continue the fine UK tradition of bunging money to grifters and fellow travellers. Failing in key areas and managing to bareface out any challenges due to the paucity of the opposition.

Westminster does neither

I presume there is a special lamp post for Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling etc etc come the revolution. After all they failed to have the interests of Scots people at heart when in power, the worst betrayal of all.

Remeber 80% of scots voters vote for social democratic parties.

As you well know this changes over time, just because an area votes one way doesn't mean it will always be that way. Even parties have moved where they are on the political spectrum

Load of piffle big and daft. 80% of scots have been voting for social democratic parties for decades

SNP government have done a load of good stuff including saving 10% of NHS spending by removing the internal market which of course also allows better planning. Stopping PFI, Mitigating the worst effects of tory cuts on benefits, keeping private companies out of benefit assessments, cleaning up corruption and ending expenses scandels

what you forget in you waffle is scotland is a country.

I do not think everything the SNP do is great but there is no doubt at all they act to the benefit of scotland not the UK

Of course the Blair labour government did not act in the interests of Scotland - they were the westminster government and frequently the needs of the two are differnt

Anyway =- its a long way from the discussion point of "how can labour recover in Scotland"

but there is no doubt at all they act to the benefit of scotland not the UK

As do all separatist movements

what you forget in you waffle is scotland is a country.

With the Same head of state who entered a political and fiscal union hundreds of years ago. The population of which very recently voted to keep the Union. ( I assume you will mount the old argument that things have changed, people should get the vote as often as they want (until you get the answer you want then the shutters come down) etc etc) Scots have led the UK you might not like what they did but they were in the seat of power making decisions.

Anyway =- its a long way from the discussion point of “how can labour recover in Scotland”

No it's not, Keir Hardie was happy enough to represent constituencies in England and Wales, the founding father of the movement demonstrating it's above the separatist politics of the aggrieved.

My goodness - how do you start to counter that load of piffle - best ignored I guess.

One thing they have to do, then a choice of one of two things.

1) The essential change- Stop treating the Tories as allies and the SNP as the hated enemy. They worked so hard to put Theresa May back into power in 2017, without the Labour-facilitated scottish tory resurgence she couldn't have formed her DUP alliance. Not only is that obviously a disaster, they thought it was a victory. Most of them still do.

If I could hold a purge, I'd find every single Labour MSP and MP and councellor that was delighted with every SNP seat lost to the Tories, and every one who said "Our voting share is up 2.8%!", and throw them in a volcano.

2) The choice. Either have a competent scottish leader and be independent, or have a useless scottish leader and be operated like a sockpuppet by a competent Westminster leader. It's strange but the better the Scottish leader, the more they get treated like a branch office, and the more useless they are, the more faith the westminster lead has in them. Corbyn's approach to the Scottish party could have worked if it hadn't been bloody awful Dugdale. And Miliband's treatment of the leadership would have been totally valid for a Dugdale, Murphy, or Richard "Who?" Leonard, but was totally wrong for Johann Lamont, the only halfdecent leader they've had this decade. Where is Starmer while Leonard proves his absolute uselessness?

Unless they sort these two, they're not even pointless, they're counterproductive. The goals of the Labour movement in Scotland would, for the last 3 elections, have been better served if the party had just vanished. Right now, they've risen to a sort of benevolent irrelevance, which would be better than the recent alternatives if they showed any signs of rising past it.

I hate it tbh. I mean, I'm an SNP voter, but I used to vote Labour tactically for years, since the SNP couldn't win in my seat. Now? I don't know what I'd do in that situation.

If every seat in Scotland had returned a Labour MP, the power would still be with the Tories… not just to control the UK government, but to strip the Scottish government of the powers and responsibilities it currently has. With the rest of the UK as it is politically, independence is the only way for Scotland to have any real say over the future of the country… I’m strongly unionist… but Scotland will be doing what I don’t want it to do… soon… to not do so would be to lose even what autonomy they have now, never mind to gain more.

Of course the Blair labour government did not act in the interests of Scotland – they were the westminster government.

Of course, its a well known fact that devolution was instigated in the late days of the Major government.

TJ, just because you don't agree with someone's viewpoint that does not make it "piffle". Ironically this is the sort of nonsense I'd expect from our present Labour incumbents. Other points of view exist.

If its factually incorrect?

Some aspects of the snp I loathe

nothing to do with independence though

kelvin
Full Member

If every seat in Scotland had returned a Labour MP, the power would still be with the Tories…

In 2017, no. Without the 13 Scottish tories, May couldn't have formed a government with the DUP's 10 MPs. In fact the electoral maths meant that all she could have done, was form a dead-woman-walking minority government that could achieve basically nothing because the balance of MPs were opposed. In practice it'd have been another election.

Without the 13 Scottish tories, May couldn’t have formed a government with the DUP’s 10 MPs

And without the support of Labour in Scotland, there wouldn't have been 13 Scottish Tories.

Poah - correct which is why at the next Holyrood election I will lend my vote to the SNP in order to get independence

Northwind - correct. SNP taking votes off labour does not change things but Labour making way for 13 Scots tories did. The maths tho is still such that if you took out all scots MPs it would not have changed the government

Scotroutes - utterly disgraceful behaviour from labour and until they remember who the enemy is I will not vote for them. Scots labour people cheering tory wins is a sight I thought I would never see and Ian Murray was one of the main architects I believe.

disgraceful behaviour from an appalling man

scotroutes
Full Member

And without the support of Labour in Scotland, there wouldn’t have been 13 Scottish Tories.

Exactly. But like I say, most of the party leadership doesn't even acknowledge that was a mistake. Some of them genuinely think they had a good election. I mean, ffs, I'm Edinburgh South West and we damn nearly lost Joanna Cherry, and our Labour candidate was pleased as punch that his anti-SNP messaging had "hurt the independence movement"- even though it cost him votes and pushed him into 3rd. Mental. I barely saw a Tory leaflet let alone a doorstepper because they just sat back and let Choudhury do it for them.

And he's not even an actual halfwit despite appearances, he's a succesful and smart dude and seems all-round decent, except that he'd cut off his own knob if he thought the bloodstains would inconvenience Nicola Sturgeon.

If its factually incorrect?

Then prove as much. Put your money down.

I think your 80% figure is well out FWIW, in my bubble sure but 80% of the people outside it definitely don't strike me as the types. If I'm wrong feel free to put the figures in front of me but don't make the mistake of equating votes for a party as votes for a policy.

2019 GE
SNP Scottish National Party 45.0%
CON Conservative 25.1%
LAB Labour 18.6%
LD Liberal Democrat 9.5%
GRN Green 1.0%

75% social democratic parties

2016 Scottish election
SNP Scottish National Party 46.5
LAB Scottish Labour 22.6
CON Scottish Conservatives 22.0
LD Scottish Lib Dems 7.8
GRN Scottish Green Party 0.6
OTH OTHERS 0.5

78% social democratic parties

97 - 83% social democratic parties

2015 - 85% social democratic

Since 1979 tories have only once polled more than 30% and average is around 20% dropping to 15% so guess what - average is around 80% social democratic parties maybe 75%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1057795/scottish-election-results/

Infact thats wrong - tories have not polled over 30% since 79. 79 was the last time they did.

I thought I would actually work out the average to be helpful

since 1974 the average social democratic vote in Scotland is 78%

tories have not had the largest share of the vote in scotland since 1955

If its factually incorrect?

Go on enlighten us did I get Keir Hardie's biography wrong?

tories have not had the largest share of the vote in scotland since 1955

So the voting pattern in Scotland has changed over time and could not unreasonably be expected to change again?

I will lend my vote to the SNP in order to get independence

Englishman voting for Scots independence. As an aside how many nationalists who promised to leave the UK if there was a "no" vote actually went anywhere?

As for the 80% figure since 1979 you have had two UK Scottish "social democratic" prime ministers in that period. Strangely enough the one with the English constituency didn't get the "wrong accent/ wrong birthplace" abuse that the current Scottish labour leader gets north of the border.

Labour need to be electable in Westminster to recover in Scotland, their premise then becomes about having elected Scottish MP's in the offices of state making decisions, as opposed to Ian Blackford's crew stuck in no-mans land making overlong and futile speeches from the green benches. Essentially do you want your MP to be a Piper or a bag of wind?

My goodness – how do you start to counter that load of piffle – best ignored I guess.

I suppose if "independence" is the answer to everything, any other answer doesn't compute.

Until Labour stop taking political donations and freebies from corporations and other lobby groups, there's no hope of them ever being Labour again.

They're just red Tories.

That's the sort of attitude they have to overcome.

Labour need to be electable in Westminster to recover in Scotland

Yeah. I said that on the first page. It's just that I can't see them winning at Westminster any time soon, not unless they adopt many Tory policies, at which point who in Scotland would then vote for them? It's a conundrum right enough.

Fair enough, I thought the numbers would be lower. Follow on question though, what does that prove? Because UK-wide if you want to take your definition of basically anyone that's not a Tory or associated type is SD then 55-70odd percent of people vote that way.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/717004/general-elections-vote-share-by-party-uk/

He also makes a good point, what was actually untrue about anything he said?

Strangely enough the one with the English constituency didn’t get the “wrong accent/ wrong birthplace” abuse that the current Scottish labour leader gets north of the border.

Let's not forget all the abuse the Scots in the Labour government were getting south of the border and still do.

Until Labour stop taking political donations and freebies from corporations and other lobby groups

Careful how you handle those stones. Wouldn't want anyone thinking you were throwing them in that house of yours.

Something something fare regulation something something Souter...

I have never heard of leonard getting abuse for an english accent indeed I didn't realise he had one ( I have a tin ear for accents). Its ceretainly on a fringe position

Several insults thrown at me and a complete distortion of other issues. plus a load of whataboutery

Because UK-wide if you want to take your definition of basically anyone that’s not a Tory or associated type is SD then 55-70odd percent of people vote that way.

In the UK labour, snp, lib dems and greens clearly follow a social democratic path. Have the tories ( with their fellow travelers ukip) ever fallen below 30% in england?

Threre is a clear political differnce in voting patterns between scotland and england

squirrelking
Careful how you handle those stones. Wouldn’t want anyone thinking you were throwing them in that house of yours.

Something something fare regulation something something Souter…

I vote for whoever offers independence. There's plenty that smells about the SNP.

Democracy suffers every time a politician or political party takes money or services from outside sources. It's also stupid because then you get the result Labour now has in Scotland.

It should be criminal to do so.

Several insults thrown at me

I didn't know being called an Englishman was an insult to those who are English.

Could you explain?

with their fellow travelers ukip

UKIP was such a successful flash in the pan (where are they now?) because they managed to tap into something that plenty of formerly "social democratic" voting people cared about. Their last powerbase was Wales, that well known conservative heartland.....